K3 TX DELAY
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I'm running an older borrowed K3 to get various I/O issues worked out while awaiting arrival of my K3S. I am interfacing the K3 into an older tube amp with large open frame relays for antenna IN and OUT. The maximum TX DELAY limit of 20 ms on the borrowed K3 is not enough to avoid hot switching the amp output relay contacts. I had the delay in my old FT1000MP set for 30 ms which was adequate with some margin (it had a max delay of 40 ms I believe). Are there any options in newer K3's for more than 20 ms of TX DELAY? Hopefully the K3S will have more than 20 ms or my options for QRO are QRT. . hi. 73. . . Dave, W0FLS
______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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Expecting a transceiver to somehow neutralize all amp obsolescence is
putting the burden where it doesn't belong. And it really can't come close to doing the entire job. Existing mod kits from Harbach, W7RY, etc, can convert many older amps internally (all the way back to SB200 SB220) to *excellent* modern status, QSK, modern interface voltages and behavior, good for years of slick operating to come. Array Solutions has an excellent external QSK device, for those who don't want to tackle an internal mod. You didn't say which specific amp with slow frame relays. Many (most?) of these were designed back when the expectation was something like a footswitch or a toggle switch would be used to place the shack in transmit mode. I own an FT1000MP. On CW (only) it has a first in first out bucket brigade delay (menu 7-4 keyer break-in time) which allows it to apply T/R assert to the amp and allow continuously delayed CW up to 30 ms to be transmitted from the MP. With the clunkier amps actually needing the max 30 ms delay like my older AL1200, you had to listen to the input monitor on the MP if you were sending with a key. Listening to the actually sent signal would is so divergent from physical input at 30 ms that many simply can not send CW with it. But it doesn't fix the parallel problem on SSB. Even if the MP's delay was working OK for CW, there is no delay for SSB. This would require a continuous bucket brigade voice delay with sufficient fidelity. That isn't impossible, but a lot more expensive and complex than a faster relay. And it STILL does NOT fix all the issues of clunk involved. This includes the recovery time from T back to R so slow that in contests often the first baud or two of a reply would be lost while the relay is waiting for the contacts to restore the RX path through the amp, which now only has the spring to propel points to normally closed state. IMHO to put it bluntly, any amp relay with T/R duties that won't close in 8 ms is obsolete and needs to be replaced by something modern. The aftermarket mod boards will modify old tube amps for QSK, low voltage low current T/R keying (soft key), step start power-on etc. Amps modified with current QSK circuitry will switch quickly enough to support VOX on SSB. All the Ameritron amps have superior aftermarket QSK mods available, in addition to the manufacturer's own QSK option. W2CS helped me QSK my AL1200 with the same circuit he used to upgrade his SB220. This was before the current crop of excellent mods were available. No excuses. 73, Guy K2AV On Saturday, May 30, 2015, David Raymond <[hidden email]> wrote: > > I'm running an older borrowed K3 to get various I/O issues worked out while awaiting arrival of my K3S. I am interfacing the K3 into an older tube amp with large open frame relays for antenna IN and OUT. The maximum TX DELAY limit of 20 ms on the borrowed K3 is not enough to avoid hot switching the amp output relay contacts. I had the delay in my old FT1000MP set for 30 ms which was adequate with some margin (it had a max delay of 40 ms I believe). Are there any options in newer K3's for more than 20 ms of TX DELAY? Hopefully the K3S will have more than 20 ms or my options for QRO are QRT. . hi. 73. . . Dave, W0FLS > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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Agreed. With a K3 you don't need any special sequencing -- just replace the relay with a reed relay for input and a vacuum relay for output (or two vacuum relays). It is much more pleasant even if you don't use QSK or VOX.
Vic 4X6GP/K2VCO > On May 31, 2015, at 7:21 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Expecting a transceiver to somehow neutralize all amp obsolescence is > putting the burden where it doesn't belong. And it really can't come > close to doing the entire job. > > Existing mod kits from Harbach, W7RY, etc, can convert many older amps > internally (all the way back to SB200 SB220) to *excellent* modern > status, QSK, modern interface voltages and behavior, good for years of > slick operating to come. Array Solutions has an excellent external QSK > device, for those who don't want to tackle an internal mod. > > You didn't say which specific amp with slow frame relays. Many (most?) > of these were designed back when the expectation was something like a > footswitch or a toggle switch would be used to place the shack in > transmit mode. > > I own an FT1000MP. On CW (only) it has a first in first out bucket > brigade delay (menu 7-4 keyer break-in time) which allows it to apply > T/R assert to the amp and allow continuously delayed CW up to 30 ms to > be transmitted from the MP. With the clunkier amps actually needing > the max 30 ms delay like my older AL1200, you had to listen to the > input monitor on the MP if you were sending with a key. Listening to > the actually sent signal would is so divergent from physical input at > 30 ms that many simply can not send CW with it. > > But it doesn't fix the parallel problem on SSB. > > Even if the MP's delay was working OK for CW, there is no delay for > SSB. This would require a continuous bucket brigade voice delay with > sufficient fidelity. That isn't impossible, but a lot more expensive > and complex than a faster relay. And it STILL does NOT fix all the > issues of clunk involved. This includes the recovery time from T back > to R so slow that in contests often the first baud or two of a reply > would be lost while the relay is waiting for the contacts to restore > the RX path through the amp, which now only has the spring to propel > points to normally closed state. > > IMHO to put it bluntly, any amp relay with T/R duties that won't close > in 8 ms is obsolete and needs to be replaced by something modern. > > The aftermarket mod boards will modify old tube amps for QSK, low > voltage low current T/R keying (soft key), step start power-on etc. > Amps modified with current QSK circuitry will switch quickly enough to > support VOX on SSB. All the Ameritron amps have superior aftermarket > QSK mods available, in addition to the manufacturer's own QSK option. > > W2CS helped me QSK my AL1200 with the same circuit he used to upgrade > his SB220. This was before the current crop of excellent mods were > available. No excuses. > > 73, Guy K2AV > >> On Saturday, May 30, 2015, David Raymond <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> I'm running an older borrowed K3 to get various I/O issues worked out while awaiting arrival of my K3S. I am interfacing the K3 into an older tube amp with large open frame relays for antenna IN and OUT. The maximum TX DELAY limit of 20 ms on the borrowed K3 is not enough to avoid hot switching the amp output relay contacts. I had the delay in my old FT1000MP set for 30 ms which was adequate with some margin (it had a max delay of 40 ms I believe). Are there any options in newer K3's for more than 20 ms of TX DELAY? Hopefully the K3S will have more than 20 ms or my options for QRO are QRT. . hi. 73. . . Dave, W0FLS >> ______________________________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> Message delivered to [hidden email] > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Guy Olinger K2AV
On Sat,5/30/2015 9:21 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
> IMHO to put it bluntly, any amp relay with T/R duties that won't close > in 8 ms is obsolete and needs to be replaced by something modern. Yep. And it's more than modern, it's CHEAP. That stuff from the MS company are all el cheapo grande. My Ten Tec Titans and Hercules amps, designed in the early 80s (the Titans by K4XU, I learned at Visalia this year), use quality vacuum relays and are VERY happy with 8 msec. Thank you, Dick, and thank you to the original Ten Tec gang, especially Al Kahn, K4FW, the true predecessor to Elecraft as a class act! Sadly, they're all SK. Al was one of the two founders of ElectroVoice, another very high class US company when they ran it. 73, Jim K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Vic Rosenthal
Look at W8ZR's excellent article in the current issue of QST. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 2015-05-31 2:50 AM, Vic Rosenthal wrote: > Agreed. With a K3 you don't need any special sequencing -- just replace the relay with a reed relay for input and a vacuum relay for output (or two vacuum relays). It is much more pleasant even if you don't use QSK or VOX. > > Vic 4X6GP/K2VCO > >> On May 31, 2015, at 7:21 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Expecting a transceiver to somehow neutralize all amp obsolescence is >> putting the burden where it doesn't belong. And it really can't come >> close to doing the entire job. >> >> Existing mod kits from Harbach, W7RY, etc, can convert many older amps >> internally (all the way back to SB200 SB220) to *excellent* modern >> status, QSK, modern interface voltages and behavior, good for years of >> slick operating to come. Array Solutions has an excellent external QSK >> device, for those who don't want to tackle an internal mod. >> >> You didn't say which specific amp with slow frame relays. Many (most?) >> of these were designed back when the expectation was something like a >> footswitch or a toggle switch would be used to place the shack in >> transmit mode. >> >> I own an FT1000MP. On CW (only) it has a first in first out bucket >> brigade delay (menu 7-4 keyer break-in time) which allows it to apply >> T/R assert to the amp and allow continuously delayed CW up to 30 ms to >> be transmitted from the MP. With the clunkier amps actually needing >> the max 30 ms delay like my older AL1200, you had to listen to the >> input monitor on the MP if you were sending with a key. Listening to >> the actually sent signal would is so divergent from physical input at >> 30 ms that many simply can not send CW with it. >> >> But it doesn't fix the parallel problem on SSB. >> >> Even if the MP's delay was working OK for CW, there is no delay for >> SSB. This would require a continuous bucket brigade voice delay with >> sufficient fidelity. That isn't impossible, but a lot more expensive >> and complex than a faster relay. And it STILL does NOT fix all the >> issues of clunk involved. This includes the recovery time from T back >> to R so slow that in contests often the first baud or two of a reply >> would be lost while the relay is waiting for the contacts to restore >> the RX path through the amp, which now only has the spring to propel >> points to normally closed state. >> >> IMHO to put it bluntly, any amp relay with T/R duties that won't close >> in 8 ms is obsolete and needs to be replaced by something modern. >> >> The aftermarket mod boards will modify old tube amps for QSK, low >> voltage low current T/R keying (soft key), step start power-on etc. >> Amps modified with current QSK circuitry will switch quickly enough to >> support VOX on SSB. All the Ameritron amps have superior aftermarket >> QSK mods available, in addition to the manufacturer's own QSK option. >> >> W2CS helped me QSK my AL1200 with the same circuit he used to upgrade >> his SB220. This was before the current crop of excellent mods were >> available. No excuses. >> >> 73, Guy K2AV >> >>> On Saturday, May 30, 2015, David Raymond <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> I'm running an older borrowed K3 to get various I/O issues worked out while awaiting arrival of my K3S. I am interfacing the K3 into an older tube amp with large open frame relays for antenna IN and OUT. The maximum TX DELAY limit of 20 ms on the borrowed K3 is not enough to avoid hot switching the amp output relay contacts. I had the delay in my old FT1000MP set for 30 ms which was adequate with some margin (it had a max delay of 40 ms I believe). Are there any options in newer K3's for more than 20 ms of TX DELAY? Hopefully the K3S will have more than 20 ms or my options for QRO are QRT. . hi. 73. . . Dave, W0FLS >>> ______________________________________________________________ >>> Elecraft mailing list >>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >>> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >>> >>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >>> Message delivered to [hidden email] >> ______________________________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> Message delivered to [hidden email] > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by David Raymond
>I'm running an older borrowed K3 to get various I/O issues worked out
>while awaiting arrival of my K3S. I am interfacing the K3 into an older tube >amp with large open frame relays for antenna IN and OUT. The maximum >TX DELAY limit of 20 ms on the borrowed K3 is not enough to avoid hot >switching the amp output relay contacts. I had the delay in my old >FT1000MP set for 30 ms which was adequate with some margin (it had a >max delay of 40 ms I believe). Are there any options in newer K3's for >more than 20 ms of TX DELAY? Hopefully the K3S will have more than 20 >ms or my options for QRO are QRT. . hi. 73. . . Dave, W0FLS If I remember correctly, Wayne said that 20ms was as far as he could stretch the TX delay without major changes in the firmware. There is no particular reason to expect that to have changed in the K3S. Also, K2AV is right in saying that one shouldn't expect a modern transceiver to neutralize all the problems of the older generation of amplifiers. The cure for that is to update the amplifier to modern standards. However, it isn't always necessary to modify the amplifier for full QSK if you don't personally require that facility. In some amplifiers, there is also a simpler solution that will probably work with the K3 in non-QSK modes. The circuit referenced below will reduce the switching time of a typical open-frame relay by roughly 50%, bringing the typical 30ms delay down to about 15ms which the K3 can handle. In practice, you would simply set TX DLY in the K3 to 20ms, allowing a little extra time for contact bounce. As well as speeding up the RF changeover relays, the circuit also updates the amplifier's PTT interface to the modern "industry standard" of +12V at a few milliamps. <http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek/in-prac/best-of.htm#speedup> The circuit is fully described in the referenced magazine article (click "April 2002"). 13 years on from the original data of publication, it has earned a good track record. Obviously such a simple circuit cannot magically provide full QSK with slow open-frame relays, but for "the rest of us" it can be a very useful update for older HF amplifiers. It also works well with coaxial relays for VHF. 73 from Ian GM3SEK ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by David Raymond
Perhaps you could use a sequencer such as the DX Engineering TVS-1 to give you more delay time.
I recently bought one to sequence my DXE NCC-1, a receive antenna preamp, my K3 and my KPA500. While I haven't yet figured out how to set the correct delay times for everything it appears to be a well-built unit. Once we finish moving here I'll get back to sorting it out. Good luck and I hope my suggestion helps. (SSB Electronic also makes fine sequencers but they are more pricy than DXE, IIRC). 73, Jeff, NH7RO ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4
One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far is that the WinKeyer has a separate PTT out that has a programmable delay before initiating the CW. This will allow the needed delay without affect the sent CW in any way. Use one here, works well. Used the scope to measure the actual settling time of the open frame relays (about 30 mS is needed to full settle). Measured the K2/K3 delay then added enough with the WinKeyer to insure no hot switching. 73 de dave ab9ca/4 On 5/31/15 7:21 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: > > Look at W8ZR's excellent article in the current issue of QST. > > 73, > > ... Joe, W4TV > > > On 2015-05-31 2:50 AM, Vic Rosenthal wrote: >> Agreed. With a K3 you don't need any special sequencing -- just >> replace the relay with a reed relay for input and a vacuum relay for >> output (or two vacuum relays). It is much more pleasant even if you >> don't use QSK or VOX. >> >> Vic 4X6GP/K2VCO >> Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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On 2015-05-31 1:00 PM, dave wrote:> > One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far is that the WinKeyer has > a separate PTT out that has a programmable delay before initiating > the CW. Unfortunately, that delay only works on CW - there is still no solution for SSB VOX or data modes like RTTY where the rig starts to make RF as soon as PTT is closed. The solution is still to update the amplifier with fast relays like the article by W8ZR. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 2015-05-31 1:00 PM, dave wrote: > > One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far is that the WinKeyer has a > separate PTT out that has a programmable delay before initiating the CW. > This will allow the needed delay without affect the sent CW in any way. > Use one here, works well. > > Used the scope to measure the actual settling time of the open frame > relays (about 30 mS is needed to full settle). Measured the K2/K3 delay > then added enough with the WinKeyer to insure no hot switching. > > 73 de dave > ab9ca/4 > > > > On 5/31/15 7:21 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: >> >> Look at W8ZR's excellent article in the current issue of QST. >> >> 73, >> >> ... Joe, W4TV >> >> >> On 2015-05-31 2:50 AM, Vic Rosenthal wrote: >>> Agreed. With a K3 you don't need any special sequencing -- just >>> replace the relay with a reed relay for input and a vacuum relay for >>> output (or two vacuum relays). It is much more pleasant even if you >>> don't use QSK or VOX. >>> >>> Vic 4X6GP/K2VCO >>> > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by NH7RO
If one insists on using an unmodified slow amplifier, yes a sequencer
would help if the use of the K3 TX Inhibit is used to delay the RF output. Use of that may 'chop' the leading CW elements or initial syllables on SSB and other audio modes, but it can work for the benefit of preventing hot switching of the amp. Given that you would have to build or purchase the sequencer in order to accomplish that feat, I would suggest that doing a QSK mod to the amplifier would be the better solution - resulting in good QSK as well as reducing the 'relay clattering' in the shack. 73, Don W3FPR On 5/31/2015 12:09 PM, Jeff Cathrow wrote: > Perhaps you could use a sequencer such as the DX Engineering TVS-1 to give you more delay time. > > I recently bought one to sequence my DXE NCC-1, a receive antenna preamp, my K3 and my KPA500. While I haven't yet figured out how to set the correct delay times for everything it appears to be a well-built unit. Once we finish moving here I'll get back to sorting it out. > > Good luck and I hope my suggestion helps. (SSB Electronic also makes fine sequencers but they are more pricy than DXE, IIRC). > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by David Raymond
Jim and All,
Not sure if you were really including Dick, K4XU, in your comment about those who are SK. Dick is very much alive and kicking, and living now in Bend, Oregon!!! Dick is a very dedicated CW op, so you can be assured that QSK was a big deal on his "must do" list. I'm not all that amp savvy, but I do know that, except for Ten-Tec and maybe a few others, earlier amp manufacturers were not all that concerned about good QSK. The "MS company" is now offering QSK models, but not sure how good it is. I had an ALS-600 for a while, and it was awful. Fortunately, AD5X came up with a fairly simple mod to convert it. I did the mod, and it made a world of difference--made the amp a lot quieter too! As I said, I don't know much about amps, but considering how simple (and effective) the AD5X mod was for the ALS-600, I don't understand why it was so difficult for all amp makers to properly include that feature. It sure tells me that they didn't take the CW mode very seriously. It was the same way with transceivers for quite a while. Only Ten-Tec seemed to give a hoot! Anyway, I'm now a K-Line user, and happy as a clam! I guess some of the real QRQ folks were having some issues, but think that has now been effectively solved. It sure is nice to have equipment made by a company that listens--and reacts! Dave W7AQK ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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