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K3 - RTTY Question

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RLVZ

K3 - RTTY Question

This weekend I used my K-3 on RTTY for the first time. Using the K-3's
AFSK-A mode along with N1MM & MMTTY.

I quickly noticed that I was off frequency by differing amounts on each
band and seldom would anyone come back to me when I called them. So I called
CQ myself and waited for people to call me and then went tuning to see
what freq. they were on. To tune callers in on 20-meters it usually required
an RIT setting of +0.10 while on 40-meters they usually called in with RIT
at -0.10 ... seemed to be a little different on each band.

Question: Is there a way prior to operating, to setup the K-3 so the
transmitted RTTY is on freq. on each band?

By the way, when I did get the K-3 on frequency is worked greatll!

Thanks & 73,

Dick- K9OM

N1MM shows PSK mode on top of the logging window when the K3
> is in Data A mode but seems to transmit RTTY OK.

Depends on what you have set in the "Mode Control" tab of
the N1MM Logger configuration dialog. I generally set
RTTY to RTTY for FSK and set PSK to PSK (DATA A) for PSK.

If you want to use AFSK for RTTY, I would set RTTY to AFSK
and use AFSK A as the data mode in the K3.

The only way the data mode matters to N1MM Logger is what
it records in the log. If you set N1MM to record contest
mode, it won't care what the radio mode is.

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Dave Hachadorian

Re: K3 - RTTY Question

The MMTTY TX tones and RX filters must be offset. Make sure AFC,
NET, and ATC are turned off in MMTTY. Make sure the K3 PITCH
matches the MMTTY Mark frequency.

Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, AZ

--------------------------------------------------
From: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 11:43 AM
To: <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 - RTTY Question

> This weekend I used my K-3 on RTTY for the first time. Using
> the K-3's
> AFSK-A mode along with N1MM & MMTTY.
>
> I quickly noticed that I was off frequency by differing amounts
> on each
> band and seldom would anyone come back to me when I called
> them. So I called
> CQ myself and waited for people to call me and then went tuning
> to see
> what freq. they were on. To tune callers in on 20-meters it
> usually required
> an RIT setting of +0.10 while on 40-meters they usually called
> in with RIT
> at -0.10 ... seemed to be a little different on each band.
>
> Question: Is there a way prior to operating, to setup the K-3
> so the
> transmitted RTTY is on freq. on each band?
>
> By the way, when I did get the K-3 on frequency is worked
> greatll!
>
> Thanks & 73,
>
> Dick- K9OM
>
>
> N1MM shows PSK mode on top of the logging window when the K3
>> is in Data A mode but seems to transmit RTTY OK.
>
> Depends on what you have set in the "Mode Control" tab of
> the N1MM Logger configuration dialog. I generally set
> RTTY to RTTY for FSK and set PSK to PSK (DATA A) for PSK.
>
> If you want to use AFSK for RTTY, I would set RTTY to AFSK
> and use AFSK A as the data mode in the K3.
>
> The only way the data mode matters to N1MM Logger is what
> it records in the log. If you set N1MM to record contest
> mode, it won't care what the radio mode is.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 - RTTY Question

In reply to this post by RLVZ

Dick,

When using AFSK A, you must set the mark frequency in MMTTY and that in
the K3 to the same value.
I believe the K3 keeps that information on a per band basis, so make
certain you set it on all bands. The per band basis is why you saw
different offsets on various bands.

73,
Don W3FPR

[hidden email] wrote:

> This weekend I used my K-3 on RTTY for the first time. Using the K-3's
> AFSK-A mode along with N1MM & MMTTY.
>
> I quickly noticed that I was off frequency by differing amounts on each
> band and seldom would anyone come back to me when I called them. So I called
> CQ myself and waited for people to call me and then went tuning to see
> what freq. they were on. To tune callers in on 20-meters it usually required
> an RIT setting of +0.10 while on 40-meters they usually called in with RIT
> at -0.10 ... seemed to be a little different on each band.
>
> Question: Is there a way prior to operating, to setup the K-3 so the
> transmitted RTTY is on freq. on each band?
>
> By the way, when I did get the K-3 on frequency is worked greatll!
>
> Thanks & 73,
>
> Dick- K9OM
>
>
> N1MM shows PSK mode on top of the logging window when the K3
>
>

Richard Ferch

Re: K3 - RTTY Question

In reply to this post by RLVZ

Dick,

I believe that both the cause and the solution to your problems lies in
MMTTY, not in the K3.

Did you have NET on in MMTTY? I suspect that if you turn NET on, that
will solve your problem. NET forces MMTTY to use the same frequency on
transmit as on receive. If you don't have NET on, MMTTY transmits on the
HAM frequency regardless of what audio frequency it is receiving on.

Also, did you have AFC on in MMTTY? That could have been the cause of
your problem. AFC allows the receive frequency to be pulled off the
optimum pitch and if you don't have NET on, AFC will cause your TX and
RX frequencies to be different.

For that matter, if you tune by clicking in MMTTY's waterfall, that will
also separate your TX and RX frequencies. When you are S&Ping in AFSK,
you should always have NET on unless you are very careful never to let
AFC or mouse-clicking change your receive frequency. N1MM's Align button
can also be helpful here; after you tune by clicking in the waterfall,
if you click on Align it will retune your radio so the signal you just
clicked on is now on your HAM frequency.

When you are CQing, turning AFC on and NET off allows you to copy
off-frequency callers without retuning. At the end of a QSO with an
off-frequency caller you should click on MMTTY's HAM button to realign
your RX frequency with your TX frequency.

N1MM Logger has options to turn NET on and AFC off in S&P mode and vice
versa in running mode.

73,
Rich VE3KI

K9OM wrote:

chen dave

Re: K3 - RTTY Question

In reply to this post by RLVZ

Hi Dick,
Did you set the correct filter shift freqency in menu? I guess you use
2.7KHz SSB filter
during RTTY transmit.

73 de ba4rf,David

2010/3/1 <[hidden email]>

> This weekend I used my K-3 on RTTY for the first time. Using the K-3's
> AFSK-A mode along with N1MM & MMTTY.
>
> I quickly noticed that I was off frequency by differing amounts on each
> band and seldom would anyone come back to me when I called them. So I
> called
> CQ myself and waited for people to call me and then went tuning to see
> what freq. they were on. To tune callers in on 20-meters it usually
> required
> an RIT setting of +0.10 while on 40-meters they usually called in with RIT
> at -0.10 ... seemed to be a little different on each band.
>
> Question: Is there a way prior to operating, to setup the K-3 so the
> transmitted RTTY is on freq. on each band?
>
> By the way, when I did get the K-3 on frequency is worked greatll!
>
> Thanks & 73,
>
> Dick- K9OM
>
>

Jim Brown-10

Re: K3 - RTTY Question

In reply to this post by Dave Hachadorian

On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 12:00:28 -0700, Dave Hachadorian wrote:

>The MMTTY TX tones and RX filters must be offset. Make sure AFC,
>NET, and ATC are turned off in MMTTY. Make sure the K3 PITCH
>matches the MMTTY Mark frequency.

I agree with this advice, and so does W0YK, the RTTY champion. But it
DOES require that use RIT now and then for callers who are not
exactly on your frequency.

Another piece of advice. You can choose several frequencies for the
MARK tone. I like the 915 Hz choice, because it makes RTTY easier to
tune in by ear. You need to set this two places. First, in the K3,
using the PITCH control while in digital mode. Second, you need to
set it on one of the options menu pages in MMTTY as the default for
the HAM settings.

You should study the documentation for MMTTY that describes how NET,
ATC, AFC work in MMTTY. While you CAN use the program "plug and
play," there are a lot of powerful options you can take advantage of,
so you'll get more out of it by spending some time with the doc.

Also, MMTTY has some defaults that try to turn AFC and NET on and off
depending on your operating mode. Many seasoned RTTY folks think this
is a bad idea, so you'll have to disable them. Those auto settings
are on one of the setup pages for MMTTY.

73,

Jim K9YC

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Mike Reublin

Re: K3 - A different RTTY question

In reply to this post by RLVZ

I've found I copy much better without using dual passband. I have the
400Hz 8-pole filter. I'm using AFSK-A. I use MMTTY.
With DPB on, even the noise sounds a bit like a RTTY signal, and the
MMTTY shows 2 little peaks on the FFT display.
Do I have a configuration problem, or is that normal?

73, Mike NF4L

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KK7P

Re: K3 - A different RTTY question

Normal.
> With DPB on, even the noise sounds a bit like a RTTY signal, and the
> MMTTY shows 2 little peaks on the FFT display.
> Do I have a configuration problem, or is that normal?

The DPB filter creates two narrow filters centered on the RTTY tone
pair. For it to work well, you have to tune the radio very accurately.
Some RTTY contesters report that the DPB helps in difficult conditions.

If you use AFC or other receive features in the RTTY program -- anything
other than tuning the K3 precisely -- performance may suffer.

73,

Lyle KK7P
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k6dgw

Re: K3 - RTTY Question

In reply to this post by RLVZ

[hidden email] wrote:
> This weekend I used my K-3 on RTTY for the first time. Using the K-3's
> AFSK-A mode along with N1MM & MMTTY.

Hmmm ... I must be oversimplifying something:

In the K3:
1. Select DATA
2. Hold DATA MD and select A
3. Hold PITCH and set it to 915 Hz [one of the choices]
4. Set RIT on
5. Set the DSP WIDTH to about 300 Hz
6. Turn the VOX on if you aren't using PTT from the CAT.

I did this once and it held for all bands.

MMTTY:
A. If you've got the CAT hooked up, MMTTY should get the 915 Hz in
MARK. If not, set it to 915 Hz.
B. Set AFC off and leave it off [it will drive you nuts]
C. Turn NET on and leave it on [makes you transmit where you receive]
D. UOS on [if you get stuck in FIGS, the first space will unshift]
E. I use the FIR demod in MMTTY and have the tap set at 128.

N1MM Macros:
1. Start all with {TX}{ENTERLF} except the one for {WIPE} [F12 for me].
This keys the transmitter and starts you out on a new line on the
other guy's screen.

2. Except for CQ and QSL macros, end each macro with a single space and
{RX}

3. End your CQ and QSL macros with a single space followed by
{CLEARRIT}{RX}. If you used the RIT, that will clear it.

The single space assures [almost always] that the garbage that the other
guy will print when you drop your carrier is separated from the last
thing you sent by one space. Avoid {ENTER} and {ENTERLF} at the end,
they'll cause your call to march up the screen and the other guy will
have to chase it with the mouse. [Tnx K6XX]

Remember that Baudot has two cases *using the same 5-bit codes*.
Letters are in one case. Numbers and punctuation are in the other case
[SPACE, CR, and LF are in both]. N1MM macros take care of the case
shift [LTRS/FIGS] but ... if you configure your exchange macro with
punctuation such as: {TX}{ENTERLF}N6KR DE K6DGW (QSL TU) (599-CA)
(599-CA) {RX}, you're adding a lot of FIGS-LTRS pairs and increasing the
probability that your Q will get stuck in FIGS. I got an exchange in
the NAQP RTTY that looked like that.

I use 915 Hz for a couple of reasons, the biggest is that I can hear it.
I'm deaf above about 1100 Hz. Remember that RTTY is really FSK
between two RF frequencies separated by 170 Hz. That's FM, and it
produces sidebands [you can see them as as a forest of dots between the
two lines in the MMTTY I-Q display]. I find that 300 Hz is about as
narrow as I want in order to pass the sidebands. MMTTY will print
strong signals at 250 Hz or even 200 Hz, but it won't do weak noisy
ones. At 300 Hz width, the K3-MMTTY combo will print signals I can't
really hear, I can just barely see them on the waterfall.

Oh, I didn't realize it at first, but the RIT rate is linked to the main
tuning rate. I use a 1 Hz rate in S&P [since I don't ever need RIT].
If I CQ at the 1 Hz tuning rate, the RIT rate is way too slow, so when I
go to RUN mode, I tap the FINE button to a 10 Hz tuning rate.

I've also used my K2 for RTTY once I found out there is a fourth bank of
filters for RTTY. Works great!

73,

Fred K6DGW
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Dave Hachadorian

Re: K3 - A different RTTY question

In reply to this post by Mike Reublin

I have tried using the dual passband filter in FSK, and it
doesn't seem to copy any better than the flat DSP filter with 250
Hz roofer. I also can hear that slight ringing on the mark and
space frequency in the headphones with DPB. The ringing makes it
a little hard to tell in the headphones if a really weak station
is calling. I use the regular flat DSP filter now.

Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, AZ

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Mike" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 2:42 PM
To: <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - A different RTTY question

> I've found I copy much better without using dual passband. I
> have the
> 400Hz 8-pole filter. I'm using AFSK-A. I use MMTTY.
> With DPB on, even the noise sounds a bit like a RTTY signal,
> and the
> MMTTY shows 2 little peaks on the FFT display.
> Do I have a configuration problem, or is that normal?
>
> 73, Mike NF4L
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Mike Reublin

Re: K3 - A different RTTY question

In reply to this post by Mike Reublin

Thanks Lyle & Dave.
I have AFC,NET,AFC,NFL,PGA and USOC turned off in MMTTY. I'll have to
try the 250Hz roofie.

73, Mike

Mike wrote:

> I've found I copy much better without using dual passband. I have the
> 400Hz 8-pole filter. I'm using AFSK-A. I use MMTTY.
> With DPB on, even the noise sounds a bit like a RTTY signal, and the
> MMTTY shows 2 little peaks on the FFT display.
> Do I have a configuration problem, or is that normal?
>
> 73, Mike NF4L
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>

Claude Du Berger

Re: K3 - A different RTTY question

In reply to this post by Dave Hachadorian

Normally I dont need the DPB.
But when in RUN-CQ mode with QRM in the last NAQP
I was very happy to have it.

73
Claude Du Berger VE2FK
[hidden email]

http://www.contestgroupduquebec.com/
http://sites.google.com/site/va2upcontesting/Home

----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Hachadorian
To: [hidden email] ; Elecraft Reflector
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - A different RTTY question

I have tried using the dual passband filter in FSK, and it
doesn't seem to copy any better than the flat DSP filter with 250
Hz roofer. I also can hear that slight ringing on the mark and
space frequency in the headphones with DPB. The ringing makes it
a little hard to tell in the headphones if a really weak station
is calling. I use the regular flat DSP filter now.

Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, AZ

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Mike" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 2:42 PM
To: <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - A different RTTY question

> I've found I copy much better without using dual passband. I
> have the
> 400Hz 8-pole filter. I'm using AFSK-A. I use MMTTY.
> With DPB on, even the noise sounds a bit like a RTTY signal,
> and the
> MMTTY shows 2 little peaks on the FFT display.
> Do I have a configuration problem, or is that normal?
>
> 73, Mike NF4L
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Ed Muns, W0YK

Re: K3 - A different RTTY question

In reply to this post by Mike Reublin

NF4L asked:
> I've found I copy much better without using dual passband. I
> have the 400Hz 8-pole filter. I'm using AFSK-A. I use MMTTY.
> With DPB on, even the noise sounds a bit like a RTTY signal,
> and the MMTTY shows 2 little peaks on the FFT display.
> Do I have a configuration problem, or is that normal?

I've used the DTF (Dual Tone Filter) exclusively since Lyle first coded in
in early field test. It works great, just like the TPF (Twin Peak Filter)
works well in the Icom radios. The K3 implementation is different than
Icoms and for a few months before I got my second K3 I used a 756Pro3 with
the K3 in SO2R. I could not prove any superiority between the two although
I prefer the K3 implementation much more. The K3 simply puts two 50 Hz
8th-order, i.e., steep, DSP filters on the two tones. The Icom approach is
to peak the IF around the two tones. Accordingly, you need to back the Icom
RF Gain way off to a base level of about S9+15dB for it to work well.

As to your question on using DTF or not, i.e., regular DSP filter, I don't
have data to prove one is better than the other. I just haven't used the
regular DSP filter enough (actually not at all), but anecdotally I feel I
copy weak signals extremely well and can slice through big pile-ups readily.
My belief is that the DTF is superior, but perhaps not by much and probably
only in certain instances.

You do need to tune carefully with the DTF because it is effectively putting
a sharp 220 Hz filter in your IF. A wider filter allows the decoder to see
an attenuated signal and decode it when you are off-frequency a bit. Being
a long-time CW contester, it is second nature for me to use RIT, or a
receive-only VFO, constantly as needed while operating. However, by using
such a narrow RTTY filter (the DTF), it means that I don't work
off-frequency callers until the on-frequency callers have been worked out
first. Hopefully, this encourages stations to zero-beat my TX signal
carefully. ;>)

Ed - W0YK
-----------------------------------------------
Ed Muns
Muns Vineyard - www.munsvineyard.com
FaceBook - www.facebook.com/munsvineyard

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John_N1JM

Re: K3 - A different RTTY question

I use FSK D and avoid all that crap :-).

ww2r2

Re: K3 - A different RTTY question

In reply to this post by Mike Reublin

Exactly my findings at MW2I. Normally we dont use dpb as incoming signals
arrive all over the place frequency wise (in arrl rtty 2010 3 people called
over 1.5khz off!) outside the dpb passband. However it does help with really
weak signals when you have QRM

Dave

ww2r

appear >

> Message: 17
> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 17:59:38 -0500
> From: Claude Du Berger <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - A different RTTY question
> To: Dave Hachadorian <[hidden email]>, [hidden email], Elecraft
> Reflector <[hidden email]>
> Message-ID: <50CA75166B7D4AC1BCD85B0362C3F926@claude>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Normally I dont need the DPB.
> But when in RUN-CQ mode with QRM in the last NAQP
> I was very happy to have it.
>
> 73
> Claude Du Berger VE2FK
> [hidden email]

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 - A different RTTY question

Logical observations.
Like all narrow filters, they are useful if you are doing S & P and are
willing to tune carefully, but they can be too narrow for a run station
where callers may not be right at zero-beat (unless you are willing to
use RIT slowly to find them).
Dual Passband Tuning does create a quite narrow passband (a pair of them
in fact).

73,
Don W3FPR

[hidden email] wrote:

> Exactly my findings at MW2I. Normally we dont use dpb as incoming signals
> arrive all over the place frequency wise (in arrl rtty 2010 3 people called
> over 1.5khz off!) outside the dpb passband. However it does help with really
> weak signals when you have QRM
>
> Dave
>
> ww2r
>
>

Mike Reublin

Re: K3 - RTTY Question

In reply to this post by k6dgw

Fred, what is the correlation between having CAT, and the mark freq?

73, Mike NF4L

Fred Jensen wrote:
> MMTTY:
> A. If you've got the CAT hooked up, MMTTY should get the 915 Hz in
> MARK. If not, set it to 915 Hz.
>

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