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K3 Transmitting CW in SSB mode

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Phil Hystad-3

K3 Transmitting CW in SSB mode

I have my K3 enabled to allow the sending of CW in SSB mode. However, I am not sure how this actually works. Therefore, this question.

If the K3 VFO is dialed into 3850 KHz (for example) and the mode is set to SSB and my sidetone monitor of the CW signal is set to 700 Hz (not sure if this matters), what will the other station here if I send something in CW while in SSB mode on my K3. In particular:

1. They are also dialed into the same frequency 3850 KHz, what will they hear: a tone of 700 Hz, a tone of some other audio frequency, or no tone at all. My only assumption is that they are in SSB mode and dialed to the same frequency as I am.

2. They (the other station) are dialed into the same frequency of 3850 but their mode is CW and not SSB while my mode in sending is still SSB. Same questions, what will they hear?

Thanks,

73, phil, K7PEH

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Richard Fjeld-2

Re: K3 Transmitting CW in SSB mode

Phil,
I use that feature on my K3, and I have done it many times.
To answer #1, they say they hear me perfectly when we are on the same
SSB frequency. It has been handy several times.
To answer #2, I think they will be off by their offset frequency.

Dick, n0ce

On 7/25/2016 10:34 PM, Phil Hystad wrote:

> I have my K3 enabled to allow the sending of CW in SSB mode. However, I am not sure how this actually works. Therefore, this question.
>
> If the K3 VFO is dialed into 3850 KHz (for example) and the mode is set to SSB and my sidetone monitor of the CW signal is set to 700 Hz (not sure if this matters), what will the other station here if I send something in CW while in SSB mode on my K3. In particular:
>
> 1. They are also dialed into the same frequency 3850 KHz, what will they hear: a tone of 700 Hz, a tone of some other audio frequency, or no tone at all. My only assumption is that they are in SSB mode and dialed to the same frequency as I am.
>
>
> 2. They (the other station) are dialed into the same frequency of 3850 but their mode is CW and not SSB while my mode in sending is still SSB. Same questions, what will they hear?
>
> Thanks,
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
>
>

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ROBERT HEATH

Re: K3 Transmitting CW in SSB mode

In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3

----- Original Message -----

From: "Phil Hystad" <[hidden email]>
To: "Elecraft Reflector Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 11:34:05 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 Transmitting CW in SSB mode

I have my K3 enabled to allow the sending of CW in SSB mode. However, I am not sure how this actually works. Therefore, this question.

If the K3 VFO is dialed into 3850 KHz (for example) and the mode is set to SSB and my sidetone monitor of the CW signal is set to 700 Hz (not sure if this matters), what will the other station here if I send something in CW while in SSB mode on my K3. In particular:

1. They are also dialed into the same frequency 3850 KHz, what will they hear: a tone of 700 Hz, a tone of some other audio frequency, or no tone at all. My only assumption is that they are in SSB mode and dialed to the same frequency as I am.

2. They (the other station) are dialed into the same frequency of 3850 but their mode is CW and not SSB while my mode in sending is still SSB. Same questions, what will they hear?

Thanks,

73, phil, K7PEH

Hello Phil,

1. When in the CW mode, the actual sending frequency is the frequency seen on the transceiver display (assuming zero XIT). As far as I know this applies to all modern transceivers whether set for LSB or USB CW mode. The receive sidetone offset has nothing to do with this.
2. If you wish a station listening on 3850 kHz LSB to hear a CW signal to yield an audio output of 700 Hz, you must transmit a CW signal at a frequency 700 Hz below 3850 kHz, namely 3849.3 kHz. (If the station were listening on 3850 kHz USB, the CW signal signal would need to be at a frequency of 3850.7 kHz.)

I think the above information covers all the bases. Your question 2 doesn't mean anything to me because I don't believe any modern transceiver will send CW while set for either SSB mode.

An interesting and worthwhile possibility exists by making use of the SPLIT capability. To use the frequency specified above, one would listen on 3850 kHz in LSB mode but transmit in CW mode on 3849.3 kHz in CW mode. With this scheme one can quickly switch back to transmitting in LSB mode by cancelling SPLIT mode. I've done this sort of thing many times. I believe this stunt can be done with any modern transceiver. It can be done with the TenTec Orion but the setup is more complicated and TenTec doesn't tell you in their manual how to do it.

73, Bob, VA3BZ, W8BZ

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Re: K3 Transmitting CW in SSB mode

> On 26 Jul 2016, at 06:01, ROBERT HEATH <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think the above information covers all the bases. Your question 2 doesn't mean anything to me because I don't believe any modern transceiver will send CW while set for either SSB mode.

Bob, the K3 and KX3 ( and possibly others) have this feature and that is what the OP was asking about. See SSB + CW. It is hidden away under the CW WGHT menu.

It is a -fantastically- useful feature especially on VHF bands where often CW can be used to help complete a contact that started on SSB and QSB made copy difficult. Just hit the paddles while still in SSB mode and send CW without having to think about changing to CW mode first and whether you need to alter VFO etc. The other station who has you tuned in on SSB will hear the CW in his receiver at approximately your chosen sidetone frequency.

What can't all manufacturers have this ? - It is so blindingly obvious that if I use my key that I want to send CW and if I press my microphone PTT that I want to speak on SSB. Others make you have to press mode buttons just so I can quickly send a R or K on the key while in an SSB QSO. Well done Elecraft!

73 David GM4JJJ

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Don Wilhelm

Re: K3 Transmitting CW in SSB mode

In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3

Phil,

With CW+SSB turned on, SSB will be sent at the carrier frequency
indicated on the VFO.
When CW is sent, the frequency is shifted by the amount of your
sidetone pitch, so the receiving station will hear a pitch equal to your
sidetone pitch.

Note that for normal CW, the signal frequency is the same as indicated
on the VFO, i.e. it is different in CW+SSB.

If you are sending in CW mode and the receiving station is listening in
SSB - and both VFOs are tuned to the same frequency, they will hear
nothing because their receiver will likely not hear a signal at the
carrier frequency - that does assume that both stations VFOs are
calibrated properly.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/25/2016 11:34 PM, Phil Hystad wrote:

Phil Hystad-3

Re: K3 Transmitting CW in SSB mode

Don (and others who answered):

Thanks. I was guessing that the answer to the second question (CW mode TX —> SSB RX) was as you said but entirely confident.

So, given what you are saying on sending CW while in SSB mode, the K3 does the following things:

1. Allows CW to be sent in SSB mode (enabled or disabled).
2. Shifts the actual TX frequency by side-tone monitor frequency per LSB/USB direction.

Therefore, given that the RX station is receiving at the same dial VFO frequency reading, they will
hear a tone roughly equivalent to the tone determined by my side-tone frequency. Of course,
assuming they are the same LSB or USB as I am.

As someone else said — “why don’t all transceiver vendors do the same and support this feature”.

73, phil, K7PEH

> On Jul 26, 2016, at 5:30 AM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Phil,
>
> With CW+SSB turned on, SSB will be sent at the carrier frequency indicated on the VFO.
> When CW is sent, the frequency is shifted by the amount of your sidetone pitch, so the receiving station will hear a pitch equal to your sidetone pitch.
>
> Note that for normal CW, the signal frequency is the same as indicated on the VFO, i.e. it is different in CW+SSB.
>
> If you are sending in CW mode and the receiving station is listening in SSB - and both VFOs are tuned to the same frequency, they will hear nothing because their receiver will likely not hear a signal at the carrier frequency - that does assume that both stations VFOs are calibrated properly.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 7/25/2016 11:34 PM, Phil Hystad wrote:
>> I have my K3 enabled to allow the sending of CW in SSB mode. However, I am not sure how this actually works. Therefore, this question.
>>
>> If the K3 VFO is dialed into 3850 KHz (for example) and the mode is set to SSB and my sidetone monitor of the CW signal is set to 700 Hz (not sure if this matters), what will the other station here if I send something in CW while in SSB mode on my K3. In particular:
>>
>> 1. They are also dialed into the same frequency 3850 KHz, what will they hear: a tone of 700 Hz, a tone of some other audio frequency, or no tone at all. My only assumption is that they are in SSB mode and dialed to the same frequency as I am.
>>
>>
>> 2. They (the other station) are dialed into the same frequency of 3850 but their mode is CW and not SSB while my mode in sending is still SSB. Same questions, what will they hear?
>>
>>
>

Don Wilhelm

Re: K3 Transmitting CW in SSB mode

Phil,

My best guess is that others cannot shift the transmit frequency fast
enough to follow CW -- or they just don't think it is important.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/26/2016 12:55 PM, Phil Hystad wrote:
> As someone else said — “why don’t all transceiver vendors do the same and support this feature”.
>
>

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Re: K3 Transmitting CW in SSB mode

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

While we are on this subject - is there a way to have CW+SSB on the split frequency as in using the subrx for split freq and want to get a carrier with key ? I have tried b SET and A>B ALL etc etc . You CAN get it by an A/B and turning off split but would be handy to simply have it on both VFOs. Hank K7HP ----- Original Message -----

> With CW+SSB turned on, SSB will be sent at the carrier frequency
> indicated on the VFO.
> When CW is sent, the frequency is shifted by the amount of your
> sidetone pitch, so the receiving station will hear a pitch equal to
> your
> sidetone pitch.
> Note that for normal CW, the signal frequency is the same as indicated
> on the VFO, i.e. it is different in CW+SSB.
> If you are sending in CW mode and the receiving station is listening
> in
> SSB - and both VFOs are tuned to the same frequency, they will hear
> nothing because their receiver will likely not hear a signal at the
> carrier frequency - that does assume that both stations VFOs are
> calibrated properly.
> 73,
> Don W3FPR

Don Wilhelm

Re: K3 Transmitting CW in SSB mode

Hank,

I am not clear what you are trying to accomplish.
First, CW+SSB is only applicable for transmit, and you cannot transmit
with the subRX.
Yes, you can swap the frequencies, but transmit is still only on the
main RF board whether in SPLIT or not.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/26/2016 3:35 PM, HankP wrote:
> While we are on this subject - is there a way to have CW+SSB on the
> split frequency
> as in using the subrx for split freq and want to get a carrier with
> key ?
>
> I have tried b SET and A>B ALL etc etc . You CAN get it by an A/B and
> turning off split but would
> be handy to simply have it on both VFOs.
>

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Kidder, George

Re: K3 Transmitting CW in SSB mode

In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3

Another way to look at the use of CW in SSB mode on the K3: What I
think the rig does when you hit the key is inject an audio tone at the
CW offset frequency into the audio chain for the SSB signal. If all is
clean and not distorted, the result will be a single RF frequency offset
from the SSB "carrier", and will be receivable as such by a SSB receiver
tuned to the SSB carrier frequency.

If the K3/K3S doesn't actually generate an audio tone, it sure behaves
like it.

George, W3HBM

On 7/26/2016 12:55 PM, Phil Hystad wrote:

> Don (and others who answered):
>
> Thanks. I was guessing that the answer to the second question (CW mode TX —> SSB RX) was as you said but entirely confident.
>
> So, given what you are saying on sending CW while in SSB mode, the K3 does the following things:
>
> 1. Allows CW to be sent in SSB mode (enabled or disabled).
> 2. Shifts the actual TX frequency by side-tone monitor frequency per LSB/USB direction.
>
> Therefore, given that the RX station is receiving at the same dial VFO frequency reading, they will
> hear a tone roughly equivalent to the tone determined by my side-tone frequency. Of course,
> assuming they are the same LSB or USB as I am.
>
> As someone else said — “why don’t all transceiver vendors do the same and support this feature”.
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
>
>> On Jul 26, 2016, at 5:30 AM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Phil,
>>
>> With CW+SSB turned on, SSB will be sent at the carrier frequency indicated on the VFO.
>> When CW is sent, the frequency is shifted by the amount of your sidetone pitch, so the receiving station will hear a pitch equal to your sidetone pitch.
>>
>> Note that for normal CW, the signal frequency is the same as indicated on the VFO, i.e. it is different in CW+SSB.
>>
>> If you are sending in CW mode and the receiving station is listening in SSB - and both VFOs are tuned to the same frequency, they will hear nothing because their receiver will likely not hear a signal at the carrier frequency - that does assume that both stations VFOs are calibrated properly.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> On 7/25/2016 11:34 PM, Phil Hystad wrote:
>>> I have my K3 enabled to allow the sending of CW in SSB mode. However, I am not sure how this actually works. Therefore, this question.
>>>
>>> If the K3 VFO is dialed into 3850 KHz (for example) and the mode is set to SSB and my sidetone monitor of the CW signal is set to 700 Hz (not sure if this matters), what will the other station here if I send something in CW while in SSB mode on my K3. In particular:
>>>
>>> 1. They are also dialed into the same frequency 3850 KHz, what will they hear: a tone of 700 Hz, a tone of some other audio frequency, or no tone at all. My only assumption is that they are in SSB mode and dialed to the same frequency as I am.
>>>
>>>
>>> 2. They (the other station) are dialed into the same frequency of 3850 but their mode is CW and not SSB while my mode in sending is still SSB. Same questions, what will they hear?
>>>
>>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Don Wilhelm

Re: K3 Transmitting CW in SSB mode

George,

The K3/K3S does *not* inject an audio tone.
It shifts the transmit carrier by an amount equal to your sidetone pitch.
Lower if you are on LSB and higher if you are on USB.

The effect is the same as adding a tone to a perfectly suppressed
carrier, but is guaranteed to be clean.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/27/2016 2:21 PM, George Kidder wrote:
> Another way to look at the use of CW in SSB mode on the K3: What I
> think the rig does when you hit the key is inject an audio tone at the
> CW offset frequency into the audio chain for the SSB signal. If all
> is clean and not distorted, the result will be a single RF frequency
> offset from the SSB "carrier", and will be receivable as such by a SSB
> receiver tuned to the SSB carrier frequency.
>
> If the K3/K3S doesn't actually generate an audio tone, it sure behaves
> like it.

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Kidder, George

Re: K3 Transmitting CW in SSB mode

Thanks, Don. Harder to implement, but safer.

George

On 7/27/2016 2:39 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> George,
>
> The K3/K3S does *not* inject an audio tone.
> It shifts the transmit carrier by an amount equal to your sidetone pitch.
> Lower if you are on LSB and higher if you are on USB.
>
> The effect is the same as adding a tone to a perfectly suppressed
> carrier, but is guaranteed to be clean.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 7/27/2016 2:21 PM, George Kidder wrote:
>> Another way to look at the use of CW in SSB mode on the K3: What I
>> think the rig does when you hit the key is inject an audio tone at
>> the CW offset frequency into the audio chain for the SSB signal. If
>> all is clean and not distorted, the result will be a single RF
>> frequency offset from the SSB "carrier", and will be receivable as
>> such by a SSB receiver tuned to the SSB carrier frequency.
>>
>> If the K3/K3S doesn't actually generate an audio tone, it sure
>> behaves like it.
>

Grant Youngman-2

Re: K3 Transmitting CW in SSB mode

It's just a"few lines of code" ;)

All done in DSP most likely. Simpler than doing the same thing in an analog radio.

Grant NQ5T

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 27, 2016, at 5:22 PM, George Kidder <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Don. Harder to implement, but safer.
>
> George
>
>
>> On 7/27/2016 2:39 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> George,
>>
>> The K3/K3S does *not* inject an audio tone.
>> It shifts the transmit carrier by an amount equal to your sidetone pitch.
>> Lower if you are on LSB and higher if you are on USB.
>>
>> The effect is the same as adding a tone to a perfectly suppressed carrier, but is guaranteed to be clean.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>>> On 7/27/2016 2:21 PM, George Kidder wrote:
>>> Another way to look at the use of CW in SSB mode on the K3: What I think the rig does when you hit the key is inject an audio tone at the CW offset frequency into the audio chain for the SSB signal. If all is clean and not distorted, the result will be a single RF frequency offset from the SSB "carrier", and will be receivable as such by a SSB receiver tuned to the SSB carrier frequency.
>>>
>>> If the K3/K3S doesn't actually generate an audio tone, it sure behaves like it.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Don Wilhelm

Re: K3 Transmitting CW in SSB mode

Actually, I believe the frequency shift is done in the MCU firmware.
Control of the synthesizers is what is needed.

Those "few lines of code" can be problematic (not with what is intended,
but other aspects that it interfered with) - that is why the firmware is
tested in-house (or by a few out-of-house field testers) before it is
even released as a beta version.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/27/2016 6:09 PM, Grant Youngman wrote:

> It's just a"few lines of code" ;)
>
> All done in DSP most likely. Simpler than doing the same thing in an analog radio.
>
> Grant NQ5T
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jul 27, 2016, at 5:22 PM, George Kidder <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, Don. Harder to implement, but safer.
>>
>>

Stewart Bryant

Re: K3 Transmitting CW in SSB mode

In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3

I had not realized it could do this. As was said this is a real boon for
VHF contesters where you really want to leave the dial fixed and
continue to receive SSB, but need to complete the exchange in CW when
you get QSB.

However I cannot find any reference in the manual - how do you enable
this, or is it just there all along?

73

Stewart/G3YSX

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Don Wilhelm

Re: K3 Transmitting CW in SSB mode

Stewart,

It is not in the early manuals since it was not available then.
Look in the new manual (I am looking at D10) which you can download from
the Elecraft website. See page 55, the CW WGHT description. Also see
page 36 SPLIT and Cross-Mode Operation.

If you look in past firmware release notes, you will see it described in
the release that included this function.

It is a good idea to review the firmware release notes when new firmware
is announced. If you want the function mentioned, download that
firmware (or a later level).

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/28/2016 6:47 PM, Stewart Bryant wrote:
> I had not realized it could do this. As was said this is a real boon
> for VHF contesters where you really want to leave the dial fixed and
> continue to receive SSB, but need to complete the exchange in CW when
> you get QSB.
>
> However I cannot find any reference in the manual - how do you enable
> this, or is it just there all along?

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