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K3 - Maximum CW speed from manual key

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Kurt Theis

K3 - Maximum CW speed from manual key

Greetings list!

I searched the archives and other sources, but haven't found an answer, so
I'll try here.
I'm looking to find the maximum cw speed on my K3 (with new oscillators,
serial 8xxx)
when using a manual cw key plugged into the KEY jack on the back of the
radio.

I don't mean the internal keyer, or memories. I'm not using QSK, so that
won't be an issue. The K3 is put into TX mode via an external TX switch,
and keyed via the KEY jack.

I'm hoping for speeds in excess of 300 WPM. Possible?

--
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David Bunte

Re: K3 - Maximum CW speed from manual key

Kurt -

300 wpm is so far beyond any speed I am aware of a human copying that I
never gave that issue any thought... and few folks I know can send good CW
above 40 ish wpm with a hand key, so I doubt if many folks have given that
any thought. I will be interested to see what answers you get... and am
curious as to why you want to know? Just curious or do you have a need to
do that kind of speed with a hand key?

Dave - K9FN

On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 10:04 AM Kurt Theis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Greetings list!
>
> I searched the archives and other sources, but haven't found an answer, so
> I'll try here.
> I'm looking to find the maximum cw speed on my K3 (with new oscillators,
> serial 8xxx)
> when using a manual cw key plugged into the KEY jack on the back of the
> radio.
>
> I don't mean the internal keyer, or memories. I'm not using QSK, so that
> won't be an issue. The K3 is put into TX mode via an external TX switch,
> and keyed via the KEY jack.
>
> I'm hoping for speeds in excess of 300 WPM. Possible?
>
> --
> [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Michael Dinkelman

Re: K3 - Maximum CW speed from manual key

I designed a memory keyer in the mid-80's. Had a ridiculous speed range.
Found out the
meteor scatter folks were buying them. They would program a memory at
normal speed,
ramp the speed up, and use it for short bursts on CW during a meteor
operation. Receiver would
record it on tape, slow it down to decode. I expect that is all done by
computer these days. :>)

cheers
dink, n7wa

On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 9:05 AM David Bunte <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Kurt -
>
> 300 wpm is so far beyond any speed I am aware of a human copying that I
> never gave that issue any thought... and few folks I know can send good CW
> above 40 ish wpm with a hand key, so I doubt if many folks have given that
> any thought. I will be interested to see what answers you get... and am
> curious as to why you want to know? Just curious or do you have a need to
> do that kind of speed with a hand key?
>
> Dave - K9FN
>
> On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 10:04 AM Kurt Theis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Greetings list!
> >
> > I searched the archives and other sources, but haven't found an answer,
> so
> > I'll try here.
> > I'm looking to find the maximum cw speed on my K3 (with new oscillators,
> > serial 8xxx)
> > when using a manual cw key plugged into the KEY jack on the back of the
> > radio.
> >
> > I don't mean the internal keyer, or memories. I'm not using QSK, so that
> > won't be an issue. The K3 is put into TX mode via an external TX switch,
> > and keyed via the KEY jack.
> >
> > I'm hoping for speeds in excess of 300 WPM. Possible?
> >
> > --
> > [hidden email]
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

David Gilbert-2

Re: K3 - Maximum CW speed from manual key

In reply to this post by Kurt Theis

I don't see that as being realistic. Per the normal definition of a
Morse "word" being the word "paris", 300 wpm means each dit would be no
longer than 4 msec. As best I can recall, the rise and fall of the K3
keying waveform are each around 2.5 msec. I'm not at all an expert, but
I suspect most digital signal processing techniques would find that hard
to differentiate.

73,
Dave AB7E

On 2/6/2021 8:01 AM, Kurt Theis wrote:

Kurt Theis

Re: K3 - Maximum CW speed from manual key

In reply to this post by David Bunte

Dave -

In this case the "key" is a transistor circuit and the the result is
decoded electronically.

We want to know if a K3 is capable of being used with a burst encoder. I'm
not in front of my K3 right now or I'd try it myself.

Kurt

On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 12:02 PM David Bunte <[hidden email]> wrote:

Kurt Theis
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Charlie T, K3ICH

Re: K3 - Maximum CW speed from manual key

In reply to this post by David Gilbert-2

I remember working at Microlog Inc (The OLD one in Gaithersburg MD that made RTTY/CW video terminals) in the 80's.
No rigs at the time would function efficiently with on/off keying at that speed, so we were experimenting with 300 WPM CW sent using the normal RTTY method of 170Hz shift FSK.
It worked like a charm and our CW reader would copy perfectly at that speed too.
Just about everyone in the company was a ham from the pres. on down, so we played around with it on 2 meter FM using AFSK tones into the mike jack until something new came along.
Other than just to see if it WOULD work, nothing more was ever done with it.

73, Charlie k3ICH

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Gilbert
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2021 1:04 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Maximum CW speed from manual key

I don't see that as being realistic. Per the normal definition of a Morse "word" being the word "paris", 300 wpm means each dit would be no longer than 4 msec. As best I can recall, the rise and fall of the K3 keying waveform are each around 2.5 msec. I'm not at all an expert, but I suspect most digital signal processing techniques would find that hard to differentiate.

73,
Dave AB7E

On 2/6/2021 8:01 AM, Kurt Theis wrote:

> Greetings list!
>
> I searched the archives and other sources, but haven't found an
> answer, so I'll try here.
> I'm looking to find the maximum cw speed on my K3 (with new
> oscillators, serial 8xxx) when using a manual cw key plugged into the
> KEY jack on the back of the radio.
>
> I don't mean the internal keyer, or memories. I'm not using QSK, so
> that won't be an issue. The K3 is put into TX mode via an external TX
> switch, and keyed via the KEY jack.
>
> I'm hoping for speeds in excess of 300 WPM. Possible?
>

______________________________________________________________
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Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Elecraft mailing list

Re: K3 - Maximum CW speed from manual key

In reply to this post by Kurt Theis

Wes Stewart-2

Re: K3 - Maximum CW speed from manual key

In reply to this post by Michael Dinkelman

I've heard rumors of that but I have 38 states confirmed on two-meters (from the
depths of southern AZ), mostly on ear-copy MS. I never encountered anyone
offering or asking to use that method.

I was forced into leaving weak-signal work for a number of years following a
domestic upheaval in the 1980s and when I got back years later, it was all
digital modes, and I declined to participate. So no 2-meter WAS for me.

Wes N7WS

On 2/6/2021 10:58 AM, Michael Dinkelman wrote:

> I designed a memory keyer in the mid-80's. Had a ridiculous speed range.
> Found out the
> meteor scatter folks were buying them. They would program a memory at
> normal speed,
> ramp the speed up, and use it for short bursts on CW during a meteor
> operation. Receiver would
> record it on tape, slow it down to decode. I expect that is all done by
> computer these days. :>)
>
> cheers
> dink, n7wa
>

Bill Frantz

Re: K3 - Maximum CW speed from manual key

In reply to this post by Kurt Theis

To try to make sense of this experiment, I immediately assumed
that Kurt wouldn't be using a hand key, but rather a device that
interfaced to the radio through the KEY jack. Obviously an
electronic switch could switch the key jack that fast, but I'm
not sure about a relay.

The other question that occurs to me is, "How wide will the
resulting signal be?"

73 Bill AE6JV

On 2/6/21 at 12:02 PM, [hidden email] (David Bunte) wrote:

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Jim Brown-10

Re: K3 - Maximum CW speed from manual key

In reply to this post by Michael Dinkelman

On 2/6/2021 9:58 AM, Michael Dinkelman wrote:
> I expect that is all done by computer these days.

Yes, MS is done with one of K1JT's protocols than encodes the elements
of the QSO in a form that fits in a hundred msec or so, transmits it
repeatedly for a defined period (15, 30, or 60 seconds). When enough
rocks have come by for computers on both sides of the QSO to complete
the QSO, it goes into the log.

73, Jim K9YC

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Re: K3 - Maximum CW speed from manual key

In reply to this post by Charlie T, K3ICH

Funny how things move around: back in 1914-15 they could do 300wpm on spark transmitters and regularly worked 200wpm with 15kW stations up and down the west coast USA. It wasn't said as such but we know it as FSK. Machine to machine. Plus ca change...

David G3UNA

> On 06 February 2021 at 18:11 Charlie T <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> I remember working at Microlog Inc (The OLD one in Gaithersburg MD that made RTTY/CW video terminals) in the 80's.
> No rigs at the time would function efficiently with on/off keying at that speed, so we were experimenting with 300 WPM CW sent using the normal RTTY method of 170Hz shift FSK.
> It worked like a charm and our CW reader would copy perfectly at that speed too.
> Just about everyone in the company was a ham from the pres. on down, so we played around with it on 2 meter FM using AFSK tones into the mike jack until something new came along.
> Other than just to see if it WOULD work, nothing more was ever done with it.
>
> 73, Charlie k3ICH
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Gilbert
> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2021 1:04 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Maximum CW speed from manual key
>
>
> I don't see that as being realistic. Per the normal definition of a Morse "word" being the word "paris", 300 wpm means each dit would be no longer than 4 msec. As best I can recall, the rise and fall of the K3 keying waveform are each around 2.5 msec. I'm not at all an expert, but I suspect most digital signal processing techniques would find that hard to differentiate.
>
> 73,
> Dave AB7E
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2/6/2021 8:01 AM, Kurt Theis wrote:
> > Greetings list!
> >
> > I searched the archives and other sources, but haven't found an
> > answer, so I'll try here.
> > I'm looking to find the maximum cw speed on my K3 (with new
> > oscillators, serial 8xxx) when using a manual cw key plugged into the
> > KEY jack on the back of the radio.
> >
> > I don't mean the internal keyer, or memories. I'm not using QSK, so
> > that won't be an issue. The K3 is put into TX mode via an external TX
> > switch, and keyed via the KEY jack.
> >
> > I'm hoping for speeds in excess of 300 WPM. Possible?
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Wes Stewart-2

Re: K3 - Maximum CW speed from manual key

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

SNOTEL has been doing something similar for 50 years.

Wes N7WS

On 2/6/2021 9:15 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> On 2/6/2021 9:58 AM, Michael Dinkelman wrote:
>> I expect that is all done by computer these days.
>
> Yes, MS is done with one of K1JT's protocols than encodes the elements of the
> QSO in a form that fits in a hundred msec or so, transmits it repeatedly for a
> defined period (15, 30, or 60 seconds). When enough rocks have come by for
> computers on both sides of the QSO to complete the QSO, it goes into the log.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC

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