[K3] Logging programs and internal keyer

[Carl Clawson]

Are there any contest logging programs out that support the internal keyer
on the K3? This seems the ideal way to go, just one more serial command that
has to be coded to go to the radio. Otherwise you either:

1) Have the computer generate the CW and waggle some lines to the radio.
This is problematic because no modern operating system has deterministic
timing. You never know when the OS will decide to go do something else for a
while, and you get choppy code if you're unlucky. You also need a circuit to
key from the parallel port, or use DTR/CTS on serial, which is OK until you
reboot your computer and it keys up your radio. Plus, AFAICT you can get
paddle inputs only via a parallel port. (Seems like a serial port could take
paddle input on DSR & RTS, but I don't recall ever seeing that. Probably
because you'd need to add in both + and - power supplies. The advantage of
the parallel port is that you can set a pin to +5 V to power your paddle
input circuit.)

2) Buy an external box like WinKey to interface to the rig. Why spend money
on that? It's only doing stuff that the rig already does!

So, any support out there? I'm considering moving to a new logging program
and hoping to mothball the special cables and lash-ups that I've been using,
and get more consistent code too. Plus, I won't need to plug and unplug
paddles and things when I work offline from the logging program.

Thanks!
73, Carl WS7L

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[Simon (HB9DRV)]

1) There is no problem writing a Windows program with accurate timing to key
your radio via a serial or parallel port, this is a common misconception.

2) Winkeyer is an excellent device which can be more closely controlled than
driving a radio via the KY command, even Kenwood's TS-480.

The KY command is OK and does work.

I suggest 2) if your logging program of choice supports it. A quick touch of
the paddles and you're in charge of the sending instead of the Winkeyer,
also the Winkeyer has many configuration options such as Farnsworth. I don't
send much CW but have programmed both options.

Simon Brown, HB9DRV

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Carl Clawson" <[hidden email]>

> Are there any contest logging programs out that support the internal keyer
> on the K3? This seems the ideal way to go, just one more serial command
> that
> has to be coded to go to the radio. Otherwise you either:
>

[chop]

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[WILLIS COOKE]

Carl, WinKeyer does something else.  It takes ASCII
from the computer and converts that to code.  No
program can do that very well if that program runs on
a computer that has a Windoze operating system because
Windows has its own priorities for interrupts.  The
logging programs did the conversion to cw nicely when
the computers were running DOS.  To interface with a
Windows computer requires some hardware and software
to be added.  It could be internal to the transceiver
of course if it were an offered feature, but most
transceivers do not offer that.

I do not yet have a K3, so I am not sure what it
offers.  My order went in December 27 and so far, no
Katiegram for me.  But I do have a WinKeyer for my
TS-850 along with the built in keyer in the 850.

Cookie, K5EWJ


Co
--- Carl Clawson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Are there any contest logging programs out that
> support the internal keyer
> on the K3? This seems the ideal way to go, just one
> more serial command that
> has to be coded to go to the radio. Otherwise you
> either:
>
> 1) Have the computer generate the CW and waggle some
> lines to the radio.
> This is problematic because no modern operating
> system has deterministic
> timing. You never know when the OS will decide to go
> do something else for a
> while, and you get choppy code if you're unlucky.
> You also need a circuit to
> key from the parallel port, or use DTR/CTS on
> serial, which is OK until you
> reboot your computer and it keys up your radio.
> Plus, AFAICT you can get
> paddle inputs only via a parallel port. (Seems like
> a serial port could take
> paddle input on DSR & RTS, but I don't recall ever
> seeing that. Probably
> because you'd need to add in both + and - power
> supplies. The advantage of
> the parallel port is that you can set a pin to +5 V
> to power your paddle
> input circuit.)
>
> 2) Buy an external box like WinKey to interface to
> the rig. Why spend money
> on that? It's only doing stuff that the rig already
> does!
>
> So, any support out there? I'm considering moving to
> a new logging program
> and hoping to mothball the special cables and
> lash-ups that I've been using,
> and get more consistent code too. Plus, I won't need
> to plug and unplug
> paddles and things when I work offline from the
> logging program.
>
> Thanks!
> 73, Carl WS7L
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1464 -
> Release Date: 5/24/2008
> 8:56 AM
>  
>
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>

Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ
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[Joe Subich, W4TV-3]

> Are there any contest logging programs out that support the
> internal keyer on the K3? This seems the ideal way to go,
> just one more serial command that has to be coded to go to
> the radio.

None of the three most commonly used contest logging programs
support the KY command.  All three authors/developer groups
have investigated the KY command and rejected supporting it.
The issues are: 1) KY is not universally supported - it is
only useful with K2, K3 and some Kenwood transceivers.  2)
once a message has been sent to the radio it is not possible
to edit it (call corrections).  3) buffer management is very
difficult - it is not possible for the logging program to know
when a message has completed in order to implement timed delays
(or repeating messages) with a known time between the end of the
message and start of the repeat.

> 2) Buy an external box like WinKey to interface to the rig.
> Why spend money on that? It's only doing stuff that the rig
> already does!

WinKey is by far the most flexible and programmer friendly
solution available.  It is "universal" in that it can be
applied to any radio.  It generates CW with very tight timing
and it provides very good handles for the programmer to
integrate it with his software (including buffer management,
editing and status tools).

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Carl Clawson
> Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 4:10 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] [K3] Logging programs and internal keyer
>
>
> Are there any contest logging programs out that support the
> internal keyer on the K3? This seems the ideal way to go,
> just one more serial command that has to be coded to go to
> the radio. Otherwise you either:
>
> 1) Have the computer generate the CW and waggle some lines to
> the radio. This is problematic because no modern operating
> system has deterministic timing. You never know when the OS
> will decide to go do something else for a while, and you get
> choppy code if you're unlucky. You also need a circuit to key
> from the parallel port, or use DTR/CTS on serial, which is OK
> until you reboot your computer and it keys up your radio.
> Plus, AFAICT you can get paddle inputs only via a parallel
> port. (Seems like a serial port could take paddle input on
> DSR & RTS, but I don't recall ever seeing that. Probably
> because you'd need to add in both + and - power supplies. The
> advantage of the parallel port is that you can set a pin to
> +5 V to power your paddle input circuit.)
>
> 2) Buy an external box like WinKey to interface to the rig.
> Why spend money on that? It's only doing stuff that the rig
> already does!
>
> So, any support out there? I'm considering moving to a new
> logging program and hoping to mothball the special cables and
> lash-ups that I've been using, and get more consistent code
> too. Plus, I won't need to plug and unplug paddles and things
> when I work offline from the logging program.
>
> Thanks!
> 73, Carl WS7L
>

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[Carl Clawson]

Choppy or interrupted CW is a common complaint with software keyers in
logging progams. I have observed it myself. Maybe you can get around the
timing issue in Windows by writing it into a device driver (is that what
you're suggesting?) but apparently few people do it that way.

-- Carl

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Simon
> Brown (HB9DRV)
> Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 1:21 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Logging programs and internal keyer
>
> 1) There is no problem writing a Windows program with
> accurate timing to key your radio via a serial or parallel
> port, this is a common misconception.
>

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Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1464 - Release Date: 5/24/2008
8:56 AM
 

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[Carl Clawson]

I've had several off-list responses about this telling me pretty much the
same thing:

The "KY" command that sends text to the internal keyer has been looked at
and deemed insufficient to support the demands of high performance contest
software. Too much latency on the serial bus, no way to sync up with message
completion, no way to edit messages once they've gone down the bus.

(Having dealt with a few RS232 buses in my day, I agree they can be a major
pain in the anatomy when you need to operate a device in a fast,
deterministic, reliable way.)

Well, I don't mind buying an accessory if it improves performance but dang!
I'd like to have all that hardware in one box!

73 & thanks for all the answers,
Carl WS7L

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Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1464 - Release Date: 5/24/2008
8:56 AM
 

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[David Woolley (E.L)]

Carl Clawson wrote:
>
> 1) Have the computer generate the CW and waggle some lines to the radio.
> This is problematic because no modern operating system has deterministic
> timing. You never know when the OS will decide to go do something else for a]

I think you mean consumer operating system for PCs, but even that is not
entirely true.

Whilst MS-DOS, as long as you restrict the TSRs, behaves more like an
I/O library than an operating system and therefore it easy to control
the timing, there are special operating systems around, intended for
embedded systems, which do have tightly controlled real time responses.

Even Windows has real time priorities, that have absolute priority over
normal programs, and there are real time extensions to Linux.  On Linux,
writing a custom device driver is also easy, as long as you are happy
writing state machine type code.

One of the key applications for domestic consumer Windows is multimedia
and Windows has a special multi-media timers mode that gives it a timing
resolution of 1ms.  I'd suspect there are lot of people who would claim
that they could detect a misplaced note.  A lot of Linux systems also
run the clock at 1kHz.  If you are in the sort of single user single
application environment that you get with MS-DOS, Linux allows you to
busy idle and read the time to microsecond, or better accuracy.

The remaining problems are interrupt latency and inappropriate hardware
interfaces.  Windows and Linux can overrun clock interrupts at 1kHz,
particularly if you use IDE drives without enabling DMA.  The solution
is to be careful with how you configure device drivers and to avoid
actively using problem drivers.  By inappropriate devices, I
particularly mean USB.

Another possible own goal would be using programming languages that are
designed for use by semi-skilled programmers in non-realtime
environments.  These can often go into a garbage collection phase, where
they compact their internal memory usage, which can take some time.
That tends to include all languages called "Basic".  .NET and Java also
suffer from this problem, even though Java and C# tend to be associated
with more skilled programmers.  If you want good real time performance,
you need to use the lower level languages that are common in open source
software, but disliked by most programming managers, because they
require more skilled staff.


> while, and you get choppy code if you're unlucky. You also need a circuit to
> key from the parallel port, or use DTR/CTS on serial, which is OK until you
> reboot your computer and it keys up your radio. Plus, AFAICT you can get
> paddle inputs only via a parallel port. (Seems like a serial port could take

A lot more people can use a keyboard at over 40 wpm than can use a
paddle at those speeds!  Paddle input isn't going to be a priority.

> paddle input on DSR & RTS, but I don't recall ever seeing that. Probably
> because you'd need to add in both + and - power supplies. The advantage of
> the parallel port is that you can set a pin to +5 V to power your paddle
> input circuit.)

As it's not a priority, you wouldn't expect many choices.  However,
stealing supply voltages from RS232C outputs is no problem.


--
David Woolley
"The Elecraft list is a forum for the discussion of topics related to
Elecraft products and more general topics related ham radio"
List Guidelines <http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm>
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[Julian, G4ILO]

Joe Subich, W4TV-3 wrote

None of the three most commonly used contest logging programs
support the KY command.  All three authors/developer groups
have investigated the KY command and rejected supporting it.
The issues are: 1) KY is not universally supported - it is
only useful with K2, K3 and some Kenwood transceivers.  2)
once a message has been sent to the radio it is not possible
to edit it (call corrections).  3) buffer management is very
difficult - it is not possible for the logging program to know
when a message has completed in order to implement timed delays
(or repeating messages) with a known time between the end of the
message and start of the repeat.

Although 1) is true, I'm surprised 2) is a big deal for contesting, when you are only sending very short "overs". In the K2, it is possible to abort the unsent text by sending a "KY @;" command. I'm not sure if Wayne has implenented this in the K3 yet.

3) is completely incorrect as far as the K2 and K3 goes. It is possible to poll the radio and find out if the buffer is full, part full or empty. In fact it is essential to do this as the K2 doesn't like being sent text its buffer doesn't have room for.

[Joe Subich, W4TV-3]

> I'm surprised 2) is a big deal for
> contesting, when you are only sending very short "overs".

Calls are corrected on a regular basis and many of the contest
software authors are adamant about the ability to change anything
that has not yet been sent,

> In
> the K2, it is possible to abort the unsent text by sending a
> "KY @;" command. I'm not sure if Wayne has implenented this
> in the K3 yet.

That works only on the K2 - at least according to the TS-2000
manual.  In addition it involves a complete buffer flush and
resend of any unsent information.  Since the KY command does
not update the controlling program when each character is sent,
it becomes impossible for the application to know what has been
sent and is thus no longer available for editing ... or what
must be resent in event of the buffer dump.

> 3) is completely incorrect as far as the K2 and K3 goes. It
> is possible to poll the radio and find out if the buffer is
> full, part full or empty

First, this involves polling which increases programming overhead.
Second, according to the TS-480, 570 and 2000 manuals the Kenwood
implementation does not indicate when the buffer is empty - only
if the buffer is full.

The whole point is that the cost to implement KY support is much
greater that the benefit given its limited capability and support.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of G4ILO
> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 11:05 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] [K3] Logging programs and internal keyer
>
>
>
>
> Joe Subich, W4TV-3 wrote:
> >
> >
> > None of the three most commonly used contest logging programs
> > support the KY command.  All three authors/developer groups
> > have investigated the KY command and rejected supporting it.
> > The issues are: 1) KY is not universally supported - it is
> > only useful with K2, K3 and some Kenwood transceivers.  2)
> > once a message has been sent to the radio it is not possible
> > to edit it (call corrections).  3) buffer management is very
> > difficult - it is not possible for the logging program to know
> > when a message has completed in order to implement timed delays
> > (or repeating messages) with a known time between the end of the
> > message and start of the repeat.
> >
> >
> Although 1) is true, I'm surprised 2) is a big deal for
> contesting, when you are only sending very short "overs". In
> the K2, it is possible to abort the unsent text by sending a
> "KY @;" command. I'm not sure if Wayne has implenented this
> in the K3 yet.
>
> 3) is completely incorrect as far as the K2 and K3 goes. It
> is possible to poll the radio and find out if the buffer is
> full, part full or empty. In fact it is essential to do this
> as the K2 doesn't like being sent text its buffer doesn't
> have room for.
>
> -----
> Julian, G4ILO  K3 s/n: 222 K2 s/n: 392
> G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
> Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf
> --

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[.hank.]

Carl Clawson wrote

>Are there any contest logging programs out that support the internal keyer
>on the K3?

Not really.


>1) Have the computer generate the CW and waggle some lines to the radio.


This works quite well with CTwin, N1MM and WriteLog.  The parallel port will
"waggle" the keying line and send CW.  
If the operator wants to send manually you can plug a paddle into the K3 and
send.  Or with CTwin you can wire the paddle into the parallel port.  (REAL
parallel port - not a USB to parallel cable).
But ..... and here is the catch ..... you have to use a small program called
Direct I/O.  It's free for 30 days and then <gasp> you have to pay for it - but
it works quite well with NT, Win2k and XP.  I don't know about Vista.
And you should stop all un-necessary things from running on the PC unless it
is a fast one with lots of memory.
Or ..... you could run Win 98SE and you don't need the program to capture the
parallel port!
 
>2) Buy an external box like WinKey to interface to the rig. Why spend money
>on that? It's only doing stuff that the rig already does!

Ah, true ..... it does a lot that the rig already does, but it does it better than
the stuff that the rig already does.  Much better!

73    Hank    K8DD

[Jim Brown-10]

On Sat, 24 May 2008 13:10:10 -0700, Carl Clawson wrote:

>Are there any contest logging programs out that support the
>internal keyer on the K3?

N1MM works perfectly on pin 4 of a serial cable connected to a real
serial port on my Thinkpad T22, with my paddle plugged into the K3.
What could be simpler?  WriteLog also works unless something in your
computer is getting in the way. I've used both for years with
several radios (K2/100, TS850, IC746, FT1000MP, Omni V.9), on
Thinkpads running W2K Pro and XP Pro. No glitches.

73,

Jim K9YC



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[Carl Clawson]

Thanks again to all who responded on- and off-line to this subject.

Two things I learned here: There are external keyers that provide superb support for high performance contest software, but also, great software can indeed produce great CW over serial or parallel ports without the extra hardware. The lower-performing programs don’t because they use loops, timers, or other task-dependent features to send the CW.

One of my objectives is to minimize the number of cables and boxes on my desktop. If it could be made to work right, DTR/CTS keying would do the job. Here are the problems, though. First, it keys your radio when the computer reboots. This is a deal breaker for me. I’m too scatterbrained to remember to disable it when I’m not using it. Second, there’s no feedback from the radio to the software. When you touch a paddle or key, you want the software to stop sending. So two improvements are needed to make this work great: 1. An RS232 command to enable/disable DTR keying so that it’s enabled only when your contest program is running. 2. An auto-info response that sends an event to the computer when a key or paddle is touched. Then if we can get the software authors to implement it, and keep the internal keyer at the same speed as the software, I think this would work very neatly. Plug your key into the rig, the rig into the computer, and off you go.

Thanks for listening!
Carl WS7L
K3 #486

[John Frerichs]

After messing around with some 56/560 pF caps that were installed in opposite places I now have a fully functional K2/10 CW rig on my desk.  I'm listening to the wonderful sounds of CW on 20m with it.  This radio rocks!
   
  Many thanks to those that responded to my question about the 80m/17m problem.  They went way beyond the call of duty to help me.
   
  -- John
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