[K3] Reconfiguring band boundaries

[Thomas Horsten]

Hi,

I sent a question about this to Elecraft support, but I didn't get a
reply so let me try the community..

I've got a K3, serial no. 4208, and I would like to change it's band
settings so that it will match my UK licence. Currently, the "band
end" limitations are not correct for my region.

For example, it will transmit on the section of the 80m band above
3800 that's not allocated in the UK, and the same for 40m at 7200 and
above.

So I'd like to change the band limitations to lock the unallocated
sections out and avoid accidentally transmitting outside the licenced
bands. For example, I sometimes hit "TUNE" and scan up and down the
band to make sure that the SWR is reasonable across the entire band,
in this mode the VFO isn't displayed, but if I hit a programmed-in
band limit it stops by itself, but this doesn't prevent me from
transmitting out-of-band at 40m and 80m for example, because the upper
limit is not correct for my location and licence.

Is there a way to reprogram this? It seems to me it should be a simple
firmware tweak.

Any help/pointers would be appreciated!

73, Thomas 2E0ETT
K3 # 4208
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[Brendan Minish]

On Thu, 2011-03-17 at 11:45 +0000, Thomas Horsten wrote:

>
> So I'd like to change the band limitations to lock the unallocated
> sections out and avoid accidentally transmitting outside the licenced
> bands. For example, I sometimes hit "TUNE" and scan up and down the
> band to make sure that the SWR is reasonable across the entire band,

PLEASE DON'T do this, It's VERY inconsiderate to other band users.
there is already plenty of QRM on the bands.

--
73
Brendan EI6IZ

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[Chester Alderman]

Not only is it inconsiderate to other operators, you run the risk of
damaging your K3 if your antenna happens to become defective. The K3 is a
transceiver, not a swept SWR analyzer!

73,
Tom - W4BQF



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Brendan Minish
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:56 AM
To: Thomas Horsten
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Reconfiguring band boundaries

On Thu, 2011-03-17 at 11:45 +0000, Thomas Horsten wrote:

>
> So I'd like to change the band limitations to lock the unallocated
> sections out and avoid accidentally transmitting outside the licenced
> bands. For example, I sometimes hit "TUNE" and scan up and down the
> band to make sure that the SWR is reasonable across the entire band,

PLEASE DON'T do this, It's VERY inconsiderate to other band users.
there is already plenty of QRM on the bands.

--
73
Brendan EI6IZ

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[Thomas Horsten]

On 17 March 2011 12:02, Tommy Alderman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Not only is it inconsiderate to other operators, you run the risk of
> damaging your K3 if your antenna happens to become defective. The K3 is a
> transceiver, not a swept SWR analyzer!

Ok, so I guess we've established that I shouldn't be doing that, now
back to the original question, how can I change the band boundaries?

73, Thomas 2E0ETT
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[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ]

Hi Thomas,
Not at this time. Making this user configurable requires a fair amount of f/w work and our plate is full with other f/w work at the moment.

73,
Eric

www.elecraft.com
_..._



On Mar 17, 2011, at 5:12 AM, Thomas Horsten <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 17 March 2011 12:02, Tommy Alderman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Not only is it inconsiderate to other operators, you run the risk of
>> damaging your K3 if your antenna happens to become defective. The K3 is a
>> transceiver, not a swept SWR analyzer!
>
> Ok, so I guess we've established that I shouldn't be doing that, now
> back to the original question, how can I change the band boundaries?
>
> 73, Thomas 2E0ETT
> ______________________________________________________________
>

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[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ]

End of the SWR sweeping portion of this thread.

Eric
Elecraft List Moderator
www.elecraft.com
_..._



On Mar 17, 2011, at 5:02 AM, "Tommy Alderman" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Not only is it inconsiderate to other operators, you run the risk of
> damaging your K3 if your antenna happens to become defective. The K3 is a
> transceiver, not a swept SWR analyzer!
>
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[Thomas Horsten]

Hi Eric,

On 17 March 2011 13:49, Eric Swartz  WA6HHQ - Elecraft
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi Thomas,
> Not at this time. Making this user configurable requires a fair amount of f/w work and our plate is full with other f/w work at the moment.

Ok thanks for the response, I appreciate you have other priorities for
 firmware enhancements, it didn't seem like something particularly
difficult to implement to me, but what do I know :)

73, Thomas 2E0ETT
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[M0XDF]

Strangely enough, most of us wanted to expand the transmission range - especially those in Oz etc where they can transmitted way outside our limits.
There is software available from Elecraft on request to do that (for MARS).
73 de M0XDF, K3 #174, P3 #108

On 17 Mar 2011, at 11:45, Thomas Horsten wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I sent a question about this to Elecraft support, but I didn't get a
> reply so let me try the community..
>
> I've got a K3, serial no. 4208, and I would like to change it's band
> settings so that it will match my UK licence. Currently, the "band
> end" limitations are not correct for my region.
>
> For example, it will transmit on the section of the 80m band above
> 3800 that's not allocated in the UK, and the same for 40m at 7200 and
> above.
>
> So I'd like to change the band limitations to lock the unallocated
> sections out and avoid accidentally transmitting outside the licenced
> bands. For example, I sometimes hit "TUNE" and scan up and down the
> band to make sure that the SWR is reasonable across the entire band,
> in this mode the VFO isn't displayed, but if I hit a programmed-in
> band limit it stops by itself, but this doesn't prevent me from
> transmitting out-of-band at 40m and 80m for example, because the upper
> limit is not correct for my location and licence.
>
> Is there a way to reprogram this? It seems to me it should be a simple
> firmware tweak.
>
> Any help/pointers would be appreciated!

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[Thomas Horsten]

I got a couple of emails off-list in response to my request for
locking down the transceiver for the ham bands only.

The gist of these mails was, that as licenced hams we have been
through the training and exams and should be able to stay within our
licence conditions, and we should (and generally can) be trusted with
equipment that is capable of operating outside the ham bands.

I just wanted to make it clear that I don't disagree with this at all,
and I was never suggesting that it's the job of the rig manufacturers
to lock down devices just to prevent us from doing something
wrong/illegal/stupid if we choose to do so.

I've also got other rigs capable of transmitting well outside the ham bands.

As everybody knows we can and do make mistakes from time to time. For
example see the "Operated K3 SSB in CW band - not sure why" or the
"Oops I did it again" threads.

In short there are many ways to make a mistake, especially when (like
me) you are experimenting with various computer controls etc., and
having the transmit ranges configurable at the rig firmware level,
would provide an extra line of defence - nothing more and nothing less
- if you choose to enable that option.

If I mistakenly transmit on the wrong frequency within the ham bands,
I may be causing a nuisance to others, but that's as far as it goes -
but if I transmit outside the ham bands I am (in my jurisdiction)
committing a crime and could (in the worst case) be prosecuted and/or
lose my licence. Now, I know it's quite unlikely that this would
happen when it was clearly a mistake, but still.

So that's the reason for my question in the first place. If this was
something I could easily do with a firmware/configuration tweak I
would have liked to enable it, just as an extra line of defence. If
it's harder than that, fine, I can live without it and it will just be
a nice thing to have if it one day gets implemented in the firmware.

73,
Thomas 2E0ETT
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[g3ymc]

On 17 Mar 2011 at 18:17, Thomas Horsten wrote:

> If I mistakenly transmit on the wrong frequency within the ham bands, I
> may be causing a nuisance to others, but that's as far as it goes - but
> if I transmit outside the ham bands I am (in my jurisdiction) committing
> a crime and could (in the worst case) be prosecuted and/or lose my
> licence. Now, I know it's quite unlikely that this would happen when it
> was clearly a mistake, but still.
>

The K2, K1 and KX1 have never had any form of out of band notification
and it has never been an issue with them. Like the wrong VFO problem it
is just a matter of taking care what you do. OK, we all make mistakes
at times, and in the worst case you might accidentally transmit out of
band. Can't remember ever doing so myself, although some people I call
are incredibly close to the band edge...

To try and cope with international differences in amateur bands must be
a nightmare. We recently got the extended 40m band, no problem with the
K2 but many other rigs from other manufacturers sold in the UK needed
modding to cover it. 60m on the K2 is broadbanded and not restricted to
the (useless for us) USA channels. Not to mention we are not allowed to
go below 1810khz...

73 Dave G3YMC

http://www.davesergeant.com

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[Don Wilhelm-4]

  Thomas,

If you are "experimenting with various computer controls" and you have
the "out of band" concern, I would think the place to place the band
limits would be in the computer application.  I know Ham Radio Deluxe
has provisions for setting band limits for you.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/17/2011 2:17 PM, Thomas Horsten wrote:
> In short there are many ways to make a mistake, especially when (like
> me) you are experimenting with various computer controls etc.,
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[Bill K9YEQ]

Not to beat a dead horse... I don't think this is an issue of trust, our
license dictates we know where we are transmitting and stay within our
license boundaries.  That said, I find it disconcerting that the FCC
requires all the restrictions on manufacturers. I believe it was illegal use
or sale of manufactured amateur  gear to unlicensed operators that created
this mess.   Scratch builders generally know what they are doing and thus
their equipment is exempt as long as they hold the license and operate in
the bands they are licensed for.

I for one would rather we move on to the next technical topic.

Bill
K9YEQ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Thomas Horsten
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 1:17 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Reconfiguring band boundaries

I got a couple of emails off-list in response to my request for locking down
the transceiver for the ham bands only.

The gist of these mails was, that as licenced hams we have been through the
training and exams and should be able to stay within our licence conditions,
and we should (and generally can) be trusted with equipment that is capable
of operating outside the ham bands.

.....

73,
Thomas 2E0ETT

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[Ross Primrose N4RP]

If you're experimenting with various computer controls, that's what TX
Test mode is for!

73, Ross N4RP

On 3/17/2011 3:08 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

>    Thomas,
>
> If you are "experimenting with various computer controls" and you have
> the "out of band" concern, I would think the place to place the band
> limits would be in the computer application.  I know Ham Radio Deluxe
> has provisions for setting band limits for you.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 3/17/2011 2:17 PM, Thomas Horsten wrote:
>> In short there are many ways to make a mistake, especially when (like
>> me) you are experimenting with various computer controls etc.,
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--
FCC Section 97.313(a) “At all times, an amateur station must use the minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications.”

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[Thomas Horsten]

Hi Don,

On 17 March 2011 19:08, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If you are "experimenting with various computer controls" and you have the
> "out of band" concern, I would think the place to place the band limits
> would be in the computer application.  I know Ham Radio Deluxe has
> provisions for setting band limits for you.

I'm working on homebrew Linux software to control the K3. It has got
band limits built in, but there will be bugs :) Yes, I can operate in
TX test mode until I'm reasonably confident it works as expected, but
there are always corner cases and unexpected situations that show up
when you don't expect it.

Every time you add a layer of checks you reduce the risk of a total
failure - "defense in depth". So I was just trying to see if I could
add a layer in the K3, it turns out not, and that's ok, I can
compensate by taking extra precautions elsewhere.

What I don't understand is why the whole idea seems to be so controversial.

73,
Thomas 2E0ETT
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[N5GE]

Scanning with the key down is a very bad practice.  Don't do it!

It is your responsibility to keep within your licensed band limits, so I believe
that request is frivoless.

Now if you had a license that allowed you to transmit outside the limits of your
licensed bands such as the members on the Military Afilliate Radio System (MARS)
here in the US it is a valid request which Elecraft will accomodate you with,
but you are still expected to know your licenses band limits, especially when
testing your equipment.

Tom
N5GE
 
On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 11:45:19 +0000, you wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I sent a question about this to Elecraft support, but I didn't get a
>reply so let me try the community..
>
>I've got a K3, serial no. 4208, and I would like to change it's band
>settings so that it will match my UK licence. Currently, the "band
>end" limitations are not correct for my region.
>
>For example, it will transmit on the section of the 80m band above
>3800 that's not allocated in the UK, and the same for 40m at 7200 and
>above.
>
>So I'd like to change the band limitations to lock the unallocated
>sections out and avoid accidentally transmitting outside the licenced
>bands. For example, I sometimes hit "TUNE" and scan up and down the
>band to make sure that the SWR is reasonable across the entire band,
>in this mode the VFO isn't displayed, but if I hit a programmed-in
>band limit it stops by itself, but this doesn't prevent me from
>transmitting out-of-band at 40m and 80m for example, because the upper
>limit is not correct for my location and licence.
>
>Is there a way to reprogram this? It seems to me it should be a simple
>firmware tweak.
>
>Any help/pointers would be appreciated!
>
>73, Thomas 2E0ETT
>K3 # 4208
>______________________________________________________________
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>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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[Thomas Horsten]

Ok, if you insist on missing the point be my guest. But please read my
last post again, with your eyes open.


On 18 March 2011 00:31,  <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Scanning with the key down is a very bad practice.  Don't do it!
>
> It is your responsibility to keep within your licensed band limits, so I believe
> that request is frivoless.
>
> Now if you had a license that allowed you to transmit outside the limits of your
> licensed bands such as the members on the Military Afilliate Radio System (MARS)
> here in the US it is a valid request which Elecraft will accomodate you with,
> but you are still expected to know your licenses band limits, especially when
> testing your equipment.
>
> Tom
> N5GE
>
> On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 11:45:19 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>I sent a question about this to Elecraft support, but I didn't get a
>>reply so let me try the community..
>>
>>I've got a K3, serial no. 4208, and I would like to change it's band
>>settings so that it will match my UK licence. Currently, the "band
>>end" limitations are not correct for my region.
>>
>>For example, it will transmit on the section of the 80m band above
>>3800 that's not allocated in the UK, and the same for 40m at 7200 and
>>above.
>>
>>So I'd like to change the band limitations to lock the unallocated
>>sections out and avoid accidentally transmitting outside the licenced
>>bands. For example, I sometimes hit "TUNE" and scan up and down the
>>band to make sure that the SWR is reasonable across the entire band,
>>in this mode the VFO isn't displayed, but if I hit a programmed-in
>>band limit it stops by itself, but this doesn't prevent me from
>>transmitting out-of-band at 40m and 80m for example, because the upper
>>limit is not correct for my location and licence.
>>
>>Is there a way to reprogram this? It seems to me it should be a simple
>>firmware tweak.
>>
>>Any help/pointers would be appreciated!
>>
>>73, Thomas 2E0ETT
>>K3 # 4208
>>______________________________________________________________
>>Elecraft mailing list
>>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>

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[K5DNL]

Hello All,
I see nothing wrong with a utility program that would allow band edge limits or even in band limits if one liked .

73 all Ken K5DNL

----------------------------------------------------------

--- On Thu, 3/17/11, Thomas Horsten <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Thomas Horsten <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Reconfiguring band boundaries
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 7:43 PM
> Ok, if you insist on missing the
> point be my guest. But please read my
> last post again, with your eyes open.
>
>
> On 18 March 2011 00:31,  <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Scanning with the key down is a very bad practice.
>  Don't do it!
> >
> > It is your responsibility to keep within your licensed
> band limits, so I believe
> > that request is frivoless.
> >
> > Now if you had a license that allowed you to transmit
> outside the limits of your
> > licensed bands such as the members on the Military
> Afilliate Radio System (MARS)
> > here in the US it is a valid request which Elecraft
> will accomodate you with,
> > but you are still expected to know your licenses band
> limits, especially when
> > testing your equipment.
> >
> > Tom
> > N5GE
> >
> > On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 11:45:19 +0000, you wrote:
> >
> >>Hi,
> >>
> >>I sent a question about this to Elecraft support,
> but I didn't get a
> >>reply so let me try the community..
> >>
> >>I've got a K3, serial no. 4208, and I would like to
> change it's band
> >>settings so that it will match my UK licence.
> Currently, the "band
> >>end" limitations are not correct for my region.
> >>
> >>For example, it will transmit on the section of the
> 80m band above
> >>3800 that's not allocated in the UK, and the same
> for 40m at 7200 and
> >>above.
> >>
> >>So I'd like to change the band limitations to lock
> the unallocated
> >>sections out and avoid accidentally transmitting
> outside the licenced
> >>bands. For example, I sometimes hit "TUNE" and scan
> up and down the
> >>band to make sure that the SWR is reasonable across
> the entire band,
> >>in this mode the VFO isn't displayed, but if I hit
> a programmed-in
> >>band limit it stops by itself, but this doesn't
> prevent me from
> >>transmitting out-of-band at 40m and 80m for
> example, because the upper
> >>limit is not correct for my location and licence.
> >>
> >>Is there a way to reprogram this? It seems to me it
> should be a simple
> >>firmware tweak.
> >>
> >>Any help/pointers would be appreciated!
> >>
> >>73, Thomas 2E0ETT
> >>K3 # 4208
> >>______________________________________________________________
> >>Elecraft mailing list
> >>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
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> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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> >
> ______________________________________________________________
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[juergen piezo]

I would like to see a true SDR receiver from Elecraft. Something like the QSR1 with a pre-selector and the facility to use it  with a transmitter built in.

Very few of the SDR's on the market are designed more for swl'ing rather than  ham use. A Ham friendly SDR from Elecraft would get my vote. If it could be installed into the P3 box that would even be better.

I find that I use my Perseus more than the P3, that will probably change when I can use an external monitor with the P3.

73
John


     
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[Don Wilhelm-4]

  John,

The K3 is an SDR.  It does not depend on an external computer to support
its operation, but by all proper definitions of an SDR, the K3 qualifies.

I am not certain what your "true SDR" means.

If your definition of an SDR is one that is a "black box" that requires
a computer to be a fully functional device or one that requires a
spectrum and waterfall display, then I believe your definition is limited.

The K3 has the SDR computer built-in, and the downloadable firmware can
alter its functions and characteristics drastically - that is the basic
definition of an SDR.  I believe you are looking at the presentation
aspects of other SDR radios that depend on an external computer for
support, and that is not the essentials of an SDR - an SDR is a radio
that can be altered by installling different firmware - a pure and
simple definition, and the K3 does qualify for that.

If you want the latest on computer assisted SDR designs, I suggest you
look into the Softrock-40 group on Yahoo, there is a lot of good
activity, and the hardware kits are available at reasonable prices.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/17/2011 9:37 PM, juergen wrote:

> I would like to see a true SDR receiver from Elecraft. Something like the QSR1 with a pre-selector and the facility to use it  with a transmitter built in.
>
> Very few of the SDR's on the market are designed more for swl'ing rather than  ham use. A Ham friendly SDR from Elecraft would get my vote. If it could be installed into the P3 box that would even be better.
>
> I find that I use my Perseus more than the P3, that will probably change when I can use an external monitor with the P3.
>
> 73
> John
>
>

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[juergen piezo]

Hi Don

I was referring to a direct sampling SDR black box. I am sure a direct sampling receiver with the Elecraft brand name would be a top seller. Lyle probably has  prototypes on his workbench!

I am also sure that a DUC transmitter from Elecraft would also be a popular product.

Direct sampling and DUC transmitters are in all our futures.

73
John
--- On Thu, 3/17/11, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft_K3] KR3 SW Receiver.
> To: "juergen" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Date: Thursday, March 17, 2011, 7:09 PM
>  John,
>
> The K3 is an SDR.  It does not depend on an external
> computer to support its operation, but by all proper
> definitions of an SDR, the K3 qualifies.
>
> I am not certain what your "true SDR" means.
>
> If your definition of an SDR is one that is a "black box"
> that requires a computer to be a fully functional device or
> one that requires a spectrum and waterfall display, then I
> believe your definition is limited.
>
> The K3 has the SDR computer built-in, and the downloadable
> firmware can alter its functions and characteristics
> drastically - that is the basic definition of an SDR. 
> I believe you are looking at the presentation aspects of
> other SDR radios that depend on an external computer for
> support, and that is not the essentials of an SDR - an SDR
> is a radio that can be altered by installling different
> firmware - a pure and simple definition, and the K3 does
> qualify for that.
>
> If you want the latest on computer assisted SDR designs, I
> suggest you look into the Softrock-40 group on Yahoo, there
> is a lot of good activity, and the hardware kits are
> available at reasonable prices.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 3/17/2011 9:37 PM, juergen wrote:
> > I would like to see a true SDR receiver from Elecraft.
> Something like the QSR1 with a pre-selector and the facility
> to use it  with a transmitter built in.
> >
> > Very few of the SDR's on the market are designed more
> for swl'ing rather than  ham use. A Ham friendly SDR
> from Elecraft would get my vote. If it could be installed
> into the P3 box that would even be better.
> >
> > I find that I use my Perseus more than the P3, that
> will probably change when I can use an external monitor with
> the P3.
> >
> > 73
> > John
> >
> >
>

     
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