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K3 S Meter behavior

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Robert Mitilieri - N9EF

K3 S Meter behavior

While I've seen many post regarding S meter calibration I have a question to which I haven't found an answer in the archives.

Let's say I'm listening to a signal that's peaking at S7. I usually decrease the RF gain so that, with no signal, the S meter reads about S5. This reduces the background noise. However when I do this on my K3, the signal that was peaking at S7 is now peaking at S9 +10db. Reducing the RF gain further shows the signal peaking near S9 +20db. I am accustomed to having the signal still peak at S7 since the signal strength hasn't actually increased at all.

I'm still getting used to the K3 (s/n 4411). Is there a configuration parameter that I may have set incorrectly?

Robert - N9EF
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 S Meter behavior

Robert,

That is just the way the S-meter response works - it is the same on many
receivers - the S-meter will indicate higher when the RF Gain is reduced.

The K3 does have a "cure", and that is to set the S-meter to ABS
(absolute) in the Configuration Menu (see the manual). With that
setting, the S-meter does not change with the PRE/ATT/RF Gain.

If you use the absolute S-meter setting, you may want to modify the
S-meter calibration from that indicated in the manual. In other words,
adjust the S-meter to read S-9 with a 50 uV signal imput with the Preamp
OFF rather than ON as the manual indicates. The S-meter is a relative
indication, and can be calibrated to give almost any reading you want
with any given signal level. Set it to your preference whether that be
as the manual suggests or as you understand how an S-meter should
respond - there are no "rules", but Elecraft has adhered to the Collins
'standard' of S-9 equals a 50 uV signal level for its nominal (and
default) settings. The Elecraft XG2 is an excellent source of s 50
uVsignal level.

73,
Don W3FPR

Robert Mitilieri - N9EF wrote:
> While I've seen many post regarding S meter calibration I have a question to which I haven't found an answer in the archives.
>
> Let's say I'm listening to a signal that's peaking at S7. I usually decrease the RF gain so that, with no signal, the S meter reads about S5. This reduces the background noise. However when I do this on my K3, the signal that was peaking at S7 is now peaking at S9 +10db. Reducing the RF gain further shows the signal peaking near S9 +20db. I am accustomed to having the signal still peak at S7 since the signal strength hasn't actually increased at all.
>
> I'm still getting used to the K3 (s/n 4411). Is there a configuration parameter that I may have set incorrectly?
>
>
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Robert Mitilieri - N9EF

Re: K3 S Meter behavior

In reply to this post by Robert Mitilieri - N9EF

Increasing the RF gain does deflect the meter upwards. I should have mentioned that there is an S3 noise floor. Here's the steps that I followed:

Tune a signal that's peaking S7 with RF gain fully CW
Tune away from any signal (S3 noise) adjust the RF gain CCW until the meter reads S5
Tune that same signal that was peaking S7 but now he's peaking S9 +10db.

If I then increase the RF gain the signal returns to peaking at S7.

I can reproduce this behavior with signals at any level

On Jul 14, 2010, at 10:34 PM, Garry Shapiro wrote:

> In every radio I have had, reducing the RF gain deflects the Smeter upwards, not downwards.
>
> On 7/14/2010 7:56 PM, Robert Mitilieri - N9EF wrote:
>>
>> While I've seen many post regarding S meter calibration I have a question to which I haven't found an answer in the archives.
>>
>> Let's say I'm listening to a signal that's peaking at S7. I usually decrease the RF gain so that, with no signal, the S meter reads about S5. This reduces the background noise. However when I do this on my K3, the signal that was peaking at S7 is now peaking at S9 +10db. Reducing the RF gain further shows the signal peaking near S9 +20db. I am accustomed to having the signal still peak at S7 since the signal strength hasn't actually increased at all.
>>
>> I'm still getting used to the K3 (s/n 4411). Is there a configuration parameter that I may have set incorrectly?
>>
>> Robert - N9EF
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
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>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>>

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n7ws

Re: K3 S Meter behavior

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Yes it does with respect to RF gain.

--- On Wed, 7/14/10, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
The K3 does have a "cure", and that is to set the S-meter to ABS
(absolute) in the Configuration Menu (see the manual). With that
setting, the S-meter does not change with the PRE/ATT/RF Gain.

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 S Meter behavior

In reply to this post by Robert Mitilieri - N9EF

Robert,

You are relying on your S-meter too much IMHO.
If you have an S-3 noise level, the first attack is to turn off the
preamp - if that does not reduce the noise level enough, then turn the
Attenuator ON.
If the noise level is still so high as to be bothersome, turn the RF
Gain control down until the noise level is low enough to be not a bother.

What will you achieve by all that? - well, you will increase the dynamic
range of your receiver - there is no sense in allowing the ambient noise
to activate the AGC and reduce the receiver sensitivity.

Yes, all that has nothing to do with the actual reading of the S-meter,
but it is just good operating sense.

As far as the S-meter is concerned, either use S-meter Absolute setting
on the K3 or just ignore the reading and give signal reports as you hear
them - 59 (or 599) for a good strong signal, S-7 for perfect copy from a
not so strong signal and S-5 for all the others that you can copy with
some difficulty. For those below that level, you are not copying them
anyway, so a signal report number is a moot point.

The K3 provides S-meter calibration capability in the menu. Set it for
your own preferences, but I am suggesting that you use the S-meter only
for relative comparisons between signals (for the guy who is asking you
to evaluate the front to back ratio for his beam antenna), and not as an
absolute for giving S-readings to other stations - for that, use your
ears. Consider that in a contest, everyone is 59 (or 5nn) - vary from
that and the other op will have trouble copying you because he is
expecting to hear the "59 or 5nn" in the rhythm of the exchange.

73,
Don W3FPR

Robert Mitilieri - N9EF wrote:

> Increasing the RF gain does deflect the meter upwards. I should have mentioned that there is an S3 noise floor. Here's the steps that I followed:
>
> Tune a signal that's peaking S7 with RF gain fully CW
> Tune away from any signal (S3 noise) adjust the RF gain CCW until the meter reads S5
> Tune that same signal that was peaking S7 but now he's peaking S9 +10db.
>
> If I then increase the RF gain the signal returns to peaking at S7.
>
> I can reproduce this behavior with signals at any level
>
> On Jul 14, 2010, at 10:34 PM, Garry Shapiro wrote:
>
>
>

The Smiths

Re: K3 S Meter behavior

I'm sorry Don, I know that you're trying to be helpful here. And your advice about turning on the Attenuator, and turning off the pre is all good advice for sure. But honestly.. Let's be serious.. We're not all contesters, and there are actually some of us that really hate that whole 599 5/9 report when it's not warranted.

I for one would like to be able to count on my meter to tell me the actual signal level of a station I'm talking to. I'm sure that Wayne intended this much as well. This is a $1900 plus rig, it should be accurate based on the 50uv that you suggested that he set it to with an S9.

Sure we can all GUESS at what a persons RST is, and of course I've done it too..

But giving advice to ignore the S meter is just a way of saying you don't know what to tell the guy.

If that's the case, then just don't say anything, or tell him what you can to fix the problem. Your answer was no better than someone that gets directions from a person that has no idea where the address he's been asked for is, but he just feels like he HAS to help, so he guides the people asking in the wrong direction.

The answer is, I've never seen this issue before where turning down the RF gain will cause a signal to Improve in S meter strength. Especially not on my K3. If that were the case I would keep lowering my RF gain all day long until everyone was an S9. There's SOMETHING going on with your rig.

Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check your S meter calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else like the Pre-amp on causing an error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have the Sub receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up causing it to look like it's getting stronger. These are some of the things that I can offer you. None of them may be the case, but at least it's a starting spot, not just an "Ignore" your 2,000 dollar rig's S meter.

559 still MEANS Receive Excellent, Signal 5 S UNITS, Tone Excellent.

> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 00:30:07 -0400
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
>
> Robert,
>
> You are relying on your S-meter too much IMHO.
> Yes, all that has nothing to do with the actual reading of the S-meter,
> but it is just good operating sense.

just ignore the reading and give signal reports as you hear
> them - 59 (or 599) for a good strong signal, S-7 for perfect copy from a
> not so strong signal and S-5 for all the others that you can copy with
> some difficulty. For those below that level, you are not copying them
> anyway, so a signal report number is a moot point.

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David Gilbert

Re: K3 S Meter behavior

Just curious ... how do you factor in the uncertainty of the gain/loss
of your antenna and any impact of its pattern, both bearing and azimuth
relative to the actual arrival angle, while you're trying to accurately
tell the guy on the other end how strong his RF is as it crosses your
property line? I'd be willing to bet that there is more variability in
that than there is inaccuracy in the K3 S-meter. You're just kidding
yourself if you think differently.

73,
Dave AB7E

On 7/14/2010 11:03 PM, The Smiths wrote:

> I'm sorry Don, I know that you're trying to be helpful here. And your advice about turning on the Attenuator, and turning off the pre is all good advice for sure. But honestly.. Let's be serious.. We're not all contesters, and there are actually some of us that really hate that whole 599 5/9 report when it's not warranted.
>
> I for one would like to be able to count on my meter to tell me the actual signal level of a station I'm talking to. I'm sure that Wayne intended this much as well. This is a $1900 plus rig, it should be accurate based on the 50uv that you suggested that he set it to with an S9.
>
>
>
> Sure we can all GUESS at what a persons RST is, and of course I've done it too..
>
> But giving advice to ignore the S meter is just a way of saying you don't know what to tell the guy.
>
> If that's the case, then just don't say anything, or tell him what you can to fix the problem. Your answer was no better than someone that gets directions from a person that has no idea where the address he's been asked for is, but he just feels like he HAS to help, so he guides the people asking in the wrong direction.
>
>
>
> The answer is, I've never seen this issue before where turning down the RF gain will cause a signal to Improve in S meter strength. Especially not on my K3. If that were the case I would keep lowering my RF gain all day long until everyone was an S9. There's SOMETHING going on with your rig.
>
>
>
> Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check your S meter calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else like the Pre-amp on causing an error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have the Sub receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up causing it to look like it's getting stronger. These are some of the things that I can offer you. None of them may be the case, but at least it's a starting spot, not just an "Ignore" your 2,000 dollar rig's S meter.
>
>
>
> 559 still MEANS Receive Excellent, Signal 5 S UNITS, Tone Excellent.
>
>
>> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 00:30:07 -0400
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> CC: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
>>
>> Robert,
>>
>> You are relying on your S-meter too much IMHO.
>> Yes, all that has nothing to do with the actual reading of the S-meter,
>> but it is just good operating sense.
>>
> just ignore the reading and give signal reports as you hear
>
>> them - 59 (or 599) for a good strong signal, S-7 for perfect copy from a
>> not so strong signal and S-5 for all the others that you can copy with
>> some difficulty. For those below that level, you are not copying them
>> anyway, so a signal report number is a moot point.
>>
>

Robert Mitilieri - N9EF

Re: K3 S Meter behavior

In reply to this post by The Smiths

Thanks all for your comments. It's nice to get so much feedback so fast!

While I'm not very concerned about this, I do like to use my S meter to give the Strength report and believe that an S7 signal should read S7 even if the RF gain is turned down a bit (just for info, I set the S meter to Absolute and have PRE and ATT off, don't have a Sub rcvr installed). I've heard many perfectly readable signals that sounded like they were S9 but were, to my surprise, an S3 or S5. Except for contests I like to send and receive accurate strength reports.

Last night I ordered an XG2 and will align RF gain and the S meter when it arrives. I'll post again once I've completed the alignment. Till then I'll be on the air enjoying my awesome K3!

On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:03 AM, The Smiths wrote:
>
> Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check your S meter calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else like the Pre-amp on causing an error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have the Sub receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up causing it to look like it's getting stronger. r.
>

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drewko

Re: K3 S Meter behavior

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Don, I don't see that to be the case. The action of the s-meter in ABS
mode does change when the RF Gain has been reduced. If you turn the RF
Gain to 12 o'clock the s-meter goes to S9+30db.

73,
Drew
AF2Z

On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:34:22 -0400, Don W3FPR wrote:

>Robert,
>
>The K3 does have a "cure", and that is to set the S-meter to ABS
>(absolute) in the Configuration Menu (see the manual). With that
>setting, the S-meter does not change with the PRE/ATT/RF Gain.
>
>73,
>Don W3FPR

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drewko

Re: K3 S Meter behavior

In reply to this post by The Smiths

The way I understand it, turning donw the RF Gain does not "improve"
the signal's s-meter strength. The increasing level of the s-meter as
you reduce the RF Gain indicates the level that a signal would need to
attain in order to be heard. For example, if you turn the RF Gain to
12 o'clock you will only be able to detect signals that are approx
S9+30db or greater.

Personally, I would prefer that the s-meter not operate in this way in
ABS mode. RF Gain should have no effect on the s-meter action when in
ABS mode, just as ATT and PRE do not.

73,
Drew
AF2Z

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:03:19 +0000, The Smiths wrote:

>
>
>The answer is, I've never seen this issue before where turning down the RF gain will cause a signal to Improve in S meter strength. Especially not on my K3. If that were the case I would keep lowering my RF gain all day long until everyone was an S9. There's SOMETHING going on with your rig.
>
>
>
>Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check your S meter calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else like the Pre-amp on causing an error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have the Sub receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up causing it to look like it's getting stronger. These are some of the things that I can offer you. None of them may be the case, but at least it's a starting spot, not just an "Ignore" your 2,000 dollar rig's S meter.
>
>
>
>559 still MEANS Receive Excellent, Signal 5 S UNITS, Tone Excellent.
>

Richard-3

Re: K3 S Meter behavior

In reply to this post by Robert Mitilieri - N9EF

I don't really understand, but would be interested in more discussion on
this. I think I understand that the apparent power of a signal to your
ears/brain may vary even though the actual received power is the same.

Commercials on TV seems much louder than the shows these days, but I'm
hearing that the actual power stays the same.

We can alter the TX or RX equalization in the K3, I think that means we
can use a standard 100 watts, but change the apparent "loudness" we hear
by focusing the power in the audio bands that are best heard or for the
best intelligibility, and that varies according to age, long proximity
to artillery/machines, and other factors. The Heil 4/5 mics give the
same effect.

That seems to mean that a "standard" S7 signal could sound like
something else. I wonder how meaningful an S meter reading is. It
seems that it is more important to tell the other op how well you are
receiving their message (as apposed to their signal strength) and that
is the result of more than the meter reading.

Rich
NU6T

On 7/15/2010 5:49 AM, Robert Mitilieri - N9EF wrote:

> Thanks all for your comments. It's nice to get so much feedback so fast!
>
> While I'm not very concerned about this, I do like to use my S meter to give the Strength report and believe that an S7 signal should read S7 even if the RF gain is turned down a bit (just for info, I set the S meter to Absolute and have PRE and ATT off, don't have a Sub rcvr installed). I've heard many perfectly readable signals that sounded like they were S9 but were, to my surprise, an S3 or S5. Except for contests I like to send and receive accurate strength reports.
>
> Last night I ordered an XG2 and will align RF gain and the S meter when it arrives. I'll post again once I've completed the alignment. Till then I'll be on the air enjoying my awesome K3!
>
>
> On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:03 AM, The Smiths wrote:
>
>> Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check your S meter calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else like the Pre-amp on causing an error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have the Sub receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up causing it to look like it's getting stronger. r.
>>
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
>

Paul Milward

Re: K3 S Meter behavior

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Don
I performed both functions and they pretty much delivered the expexted results.
However, I noticed something I consider counter-intuitive. It is possible to
engage PRE and ATT simultaneously. Is there any advantage to this?

Paul, NU4C

________________________________

>From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
>To: Robert Mitilieri - N9EF <[hidden email]>
>Cc: [hidden email]
>Sent: Thu, July 15, 2010 12:30:07 AM
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior

>Robert,

>You are relying on your S-meter too much IMHO.
>If you have an S-3 noise level, the first attack is to turn off the
>preamp - if that does not reduce the noise level enough, then turn the
>Attenuator ON. <snip>
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ussv dharma

Re: K3 S Meter behavior

In reply to this post by Richard-3

Aloha Peoples"

I rarely ever give the other station an s meter reading, Instead I usually describe how I am receiving him. S meter readings dont seem to tell me how well I am understanding what is being said by the other station.

Grandmaw Susan
If you don't change direction you WILL arrive exactly where you're headed!! Susan Meckley, Skipper W7KFI-mm AFA9SM USSV DHARMA

--- On Thu, 7/15/10, Richard Hill <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Richard Hill <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Thursday, July 15, 2010, 3:58 AM
> I don't really understand, but would
> be interested in more discussion on
> this. I think I understand that the apparent power of
> a signal to your
> ears/brain may vary even though the actual received power
> is the same.
>
> Commercials on TV seems much louder than the shows these
> days, but I'm
> hearing that the actual power stays the same.
>
> We can alter the TX or RX equalization in the K3, I think
> that means we
> can use a standard 100 watts, but change the apparent
> "loudness" we hear
> by focusing the power in the audio bands that are best
> heard or for the
> best intelligibility, and that varies according to age,
> long proximity
> to artillery/machines, and other factors. The Heil
> 4/5 mics give the
> same effect.
>
> That seems to mean that a "standard" S7 signal could sound
> like
> something else. I wonder how meaningful an S meter
> reading is. It
> seems that it is more important to tell the other op how
> well you are
> receiving their message (as apposed to their signal
> strength) and that
> is the result of more than the meter reading.
>
> Rich
> NU6T
>
> On 7/15/2010 5:49 AM, Robert Mitilieri - N9EF wrote:
> > Thanks all for your comments. It's nice to get so much
> feedback so fast!
> >
> > While I'm not very concerned about this, I do like to
> use my S meter to give the Strength report and believe that
> an S7 signal should read S7 even if the RF gain is turned
> down a bit (just for info, I set the S meter to Absolute and
> have PRE and ATT off, don't have a Sub rcvr installed). I've
> heard many perfectly readable signals that sounded
> like they were S9 but were, to my surprise, an S3 or S5.
> Except for contests I like to send and receive accurate
> strength reports.
> >
> > Last night I ordered an XG2 and will align RF gain and
> the S meter when it arrives. I'll post again once I've
> completed the alignment. Till then I'll be on the air
> enjoying my awesome K3!
> >
> >
> > On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:03 AM, The Smiths wrote:
> >
> >> Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft
> Utility, check your S meter calibration. Make sure that you
> don't have something else like the Pre-amp on causing an
> error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have
> the Sub receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up
> causing it to look like it's getting stronger. r.
> >>
> >>
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
> >
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Richard-3

Re: K3 S Meter behavior

In reply to this post by Richard-3

I do understand that my statement below may not make sense for digital
modes <grin>.
Rich
NU6T

On 7/15/2010 6:58 AM, Richard Hill wrote:

> I don't really understand, but would be interested in more discussion on
> this. I think I understand that the apparent power of a signal to your
> ears/brain may vary even though the actual received power is the same.
>
> Commercials on TV seems much louder than the shows these days, but I'm
> hearing that the actual power stays the same.
>
> We can alter the TX or RX equalization in the K3, I think that means we
> can use a standard 100 watts, but change the apparent "loudness" we hear
> by focusing the power in the audio bands that are best heard or for the
> best intelligibility, and that varies according to age, long proximity
> to artillery/machines, and other factors. The Heil 4/5 mics give the
> same effect.
>
> That seems to mean that a "standard" S7 signal could sound like
> something else. I wonder how meaningful an S meter reading is. It
> seems that it is more important to tell the other op how well you are
> receiving their message (as apposed to their signal strength) and that
> is the result of more than the meter reading.
>
> Rich
> NU6T
>
> On 7/15/2010 5:49 AM, Robert Mitilieri - N9EF wrote:
>
>> Thanks all for your comments. It's nice to get so much feedback so fast!
>>
>> While I'm not very concerned about this, I do like to use my S meter to give the Strength report and believe that an S7 signal should read S7 even if the RF gain is turned down a bit (just for info, I set the S meter to Absolute and have PRE and ATT off, don't have a Sub rcvr installed). I've heard many perfectly readable signals that sounded like they were S9 but were, to my surprise, an S3 or S5. Except for contests I like to send and receive accurate strength reports.
>>
>> Last night I ordered an XG2 and will align RF gain and the S meter when it arrives. I'll post again once I've completed the alignment. Till then I'll be on the air enjoying my awesome K3!
>>
>>
>> On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:03 AM, The Smiths wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check your S meter calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else like the Pre-amp on causing an error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have the Sub receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up causing it to look like it's getting stronger. r.
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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K5WA

Re: K3 S Meter behavior

In reply to this post by Robert Mitilieri - N9EF

TheSmiths said:

"559 still MEANS Receive Excellent, Signal 5 S UNITS, Tone Excellent."

Actually, this statement is inaccurate and the RST code never specifies S
meter readings but this perception is a common misconception.

559 means Readability Excellent, Fairly Strong Signals, Perfect tone, no
trace of ripple or modulation of any kind.

The S-meter reading has little to do with the RST or RS report. RST is a
subjective code and depends on an operator's opinion of the signal. An
S-meter reading is a stand alone method of comparing relative signal
strength that may help support an operator's opinion when needed.

The RST code is fully explained at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RST_code

73,

Bob K5WA

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The Smiths

Re: K3 S Meter behavior

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

What a silly question.. Again, some of you guys just have to be so over technical about EVERYTHING. I'm certain that sometimes being TOO smart can be a detriment to your own self. This is an S meter, it's used by some to give an S report. Part of an RST.. This isn't a scientific calibration device.. If you're talking to someone in XYZ QTH and you have your antenna pointed at XYZ's location, or you have an omni directional antenna and it's receiving XYZ location at 4 S units, and You can hear them clearly and their tone is correct.. They have an RS(T) of 54(9).

Sorry dave, it's really just that simple. If you've set a "standard" for your S meter during it's calibration then S 4 means 4.. Not oh my goodness is there gain on my antenna, do I need to factor in his azimuth and the arrival angle of his signal to my antenna.. JUST STOP, and enjoy your hobby for a change, don't over think it. Or even worse, try to be technical to impress people on the reflector. We all know that there are a lot of guys on here that know a LOT about a LOT of things... But they don't need to try to impress nor answer EVERYONE with their knowledge EVERY time. Save it for when it really counts, not on how to read an S meter.

> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:27:40 -0700
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
>
>
> Just curious ... how do you factor in the uncertainty of the gain/loss
> of your antenna and any impact of its pattern, both bearing and azimuth
> relative to the actual arrival angle, while you're trying to accurately
> tell the guy on the other end how strong his RF is as it crosses your
> property line? I'd be willing to bet that there is more variability in
> that than there is inaccuracy in the K3 S-meter. You're just kidding
> yourself if you think differently.
>
> 73,
> Dave AB7E
>
>
> On 7/14/2010 11:03 PM, The Smiths wrote:
> > I'm sorry Don, I know that you're trying to be helpful here. And your advice about turning on the Attenuator, and turning off the pre is all good advice for sure. But honestly.. Let's be serious.. We're not all contesters, and there are actually some of us that really hate that whole 599 5/9 report when it's not warranted.
> >
> > I for one would like to be able to count on my meter to tell me the actual signal level of a station I'm talking to. I'm sure that Wayne intended this much as well. This is a $1900 plus rig, it should be accurate based on the 50uv that you suggested that he set it to with an S9.
> >
> >
> >
> > Sure we can all GUESS at what a persons RST is, and of course I've done it too..
> >
> > But giving advice to ignore the S meter is just a way of saying you don't know what to tell the guy.
> >
> > If that's the case, then just don't say anything, or tell him what you can to fix the problem. Your answer was no better than someone that gets directions from a person that has no idea where the address he's been asked for is, but he just feels like he HAS to help, so he guides the people asking in the wrong direction.
> >
> >
> >
> > The answer is, I've never seen this issue before where turning down the RF gain will cause a signal to Improve in S meter strength. Especially not on my K3. If that were the case I would keep lowering my RF gain all day long until everyone was an S9. There's SOMETHING going on with your rig.
> >
> >
> >
> > Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check your S meter calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else like the Pre-amp on causing an error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have the Sub receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up causing it to look like it's getting stronger. These are some of the things that I can offer you. None of them may be the case, but at least it's a starting spot, not just an "Ignore" your 2,000 dollar rig's S meter.
> >
> >
> >
> > 559 still MEANS Receive Excellent, Signal 5 S UNITS, Tone Excellent.
> >
> >
> >> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 00:30:07 -0400
> >> From: [hidden email]
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >> CC: [hidden email]
> >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
> >>
> >> Robert,
> >>
> >> You are relying on your S-meter too much IMHO.
> >> Yes, all that has nothing to do with the actual reading of the S-meter,
> >> but it is just good operating sense.
> >>
> > just ignore the reading and give signal reports as you hear
> >
> >> them - 59 (or 599) for a good strong signal, S-7 for perfect copy from a
> >> not so strong signal and S-5 for all the others that you can copy with
> >> some difficulty. For those below that level, you are not copying them
> >> anyway, so a signal report number is a moot point.
> >>
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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Phil Hystad-3

Re: K3 S Meter behavior

As far as I have ever known, the S-meter reading has nothing to do with the S of RST signal report. The S is itself defined as the somewhat subjective measure of how strong the signal appears to be (see the definition of each of the numbers from 1 to 9). I do admit that many people use the S-meter reading as some kind of measure for giving the S of RST but officially the S of RST is not an S-meter value.

On Jul 15, 2010, at 9:08 AM, The Smiths wrote:

>
> What a silly question.. Again, some of you guys just have to be so over technical about EVERYTHING. I'm certain that sometimes being TOO smart can be a detriment to your own self. This is an S meter, it's used by some to give an S report. Part of an RST.. This isn't a scientific calibration device.. If you're talking to someone in XYZ QTH and you have your antenna pointed at XYZ's location, or you have an omni directional antenna and it's receiving XYZ location at 4 S units, and You can hear them clearly and their tone is correct.. They have an RS(T) of 54(9).
>
>
>
> Sorry dave, it's really just that simple. If you've set a "standard" for your S meter during it's calibration then S 4 means 4.. Not oh my goodness is there gain on my antenna, do I need to factor in his azimuth and the arrival angle of his signal to my antenna.. JUST STOP, and enjoy your hobby for a change, don't over think it. Or even worse, try to be technical to impress people on the reflector. We all know that there are a lot of guys on here that know a LOT about a LOT of things... But they don't need to try to impress nor answer EVERYONE with their knowledge EVERY time. Save it for when it really counts, not on how to read an S meter.
>
>
>
>
>
>> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:27:40 -0700
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
>>
>>
>> Just curious ... how do you factor in the uncertainty of the gain/loss
>> of your antenna and any impact of its pattern, both bearing and azimuth
>> relative to the actual arrival angle, while you're trying to accurately
>> tell the guy on the other end how strong his RF is as it crosses your
>> property line? I'd be willing to bet that there is more variability in
>> that than there is inaccuracy in the K3 S-meter. You're just kidding
>> yourself if you think differently.
>>
>> 73,
>> Dave AB7E
>>
>>
>> On 7/14/2010 11:03 PM, The Smiths wrote:
>>> I'm sorry Don, I know that you're trying to be helpful here. And your advice about turning on the Attenuator, and turning off the pre is all good advice for sure. But honestly.. Let's be serious.. We're not all contesters, and there are actually some of us that really hate that whole 599 5/9 report when it's not warranted.
>>>
>>> I for one would like to be able to count on my meter to tell me the actual signal level of a station I'm talking to. I'm sure that Wayne intended this much as well. This is a $1900 plus rig, it should be accurate based on the 50uv that you suggested that he set it to with an S9.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sure we can all GUESS at what a persons RST is, and of course I've done it too..
>>>
>>> But giving advice to ignore the S meter is just a way of saying you don't know what to tell the guy.
>>>
>>> If that's the case, then just don't say anything, or tell him what you can to fix the problem. Your answer was no better than someone that gets directions from a person that has no idea where the address he's been asked for is, but he just feels like he HAS to help, so he guides the people asking in the wrong direction.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The answer is, I've never seen this issue before where turning down the RF gain will cause a signal to Improve in S meter strength. Especially not on my K3. If that were the case I would keep lowering my RF gain all day long until everyone was an S9. There's SOMETHING going on with your rig.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Check your RF gain calibration using the Elecraft Utility, check your S meter calibration. Make sure that you don't have something else like the Pre-amp on causing an error in the reading. Make sure that you don't have the Sub receiver on and the Sub AF audio up, or RF up causing it to look like it's getting stronger. These are some of the things that I can offer you. None of them may be the case, but at least it's a starting spot, not just an "Ignore" your 2,000 dollar rig's S meter.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 559 still MEANS Receive Excellent, Signal 5 S UNITS, Tone Excellent.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 00:30:07 -0400
>>>> From: [hidden email]
>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>> CC: [hidden email]
>>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
>>>>
>>>> Robert,
>>>>
>>>> You are relying on your S-meter too much IMHO.
>>>> Yes, all that has nothing to do with the actual reading of the S-meter,
>>>> but it is just good operating sense.
>>>>
>>> just ignore the reading and give signal reports as you hear
>>>
>>>> them - 59 (or 599) for a good strong signal, S-7 for perfect copy from a
>>>> not so strong signal and S-5 for all the others that you can copy with
>>>> some difficulty. For those below that level, you are not copying them
>>>> anyway, so a signal report number is a moot point.
>>>>
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
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W8JI

Re: K3 S Meter behavior

In reply to this post by drewko

> Personally, I would prefer that the s-meter not operate in this way in
> ABS mode. RF Gain should have no effect on the s-meter action when in
> ABS mode, just as ATT and PRE do not.

It would probably screw up (highly technical term) how the system works, or
require a separate receiver just for the S meter.

The RF gain must be ahead of the DSP system. This means the real signal
level to the DSP could be reduced 30 dB or even significantly more than that
amount.

How and why would someone design a DSP system that could measure the level
on a signal that was not actually present??? There is no cheap or easy way
to do that, so Elecraft does what everyone else does. Ever since receivers
began, the RF gain will either affect the absolute S meter reading in
relationship to input level, or the S meter will show the increase in gain
reduction by increasing resting S meter reading as the gain is reduced.

I think you want something that cannot be done.

Besides, S meter are pretty much meaningless anyway. I only use mine to tell
me when I need to use an attenuator pad or a preamp.

73 Tom

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Robert Mitilieri - N9EF

Re: K3 S Meter behavior

In reply to this post by K5WA

Actually the S meter is used so the Strength of the signal report is *not* subjective, that's reserved for Readability. I firmly believe that the Strength report must *not* be subjective, why else ever put a meter to measure signal Strength? In the case of signal Strength we *must* differentiate between perception and reality so we can let different stations know how strong their signals are received at our location, not how loud they sound; the two can be vastly different.

...and use of the S meter to report signal strength is supported by the referenced link:

"The S stands for "Strength". Strength is an assessment of how powerful the received signal is at the receiving location. Although an accurate signal strength meter can determine a quantitative value for signal strength, in practice this portion of the RST code is a qualitative assessment, often made based on the S meter of the radio receiver at the location of signal reception."

On Jul 15, 2010, at 11:00 AM, K5WA wrote:

> TheSmiths said:
>
> "559 still MEANS Receive Excellent, Signal 5 S UNITS, Tone Excellent."
>
> Actually, this statement is inaccurate and the RST code never specifies S meter readings but this perception is a common misconception.
>
> 559 means Readability Excellent, Fairly Strong Signals, Perfect tone, no trace of ripple or modulation of any kind.
>
> The S-meter reading has little to do with the RST or RS report. RST is a subjective code and depends on an operator's opinion of the signal. An S-meter reading is a stand alone method of comparing relative signal
> strength that may help support an operator's opinion when needed.
>
> The RST code is fully explained at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RST_code
>

The Smiths

Re: K3 S Meter behavior

In reply to this post by Richard-3

Rich,

You DO tell the other person how you are "receiving" them.. That's the R part of the report READABILITY... If you have difficultly with copy of their signal you can go from 1 to 5 with that report. The S meter still tells you how well their signal strength is at your QTH.

Even if you have a Superdupper rig that can filter every bit of noise out of the signal chain, and you can hear them as if they were sitting right next to you, it doesn't mean that the standard for Signal strength has changed. The guy on the other end of the radio just wants to know how well he's pushing your meter up and down with his antenna set up (and your antenna as part of that factor)..

The readability part will let him know if his rig is doing a good job of filtering the noise so he can copy you. I've had RST reports of 379 because the other person could clearly see that my signal strength was there, but the QRN was keeping him from having clear copy of it. With your method and a loud noise floor I would have most likely got a 419 instead.

> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:58:27 -0700
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 S Meter behavior
>
> I don't really understand, but would be interested in more discussion on
> this. I think I understand that the apparent power of a signal to your
> ears/brain may vary even though the actual received power is the same.
>
> Commercials on TV seems much louder than the shows these days, but I'm
> hearing that the actual power stays the same.
>
> We can alter the TX or RX equalization in the K3, I think that means we
> can use a standard 100 watts, but change the apparent "loudness" we hear
> by focusing the power in the audio bands that are best heard or for the
> best intelligibility, and that varies according to age, long proximity
> to artillery/machines, and other factors. The Heil 4/5 mics give the
> same effect.
>
> That seems to mean that a "standard" S7 signal could sound like
> something else. I wonder how meaningful an S meter reading is. It
> seems that it is more important to tell the other op how well you are
> receiving their message (as apposed to their signal strength) and that
> is the result of more than the meter reading.
>
>

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