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[K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks

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Bob K6UJ

Re: [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks

I agree 100%

Bob
K6UJ

On Sep 14, 2012, at 9:38 AM, David Gilbert wrote:

>
> Why?? Elecraft uses a pretty effective waveform shaping algorithm in
> the K3 that produces almost no key clicks just the way it is with a
> short rise/fall time (about 2.5 msec if I remember correctly). What
> would be gained by increasing it, and why would you want people to be
> able to mess with something that works as well as it does? I'm euphoric
> that Elecraft doesn't allow it to be adjusted.
>
> Dave AB7E
>
>
>
> On 9/14/2012 1:10 AM, Jan Erik Holm wrote:
>> I would like to see the CW Rise/Fall time adjustable to a higher value
>> then 5ms. Sure beats me why Elecraft can´t allow this.
>>
>> 73 Jim SM2EKM
>>
>
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Jan Erik Holm-2

Re: [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

On 2012-09-14 18:38, David Gilbert wrote:

Jan Erik Holm-2

Re: [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

On 2012-09-14 18:33, David Gilbert wrote:

>
> I don't doubt that at all, but to be bluntly honest, if you have first
> hand knowledge of such cases why don't you publicly identify them???
> Hams are their own worst enemy by keeping silent about known cheating
> and general bad behavior. In my opinion, the person who does not speak
> out becomes a sideline enabler.
>
> So much for amateur radio being a self-policing hobby ...
>
> Dave AB7E
>
>
>
> On 9/14/2012 1:23 AM, Jan Erik Holm wrote:
>> >
>> Nothing new under the sun. It´s been around for decades. There are even
>> contest stations that puts their amplifiers in class C on SSB and I´m
>> not talking about small amps but things in the 5 - 10 kW region.
>>
>> / Jim SM2EKM
>>

gm3sek

Re: [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

> I don't scan the bands
>looking for bad signals because I spend my time contesting instead, but
>I always jot down the callsigns of the really bad signals I find and I
>highlight the worst of them in my 3830 report. I've seen others do the
>same, although it would certainly help if everyone did.
>
>Dave AB7E
>
But we still need objective evidence, to justify action being taken.

For this and many other reasons, it really would help is if we could
*quickly* dump high-resolution screen grabs out of the P3SVGA's USB
port, onto a memory stick for example.

(A simple system-generated filename with a time stamp would be enough to
identify the image for consideration later, without interrupting our own
operating.)

Part of that same signal analysis package would be a much faster
waterfall for improved time resolution.

These features were kind-of on Alan's list, but they need some momentum.

--

73 from Ian GM3SEK
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek
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Jim Brown-10

Re: [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks

In reply to this post by Jan Erik Holm-2

On 9/14/2012 12:02 PM, Jan Erik Holm wrote:
> So if I don´t report those guys I´m as bad as they are. Jeez, are you
>
> serious?

When I was part of the American Civil Rights Movement many years ago, we
learned that if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the
problem. Yes, I am QUITE serious.

73, Jim K9YC
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Gary Ferdinand

Re: [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks

In reply to this post by Jan Erik Holm-2

My DEL key is being profusely pounded of late... :-)

>So if I don´t report those guys I´m as bad as they are. Jeez, are you
>serious?
>Oh don´t answer it, I guess you are.
>/Jim SM2EKM

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David Gilbert

Re: [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks

In reply to this post by Jan Erik Holm-2

I only said "almost no clicks" because I don't believe in absolutes.
Please identify what level (in db referenced to the main carrier within
some defined bandwidth) you believe clicks are generated by the K3 and
describe how you measured it. I would be very interested in that
information.

Dave AB7E

On 9/14/2012 11:58 AM, Jan Erik Holm wrote:

> On 2012-09-14 18:38, David Gilbert wrote:
>> Why?? Elecraft uses a pretty effective waveform shaping algorithm in
>> the K3 that produces almost no key clicks just the way it is with a
>> short rise/fall time (about 2.5 msec if I remember correctly). What
>> would be gained by increasing it, and why would you want people to be
>> able to mess with something that works as well as it does? I'm euphoric
>> that Elecraft doesn't allow it to be adjusted.
>>
>> Dave AB7E
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/14/2012 1:10 AM, Jan Erik Holm wrote:
>>> I would like to see the CW Rise/Fall time adjustable to a higher value
>>> then 5ms. Sure beats me why Elecraft can´t allow this.
>>>
>>> 73 Jim SM2EKM
>>>
> Be course the K3 is not click free. You did say it yourself "quote: K3
> that produces almost no key clicks just the way it is"
> If it´s ever possible I would like to have no key clicks at all, and
> this can be done.
> /Jim SM2EKM
>
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David Gilbert

Re: [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks

In reply to this post by Jan Erik Holm-2

Yeah ... pretty much.

At the very least, if you aren't willing to publicly identify them you
don't have much right publicly complaining about them because yes ...
you are helping to make sure they have no reason to stop.

Dave AB7E

On 9/14/2012 12:02 PM, Jan Erik Holm wrote:
> So if I don´t report those guys I´m as bad as they are. Jeez, are you
> serious?

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David Gilbert

Re: [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks

In reply to this post by gm3sek

True. As I said in another post, I'd love to see someone write an SDR
application that captured and quantified such things, but in the absence
of that screenshots from a scrolling spectrum display (waterfall) would
help. The problem is that you lose the amplitude information when you
use the waterfall that is necessary to establish the time correlation
between center frequency and spurious crap. With a normal spectrum
analyzer that shows amplitude you can't see the correlation in a screenshot.

Maybe it's possible to display a 3D spectrum display! ;)

73,
Dave AB7E

On 9/14/2012 12:32 PM, Ian White GM3SEK wrote:

>> I don't scan the bands
>> looking for bad signals because I spend my time contesting instead, but
>> I always jot down the callsigns of the really bad signals I find and I
>> highlight the worst of them in my 3830 report. I've seen others do the
>> same, although it would certainly help if everyone did.
>>
>> Dave AB7E
>>
> But we still need objective evidence, to justify action being taken.
>
> For this and many other reasons, it really would help is if we could
> *quickly* dump high-resolution screen grabs out of the P3SVGA's USB
> port, onto a memory stick for example.
>
> (A simple system-generated filename with a time stamp would be enough to
> identify the image for consideration later, without interrupting our own
> operating.)
>
> Part of that same signal analysis package would be a much faster
> waterfall for improved time resolution.
>
> These features were kind-of on Alan's list, but they need some momentum.
>
>

Jan Erik Holm-2

Re: [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

On 2012-09-14 21:34, Jim Brown wrote:

> On 9/14/2012 12:02 PM, Jan Erik Holm wrote:
>> So if I don´t report those guys I´m as bad as they are. Jeez, are you
>>
>> serious?
>
> When I was part of the American Civil Rights Movement many years ago, we
> learned that if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the
> problem. Yes, I am QUITE serious.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC

>
K9YC why did you but in to this. It was for AB7E.

/ Jim SM2EKM

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Rod Greene W7ZRC

Re: [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks

It's time for this thread to end - what say moderator?

Rod/w7zrc

> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 22:42:01 +0200
> From: [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
>
> On 2012-09-14 21:34, Jim Brown wrote:
> > On 9/14/2012 12:02 PM, Jan Erik Holm wrote:
> >> So if I don´t report those guys I´m as bad as they are. Jeez, are you
> >>
> >> serious?
> >
> > When I was part of the American Civil Rights Movement many years ago, we
> > learned that if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the
> > problem. Yes, I am QUITE serious.
> >
> > 73, Jim K9YC
> >
> K9YC why did you but in to this. It was for AB7E.
>
> / Jim SM2EKM
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks

Administrator

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

Let's end this thread (regarding policing of on air tx signals etc) now in the interest of reducing list noise level.

73,
Eric
Elecraft List Moderator
www.elecraft.com
_..._

On Sep 14, 2012, at 1:32 PM, David Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> True. As I said in another post, I'd love to see someone write an SDR
> application that captured and quantified such things, but in the absence
> of that screenshots from a scrolling spectrum display (waterfall) would
> help. The problem is that you lose the amplitude information when you
> use the waterfall that is necessary to establish the time correlation
> between center frequency and spurious crap. With a normal spectrum
> analyzer that shows amplitude you can't see the correlation in a screenshot.
>
> Maybe it's possible to display a 3D spectrum display! ;)
>
> 73,
> Dave AB7E
>
>
>
>
> On 9/14/2012 12:32 PM, Ian White GM3SEK wrote:
>>> I don't scan the bands
>>> looking for bad signals because I spend my time contesting instead, but
>>> I always jot down the callsigns of the really bad signals I find and I
>>> highlight the worst of them in my 3830 report. I've seen others do the
>>> same, although it would certainly help if everyone did.
>>>
>>> Dave AB7E
>>>
>> But we still need objective evidence, to justify action being taken.
>>
>> For this and many other reasons, it really would help is if we could
>> *quickly* dump high-resolution screen grabs out of the P3SVGA's USB
>> port, onto a memory stick for example.
>>
>> (A simple system-generated filename with a time stamp would be enough to
>> identify the image for consideration later, without interrupting our own
>> operating.)
>>
>> Part of that same signal analysis package would be a much faster
>> waterfall for improved time resolution.
>>
>> These features were kind-of on Alan's list, but they need some momentum.
>>
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>
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Jan Erik Holm-2

Re: [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

On 2012-09-14 22:21, David Gilbert wrote:
>
> I only said "almost no clicks" because I don't believe in absolutes.
>
OK then I know where you stand.
>
> Please identify what level (in db referenced to the main carrier within
> some defined bandwidth) you believe clicks are generated by the K3 and
>
I don´t believe! I can hear the clicks in my K3!!!
>
> describe how you measured it. I would be very interested in that
> information.
>
No need to measure. They can be heard!
>
> Dave AB7E
>
/Jim SM2EKM
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks

In reply to this post by Jan Erik Holm-2

Unfortunately in this litigious society, "calling out" someone for
outrageous behavior like intentionally generating key-clicks or "wide"
modulation can leave one exposed to lawsuits for defamation and/or
slander.

Without automatically generated, objective and unassailable data, I
sure would not want to be naming specific "big gun" stations we all
know are engaged in the such practices. It's far easier and safer to
condemn the practice general that allow the argument to become a
personal battle.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> On 2012-09-14 21:34, Jim Brown wrote:
>>
>> When I was part of the American Civil Rights Movement many years ago, we
>> learned that if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the
>> problem. Yes, I am QUITE serious.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>
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Gary Gregory

Re: [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks

In reply to this post by Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

*AND mouse clicks...:-)

73
*
On 15 September 2012 06:46, Eric Swartz WA6HHQ - Elecraft <[hidden email]
> wrote:

> Let's end this thread (regarding policing of on air tx signals etc) now in
> the interest of reducing list noise level.
>
> 73,
> Eric
> Elecraft List Moderator
> www.elecraft.com
> _..._
>
>
>
> On Sep 14, 2012, at 1:32 PM, David Gilbert <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > True. As I said in another post, I'd love to see someone write an SDR
> > application that captured and quantified such things, but in the absence
> > of that screenshots from a scrolling spectrum display (waterfall) would
> > help. The problem is that you lose the amplitude information when you
> > use the waterfall that is necessary to establish the time correlation
> > between center frequency and spurious crap. With a normal spectrum
> > analyzer that shows amplitude you can't see the correlation in a
> screenshot.
> >
> > Maybe it's possible to display a 3D spectrum display! ;)
> >
> > 73,
> > Dave AB7E
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 9/14/2012 12:32 PM, Ian White GM3SEK wrote:
> >>> I don't scan the bands
> >>> looking for bad signals because I spend my time contesting instead, but
> >>> I always jot down the callsigns of the really bad signals I find and I
> >>> highlight the worst of them in my 3830 report. I've seen others do the
> >>> same, although it would certainly help if everyone did.
> >>>
> >>> Dave AB7E
> >>>
> >> But we still need objective evidence, to justify action being taken.
> >>
> >> For this and many other reasons, it really would help is if we could
> >> *quickly* dump high-resolution screen grabs out of the P3SVGA's USB
> >> port, onto a memory stick for example.
> >>
> >> (A simple system-generated filename with a time stamp would be enough to
> >> identify the image for consideration later, without interrupting our own
> >> operating.)
> >>
> >> Part of that same signal analysis package would be a much faster
> >> waterfall for improved time resolution.
> >>
> >> These features were kind-of on Alan's list, but they need some momentum.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

--
*Gary*
*Start the day off slow, then taper off.........*
K3 #679
KPA500FT #18
KAT500FT 007
P3 #1629
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Jan Erik Holm-2

Re: [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks

In reply to this post by Jan Erik Holm-2

On 2012-09-14 22:15, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> Key clicks are CW modulation sidebands. Key click management is about having
> CW sidebands that occupy a reasonable amount of the spectrum, not
> eliminating them entirely. Eliminating clicks (the sidebands) is easily done
> - just don't key the signal. But then you can't send CW.
>
> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
Yes I know this Ron. You are quite right.
You haven´t got this at all. I´m not talking about modulating
anything.
I know for a fact that transmitters can be keyed without producing
key clicks that can be detected in a receiver using 250Hz bandwith
with steep filters and tuning just outside that passband. Still the
keyed CW signal is "hard" enough to be perfectly readable even if
it´s weak. Clicks from a K3 can be heard approx 500Hz out from the
passband null, in other words it is not click free.
Now, the rise/fall time on a K3 is approx 5ms and the CW signal is
quite hard (almost ringing) when listening to it. This is just fine
from a communication standpoint but the price we pay are "mild key
clicks".
I have a feeling, if we just could increase the rise/fall to 6 or 7ms
the K3 would be click free or more or less click free. IMO it´s a
shame we can´t do this.

/ Jim SM2EKM

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gm3sek

Re: [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

David Gilbert wrote:

>
>True. As I said in another post, I'd love to see someone write an SDR
>application that captured and quantified such things, but in the
>absence of that screenshots from a scrolling spectrum display
>(waterfall) would help. The problem is that you lose the amplitude
>information when you use the waterfall that is necessary to establish
>the time correlation between center frequency and spurious crap. With
>a normal spectrum analyzer that shows amplitude you can't see the
>correlation in a screenshot.
>
>Maybe it's possible to display a 3D spectrum display! ;)
>

It isn't necessary to measure or quantify key-clicks and splatter. For
the purposes we are discussing here, the only requirement is to show
that a signal is notably worse than others of similar strength nearby.

A SVGA waterfall display with a good amplitude-sensitive color palette
and faster scrolling can show up these defects very clearly indeed.
Those features are standard in most PC-based SDR software, but have not
yet been implemented in the P3SVGA firmware.

The other requirement, as already noted, is to capture the image quickly
and easily from the P3SVGA for future use.

--

73 from Ian GM3SEK
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek
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vk4tux

Re: [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks

In reply to this post by Jan Erik Holm-2

Well said Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jan Erik Holm
Sent: Saturday, 15 September 2012 4:59 AM
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks

On 2012-09-14 18:38, David Gilbert wrote:

Be course the K3 is not click free. You did say it yourself "quote: K3 that
produces almost no key clicks just the way it is"
If it´s ever possible I would like to have no key clicks at all, and this
can be done.
/Jim SM2EKM

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vk4tux

Re: [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks

In reply to this post by Jan Erik Holm-2

The thing is Jim, if you are being relevant or not irrelevant, it is not
necessarily the same thing.

Certain eyes find that you are not in agreement , using a same meaning
response
and will accuse you of not being able to read properly, because you have
used a negative inverse of
another's word meaning agreement.

Rather than waste DXcluster space and set of alarms unnecessarily, or not
necessarily.
why not confront the dirty keyclicker click to click & face to face n let em
have it rather than
waste Cluster bandwidth.

Very good point you make Jim.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jan Erik Holm
Sent: Saturday, 15 September 2012 5:02 AM
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks

On 2012-09-14 18:33, David Gilbert wrote:

>
> I don't doubt that at all, but to be bluntly honest, if you have first
> hand knowledge of such cases why don't you publicly identify them???
> Hams are their own worst enemy by keeping silent about known cheating
> and general bad behavior. In my opinion, the person who does not speak
> out becomes a sideline enabler.
>
> So much for amateur radio being a self-policing hobby ...
>
> Dave AB7E
>
>
>
> On 9/14/2012 1:23 AM, Jan Erik Holm wrote:
>> >
>> Nothing new under the sun. It´s been around for decades. There are
>> even contest stations that puts their amplifiers in class C on SSB
>> and I´m not talking about small amps but things in the 5 - 10 kW region.
>>
>> / Jim SM2EKM
>>

So if I don´t report those guys I´m as bad as they are. Jeez, are you
serious?
Oh don´t answer it, I guess you are.
/Jim SM2EKM

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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks

Administrator

FOLKS,

This thread was closed earlier today. Please take the discussion and arguments off list.

73,
Eric
Elecraft List Manager, Really!
www.elecraft.com
_..._

On Sep 14, 2012, at 2:39 PM, "Adrian" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The thing is Jim, if you are being relevant or not irrelevant, it is not
> necessarily the same thing.
>
> Certain eyes find that you are not in agreement , using a same meaning
> response
> and will accuse you of not being able to read properly, because you have
> used a negative inverse of
> another's word meaning agreement.
>
> Rather than waste DXcluster space and set of alarms unnecessarily, or not
> necessarily.
> why not confront the dirty keyclicker click to click & face to face n let em
> have it rather than
> waste Cluster bandwidth.
>
> Very good point you make Jim.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jan Erik Holm
> Sent: Saturday, 15 September 2012 5:02 AM
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Phase Noise / CW Key Clicks
>
> On 2012-09-14 18:33, David Gilbert wrote:
>>
>> I don't doubt that at all, but to be bluntly honest, if you have first
>> hand knowledge of such cases why don't you publicly identify them???
>> Hams are their own worst enemy by keeping silent about known cheating
>> and general bad behavior. In my opinion, the person who does not speak
>> out becomes a sideline enabler.
>>
>> So much for amateur radio being a self-policing hobby ...
>>
>> Dave AB7E
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/14/2012 1:23 AM, Jan Erik Holm wrote:
>>>>
>>> Nothing new under the sun. It´s been around for decades. There are
>>> even contest stations that puts their amplifiers in class C on SSB
>>> and I´m not talking about small amps but things in the 5 - 10 kW region.
>>>
>>> / Jim SM2EKM
>>>
> So if I don´t report those guys I´m as bad as they are. Jeez, are you
> serious?
> Oh don´t answer it, I guess you are.
> /Jim SM2EKM
>
>
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