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K3 and RTTY

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Robert 'RC' Conley

K3 and RTTY

I would like to start RTTY operations and I really don't know where to
begin to accomplish this task. I have a K3/100 with a P3 and a Dell laptop
that runs Windows 7 professional. Also use N1MM when contesting Any
directions would be helpful.
Thanks KC5WA

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k6dgw

Re: K3 and RTTY

The easiest way is to go AFSK. It will take two stereo cables from RS
or wherever. Laptop LINE OUT goes to K3 LINE IN, K3 LINE OUT goes to
laptop LINE IN. If the laptop doesn't have a LINE IN, use the MIC jack.
K3 line out level is in a CONFIG: setting. When LINE IN is selected
in the menu the MIC gain becomes LINE IN gain. Be sure and select only
line in, there is an option which leaves your mic hot too.

N1MM has a digital window in the "Windows" menu. It has a RTTY TU but
it's not the best, most folks use MMTTY or 2TONE add-ons. MMTTY is
free, just download it. I think you also have to tell N1MM where MMTTY
is on your computer. MMTTY is fairly complex and has lots of
configuration abilities. It will work very well pretty much "out of the
box" however.

You will need to select the tone frequency in the K3 with the PITCH
control. I think there are 4 choices, I recommend 915 Hz, it's a lot
easier on your ears. You need to set that same tone freq in MMTTY. I
use NET on, AFC off, and UOS on. HAM=off, it forces the tones to the 2+
KHz standard.

In TX TEST, first adjust the MIC knob for 4 bars of ALC and the 5th
flickering when MMTTY is in transmit. THEN set your desired power
output with the PWR knob. You can't adjust the power out with the MIC
gain control.

You may need to cut the K3-->computer cable and put a 1:10 divider in it
if the K3 line output is too hot for the computer sound card input.

There are a lot of steps but once it's set up, you don't have to mess
with anything. Best to start and then ask specific questions.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
- www.cqp.org

On 1/29/2015 3:55 PM, Robert 'RC' Conley wrote:
> I would like to start RTTY operations and I really don't know where to
> begin to accomplish this task. I have a K3/100 with a P3 and a Dell laptop
> that runs Windows 7 professional. Also use N1MM when contesting Any
> directions would be helpful.
> Thanks KC5WA
>

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ve3dvy

Re: K3 and RTTY

In reply to this post by Robert 'RC' Conley

Here is a good document that I found online that I used for reference
when I was setting up that will help it describes using N1MM and the
K3 and has a good section on using MMTTY and AFSK

http://www.n3me.net follow the howto link and select

N1MM software - control radio and log contests via computer and
Elecraft K3

if you are willing to build the interface you can also use FSK I
plan to have this built soon. but I am using AFSK just fine for now
FSK just makes things a little easier as you do not have to worry
about audio levels etc.

http://n6mw.jimdo.com/k3-project/

I would however suggest that if you are using AFSK that you consider
a good external sound card like the Tascam card often discussed on
this list as the internal soundcard in most laptop including dell
tendto be noisy

I hope you have luck with it and if so perhaps we will meet in the
CQ WPX RTTY.

David Moes
VE3DVY

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k6dgw

Re: K3 and RTTY

In reply to this post by k6dgw

Ummmm ... I've never understood the infatuation with FSK over AFSK,
especially for someone just trying RTTY out for the first time. If the
sound card produces clean audio [pure sine wave sans noise], and most
newer ones do these days, the result at RF is essentially the same, with
less equipment. The K3 also has a shaping filter when running AFSK that
makes AFSK cleaner than FSK, or so I've read.

My "radio laptop" is a fairly new [1 yr] quad-core Acer running Windows
7. On the spectrum analyzer, any undesirable products other than the
single tones are lost in the minuscule noise on the baseline.

There can be other reasons for running FSK with the extra interface
equipment which usually offers other features beside FSK, but for
someone just trying out RTTY, "less is definitely more." There is a
steady stream of traffic on this list from people trying to get
MicroHam, SignalLink, or other interfaces working, so it's definitely
not a piece of cake. MMTTY is tough enough for a newbie.

The K3 does have a potential "gotcha" which is easy to avoid if you know
about it. The RF Power is controlled by a closed-loop ALC system. The
power knob sets the "requested" power, the loop then adjusts the drive
to make that power. Consequently, you cannot adjust the output power
with the MIC/LINE IN front panel gain control. Adjust the MIC/LINE IN
control for 4 solid ALC bars with the 5th just flickering when sending
idles [diddles]. Then set the desired power with the PWR knob.

There's almost no conversational RTTY anymore, it's pretty much all
contesting.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
- www.cqp.org

On 1/29/2015 5:15 PM, RIchard Williams wrote:
> Though AFSK will work, I think you will be a lot happier with using FSK.

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 and RTTY

On 2015-01-30 6:29 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
> Ummmm ... I've never understood the infatuation with FSK over AFSK,
> especially for someone just trying RTTY out for the first time. If
> the sound card produces clean audio [pure sine wave sans noise], and
> most newer ones do these days, the result at RF is essentially the
> same, with less equipment.

That *ASS-U-MEs* that the person hooking up and configuring the AFSK
knows what they are doing. Given the number to particularly gross
AFSK signals on the air today, that assumption is not a good one.

The manufacturer of one "inexpensive" amateur sound interface even
instructs its users to run the Windows sliders at maximum (it needs
that because its internal VOX is not sensitive enough otherwise) but
that drives the poorly filtered and unregulated DAC into distortion.
Couple that with improper grounding and overdriving mic preamps in
many rigs and you have a recipe for garbage - before even considering
all the "windows noises", streaming audio, and open mic stuff that
gets on the air ... none of which happen with FSK.

While it may be true that a proper AFSK signal is cleaner than FSK in
many rigs (the K3 FSK is exceptionally clean - as clean as the filtered
AFSK), it takes very little to make AFSK absolute garbage - most users
can't mess up FSK any more than the manufacturer's design.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2015-01-30 6:29 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

> Ummmm ... I've never understood the infatuation with FSK over AFSK,
> especially for someone just trying RTTY out for the first time. If the
> sound card produces clean audio [pure sine wave sans noise], and most
> newer ones do these days, the result at RF is essentially the same, with
> less equipment. The K3 also has a shaping filter when running AFSK that
> makes AFSK cleaner than FSK, or so I've read.
>
> My "radio laptop" is a fairly new [1 yr] quad-core Acer running Windows
> 7. On the spectrum analyzer, any undesirable products other than the
> single tones are lost in the minuscule noise on the baseline.
>
> There can be other reasons for running FSK with the extra interface
> equipment which usually offers other features beside FSK, but for
> someone just trying out RTTY, "less is definitely more." There is a
> steady stream of traffic on this list from people trying to get
> MicroHam, SignalLink, or other interfaces working, so it's definitely
> not a piece of cake. MMTTY is tough enough for a newbie.
>
> The K3 does have a potential "gotcha" which is easy to avoid if you know
> about it. The RF Power is controlled by a closed-loop ALC system. The
> power knob sets the "requested" power, the loop then adjusts the drive
> to make that power. Consequently, you cannot adjust the output power
> with the MIC/LINE IN front panel gain control. Adjust the MIC/LINE IN
> control for 4 solid ALC bars with the 5th just flickering when sending
> idles [diddles]. Then set the desired power with the PWR knob.
>
> There's almost no conversational RTTY anymore, it's pretty much all
> contesting.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
> - www.cqp.org
>
> On 1/29/2015 5:15 PM, RIchard Williams wrote:
>> Though AFSK will work, I think you will be a lot happier with using FSK.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Tony Estep

Re: K3 and RTTY

In reply to this post by k6dgw

On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ummmm ... I've never understood the infatuation with FSK over AFSK....
>
> For those who believe that FSK has some advantage over AFSK for purity
signal or some other reason, K0SM has posted a detailed web page showing
the spectra of signals generated by both, using various transmitter
adjustments. Check it out at:

http://www.frontiernet.net/~aflowers/k3rtty/k3rtty.html

This page has many virtues. It shows how to do a nice job of research and
how to document it for the reader; it offers useful info about setting up
your RTTY station; and it provides hard data, which is a lot better than
relying on conventional wisdom.

73, Tony KT0NY
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 and RTTY

> This page has many virtues. It shows how to do a nice job of research
> and how to document it for the reader; it offers useful info about
> setting up your RTTY station; and it provides hard data, which is a
> lot better than relying on conventional wisdom.

Unfortunately, K0SM's paper has flaws in its premise that render the
conclusions hardly persuasive.

1) the FSK measurements were made with the *original* K3 FSK generator
not the most recent shaped FSK. Even though the original K3 FSK was
better than most, the current DSP implementation is much better and
provides FSK indistinguishable from the filtered AFSK.

2) the AFSK measurements were made using Line In and did not include
effects common to overdriving the microphone preamp as happens in
many rigs.

3) in the K3, AFSK_A disables mic compression and RF clipping. That
is not the case in other transceivers operated in SSB mode. The mic
compression and RF clipping is one source of AFSK distortion and
harmonic generation.

4) the AFSK measurements were made with the K3's AFSK TX filter in
line. That filter removes substantially all the hum and distortion
present in other transceivers when the ground (audio) return is open,
the sound card DAC is driven into the distortion producing range
(typical at output levels greater than 60%), and/or the mic preamp is
being overdriven. Andy's tests with all knobs full bore proved that
the K3 is capable of cleaning up signals that would be a disaster with
many other rigs.

5) The K3 does not use a "closed loop" ALC which generates overshoot
and "pumping" distortion. Again, these effects are common on other
manufacturer's transceivers and are often responsible for a high
preponderance of the "clicks" in both FSK and AFSK signals from those
transceivers.

I have off the air spectrum captures of W1AW with their top of the
line Icom rigs and professional operators that show *all* of the
issues of overdrive, loss of signal return and ALC effects even when
driven by supposedly "clean" AFSK signals from fldigi. Again, AFSK
requires far more operator attention to "signal hygiene" than does FSK
if the result is to be acceptable (that is, unless one is using a K3).

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2015-01-30 9:34 PM, Tony Estep wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Ummmm ... I've never understood the infatuation with FSK over AFSK....
>>
>> For those who believe that FSK has some advantage over AFSK for purity
> signal or some other reason, K0SM has posted a detailed web page showing
> the spectra of signals generated by both, using various transmitter
> adjustments. Check it out at:
>
> http://www.frontiernet.net/~aflowers/k3rtty/k3rtty.html
>
> This page has many virtues. It shows how to do a nice job of research and
> how to document it for the reader; it offers useful info about setting up
> your RTTY station; and it provides hard data, which is a lot better than
> relying on conventional wisdom.
>
> 73, Tony KT0NY
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

k6dgw

Re: K3 and RTTY

Items, questions, and requests do tend to morph on this list. While I
don't disagree with your reply, please keep in mind ... the original
request was from someone who wanted to try RTTY for the first time, and
that's where my reply was directed. I wanted to make it as easy as
possible for him, and unquestionably, two steero cables and AFSK is
that. With a K3, that will work, and won't clobber folks near him

He may choose other methods or indeed modes, all he seemed to want was
initial advice. You're not wrong, you rarely if ever are, but the
information may be misplaced in this case. He just wanted to get started.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
- www.cqp.org

On 1/30/2015 7:19 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>
>> This page has many virtues. It shows how to do a nice job of research
>> and how to document it for the reader; it offers useful info about
>> setting up your RTTY station; and it provides hard data, which is a
>> lot better than relying on conventional wisdom.
>
> Unfortunately, K0SM's paper has flaws in its premise that render the
> conclusions hardly persuasive.
>
> 1) the FSK measurements were made with the *original* K3 FSK generator
> not the most recent shaped FSK. Even though the original K3 FSK was
> better than most, the current DSP implementation is much better and
> provides FSK indistinguishable from the filtered AFSK.
>
> 2) the AFSK measurements were made using Line In and did not include
> effects common to overdriving the microphone preamp as happens in
> many rigs.
>
> 3) in the K3, AFSK_A disables mic compression and RF clipping. That
> is not the case in other transceivers operated in SSB mode. The mic
> compression and RF clipping is one source of AFSK distortion and
> harmonic generation.
>
> 4) the AFSK measurements were made with the K3's AFSK TX filter in
> line. That filter removes substantially all the hum and distortion
> present in other transceivers when the ground (audio) return is open,
> the sound card DAC is driven into the distortion producing range
> (typical at output levels greater than 60%), and/or the mic preamp is
> being overdriven. Andy's tests with all knobs full bore proved that
> the K3 is capable of cleaning up signals that would be a disaster with
> many other rigs.
>
> 5) The K3 does not use a "closed loop" ALC which generates overshoot
> and "pumping" distortion. Again, these effects are common on other
> manufacturer's transceivers and are often responsible for a high
> preponderance of the "clicks" in both FSK and AFSK signals from those
> transceivers.
>
> I have off the air spectrum captures of W1AW with their top of the
> line Icom rigs and professional operators that show *all* of the
> issues of overdrive, loss of signal return and ALC effects even when
> driven by supposedly "clean" AFSK signals from fldigi. Again, AFSK
> requires far more operator attention to "signal hygiene" than does FSK
> if the result is to be acceptable (that is, unless one is using a K3).
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 2015-01-30 9:34 PM, Tony Estep wrote:
>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Ummmm ... I've never understood the infatuation with FSK over AFSK....
>>>
>>> For those who believe that FSK has some advantage over AFSK for purity
>> signal or some other reason, K0SM has posted a detailed web page showing
>> the spectra of signals generated by both, using various transmitter
>> adjustments. Check it out at:
>>
>> http://www.frontiernet.net/~aflowers/k3rtty/k3rtty.html
>>
>> This page has many virtues. It shows how to do a nice job of research and
>> how to document it for the reader; it offers useful info about setting up
>> your RTTY station; and it provides hard data, which is a lot better than
>> relying on conventional wisdom.
>>
>> 73, Tony KT0NY
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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Wes (N7WS)

Re: K3 and RTTY

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Well, since the subject is "K3 and RTTY", isn't it fairly safe to assume that a
K3 would be in this picture? If so, then AFSK is, IMHO, the simplest method and
you agree that it "is acceptable."

Wes N7WS

On 1/30/2015 8:19 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: