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K3 Receiver mush

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w0mu

K3 Receiver mush

We noticed again during the contest hat when 3 or 4 stations called, all
those signals would be flattened to the same level. Once you got to
where one or two stations were calling the signal level would pop up
substantially.

I have played endlessly with slope and threshold with little effect.

My K3 has the new syn boards as well and filters from 2.8 to 2.5.
Latest firmware etc.

Are others still seeing this issue?

W0MU

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Guy Olinger K2AV

Re: K3 Receiver mush

Sounds like very strong signals with fast agc with its decay set well into
fast range. And if you have stations using spot frequency that will really
muddle them.

I have my fast agc set to its slowest possible decay and my slow agc set to
fastest possible decay. Then I only use the fast in heavy qrn.

73, Guy K2AV

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 9:26 AM W0MU Mike Fatchett <[hidden email]> wrote:

> We noticed again during the contest hat when 3 or 4 stations called, all
> those signals would be flattened to the same level. Once you got to
> where one or two stations were calling the signal level would pop up
> substantially.
>
> I have played endlessly with slope and threshold with little effect.
>
> My K3 has the new syn boards as well and filters from 2.8 to 2.5.
> Latest firmware etc.
>
> Are others still seeing this issue?
>
> W0MU
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>

--
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Don Wilhelm

Re: K3 Receiver mush

In reply to this post by w0mu

Mike,

Think about it - if there are multiple signals in the passband, the AGC
will respond to the strongest, there is just no way around that fact.
If the signals can be separated by the DSP, and one is really strong,
that strong station may be activating the Hardware AGC. The only
solution for the latter is a more narrow roofing filter - put the
offending strong signal out of the passband of the roofing filter and
use shift to get your sidetone for the desired signal back in order.

That may be too much "fiddling" for a run station in a contest, but it
is a viable way to operate when trying to copy a weak station working
close to a strong station.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/21/2017 9:25 AM, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote:

Ron Manfredi

K3 Memory Question

In reply to this post by Guy Olinger K2AV

I am trying to get my head around the memory set-up on the K3. Must be
missing something.
I have set memories (and config) 0-9 as band switches, and that seems to
be OK; the last frequency I used on each band is stored in memory when I
go back there, but I put the 40 meter WWV frequency into memory 11, and
now my 40 meter memory (#1) shows that frequency when I select it. How
can I save a specific frequency in memory, without having it change ?
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Don Wilhelm

Re: K3 Memory Question

What "40 meter WWV frequency" - WWV transmits on 5, 10, 15 and 20MHz.
If you want to set a memory to 10MHz WWV, you should select 30 meters,
tune to 10.000.00 and set the memory from there.

73,
W3FPR

On 2/21/2017 9:58 AM, Ron Manfredi wrote:

>
> I am trying to get my head around the memory set-up on the K3. Must be
> missing something.
> I have set memories (and config) 0-9 as band switches, and that seems to
> be OK; the last frequency I used on each band is stored in memory when I
> go back there, but I put the 40 meter WWV frequency into memory 11, and
> now my 40 meter memory (#1) shows that frequency when I select it. How
> can I save a specific frequency in memory, without having it change ?
> ______________________________________________________________
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Ron Manfredi

Re: K3 Memory Question

Ramon, Thanks for the advice. That is probably what my difficulty is; I
will check when I get back to the rig tonight.

Don, I realized after I sent the message that I meant CHU, (not WWV) but
did not want to make another post just for the correction. The basic
memory question was valid though, no matter what frequency I was talking
about.

On 2/21/2017 11:24 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> What "40 meter WWV frequency" - WWV transmits on 5, 10, 15 and 20MHz.
> If you want to set a memory to 10MHz WWV, you should select 30 meters,
> tune to 10.000.00 and set the memory from there.
>
> 73,
> W3FPR
>
> On 2/21/2017 9:58 AM, Ron Manfredi wrote:
>>
>> I am trying to get my head around the memory set-up on the K3. Must be
>> missing something.
>> I have set memories (and config) 0-9 as band switches, and that seems to
>> be OK; the last frequency I used on each band is stored in memory when I
>> go back there, but I put the 40 meter WWV frequency into memory 11, and
>> now my 40 meter memory (#1) shows that frequency when I select it. How
>> can I save a specific frequency in memory, without having it change ?
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>>
>

Charlie T, K3ICH

Re: K3 Memory Question

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

I think he might be referring to the Canadian time station CHU on 7850 kHz.
Charlie k3ICH

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Don
Wilhelm
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 11:25 AM
To: Ron Manfredi <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Memory Question

What "40 meter WWV frequency" - WWV transmits on 5, 10, 15 and 20MHz.
If you want to set a memory to 10MHz WWV, you should select 30 meters, tune
to 10.000.00 and set the memory from there.

73,
W3FPR

On 2/21/2017 9:58 AM, Ron Manfredi wrote:
>
> I am trying to get my head around the memory set-up on the K3. Must be
> missing something.
> I have set memories (and config) 0-9 as band switches, and that seems
> to be OK; the last frequency I used on each band is stored in memory
> when I go back there, but I put the 40 meter WWV frequency into memory
> 11, and now my 40 meter memory (#1) shows that frequency when I
> select it. How can I save a specific frequency in memory, without having
it change ?

> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> [hidden email]
>

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Dave Fugleberg

Re: K3 Receiver mush

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

Don, that's a great explanation. I came to the same conclusion in a recent
RTTY contest. I built my K3 with the single stock filter based on advice
from a number of folks to 'just operate for awhile til you get the feel for
what other filters you need'. I think that's sound advice.
Anyhow, I've been generally ok with the standard filter and relying on DSP
filtering to narrow it as needed. However, in the RTTY contest, I often had
issues working weaker stations when strong ones were very close by. It was
easy to see what was going on by watching the P3- I'd start copying a
signal inside the DSP bandwidth, and a strong one would pop up just above
or below that station. Even though I couldn't hear the strong station, the
weak one would go nearly silent as the AGC kicked in due to the strong
signal in the IF passband.
So, I think I've learned that I need a narrower filter for such situations.
I'm thinking a 400hz filter is what I want. Any reason for a different
selection in that scenario?
73 de W0ZF
On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 8:52 AM Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Mike,
>
> Think about it - if there are multiple signals in the passband, the AGC
> will respond to the strongest, there is just no way around that fact.
> If the signals can be separated by the DSP, and one is really strong,
> that strong station may be activating the Hardware AGC. The only
> solution for the latter is a more narrow roofing filter - put the
> offending strong signal out of the passband of the roofing filter and
> use shift to get your sidetone for the desired signal back in order.
>
> That may be too much "fiddling" for a run station in a contest, but it
> is a viable way to operate when trying to copy a weak station working
> close to a strong station.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 2/21/2017 9:25 AM, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote:
> > We noticed again during the contest hat when 3 or 4 stations called, all
> > those signals would be flattened to the same level. Once you got to
> > where one or two stations were calling the signal level would pop up
> > substantially.
> >
> > I have played endlessly with slope and threshold with little effect.
> >
> > My K3 has the new syn boards as well and filters from 2.8 to 2.5.
> > Latest firmware etc.
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Don Wilhelm

Re: K3 Receiver mush

Dave,

Yes, a 400Hz filter will work well for RTTY (and CW too).

73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/21/2017 6:27 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:

> Don, that's a great explanation. I came to the same conclusion in a
> recent RTTY contest. I built my K3 with the single stock filter based
> on advice from a number of folks to 'just operate for awhile til you
> get the feel for what other filters you need'. I think that's sound
> advice.
> Anyhow, I've been generally ok with the standard filter and relying on
> DSP filtering to narrow it as needed. However, in the RTTY contest, I
> often had issues working weaker stations when strong ones were very
> close by. It was easy to see what was going on by watching the P3- I'd
> start copying a signal inside the DSP bandwidth, and a strong one
> would pop up just above or below that station. Even though I couldn't
> hear the strong station, the weak one would go nearly silent as the
> AGC kicked in due to the strong signal in the IF passband.
> So, I think I've learned that I need a narrower filter for such
> situations. I'm thinking a 400hz filter is what I want. Any reason for
> a different selection in that scenario?
> 73 de W0ZF
> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 8:52 AM Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
> Think about it - if there are multiple signals in the passband,
> the AGC
> will respond to the strongest, there is just no way around that fact.
> If the signals can be separated by the DSP, and one is really strong,
> that strong station may be activating the Hardware AGC. The only
> solution for the latter is a more narrow roofing filter - put the
> offending strong signal out of the passband of the roofing filter and
> use shift to get your sidetone for the desired signal back in order.
>
> That may be too much "fiddling" for a run station in a contest, but it
> is a viable way to operate when trying to copy a weak station working
> close to a strong station.
>

Ken G Kopp

Re: K3 Receiver mush

I'm pretty much full time CW and rarely leave the 400 Hz filter.

73

K0PP

On Feb 21, 2017 16:52, "Don Wilhelm" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dave,

Yes, a 400Hz filter will work well for RTTY (and CW too).

73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/21/2017 6:27 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:

> Don, that's a great explanation. I came to the same conclusion in a recent
> RTTY contest. I built my K3 with the single stock filter based on advice
> from a number of folks to 'just operate for awhile til you get the feel for
> what other filters you need'. I think that's sound advice.
> Anyhow, I've been generally ok with the standard filter and relying on DSP
> filtering to narrow it as needed. However, in the RTTY contest, I often had
> issues working weaker stations when strong ones were very close by. It was
> easy to see what was going on by watching the P3- I'd start copying a
> signal inside the DSP bandwidth, and a strong one would pop up just above
> or below that station. Even though I couldn't hear the strong station, the
> weak one would go nearly silent as the AGC kicked in due to the strong
> signal in the IF passband.
> So, I think I've learned that I need a narrower filter for such
> situations. I'm thinking a 400hz filter is what I want. Any reason for a
> different selection in that scenario?
> 73 de W0ZF
> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 8:52 AM Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
> Think about it - if there are multiple signals in the passband,
> the AGC
> will respond to the strongest, there is just no way around that fact.
> If the signals can be separated by the DSP, and one is really strong,
> that strong station may be activating the Hardware AGC. The only
> solution for the latter is a more narrow roofing filter - put the
> offending strong signal out of the passband of the roofing filter and
> use shift to get your sidetone for the desired signal back in order.
>
> That may be too much "fiddling" for a run station in a contest, but it
> is a viable way to operate when trying to copy a weak station working
> close to a strong station.
>
>

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Edward A. Dauer

K3 Receiver Mush

In reply to this post by w0mu

I haven’t tried this yet specifically to see if it can outwit the AGC, but it is often useful to flip to CW reverse to get the QRMer on the other side of the skirt.

But during a contest, like this past weekend, when no-one is supposed to be operating split, I don’t know how much an S&P station can do to dig under strong callers who are spot on the target.

Ted, KN1CBR

------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 09:48:51 -0500
From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
To: W0MU Mike Fatchett <[hidden email]>, Elecraft Reflector
<[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Receiver mush
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

Mike,

Think about it - if there are multiple signals in the passband, the AGC
will respond to the strongest, there is just no way around that fact.
If the signals can be separated by the DSP, and one is really strong,
that strong station may be activating the Hardware AGC. The only
solution for the latter is a more narrow roofing filter - put the
offending strong signal out of the passband of the roofing filter and
use shift to get your sidetone for the desired signal back in order.

That may be too much "fiddling" for a run station in a contest, but it
is a viable way to operate when trying to copy a weak station working
close to a strong station.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/21/2017 9:25 AM, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote:
> We noticed again during the contest hat when 3 or 4 stations called, all
> those signals would be flattened to the same level. Once you got to
> where one or two stations were calling the signal level would pop up
> substantially.
>
> I have played endlessly with slope and threshold with little effect.
>
> My K3 has the new syn boards as well and filters from 2.8 to 2.5.
> Latest firmware etc.
>

------------------------------

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w0mu

Re: K3 Receiver mush

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

I can run with 400 or 250hz filters.

I have tried it with AGC fast, slow off etc.

I just think this is something that most people just never see. This was
a major point of discussion a while back. I guess it is just the way
the radio is. I will have to try another rig to see if I notice the
same effects.

In a pileup there is no offending station they are all calling me.

I was just curious if other contesters or DXpeditioners settings might
be and if they are still seeing this issue.

W0MU

On 2/21/2017 8:48 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Mike,
>
> Think about it - if there are multiple signals in the passband, the
> AGC will respond to the strongest, there is just no way around that fact.
> If the signals can be separated by the DSP, and one is really strong,
> that strong station may be activating the Hardware AGC. The only
> solution for the latter is a more narrow roofing filter - put the
> offending strong signal out of the passband of the roofing filter and
> use shift to get your sidetone for the desired signal back in order.
>
> That may be too much "fiddling" for a run station in a contest, but it
> is a viable way to operate when trying to copy a weak station working
> close to a strong station.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 2/21/2017 9:25 AM, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote:
>> We noticed again during the contest hat when 3 or 4 stations called, all
>> those signals would be flattened to the same level. Once you got to
>> where one or two stations were calling the signal level would pop up
>> substantially.
>>
>> I have played endlessly with slope and threshold with little effect.
>>
>> My K3 has the new syn boards as well and filters from 2.8 to 2.5.
>> Latest firmware etc.
>>

gm3sek

Re: K3 Receiver mush

Re-posting from April 2016, and earlier:

73 from Ian GM3SEK

***************

The factory default AGC THReshold for the K3 and K3S is very, very low.
Measurements by KE7X [1] have shown that the default setting of THR=5
corresponds to an AGC onset at less than S3, whereas competing rigs have
a threshold of S7 or even higher. This very low AGC threshold is what
allows the AGC to be activated by band noise.

Elecraft's factory defaults of THR=5 and SLP=12 compress all signals
above the AGC threshold into a very narrow range of audio output levels
[see the measurements by KE7X]. This makes for comfortable
broadcast-style listening - but there is price to be paid. The default
settings tend to hide the real-life differences in the strengths of
incoming signals - important differences that DXers and contesters
*need* to hear, in order to pick individual signals out of a pileup.

Following complaints from DXers, DXpeditioners and contesters about this
so-called "pileup mush", and following further series of measurements by
KE7X, Elecraft eventually did increase the available range of AGC
THReshold settings (the v4.51 firmware upgrade).

Following the release of FW v4.51, the consensus within the
[K3-contesting] Yahoo group about the most important settings for DXing
and contesting has been as follows.

* AGC THR: increase to at least 8 (from default = 5) and preferably to
12, and then take some time to become re-accustomed to the increased
range of audio levels [2]. (Some users recommend as high as 14, if your
ears can handle it.)

* AGC SLP: decrease to 8 or even less (from default = 12). Lower SLP
settings allow stronger signals to sound somewhat louder, and thus more
realistic, but the range of variation will be partly determined by the
THR setting already made; so always experiment with THR first, and with
SLP afterwards.

* AGC DCY = SOFT (not default=NOR). The User Manual claims that "The
SOFT setting can reduce IMD caused by traditional AGC, and is especially
useful in 'pileup' conditions, in some cases making it unnecessary to
turn AGC off."

The settings recommended above have essentially solved the problem of
"pileup mush" for those who have tried them... but regrettably, Elecraft
has done almost nothing to make DXers and contesters aware that such
changes are possible.

More than 3 years after the firmware release notes boasted that v4.51
"greatly improves signal clarity in pile-ups and other high-noise or
dense-signal situations, especially with threshold set to 12 or higher",
that information is *still* missing from the User Manual. There is also
no information on how to create different 'profiles' of AGC settings for
different types of users.

Meanwhile, Elecraft's factory AGC defaults remain exactly as they were,
still optimized apparently for comfortable 'listening', while many DXers
and contesters remain unaware that their K3/K3S could actually be *so*
much better.

[1] http://www.ke7x.com/home/miscellaneous-k3-information

[2] It is important to give any increased AGC THReshold setting an
extended trial. To anyone accustomed to an artificially restricted range
of audio signal levels, a higher setting will initially sound quite
'aggressive' - even though the new setting is much closer to real life.

************

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
>W0MU Mike Fatchett
>Sent: 22 February 2017 00:39
>To: Elecraft Reflector
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Receiver mush
>
>I can run with 400 or 250hz filters.
>
>I have tried it with AGC fast, slow off etc.
>
>I just think this is something that most people just never see. This

was

>a major point of discussion a while back. I guess it is just the way
>the radio is. I will have to try another rig to see if I notice the
>same effects.
>
>In a pileup there is no offending station they are all calling me.
>
>I was just curious if other contesters or DXpeditioners settings might
>be and if they are still seeing this issue.
>
>W0MU
>
>
>
>On 2/21/2017 8:48 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> Mike,
>>
>> Think about it - if there are multiple signals in the passband, the
>> AGC will respond to the strongest, there is just no way around that

fact.
>> If the signals can be separated by the DSP, and one is really strong,
>> that strong station may be activating the Hardware AGC. The only
>> solution for the latter is a more narrow roofing filter - put the
>> offending strong signal out of the passband of the roofing filter and
>> use shift to get your sidetone for the desired signal back in order.
>>
>> That may be too much "fiddling" for a run station in a contest, but
it
>> is a viable way to operate when trying to copy a weak station working
>> close to a strong station.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> On 2/21/2017 9:25 AM, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote:
>>> We noticed again during the contest hat when 3 or 4 stations called,
all
>>> those signals would be flattened to the same level. Once you got to
>>> where one or two stations were calling the signal level would pop up
>>> substantially.
>>>
>>> I have played endlessly with slope and threshold with little effect.
>>>
>>> My K3 has the new syn boards as well and filters from 2.8 to 2.5.
>>> Latest firmware etc.
>>>

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Vic Rosenthal

Re: K3 Receiver mush

I remember this, and had forgotten what I set them at. I just looked and
I see that I have SLP=003 and THR=14! That is practically no AGC at all.
In contests I sometimes turn up the SLP to protect my ears, but for
normal DXing this is what I've gotten used to and I like it.

73,
Vic, 4X6GP
Rehovot, Israel
Formerly K2VCO
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/

On 22 Feb 2017 09:42, Ian White wrote:

Arie Kleingeld PA3A-2

Re: K3 Receiver mush

Thanks Ian for bringing all the info back to the list.

My settings: slope 9, thr 12, decay soft, pls nor, hld 0.20 , agc-s 20
to 30 (depends...)

73,

Arie PA3A

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Gordon LaPoint

Re: K3 Receiver mush

In reply to this post by Dave Fugleberg

Dave,
I do lots of rtty contesting. I have found the 400Hz filter to be
just right for rtty. The 250 is too narrow. I then narrow the DSP
filter to 300Hz if needed, with the 400Hz Xtal filter in front.
Gordon - N1MGO

On 02/21/2017 06:27 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:

--
Gordon - N1MGO

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Richard Ferch-2

Re: K3 Receiver mush

In reply to this post by w0mu

Actually it's not the 250 Hz roofing filter that is too narrow, it is the
250 Hz DSP filter setting. If you ignore the label on the roofing filter
and configure the K3 to switch the 250 Hz crystal filter in at the 350 Hz
DSP setting, the combination (350 Hz DSP, 250 Hz roofing filter) works fine
for those situations where there is a very strong signal right next door.
The rest of the time I prefer to operate with a 400-450 Hz DSP bandwidth
and a 500 Hz roofing filter.

73,
Rich VE3KI

N1MGO wrote:

I do lots of rtty contesting. I have found the 400Hz filter to be
just right for rtty. The 250 is too narrow. I then narrow the DSP
filter to 300Hz if needed, with the 400Hz Xtal filter in front.
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w0mu

Re: K3 Receiver mush

In reply to this post by gm3sek

Thanks.

My threshhold was at 8 I have moved it up to 12. Slope was zero but I
change it all the time hoping for a miracle! HI!

I am going to have to borrow another rig when I get back and see if I
see the same things on another brand.

W0MU

On 2/22/2017 1:42 AM, Ian White wrote:

> Re-posting from April 2016, and earlier:
>
> 73 from Ian GM3SEK
>
>
> ***************
>
> The factory default AGC THReshold for the K3 and K3S is very, very low.
> Measurements by KE7X [1] have shown that the default setting of THR=5
> corresponds to an AGC onset at less than S3, whereas competing rigs have
> a threshold of S7 or even higher. This very low AGC threshold is what
> allows the AGC to be activated by band noise.
>
> Elecraft's factory defaults of THR=5 and SLP=12 compress all signals
> above the AGC threshold into a very narrow range of audio output levels
> [see the measurements by KE7X]. This makes for comfortable
> broadcast-style listening - but there is price to be paid. The default
> settings tend to hide the real-life differences in the strengths of
> incoming signals - important differences that DXers and contesters
> *need* to hear, in order to pick individual signals out of a pileup.
>
> Following complaints from DXers, DXpeditioners and contesters about this
> so-called "pileup mush", and following further series of measurements by
> KE7X, Elecraft eventually did increase the available range of AGC
> THReshold settings (the v4.51 firmware upgrade).
>
> Following the release of FW v4.51, the consensus within the
> [K3-contesting] Yahoo group about the most important settings for DXing
> and contesting has been as follows.
>
> * AGC THR: increase to at least 8 (from default = 5) and preferably to
> 12, and then take some time to become re-accustomed to the increased
> range of audio levels [2]. (Some users recommend as high as 14, if your
> ears can handle it.)
>
> * AGC SLP: decrease to 8 or even less (from default = 12). Lower SLP
> settings allow stronger signals to sound somewhat louder, and thus more
> realistic, but the range of variation will be partly determined by the
> THR setting already made; so always experiment with THR first, and with
> SLP afterwards.
>
> * AGC DCY = SOFT (not default=NOR). The User Manual claims that "The
> SOFT setting can reduce IMD caused by traditional AGC, and is especially
> useful in 'pileup' conditions, in some cases making it unnecessary to
> turn AGC off."
>
> The settings recommended above have essentially solved the problem of
> "pileup mush" for those who have tried them... but regrettably, Elecraft
> has done almost nothing to make DXers and contesters aware that such
> changes are possible.
>
> More than 3 years after the firmware release notes boasted that v4.51
> "greatly improves signal clarity in pile-ups and other high-noise or
> dense-signal situations, especially with threshold set to 12 or higher",
> that information is *still* missing from the User Manual. There is also
> no information on how to create different 'profiles' of AGC settings for
> different types of users.
>
> Meanwhile, Elecraft's factory AGC defaults remain exactly as they were,
> still optimized apparently for comfortable 'listening', while many DXers
> and contesters remain unaware that their K3/K3S could actually be *so*
> much better.
>
>
>
> [1] http://www.ke7x.com/home/miscellaneous-k3-information
>
> [2] It is important to give any increased AGC THReshold setting an
> extended trial. To anyone accustomed to an artificially restricted range
> of audio signal levels, a higher setting will initially sound quite
> 'aggressive' - even though the new setting is much closer to real life.
>
> ************
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
>> W0MU Mike Fatchett
>> Sent: 22 February 2017 00:39
>> To: Elecraft Reflector
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Receiver mush
>>
>> I can run with 400 or 250hz filters.
>>
>> I have tried it with AGC fast, slow off etc.
>>
>> I just think this is something that most people just never see. This
> was
>> a major point of discussion a while back. I guess it is just the way
>> the radio is. I will have to try another rig to see if I notice the
>> same effects.
>>
>> In a pileup there is no offending station they are all calling me.
>>
>> I was just curious if other contesters or DXpeditioners settings might
>> be and if they are still seeing this issue.
>>
>> W0MU
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/21/2017 8:48 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> Think about it - if there are multiple signals in the passband, the
>>> AGC will respond to the strongest, there is just no way around that
> fact.
>>> If the signals can be separated by the DSP, and one is really strong,
>>> that strong station may be activating the Hardware AGC. The only
>>> solution for the latter is a more narrow roofing filter - put the
>>> offending strong signal out of the passband of the roofing filter and
>>> use shift to get your sidetone for the desired signal back in order.
>>>
>>> That may be too much "fiddling" for a run station in a contest, but
> it
>>> is a viable way to operate when trying to copy a weak station working
>>> close to a strong station.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Don W3FPR
>>>
>>> On 2/21/2017 9:25 AM, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote:
>>>> We noticed again during the contest hat when 3 or 4 stations called,
> all
>>>> those signals would be flattened to the same level. Once you got to
>>>> where one or two stations were calling the signal level would pop up
>>>> substantially.
>>>>
>>>> I have played endlessly with slope and threshold with little effect.
>>>>
>>>> My K3 has the new syn boards as well and filters from 2.8 to 2.5.
>>>> Latest firmware etc.
>>>>

Cady, Fred-2

Re: K3 Receiver mush

In reply to this post by gm3sek

Thanks Ian I was about to point out those AGC data but you beat me to it.

To emphasize the comments on SLP a bit, SLP = 0 gives you the best discrimination between signals of different strength ABOVE the THR level. When working a pileup I want that. Setting SLP=15 is a flat slope and makes signals of different level sound the same. You might want that for general rag chewing. However, since version 4.51, higher THR levels also affect SLP. For high THR, SLP=0 and SLP=15 are virtually the same. Alan explained that once but I'm not sure why that is so.

BTW, it is easy to make macros to switch between different THR/SLP values for different operating conditions.

Cheers,

Fred KE7X

For all KE7X books (and other information) see www.ke7x.com<http://www.ke7x.com>.

________________________________
From: Elecraft <[hidden email]> on behalf of Ian White <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 12:42 AM
To: 'W0MU Mike Fatchett'; 'Elecraft Reflector'
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Receiver mush

Re-posting from April 2016, and earlier:

73 from Ian GM3SEK

***************

The factory default AGC THReshold for the K3 and K3S is very, very low.
Measurements by KE7X [1] have shown that the default setting of THR=5
corresponds to an AGC onset at less than S3, whereas competing rigs have
a threshold of S7 or even higher. This very low AGC threshold is what
allows the AGC to be activated by band noise.

Elecraft's factory defaults of THR=5 and SLP=12 compress all signals
above the AGC threshold into a very narrow range of audio output levels
[see the measurements by KE7X]. This makes for comfortable
broadcast-style listening - but there is price to be paid. The default
settings tend to hide the real-life differences in the strengths of
incoming signals - important differences that DXers and contesters
*need* to hear, in order to pick individual signals out of a pileup.

Following complaints from DXers, DXpeditioners and contesters about this
so-called "pileup mush", and following further series of measurements by
KE7X, Elecraft eventually did increase the available range of AGC
THReshold settings (the v4.51 firmware upgrade).

Following the release of FW v4.51, the consensus within the
[K3-contesting] Yahoo group about the most important settings for DXing
and contesting has been as follows.

* AGC THR: increase to at least 8 (from default = 5) and preferably to
12, and then take some time to become re-accustomed to the increased
range of audio levels [2]. (Some users recommend as high as 14, if your
ears can handle it.)

* AGC SLP: decrease to 8 or even less (from default = 12). Lower SLP
settings allow stronger signals to sound somewhat louder, and thus more
realistic, but the range of variation will be partly determined by the
THR setting already made; so always experiment with THR first, and with
SLP afterwards.

* AGC DCY = SOFT (not default=NOR). The User Manual claims that "The
SOFT setting can reduce IMD caused by traditional AGC, and is especially
useful in 'pileup' conditions, in some cases making it unnecessary to
turn AGC off."

The settings recommended above have essentially solved the problem of
"pileup mush" for those who have tried them... but regrettably, Elecraft
has done almost nothing to make DXers and contesters aware that such
changes are possible.

More than 3 years after the firmware release notes boasted that v4.51
"greatly improves signal clarity in pile-ups and other high-noise or
dense-signal situations, especially with threshold set to 12 or higher",
that information is *still* missing from the User Manual. There is also
no information on how to create different 'profiles' of AGC settings for
different types of users.

Meanwhile, Elecraft's factory AGC defaults remain exactly as they were,
still optimized apparently for comfortable 'listening', while many DXers
and contesters remain unaware that their K3/K3S could actually be *so*
much better.

[1] http://www.ke7x.com/home/miscellaneous-k3-information

[2] It is important to give any increased AGC THReshold setting an
extended trial. To anyone accustomed to an artificially restricted range
of audio signal levels, a higher setting will initially sound quite
'aggressive' - even though the new setting is much closer to real life.

************

was

Drew AF2Z

Re: K3 Receiver mush

Yes, I have assigned SLP & THR to M1 tap & M1 hold. Then tap or hold M1
and dial in the SLP or THR value as needed.

73,
Drew
AF2Z

On 02/22/17 12:07, Cady, Fred wrote:

> Thanks Ian I was about to point out those AGC data but you beat me to it.
>
> To emphasize the comments on SLP a bit, SLP = 0 gives you the best discrimination between signals of different strength ABOVE the THR level. When working a pileup I want that. Setting SLP=15 is a flat slope and makes signals of different level sound the same. You might want that for general rag chewing. However, since version 4.51, higher THR levels also affect SLP. For high THR, SLP=0 and SLP=15 are virtually the same. Alan explained that once but I'm not sure why that is so.
>
>
> BTW, it is easy to make macros to switch between different THR/SLP values for different operating conditions.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Fred KE7X
>
>
> For all KE7X books (and other information) see www.ke7x.com<http://www.ke7x.com>.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Elecraft <[hidden email]> on behalf of Ian White <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 12:42 AM
> To: 'W0MU Mike Fatchett'; 'Elecraft Reflector'
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Receiver mush
>
> Re-posting from April 2016, and earlier:
>
> 73 from Ian GM3SEK
>
>
> ***************
>
> The factory default AGC THReshold for the K3 and K3S is very, very low.
> Measurements by KE7X [1] have shown that the default setting of THR=5
> corresponds to an AGC onset at less than S3, whereas competing rigs have
> a threshold of S7 or even higher. This very low AGC threshold is what
> allows the AGC to be activated by band noise.
>
> Elecraft's factory defaults of THR=5 and SLP=12 compress all signals
> above the AGC threshold into a very narrow range of audio output levels
> [see the measurements by KE7X]. This makes for comfortable
> broadcast-style listening - but there is price to be paid. The default
> settings tend to hide the real-life differences in the strengths of
> incoming signals - important differences that DXers and contesters
> *need* to hear, in order to pick individual signals out of a pileup.
>
> Following complaints from DXers, DXpeditioners and contesters about this
> so-called "pileup mush", and following further series of measurements by
> KE7X, Elecraft eventually did increase the available range of AGC
> THReshold settings (the v4.51 firmware upgrade).
>
> Following the release of FW v4.51, the consensus within the
> [K3-contesting] Yahoo group about the most important settings for DXing
> and contesting has been as follows.
>
> * AGC THR: increase to at least 8 (from default = 5) and preferably to
> 12, and then take some time to become re-accustomed to the increased
> range of audio levels [2]. (Some users recommend as high as 14, if your
> ears can handle it.)
>
> * AGC SLP: decrease to 8 or even less (from default = 12). Lower SLP
> settings allow stronger signals to sound somewhat louder, and thus more
> realistic, but the range of variation will be partly determined by the
> THR setting already made; so always experiment with THR first, and with
> SLP afterwards.
>
> * AGC DCY = SOFT (not default=NOR). The User Manual claims that "The
> SOFT setting can reduce IMD caused by traditional AGC, and is especially
> useful in 'pileup' conditions, in some cases making it unnecessary to
> turn AGC off."
>
> The settings recommended above have essentially solved the problem of
> "pileup mush" for those who have tried them... but regrettably, Elecraft
> has done almost nothing to make DXers and contesters aware that such
> changes are possible.
>
> More than 3 years after the firmware release notes boasted that v4.51
> "greatly improves signal clarity in pile-ups and other high-noise or
> dense-signal situations, especially with threshold set to 12 or higher",
> that information is *still* missing from the User Manual. There is also
> no information on how to create different 'profiles' of AGC settings for
> different types of users.
>
> Meanwhile, Elecraft's factory AGC defaults remain exactly as they were,
> still optimized apparently for comfortable 'listening', while many DXers
> and contesters remain unaware that their K3/K3S could actually be *so*
> much better.
>
>
>
> [1] http://www.ke7x.com/home/miscellaneous-k3-information
>
> [2] It is important to give any increased AGC THReshold setting an
> extended trial. To anyone accustomed to an artificially restricted range
> of audio signal levels, a higher setting will initially sound quite
> 'aggressive' - even though the new setting is much closer to real life.
>
> ************
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
>> W0MU Mike Fatchett
>> Sent: 22 February 2017 00:39
>> To: Elecraft Reflector
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Receiver mush
>>
>> I can run with 400 or 250hz filters.
>>
>> I have tried it with AGC fast, slow off etc.
>>
>> I just think this is something that most people just never see. This
> was
>> a major point of discussion a while back. I guess it is just the way
>> the radio is. I will have to try another rig to see if I notice the
>> same effects.
>>
>> In a pileup there is no offending station they are all calling me.
>>
>> I was just curious if other contesters or DXpeditioners settings might
>> be and if they are still seeing this issue.
>>
>> W0MU
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/21/2017 8:48 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> Think about it - if there are multiple signals in the passband, the
>>> AGC will respond to the strongest, there is just no way around that
> fact.
>>> If the signals can be separated by the DSP, and one is really strong,
>>> that strong station may be activating the Hardware AGC. The only
>>> solution for the latter is a more narrow roofing filter - put the
>>> offending strong signal out of the passband of the roofing filter and
>>> use shift to get your sidetone for the desired signal back in order.
>>>
>>> That may be too much "fiddling" for a run station in a contest, but
> it
>>> is a viable way to operate when trying to copy a weak station working
>>> close to a strong station.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Don W3FPR
>>>
>>> On 2/21/2017 9:25 AM, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote:
>>>> We noticed again during the contest hat when 3 or 4 stations called,
> all
>>>> those signals would be flattened to the same level. Once you got to
>>>> where one or two stations were calling the signal level would pop up
>>>> substantially.
>>>>
>>>> I have played endlessly with slope and threshold with little effect.
>>>>
>>>> My K3 has the new syn boards as well and filters from 2.8 to 2.5.
>>>> Latest firmware etc.
>>>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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>