K3 LINE Out mixes KRX3 and main output?

[Leigh L. Klotz Jr WA5ZNU]

Is it possible to control whether the sub rx goes to the line out or not?
It seems that both main and sub rx are always going to line out; I guess
they're on left/right channels?
If not, I guess I need to make a cable to cut out one channel so I don't
see both with my mono sound card line input.
Leigh/WA5ZNU
K3#51, K2#3121, KX1#712


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[Iain MacDonnell - N6ML-2]

Leigh L. Klotz, Jr WA5ZNU wrote:
> Is it possible to control whether the sub rx goes to the line out or not?
> It seems that both main and sub rx are always going to line out; I guess
> they're on left/right channels?
> If not, I guess I need to make a cable to cut out one channel so I don't
> see both with my mono sound card line input.

That doesn't quite make sense. If your line-in is really mono, the right
channel would not be connected to anything. Are you sure it's not the
software you're using that's mixing the two channels together ?

Also check your audio recording volume control settings (assuming this
is on Windoze) - maybe you're recording the "Mono Mix" instead of
"Line In" ?

     ~Iain
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[Leigh L. Klotz Jr WA5ZNU]

Sorry for the confusion on the sound card side:  It's a stereo input,
but I don't get software control of the balance or independent gain.
It's not on Windows.  The Griffin iMic device specs say stereo, but the
driver appears to be supporting only mono gain controls.

If I go to LIN OUT menu and tapping button 1 to get =PHONES then I can
use the audio gain controls to control the mix, but if I use NOR mode
LIN OUT then it's always mixed.  Probably easiest for me to make a cable
than (a) fix the driver or (b) ask for firmware changes.

Leigh/WA5ZNU

> Leigh L. Klotz, Jr WA5ZNU wrote:
>  
>> Is it possible to control whether the sub rx goes to the line out or not?
>> It seems that both main and sub rx are always going to line out; I guess
>> they're on left/right channels?
>> If not, I guess I need to make a cable to cut out one channel so I don't
>> see both with my mono sound card line input.
>>    
>
> That doesn't quite make sense. If your line-in is really mono, the right
> channel would not be connected to anything. Are you sure it's not the
> software you're using that's mixing the two channels together ?
>
> Also check your audio recording volume control settings (assuming this
> is on Windoze) - maybe you're recording the "Mono Mix" instead of
> "Line In" ?
>
>      ~Iain
> _______________________________________________
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> Post to: [hidden email]
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>  

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[Greg - AB7R]

When the SUB is turned on the Line Out audio is Main=left and Sub=Right.

-------------------------
73,
Greg - AB7R
Whidbey Island WA
NA-065


On Fri Jan 30 11:12 , Iain MacDonnell - N6ML  sent:

>
>
>Leigh L. Klotz, Jr WA5ZNU wrote:
>> Is it possible to control whether the sub rx goes to the line out or not?
>> It seems that both main and sub rx are always going to line out; I guess
>> they're on left/right channels?
>> If not, I guess I need to make a cable to cut out one channel so I don't
>> see both with my mono sound card line input.
>
>That doesn't quite make sense. If your line-in is really mono, the right
>channel would not be connected to anything. Are you sure it's not the
>software you're using that's mixing the two channels together ?
>
>Also check your audio recording volume control settings (assuming this
>is on Windoze) - maybe you're recording the "Mono Mix" instead of
>"Line In" ?
>
>     ~Iain
>_______________________________________________
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>Post to: [hidden email]
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[Iain MacDonnell - N6ML-2]

I think the right place to fix it would be in whatever software is
using the captured audio - the driver is OK, but the software needs to
let you select channels you want.

In lieu of that, an adapter cable makes sense...

     ~Iain



Leigh L. Klotz, Jr WA5ZNU wrote:

> Sorry for the confusion on the sound card side:  It's a stereo input,
> but I don't get software control of the balance or independent gain.
> It's not on Windows.  The Griffin iMic device specs say stereo, but the
> driver appears to be supporting only mono gain controls.
>
> If I go to LIN OUT menu and tapping button 1 to get =PHONES then I can
> use the audio gain controls to control the mix, but if I use NOR mode
> LIN OUT then it's always mixed.  Probably easiest for me to make a cable
> than (a) fix the driver or (b) ask for firmware changes.
>
> Leigh/WA5ZNU
>> Leigh L. Klotz, Jr WA5ZNU wrote:
>>  
>>> Is it possible to control whether the sub rx goes to the line out or
>>> not?
>>> It seems that both main and sub rx are always going to line out; I
>>> guess they're on left/right channels?
>>> If not, I guess I need to make a cable to cut out one channel so I
>>> don't see both with my mono sound card line input.
>>>    
>>
>> That doesn't quite make sense. If your line-in is really mono, the right
>> channel would not be connected to anything. Are you sure it's not the
>> software you're using that's mixing the two channels together ?
>>
>> Also check your audio recording volume control settings (assuming this
>> is on Windoze) - maybe you're recording the "Mono Mix" instead of
>> "Line In" ?
>>
>>      ~Iain
>> _______________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Post to: [hidden email]
>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>>  http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft   
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>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>  
>

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[Leigh L. Klotz Jr WA5ZNU]

I took a quick look at it and I think I need to capture 2x the data and
discard half of it in order to get just one channel out of the sound device.
So I think fixing it in hardware makes more sense...
Leigh/WA5ZNU

> I think the right place to fix it would be in whatever software is
> using the captured audio - the driver is OK, but the software needs to
> let you select channels you want.
>
> In lieu of that, an adapter cable makes sense...
>
>      ~Iain
>
>
>
> Leigh L. Klotz, Jr WA5ZNU wrote:
>  
>> Sorry for the confusion on the sound card side:  It's a stereo input,
>> but I don't get software control of the balance or independent gain.
>> It's not on Windows.  The Griffin iMic device specs say stereo, but the
>> driver appears to be supporting only mono gain controls.
>>
>> If I go to LIN OUT menu and tapping button 1 to get =PHONES then I can
>> use the audio gain controls to control the mix, but if I use NOR mode
>> LIN OUT then it's always mixed.  Probably easiest for me to make a cable
>> than (a) fix the driver or (b) ask for firmware changes.
>>
>> Leigh/WA5ZNU
>>    
>>> Leigh L. Klotz, Jr WA5ZNU wrote:
>>>  
>>>      
>>>> Is it possible to control whether the sub rx goes to the line out or
>>>> not?
>>>> It seems that both main and sub rx are always going to line out; I
>>>> guess they're on left/right channels?
>>>> If not, I guess I need to make a cable to cut out one channel so I
>>>> don't see both with my mono sound card line input.
>>>>    
>>>>        
>>>

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[Leigh L. Klotz Jr WA5ZNU]

Yes, so my request would be to be able to mute one of them.
Using a cable to connect only left is the best solution if the rig can't
mute one.
It doubles the data transfer to capture both sound channels and discard one.
I agree though it's not that high priority.
Leigh/WA5ZNU

> When the SUB is turned on the Line Out audio is Main=left and Sub=Right.
>
> -------------------------
> 73,
> Greg - AB7R
> Whidbey Island WA
> NA-065
>
>
> On Fri Jan 30 11:12 , Iain MacDonnell - N6ML  sent:
>
>  
>> Leigh L. Klotz, Jr WA5ZNU wrote:
>>    
>>> Is it possible to control whether the sub rx goes to the line out or not?
>>> It seems that both main and sub rx are always going to line out; I guess
>>> they're on left/right channels?
>>> If not, I guess I need to make a cable to cut out one channel so I don't
>>> see both with my mono sound card line input.
>>>      
>> That doesn't quite make sense. If your line-in is really mono, the right
>> channel would not be connected to anything. Are you sure it's not the
>> software you're using that's mixing the two channels together ?
>>
>> Also check your audio recording volume control settings (assuming this
>> is on Windoze) - maybe you're recording the "Mono Mix" instead of
>> "Line In" ?
>>
>>     ~Iain
>> _______________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Post to: [hidden email]
>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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>>
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>>    
>
>
>  

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[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

> It doubles the data transfer to capture both sound channels
> and discard one.

Why would you bother to capture both?  Your software should
be able to select left, right or mixed input from the soundcard.
Even relatively basic USB sound codecs provide control over the
input configuration.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Leigh
> L. Klotz, Jr WA5ZNU
> Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 1:24 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: Elecraft Reflector
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 LINE Out mixes KRX3 and main output?
>
>
> Yes, so my request would be to be able to mute one of them.
> Using a cable to connect only left is the best solution if
> the rig can't
> mute one.
> It doubles the data transfer to capture both sound channels
> and discard one. I agree though it's not that high priority.
> Leigh/WA5ZNU
> > When the SUB is turned on the Line Out audio is Main=left and
> > Sub=Right.
> >
> > -------------------------
> > 73,
> > Greg - AB7R
> > Whidbey Island WA
> > NA-065
> >
> >
> > On Fri Jan 30 11:12 , Iain MacDonnell - N6ML  sent:
> >
> >  
> >> Leigh L. Klotz, Jr WA5ZNU wrote:
> >>    
> >>> Is it possible to control whether the sub rx goes to the
> line out or
> >>> not? It seems that both main and sub rx are always going to line
> >>> out; I guess they're on left/right channels? If not, I
> guess I need
> >>> to make a cable to cut out one channel so I don't see
> both with my
> >>> mono sound card line input.
> >>>      
> >> That doesn't quite make sense. If your line-in is really mono, the
> >> right channel would not be connected to anything. Are you
> sure it's
> >> not the software you're using that's mixing the two
> channels together
> >> ?
> >>
> >> Also check your audio recording volume control settings (assuming
> >> this is on Windoze) - maybe you're recording the "Mono
> Mix" instead
> >> of "Line In" ?
> >>
> >>     ~Iain
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Post to: [hidden email]
> >> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> >> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> >> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft   
> >>
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> >>    
> >
> >
> >  
>
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[Leigh L. Klotz Jr WA5ZNU]

Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>> It doubles the data transfer to capture both sound channels
>> and discard one.
>>    
>
> Why would you bother to capture both?  Your software should
> be able to select left, right or mixed input from the soundcard.
>  

Hmmm...I'm looking at the multi-platform PortAudio v19 API here:
http://www.portaudio.com/docs/v19-doxydocs/structPaStreamParameters.html

Currently, we're using PaStreamParameters::channelCount=1, which doesn't
offer the opportunity to specify a left or right.
With channelCount=2, we could of course get two channels and discard
one, as I mentioned.

PulseAudio, which is Linux only, doesn't seem to support it either, but
I believe ALSA and OSS do.

So, if we use a Linux only solution it's possible to specify
single-channel capture without discarding one channel, but for the
cross-platform APIs, it doesn't seem possible. I know you know more
about sound device manufacture than I do, so maybe you can point us at
something we've overlooked in PortAudio, so at least we could get
portable sound capture support for single-channel input.
> Even relatively basic USB sound codecs provide control over the
> input configuration.
>  
For the device in question, Griffin iMic, this doesn't seem to be the
case. It does not separate enumerations for independently setting left
and right input gain. It does support stereo input, just not two
mic/line gain controls. This seems to be the case on Linux (see
http://seehuhn.de/pages/imic ) as well as Vista. On Vista, it's even
worse, and won't capture in stereo at all.

Leigh/WA5ZNU


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[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

> For the device in question, Griffin iMic, this doesn't seem to be the
> case. It does not separate enumerations for independently setting left
> and right input gain. It does support stereo input, just not two
> mic/line gain controls.

I don't know about the iMic - Chen would though.  We've been using
TI and Micronas USB sound devices that are directly supported by the
native "Windows Audio."  The TI devices do not have an input mixer -
sounds a lot like the iMic - but they still provide two channels of
receive audio and an application can hook either channel or force
the driver into mixed mono.  

I've used both the TI and Micronas based devices in stereo (separate
left/right) for dual receive or right only (sub RX only) with MMTY,
MMVARI, and MixW.  Unfortunately, I see the issue with FLdigi ... it
uses mixed mono with either the TI or Micronas CODECs.  I can handle
that by turning down the input level to the CODECS (manual gain
controls) but that still does not permit dual receive.   Interestingly,
DM780 handles both the TS and Micronas in left channel (Main RX) only.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leigh L. Klotz, Jr WA5ZNU [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 7:51 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 LINE Out mixes KRX3 and main output?
>
>
> Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> >> It doubles the data transfer to capture both sound channels
> >> and discard one.
> >>    
> >
> > Why would you bother to capture both?  Your software should
> > be able to select left, right or mixed input from the soundcard.
> >  
>
> Hmmm...I'm looking at the multi-platform PortAudio v19 API here:
> http://www.portaudio.com/docs/v19-doxydocs/structPaStreamParam

eters.html

Currently, we're using PaStreamParameters::channelCount=1, which doesn't
offer the opportunity to specify a left or right.
With channelCount=2, we could of course get two channels and discard
one, as I mentioned.

PulseAudio, which is Linux only, doesn't seem to support it either, but
I believe ALSA and OSS do.

So, if we use a Linux only solution it's possible to specify
single-channel capture without discarding one channel, but for the
cross-platform APIs, it doesn't seem possible. I know you know more
about sound device manufacture than I do, so maybe you can point us at
something we've overlooked in PortAudio, so at least we could get
portable sound capture support for single-channel input.
> Even relatively basic USB sound codecs provide control over the
> input configuration.
>  
For the device in question, Griffin iMic, this doesn't seem to be the
case. It does not separate enumerations for independently setting left
and right input gain. It does support stereo input, just not two
mic/line gain controls. This seems to be the case on Linux (see
http://seehuhn.de/pages/imic ) as well as Vista. On Vista, it's even
worse, and won't capture in stereo at all.

Leigh/WA5ZNU


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[Kok Chen]

On Jan 31, 2009, at 9:16 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>> For the device in question, Griffin iMic, this doesn't seem to be the
>> case. It does not separate enumerations for independently setting  
>> left
>> and right input gain. It does support stereo input, just not two
>> mic/line gain controls.
>
> I don't know about the iMic - Chen would though.

It depends on the generation of the Griffin Technology iMic.

I have three generations of iMic, dating back from more than 5 years  
ago.  The are the grey disk shaped ones, not the current-generation  
white ones.

The oldest one had a 20 bit input codec, with no digital attenuator,  
no left, no right, no Master.

The next generation is also 20 bits, but it has independent left and  
right attenuators (as seen from Core Audio -- I don't use Port Audio),  
but no master attenuator.

Both of the above have 20 bit codecs in them, but uses the USB Audio  
Interface class and you can only see 16 bits (they don't need special  
drivers, but you also don't see 20 bits, HI).

After that (and I believe it is true with the white bodied ones) they  
went to a 16 bit codec.  Mine (still a gray body) only has a master  
level control but no individual left and right controls.

If you are using Mac OS X, the easiest thing is to launch the Audio  
MIDI Setup utility that is in /Applications/Utilities.  Audio MIDI  
Setup also uses Core Audio.  There are three slider associated with  
each sound card's "volume," a Master slider, and channels 1 (left) and  
2 (right).  If a control is not available, it will be grayed out.

The microKeyer II, for example, has the Master control grayed out but  
the left and right channels are independently adjustable.  My  
digiKeyer uses the Burr-Brown PCM2902; when using Core Audio, there is  
no master, left nor right controls.

73
Chen, W7AY

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[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

> The microKeyer II, for example, has the Master control grayed
> out but the left and right channels are independently adjustable.  

Correct, microKEYER II uses the Micronas UAC2556B codec which has
independent left and right attenuators for the line input.  Some
operating system drivers show them as independent controls while
some map them as a gain/balance pair.  The Micronas also has a
single channel (left channel in the USB data stream) mic input.

> My digiKeyer uses the Burr-Brown PCM2902; when using Core Audio,
> there is no master, left nor right controls.

All DigiKeyers use the TI (Burr-Brown) PCM2902 CODEC.  The TI has
a single dual channel audio input.  There are no electronic level
controls on the input (chip design).  I'm not aware of on-chip
attenuators on any of the TI/BB USB products.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV
 
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kok Chen [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 12:40 AM
> To: Elecraft Reflector
> Cc: Leigh L. Klotz, Jr WA5ZNU; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 LINE Out mixes KRX3 and main output?
>
>
>
> On Jan 31, 2009, at 9:16 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> >> For the device in question, Griffin iMic, this doesn't
> seem to be the
> >> case. It does not separate enumerations for independently setting
> >> left
> >> and right input gain. It does support stereo input, just not two
> >> mic/line gain controls.
> >
> > I don't know about the iMic - Chen would though.
>
> It depends on the generation of the Griffin Technology iMic.
>
> I have three generations of iMic, dating back from more than 5 years  
> ago.  The are the grey disk shaped ones, not the current-generation  
> white ones.
>
> The oldest one had a 20 bit input codec, with no digital attenuator,  
> no left, no right, no Master.
>
> The next generation is also 20 bits, but it has independent left and  
> right attenuators (as seen from Core Audio -- I don't use
> Port Audio),  
> but no master attenuator.
>
> Both of the above have 20 bit codecs in them, but uses the USB Audio  
> Interface class and you can only see 16 bits (they don't need
> special  
> drivers, but you also don't see 20 bits, HI).
>
> After that (and I believe it is true with the white bodied
> ones) they  
> went to a 16 bit codec.  Mine (still a gray body) only has a master  
> level control but no individual left and right controls.
>
> If you are using Mac OS X, the easiest thing is to launch the Audio  
> MIDI Setup utility that is in /Applications/Utilities.  Audio MIDI  
> Setup also uses Core Audio.  There are three slider associated with  
> each sound card's "volume," a Master slider, and channels 1
> (left) and  
> 2 (right).  If a control is not available, it will be grayed out.
>
> The microKeyer II, for example, has the Master control grayed
> out but  
> the left and right channels are independently adjustable.  My  
> digiKeyer uses the Burr-Brown PCM2902; when using Core Audio,
> there is  
> no master, left nor right controls.
>
> 73
> Chen, W7AY
>

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