K3 VS 7600 Sherwood List
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Yes, a Chinese TS830 because the Japanese had their chance at it. ;-)
Also enjoy cranking from bottom CW band to band top with manual VFO, fixed selectivity, etc. Oh yes, somebody makes lots of money competing with old units on eBay. I tell anyone that will listen, the flexibility of a DSP radio means little without the rich full natural sound of a good analog radio. Elecraft has done this (IMO). They have made the hobby technically better without the artifactual warts. I have thought about how the K3 will fare better in 30 years, since the design is modular and so many of the components are in large scale integrated circuits. The old Kenwood PC boards are disintegrating from old age. I'd like think the K3 will far surpass TS930, 940, etc. in the old age game - probably outlasting me. ;-) [Elecraft] [K3] K3 VS 7600 Sherwood List pd0psb p.s.bijpost at gmail.com Sat Sep 5 06:49:37 EDT 2009 Previous message: [Elecraft] K3 VS 7600 Sherwood List Next message: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 VS 7600 Sherwood List Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Now, if manufacturers would put their analyzers aside, and just sit down and LISTEN to those grand old rigs.... And make dsp models with the same characteristics and sound. What a wonderful world it would be ;-) I wouldn't mind a TS-830 replica with all dsp inside. 73' Paul PD0PSB ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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G'day Don,
> I tell anyone that will listen, the flexibility of a DSP radio > means little without the rich full natural sound of a good analog > radio. Elecraft has done this (IMO). They have made the hobby > technically better without the artifactual warts. > There are many who would disagree with this. Whatever happened to the "pink noise" response experiment or the LPF that was being tested a few months ago. I will agree that Elecraft have pushed the RF boundary but to date audio hasn't been their thing and here I'm not talking audiophile rubbish just good sound. Unfortunately that is the interface with the human operator. I find myself drawn more and more back to the K2 and if I was closer to the action I might even consider parting with the K3. However, gear that comes to out of the way locations tends to die there and one can always live in hope. Regards, Mike VP8NO ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Hello Gentleman,
I fully understand that Sherwood list is of high regard among many hams. Regrettably, I really do not experience what should be expected after studying Sherwood list. In particular, I am referring ic7800, ic7700, ic7600 Vs K3. All these 3 icom rigs are now in my stack and ready to do A/B comparison with K3 at any time. I do not see any day and night difference among them even in the recent IARU contest. Bearing in mind, Hong Kong is small and 1Kw big guns are everywhere (even within line of sight) under contest condition. On the other hand, there are distinct characterists between K3 and Icom rigs. Personal preference and operation easiness would play in these areas. I am pleased to see that Elecraft keeps on improving the firmware which should bring more operation easiness and smoother learning curve. I would expect further improvement in the Noise Reduction function of K3. If you feel this email offensive, please press your "delete" button. 73 Johnny VR2XMC K3 + K2 s ________________________________ 寄件人﹕ Mike Harris <mike.harris@cwimail..fk> 收件人 Don Rasmussen <[hidden email]>; [hidden email] 傳送日期﹕ 2009 年 9月 6 日 星期日 上午 2:06:21 主題： Re: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 VS 7600 Sherwood List G'day Don, > I tell anyone that will listen, the flexibility of a DSP radio > means little without the rich full natural sound of a good analog > radio. Elecraft has done this (IMO). They have made the hobby > technically better without the artifactual warts. > There are many who would disagree with this. Whatever happened to the "pink noise" response experiment or the LPF that was being tested a few months ago. I will agree that Elecraft have pushed the RF boundary but to date audio hasn't been their thing and here I'm not talking audiophile rubbish just good sound. Unfortunately that is the interface with the human operator. I find myself drawn more and more back to the K2 and if I was closer to the action I might even consider parting with the K3. However, gear that comes to out of the way locations tends to die there and one can always live in hope. Regards, Mike VP8NO Yahoo!香港提供網上安全攻略，教你如何防範黑客! 請前往 http://hk.promo.yahoo.com/security/ 了解更多! ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Try most recent firmware for some new NR on the K3.
In general are you talking about CW or SSB or both? If SSB, I find that the controlling aspect of close signals is transmitted splatter, which no receiver can do anything to improve. Some really poor front ends make that worse. Will your Icom's nullify key clicks from adjacent clicky signals? IC7600 $4000 US IC7700 $8484 US IC7800 $10600 US Total $23,084 US Lot of money just to argue with K3 owners on the Elecraft reflector. Interesting that you don't see any difference between the 7800 performance and a K3. As in math, there is no advantage to placement for two things on either side of an equals sign. As to the "heard" performance with the better RX lab numbers, I'd have to say that I only hear a differential in really bad CW situations in contests. It's also abundantly clear that "heard" performance varies widely between individuals and I don't think anyone is telling deliberate lies. That is to say that if you say they sound the same to you, then they sound the same to you. Neither do I think Sherwood is telling any lies. I don't think he has a dog anywhere in that fight. I note that Icom says outright that the 7600 is the replacement for the Pro III and "improved the in-band IMD (Inter Modulation Distortion) significantly over the IC-756PRO3." For a disadvantage they swore for years the Pro line didn't have, that's an interesting admission. Wonder what brought that on... Maybe the 7600 is a really good rig for the dough, maybe they left some things out. Time will tell. The other thing about a 7600, can you get it in a kit? 73, Guy. On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Johnny Siu<[hidden email]> wrote: > Hello Gentleman, > > I fully understand that Sherwood list is of high regard among many hams. > > Regrettably, I really do not experience what should be expected after studying Sherwood list. In particular, I am referring ic7800, ic7700, ic7600 Vs K3. All these 3 icom rigs are now in my stack and ready to do A/B comparison with K3 at any time. I do not see any day and night difference among them even in the recent IARU contest. Bearing in mind, Hong Kong is small and 1Kw big guns are everywhere (even within line of sight) under contest condition. > > On the other hand, there are distinct characterists between K3 and Icom rigs. Personal preference and operation easiness would play in these areas. > > I am pleased to see that Elecraft keeps on improving the firmware which should bring more operation easiness and smoother learning curve. I would expect further improvement in the Noise Reduction function of K3. > > If you feel this email offensive, please press your "delete" button. > > 73 > > Johnny VR2XMC > > K3 + K2 s > > > > > ________________________________ > 寄件人﹕ Mike Harris <mike.harris@cwimail..fk> > 收件人 Don Rasmussen <[hidden email]>; [hidden email] > 傳送日期﹕ 2009 年 9月 6 日 星期日 上午 2:06:21 > 主題： Re: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 VS 7600 Sherwood List > > G'day Don, > >> I tell anyone that will listen, the flexibility of a DSP radio >> means little without the rich full natural sound of a good analog >> radio. Elecraft has done this (IMO). They have made the hobby >> technically better without the artifactual warts. >> > > There are many who would disagree with this. Whatever happened to > the "pink noise" response experiment or the LPF that was being > tested a few months ago. I will agree that Elecraft have pushed the > RF boundary but to date audio hasn't been their thing and here I'm > not talking audiophile rubbish just good sound. Unfortunately that > is the interface with the human operator. > > I find myself drawn more and more back to the K2 and if I was closer > to the action I might even consider parting with the K3. However, > gear that comes to out of the way locations tends to die there and > one can always live in hope. > > Regards, > > Mike VP8NO > > > Yahoo!香港提供網上安全攻略，教你如何防範黑客! 請前往 http://hk.promo.yahoo.com/security/ 了解更多! > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Hello Guy,
Your comments are welcome and appreciated (I am now in an Elecraft mail reflector and I am a K2, K3 owner). First of all, I am lucky that I live in another part of the world with no GST, VAT and any import tax. Therefore, the prices for all your quoted icom rigs are 20-35% cheaper in Hong Kong. (Hello Readers: please don't ask me to buy one for you from Hong Kong because I am not a radio dealer) Ham radio is such a fantastic hobby that there are many areas one can concentrate. Since I am not a radio man by profession, my main interest (since I know little and hence want to learn more) to examine the architecture and performance of different radios under contest condition (or survivial among local big guns). Again, fortunately, my financial power enable me to do so. I just have the luck to do what I like in that particular ham radio area. Therefore, buying those icom rigs (in fact, I owned a FTDX9000 two years ago) are for my own study and not for arguing with K3 owners, hihi ........ Why should I argue? I am a K3 owner and like everyone here. Secondly, I mostly operate in SSB and always openly admit that I seldom operate CW. Having said that, I understand the joy of operating a SSB station just 3kHz away from a local 1kw big gun within line of sight. Again, I do not see a day and night difference among ic7800, ic7700, ic7600 and K3. Thirdly, I have no doubt about the credibility of Sherwood's figure. In fact, in the past, he expressed his favourable comments about IC781 Vs IC7800. I sent him my own product review report between IC7800 Vs IC781 which shown an entirely different conclusion with his. Interestingly, we agreed to disagree. We knew the stand points of each other quite well. If any of you would like to see my report, please contact me off the list. Fourthly, I had used the entire IC756 family (i.e. IC756 original to latest IC7600). I fully understand how this family has been evolving. Similarly, I notice improvements of K2 and K3 throughout the years. My first K2 is #1146. My K3 is the first batch when I paid half the price as deposit and waited for a couple of months to get my K3. Finally, I like building kits and I am a kit builder. I always express my interest to Elecraft that I am awaiting their KPA800 or KPA1600. I like my own ICPW-1 but I more look forward to a linear amp kit which I can service it myself. I trust I have already occupied enough band width in this mail reflector. If any reader want to discuss further, please contact me off the list. Of course, I know I am standing in front of a group of Elecrafter (come on, I am an Elecrafter too) but my view points are just some deviations from the norm. cheers, Johnny VR2XMC ________________________________ 寄件人﹕ Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]> 收件人 Johnny Siu <[hidden email]> 副本(CC) Mike Harris <[hidden email]>; Don Rasmussen <[hidden email]>; [hidden email] 傳送日期﹕ 2009 年 9月 6 日 星期日 上午 10:24:21 主題： Re: [Elecraft] Re： [K3] K3 VS 7600 Sherwood List Try most recent firmware for some new NR on the K3. In general are you talking about CW or SSB or both? If SSB, I find that the controlling aspect of close signals is transmitted splatter, which no receiver can do anything to improve. Some really poor front ends make that worse. Will your Icom's nullify key clicks from adjacent clicky signals? IC7600 $4000 US IC7700 $8484 US IC7800 $10600 US Total $23,084 US Lot of money just to argue with K3 owners on the Elecraft reflector. Interesting that you don't see any difference between the 7800 performance and a K3. As in math, there is no advantage to placement for two things on either side of an equals sign. As to the "heard" performance with the better RX lab numbers, I'd have to say that I only hear a differential in really bad CW situations in contests. It's also abundantly clear that "heard" performance varies widely between individuals and I don't think anyone is telling deliberate lies. That is to say that if you say they sound the same to you, then they sound the same to you. Neither do I think Sherwood is telling any lies. I don't think he has a dog anywhere in that fight. I note that Icom says outright that the 7600 is the replacement for the Pro III and "improved the in-band IMD (Inter Modulation Distortion) significantly over the IC-756PRO3." For a disadvantage they swore for years the Pro line didn't have, that's an interesting admission. Wonder what brought that on... Maybe the 7600 is a really good rig for the dough, maybe they left some things out. Time will tell. The other thing about a 7600, can you get it in a kit? 73, Guy. On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Johnny Siu<[hidden email]> wrote: > Hello Gentleman, > > I fully understand that Sherwood list is of high regard among many hams. > > Regrettably, I really do not experience what should be expected after studying Sherwood list. In particular, I am referring ic7800, ic7700, ic7600 Vs K3. All these 3 icom rigs are now in my stack and ready to do A/B comparison with K3 at any time. I do not see any day and night difference among them even in the recent IARU contest. Bearing in mind, Hong Kong is small and 1Kw big guns are everywhere (even within line of sight) under contest condition.. > > On the other hand, there are distinct characterists between K3 and Icom rigs. Personal preference and operation easiness would play in these areas. > > I am pleased to see that Elecraft keeps on improving the firmware which should bring more operation easiness and smoother learning curve. I would expect further improvement in the Noise Reduction function of K3. > > If you feel this email offensive, please press your "delete" button. > > 73 > > Johnny VR2XMC > > K3 + K2 s > Yahoo!香港提供網上安全攻略，教你如何防範黑客! 請前往 http://hk.promo.yahoo.com/security/ 了解更多! ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Don Rasmussen
One area where the K3 is also looking good is the transmitted noise
level, ARRL members may wish to look at the on-line reviews and check the close in spectrum analyser plots of the K3 vs the rest when keying on CW. A near neighbour appears to be +/- 50 KHz wide on 80m with rubbish from his transmitter, now if he was 15 dB cleaner by running a K3 instead of his "top of the range" rig (it's not Icom by the way) some of us would be a bit happier. Maybe that's why multi-rig contest stations are migrating to the K3? 73 Dave, G4AON K3/100 #80 ------------------ Hello Gentleman, I fully understand that Sherwood list is of high regard among many hams. Regrettably, I really do not experience what should be expected after studying Sherwood list. In particular, I am referring ic7800, ic7700, ic7600 Vs K3. All these 3 icom rigs are now in my stack and ready to do A/B comparison with K3 at any time. I do not see any day and night difference among them even in the recent IARU contest. Bearing in mind, Hong Kong is small and 1Kw big guns are everywhere (even within line of sight) under contest condition. On the other hand, there are distinct characterists between K3 and Icom rigs. Personal preference and operation easiness would play in these areas. I am pleased to see that Elecraft keeps on improving the firmware which should bring more operation easiness and smoother learning curve. I would expect further improvement in the Noise Reduction function of K3. If you feel this email offensive, please press your "delete" button. 73 Johnny VR2XMC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Re： K3 VS 7600 Sherwood List
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In reply to this post by Johnny Siu
John,
Thank you for your informative e-mails. A dose of reality is no harm. I have K3 and Orion 2 radios and like them both though the K3 is winning my heart. The ongoing development process is fun. Keep enjoying your radios and hope to meet you on the bands. 73 Doug EI2CN -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Johnny Siu Sent: 06 September 2009 01:36 To: Mike Harris; Don Rasmussen; [hidden email] Subject: [Elecraft] Re： [K3] K3 VS 7600 Sherwood List Hello Gentleman, I fully understand that Sherwood list is of high regard among many hams. Regrettably, I really do not experience what should be expected after studying Sherwood list. In particular, I am referring ic7800, ic7700, ic7600 Vs K3. All these 3 icom rigs are now in my stack and ready to do A/B comparison with K3 at any time. I do not see any day and night difference among them even in the recent IARU contest. Bearing in mind, Hong Kong is small and 1Kw big guns are everywhere (even within line of sight) under contest condition. On the other hand, there are distinct characterists between K3 and Icom rigs. Personal preference and operation easiness would play in these areas. I am pleased to see that Elecraft keeps on improving the firmware which should bring more operation easiness and smoother learning curve. I would expect further improvement in the Noise Reduction function of K3. If you feel this email offensive, please press your "delete" button. 73 Johnny VR2XMC K3 + K2 s ________________________________ 寄件人﹕ Mike Harris <mike.harris@cwimail..fk> 收件人 Don Rasmussen <[hidden email]>; [hidden email] 傳送日期﹕ 2009 年 9月 6 日 星期日 上午 2:06:21 主題： Re: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 VS 7600 Sherwood List G'day Don, > I tell anyone that will listen, the flexibility of a DSP radio > means little without the rich full natural sound of a good analog > radio. Elecraft has done this (IMO). They have made the hobby > technically better without the artifactual warts. > There are many who would disagree with this. Whatever happened to the "pink noise" response experiment or the LPF that was being tested a few months ago. I will agree that Elecraft have pushed the RF boundary but to date audio hasn't been their thing and here I'm not talking audiophile rubbish just good sound. Unfortunately that is the interface with the human operator. I find myself drawn more and more back to the K2 and if I was closer to the action I might even consider parting with the K3. However, gear that comes to out of the way locations tends to die there and one can always live in hope. Regards, Mike VP8NO Yahoo!香港提供網上安全攻略，教你如何防範黑客! 請前往 http://hk.promo.yahoo.com/security/ 了解更多! ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Johnny Siu
This is the key to your perception of the K3 and the other rigs. If you're operating 3 kHz from any strong SSB station, the observed dynamic range (probably ~35 dB) is primarily limited by the cleanliness of his transmitted signal (TX IMD, phase noise, etc) no matter how good your receiver may be. In fact Sherwood's ranking (2 kHz IMD performance) only makes sense for CW, since it simulates performance of a CW receiver with strong stations spaced every 2 kHz. If you don't operate CW, then indeed there's probably little difference in any receivers since none of them can clean up transmitted SSB QRM. If you operate CW in crowded contests or large pileups, there's a vast performance difference (20-30 dB in dynamic range) in the rigs you have. 73, Bill |
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> This is the key to your perception of the K3 and the other rigs. If
> you're > operating 3 kHz from any strong SSB station, the observed dynamic range > (probably ~35 dB) is primarily limited by the cleanliness of his > transmitted > signal (TX IMD, phase noise, etc) no matter how good your receiver may be. > In fact Sherwood's ranking (2 kHz IMD performance) only makes sense for > CW, > since it simulates performance of a CW receiver with strong stations > spaced > every 2 kHz. If you don't operate CW, then indeed there's probably little > difference in any receivers since none of them can clean up transmitted > SSB > QRM. > > If you operate CW in crowded contests or large pileups, there's a vast > performance difference (20-30 dB in dynamic range) in the rigs you have. > > 73, Bill > Actually, the situation in CW is not much different. The side emissions of the best transmitters on the ham bands are only 90 dB below the signal. That's why the real world experiences aren't such as expected from the lab measurements figures. 73, Val LZ1VB ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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True, but if one rig has 100 dB dynamic range (K3) and another has 80 dB (up conversion JA rigs), that's still 10 dB difference, which is very significant. 73, Bill |
Re： Re： Re： K3 VS 7600 Sherwood List
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In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV
Thanks for your imput to this forum, Bill.
The beauty of this mail reflector is that it gives everyone a fair chance to express their views. cheers for now, Johnny VR2XMC ________________________________ 寄件人﹕ Bill W4ZV <[hidden email]> 收件人 [hidden email] 傳送日期﹕ 2009 年 9月 6 日 星期日 下午 6:13:53 主題： Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Re： Re： K3 VS 7600 Sherwood List Johnny Siu wrote: > > Secondly, I mostly operate in SSB and always openly admit that I seldom > operate CW. Having said that, I understand the joy of operating a SSB > station just 3kHz away from a local 1kw big gun within line of sight. > Again, I do not see a day and night difference among ic7800, ic7700, > ic7600 and K3. > This is the key to your perception of the K3 and the other rigs. If you're operating 3 kHz from any strong SSB station, the observed dynamic range (probably ~35 dB) is primarily limited by the cleanliness of his transmitted signal (TX IMD, phase noise, etc) no matter how good your receiver may be. In fact Sherwood's ranking (2 kHz IMD performance) only makes sense for CW, since it simulates performance of a CW receiver with strong stations spaced every 2 kHz. If you don't operate CW, then indeed there's probably little difference in any receivers since none of them can clean up transmitted SSB QRM. If you operate CW in crowded contests or large pileups, there's a vast performance difference (20-30 dB in dynamic range) in the rigs you have. 73, Bill -- Yahoo!香港提供網上安全攻略，教你如何防範黑客! 請前往 http://hk.promo.yahoo.com/security/ 了解更多! ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV
Bill and All,
I think you hit the nail on the head Bill! Johnny seems to be very nicely equipped over there, and certainly should be proud of the choices he has there in his shack. However, if you aren't much interested in CW, a great deal of the refinement of the K3 can be pretty subtle. I suppose if I only operated SSB, I might be just as happy with a 7600, 7700 or 7800--maybe even happier in some respects. There are several operating conveniences the Icoms have which the K3 really doesn't effectively compete with. Even on CW this can be the case, unless you are really in a battle with QRM. Nonetheless, I'm still extremely impressed that I can pretty much stand toe to toe with the Icoms, save several thousands dollars, and still have a rig I can pick up with one hand--two fingers actually, if I grab the handle. Not everyone sees it that way though, and I understand their side of the comparison. It's just a matter of what your "hot buttons" are. Dave W7AQK ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill W4ZV" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]> Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 3:13 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Re： Re： K3 VS 7600 Sherwood List > > > > Johnny Siu wrote: >> >> Secondly, I mostly operate in SSB and always openly admit that I seldom >> operate CW. Having said that, I understand the joy of operating a SSB >> station just 3kHz away from a local 1kw big gun within line of sight. >> Again, I do not see a day and night difference among ic7800, ic7700, >> ic7600 and K3. >> > > This is the key to your perception of the K3 and the other rigs. If > you're > operating 3 kHz from any strong SSB station, the observed dynamic range > (probably ~35 dB) is primarily limited by the cleanliness of his > transmitted > signal (TX IMD, phase noise, etc) no matter how good your receiver may be. > In fact Sherwood's ranking (2 kHz IMD performance) only makes sense for > CW, > since it simulates performance of a CW receiver with strong stations > spaced > every 2 kHz. If you don't operate CW, then indeed there's probably little > difference in any receivers since none of them can clean up transmitted > SSB > QRM. > > If you operate CW in crowded contests or large pileups, there's a vast > performance difference (20-30 dB in dynamic range) in the rigs you have. > > 73, Bill > > -- > View this message in context: > http://n2.nabble.com/K3-VS-7600-Sherwood-List-tp3585971p3592023.html > Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Absolutely Dave! My particular "hot button" for the low bands is True Diversity, which only the K3 and Flex 5000 can properly do. Ten-Tec's Orion was close but not phase-locked and the Sub RX so so inferior to the Main RX that it was rendered useless if any strong signals were nearby. It will be interesting to see if any of the next generation up-conversion rigs will add this capability. Until then, unless you like computers the Bill Gates user interface, the K3 is the only game in town. 73, Bill P.S. 160m is beginning to come to life. I worked several JAs today, continuing my streak of JA QSOs in June, July and August (equivalent to you working EU then). This was unheard of until we got these very low Solar Flux conditions, so there's a silver lining to the cloud of low sunspots. |
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In reply to this post by w7aqk
Very few of the 7600,7700 and 7800 owners will recognize that K3
costing way less is equal or superior on some cases than theirs,surely they feel embarrased to have spent so much in such those Icoms when then we with $3K or less are doing the same job they do,I have known in my county a couple of guys who after been using high price radios like the ones mentioned after been comparing them against my K3 has changed mind and sold theirs to buy this K3,you can't hide the truth,its there,K3 is a top performer no matter some one like or not,period. AD4C "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits". -- Albert Einstein --- On Sun, 9/6/09, David Y. <[hidden email]> wrote: From: David Y. <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Re： Re： K3 VS 7600 Sherwood List To: "Bill W4ZV" <[hidden email]>, [hidden email] Date: Sunday, September 6, 2009, 11:49 AM Bill and All, I think you hit the nail on the head Bill! Johnny seems to be very nicely equipped over there, and certainly should be proud of the choices he has there in his shack. However, if you aren't much interested in CW, a great deal of the refinement of the K3 can be pretty subtle. I suppose if I only operated SSB, I might be just as happy with a 7600, 7700 or 7800--maybe even happier in some respects. There are several operating conveniences the Icoms have which the K3 really doesn't effectively compete with. Even on CW this can be the case, unless you are really in a battle with QRM. Nonetheless, I'm still extremely impressed that I can pretty much stand toe to toe with the Icoms, save several thousands dollars, and still have a rig I can pick up with one hand--two fingers actually, if I grab the handle. Not everyone sees it that way though, and I understand their side of the comparison. It's just a matter of what your "hot buttons" are. Dave W7AQK ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill W4ZV" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]> Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 3:13 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Re： Re： K3 VS 7600 Sherwood List > > > > Johnny Siu wrote: >> >> Secondly, I mostly operate in SSB and always openly admit that I seldom >> operate CW. Having said that, I understand the joy of operating a SSB >> station just 3kHz away from a local 1kw big gun within line of sight. >> Again, I do not see a day and night difference among ic7800, ic7700, >> ic7600 and K3. >> > > This is the key to your perception of the K3 and the other rigs. If > you're > operating 3 kHz from any strong SSB station, the observed dynamic range > (probably ~35 dB) is primarily limited by the cleanliness of his > transmitted > signal (TX IMD, phase noise, etc) no matter how good your receiver may be. > In fact Sherwood's ranking (2 kHz IMD performance) only makes sense for > CW, > since it simulates performance of a CW receiver with strong stations > spaced > every 2 kHz. If you don't operate CW, then indeed there's probably little > difference in any receivers since none of them can clean up transmitted > SSB > QRM. > > If you operate CW in crowded contests or large pileups, there's a vast > performance difference (20-30 dB in dynamic range) in the rigs you have. > > 73, Bill > > -- > View this message in context: > http://n2.nabble.com/K3-VS-7600-Sherwood-List-tp3585971p3592023.html > Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Dave, G4AON
I spent several hours comparing my K3 with an IC7700 a couple of weeks ago.
I was hard pushed to hear any practical difference between the receivers in digging weak signals out of noisy band conditions, but what struck me most was that as soon as the Icom went on ssb tx (20m) the whole noise floor rose on the K3 dramatically (on the same band about 100kHz away). Onto transmit on the K3 with the IC7700 on rx, there was no sign of the K3 at all. I forget what transmit levels were being used but they were the same with both rigs. The K3 was on a G5RV and the IC7700 on an R8 with half a small garden's width between the antennas. I like the IC7700 a lot, it's VERY pretty and has really rich audio like the IC781 which it replaced at my friend's qth. However, it's also very big, heavy and expensive. Horses for courses.... 73 Stephen G4SJP On 06/09/2009 07:45, "Dave G4AON" <[hidden email]> wrote: > > One area where the K3 is also looking good is the transmitted noise > level, ARRL members may wish to look at the on-line reviews and check > the close in spectrum analyser plots of the K3 vs the rest when keying > on CW. A near neighbour appears to be +/- 50 KHz wide on 80m with > rubbish from his transmitter, now if he was 15 dB cleaner by running a > K3 instead of his "top of the range" rig (it's not Icom by the way) some > of us would be a bit happier. Maybe that's why multi-rig contest > stations are migrating to the K3? > > 73 Dave, G4AON > K3/100 #80 > ------------------ ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Stephen Prior wrote:
> I spent several hours comparing my K3 with an IC7700 a couple of weeks ago. > I was hard pushed to hear any practical difference between the receivers in > digging weak signals out of noisy band conditions, but what struck me most > was that as soon as the Icom went on ssb tx (20m) the whole noise floor rose > on the K3 dramatically (on the same band about 100kHz away). Onto transmit > on the K3 with the IC7700 on rx, there was no sign of the K3 at all. I > forget what transmit levels were being used but they were the same with both > rigs. This is not only an ICOM problem. When I have operated CW at local Field Days, I've found that it is problematic to operate on the same band as the SSB station. As soon as the SSB transmitter (various Yaesus and Kenwoods at 100w) goes into transmit, a loud WHOOSH is heard on the CW band. The operator doesn't have to speak, just closing the PTT is sufficient -- in fact there is no detectable speech sound, indicating that it is not related to the RF that is transmitted on purpose! Bandpass filters eliminated the problem on different bands, but of course could not do anything when we operated on the same band. The antennas were located and oriented to reduce coupling, but still it was a severe problem. -- 73, Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Re： Re： K3 VS 7600 Sherwood List
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In reply to this post by AD4C2009
> "Very few of the 7600,7700 and 7800 owners will recognize that K3
> costing way less is equal or superior on some cases than theirs,surely > they feel embarrased to have spent so much in such those Icoms when > then we with $3K or less are doing the same job they do..." Like Johnny, I have most of the mentioned Icom rigs as well as a K3, but I'm not sure I've been embarrassed about the Icom purchasing decisions. To Dave Yarnes' point, there are indeed some positive operating and ergonomic attributes of the Icoms that the K3 does not have -- but those same attributes also allow the K3 to be used in a manner not feasible with the Icoms (e.g., size and weight for grab-'n-go portable operations). So, looking at the feature set requires looking beyond what one product has or doesn't have to offer. >From a performance perspective, I doubt I will ever see the positive benefits of the K3's strong signal handling performance. Living in a gated community with all its limitations mask that superior benefit -- as well as the other limitations already raised -- SSB Tx IMD and CW clicks from other stations. But at the same time, look at how much attention has been given to Tx performance in the last five years. We finally have a set of transceivers on the market that minimize transmitted spectrum in CW mode. Now that the CW keyed envelope and ALC issues have been solved, the next hurdle is keep pushing for better Tx IMD specs. When that happens, then I suspect more ops can then take advantage of the K3's close-spaced receive performance. Paul, W9AC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Re: Re: K3 VS 7600 Sherwood List
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> Now that the CW keyed envelope and ALC issues have been > solved, the next hurdle is keep pushing for better Tx IMD > specs. When that happens, then I suspect more ops can then > take advantage of the K3's close-spaced receive performance. I think a higher priority target should be transmitted phase noise. My neighbor's Icom generally wipes out most of whatever band he's on - at least +/- 100 KHz whether he's on CW or SSB. The K3 copes far better with the blocking effects than any other rig I've had but transmitted phase noise is impossible to avoid. BTW, the interesting new entry on the Sherwood list is the Flex-3000. While not in the K3 class, it shows rather good narrow IMD specs. Like the Flex-5000 it could stand some work on the LO noise front but blocking and LO noise data is still comparable with some other well known rigs - including the 7600 and K2. 73, ... Joe, W4TV > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Paul > Christensen > Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 12:24 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Elecraft][K3] Re: Re: K3 VS 7600 Sherwood List > > > > "Very few of the 7600,7700 and 7800 owners will recognize that K3 > > costing way less is equal or superior on some cases than > theirs,surely > > they feel embarrased to have spent so much in such those Icoms when > > then we with $3K or less are doing the same job they do..." > > Like Johnny, I have most of the mentioned Icom rigs as well > as a K3, but I'm > not sure I've been embarrassed about the Icom purchasing > decisions. To Dave > Yarnes' point, there are indeed some positive operating and ergonomic > attributes of the Icoms that the K3 does not have -- but those same > attributes also allow the K3 to be used in a manner not > feasible with the > Icoms (e.g., size and weight for grab-'n-go portable > operations). So, > looking at the feature set requires looking beyond what one > product has or > doesn't have to offer. > > >From a performance perspective, I doubt I will ever see the positive > benefits of the K3's strong signal handling performance. > Living in a gated > community with all its limitations mask that superior benefit > -- as well as > the other limitations already raised -- SSB Tx IMD and CW > clicks from other > stations. But at the same time, look at how much attention > has been given > to Tx performance in the last five years. We finally have a set of > transceivers on the market that minimize transmitted spectrum > in CW mode. > Now that the CW keyed envelope and ALC issues have been > solved, the next > hurdle is keep pushing for better Tx IMD specs. When that > happens, then I > suspect more ops can then take advantage of the K3's > close-spaced receive > performance. > > Paul, W9AC > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Johnny Siu
On 5 Sep 2009, at 8:39 PM, Johnny Siu wrote: > > Fourthly, I had used the entire IC756 family (i.e. IC756 original to > latest IC7600). I fully understand how this family has been > evolving. Similarly, I notice improvements of K2 and K3 throughout > the years. My first K2 is #1146. My K3 is the first batch when I > paid half the price as deposit and waited for a couple of months to > get my K3. One thing of note here is that the K3 evolves by progressive updates that can be end-user installed. Most are firmware updates, but some quite easy hardware tweaks. So the EXPENSE of this evolution of the K3 is nearly zero, compared to the Icom path of just spending another $10k for the next iteration. 73, Tnx for your comments. Oliver Johns W6ODJ ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Re： K3 VS 7600 Sherwood List
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In reply to this post by Guy, K2AV
>From Guy Olinger K2AV Sunday, September 06, 2009 3:24 AM > In general are you talking about CW or SSB or both? If SSB, I find > that the controlling aspect of close signals is transmitted splatter, > which no receiver can do anything to improve. Some really poor front > ends make that worse. Hi Guy, Without doubt there are many SSB transmitters heard on the ham bands which do generate splatter, but the operator of a "clean" and properly driven SSB transmitter risks being accused of generating splatter by somebody whose receiver is generating the splatter. You have mentioned poor front ends, to which I would add poor filters (in terms of Group Delay Variations out to the stopband regions), and small dynamic range IF systems as found in many if not most commercial amateur receivers. If the ARRL would run complete dynamic range tests, then 'weak' IF systems would be exposed in the reviews. Transmitter generated splatter can be dealt with by a receiver, but the receiver's IF system MUST have a large in-passband 3rd order dynamic range if analog splatter removal techniques are used. 73, Geoff GM4ESD ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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