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K3 and Sequencer

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Ron Meiring

K3 and Sequencer

I think many of us would use the K3 not only on HF but also for VHF
because of the excellent phase noise characteristics and dynamic
range.

As such a sequencer build into the K3 would be ideal to switch the PA
and antenna relays.

Would it be possible to make an option board for this.
This would be a minor task for the CPU, but would be so neat!

I want one, any one else intrested ?

73 Ron VK4KDD.

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Samuel Strongin

Re: K3 and Sequencer

Give the E guy's a break and build your own sequencer,or buy one from DEM
for $90, 73 kf4yox
Hf -3456Mhz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Meiring" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 7:18 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 and Sequencer

>I think many of us would use the K3 not only on HF but also for VHF
> because of the excellent phase noise characteristics and dynamic
> range.
>
> As such a sequencer build into the K3 would be ideal to switch the PA
> and antenna relays.
>
> Would it be possible to make an option board for this.
> This would be a minor task for the CPU, but would be so neat!
>
> I want one, any one else intrested ?
>
> 73 Ron VK4KDD.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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>
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> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Evert Bakker (PA2KW)

RE: K3 and Sequencer

In reply to this post by Ron Meiring

Hello Ron,

Yes I am.
I raised this issue several month ago during the announcement of the K3.
I did suggest the "Ten-Tec solution" which works fantastic.
Before RF gets out (either from the main antenna or transverter RF-out), the
TX-Request initiated by the PTT/VOX/Key from the K3 (which should be
available on one of it's acc connectors) has to confirmed (TX-Enable) by the
sequencer. Together with the KXV3 board, it would be a fantastic solution to
use this radio for serious VHF/UHF operation.
Either Eric or Wayne (forgot who answered me) put this topic on the
wish-list and promised me to contact me (and others) if and when they decide
to add this option.

I'm most willing to develop a sequencer-board and make it available when the
K3 will have this option integrated.

I do have a homebrew sequencer and audio-interface for using FSK441 and JT65
on 144 Mc together with my homebrew transverter but a "quick and dirty" one.

Let's keep in touch.

73's, Evert PA2KW

_____________________________________________________________________
I think many of us would use the K3 not only on HF but also for VHF
because of the excellent phase noise characteristics and dynamic
range.

As such a sequencer build into the K3 would be ideal to switch the PA
and antenna relays.

Would it be possible to make an option board for this.
This would be a minor task for the CPU, but would be so neat!

I want one, any one else intrested ?

73 Ron VK4KDD.
____________________________________________________________________

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Evert Bakker (PA2KW)

RE: K3 and Sequencer

In reply to this post by Samuel Strongin

Sir,

It's always good to exchange thoughts about the possible use and features of
Elecraft products. I know the products of DEM but all of them doesn't
prevent the exiter to give RF if one piece of the added hardware isn't
working properly.

73's Evert PA2KW

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Samuel Strongin
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 13:50
To: Ron Meiring; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 and Sequencer

Give the E guy's a break and build your own sequencer,or buy one from DEM
for $90, 73 kf4yox

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dj7mgq

Re: K3 and Sequencer

Hi Evert,

> prevent the exiter to give RF if one piece of the added hardware isn't
> working properly.

This, I suppose, would be fairly easy to do with an external piece of
hardware, assuming that the various devices/switches offer you some kind
of feed back, and you route your keyer, foot switch, etc. through it.

It might be a nifty kit for Elecraft to offer, and as a spin off
Elecraft could (maybe) offer internal versions for the K2, K3 and/or
transverters.

vy 73 de toby
--
DD5FZ (ex 4n6fz, dj7mgq, dg5mgq, dd5fz)
K2 #885, K2/100 #3248
K3/100 #??? (< #200)
DOK C12, BCC, DL-QRP-AG
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Tom Hammond-2

RE: K3 and Sequencer

In reply to this post by Evert Bakker (PA2KW)

Fellas:

Not being a VHF guy, please help me understand the need for a sequencer...

The K3 already issues a T-R relay output closure some tome before RF is
generated at it's output. This allows external devices 'down stream' of
the K3 itself to actuate their T-R relays so they will be in-line by the
time RF hits them. I'm using this pre-keying to ensure that my QSK HF
amp (which uses both reed and vacuum relays for internal T-R switching)
is in-line, to prevent 'hot keying' of its T-R relays.

I think the K3's present pre-keying is about 20 mS, but I may be off
there.

Does VHF operation require a significantly longer set of pre-keying
signals? And if so, how many are required to sequentially key the down-
stream devices?

And, is it the concern that one of the down-stream devices might be so
slow that it doesn't get switched in time, so there must be a sequencer
present to ensure that EVERY device HAS actually been switched before
the K3 would be allowed to generate RF? I guess QSK is NOT of any
concern when operating on these bands... right?

73,

Tom Hammond N0SS

At 07:02 09/23/2007, Evert Bakker (PA2KW) wrote:

>Hello Ron,
>
>Yes I am.
>I raised this issue several month ago during the announcement of the K3.
>I did suggest the "Ten-Tec solution" which works fantastic.
>Before RF gets out (either from the main antenna or transverter RF-out), the
>TX-Request initiated by the PTT/VOX/Key from the K3 (which should be
>available on one of it's acc connectors) has to confirmed (TX-Enable) by the
>sequencer. Together with the KXV3 board, it would be a fantastic solution to
>use this radio for serious VHF/UHF operation.
>Either Eric or Wayne (forgot who answered me) put this topic on the
>wish-list and promised me to contact me (and others) if and when they decide
>to add this option.
>
>I'm most willing to develop a sequencer-board and make it available when the
>K3 will have this option integrated.
>
>I do have a homebrew sequencer and audio-interface for using FSK441 and JT65
>on 144 Mc together with my homebrew transverter but a "quick and dirty" one.
>
>Let's keep in touch.
>
>73's, Evert PA2KW
>
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>I think many of us would use the K3 not only on HF but also for VHF
>because of the excellent phase noise characteristics and dynamic
>range.
>
>As such a sequencer build into the K3 would be ideal to switch the PA
>and antenna relays.
>
>Would it be possible to make an option board for this.
>This would be a minor task for the CPU, but would be so neat!
>
>I want one, any one else intrested ?
>
>73 Ron VK4KDD.
>____________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Post to: [hidden email]
>You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Post to: [hidden email]
>You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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>Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Alexandr Kobranov

Re: K3 and Sequencer

In reply to this post by Ron Meiring

Hi Ron,

you are not alone - be sure!

This (sequencing) is also (IMHO) related to SemiBK/QSK mode in CW
without possibility to use only PTT. I hope this is already on some
wish-list.
And TX INHIBIT method mentioned by Evert is also very good idea.

I know that group of VHF/UHF/SHF operators with serious interest in K3
is not - maybe - so huge but, please, we do not want to buy FT-2000 or
similar :-) I know that some requests are "strange" but surely part of
them can have common advantage for all users.

Anyway K3 is my serious candidate for next year upgrade!
(today using TS-850, FT-897 and FT-1000 Mark V).

Thanks to all in Elecraft for all what was done!

73!
Lexa, ok1dst

Ron Meiring napsal(a):

> I think many of us would use the K3 not only on HF but also for VHF
> because of the excellent phase noise characteristics and dynamic
> range.
>
> As such a sequencer build into the K3 would be ideal to switch the PA
> and antenna relays.
>
> Would it be possible to make an option board for this.
> This would be a minor task for the CPU, but would be so neat!
>
> I want one, any one else intrested ?
>
> 73 Ron VK4KDD.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 and Sequencer

In reply to this post by Tom Hammond-2

Tom,

That is exactly the point - 20 ms is often not enough time to change
antennas and protect the preamps located on the tower. My CW PTT
addition to the K2 does provide a 'TX-enable' function and has found
application in several VHF installations that I am aware of. It is also
used in at least one SO2R HF installation to steer the active transmitter.

Yes, the best answer is to convert the remote switching to happen in
that 20 ms or less, but that is impractical with many many VHF
installations.

QSK is NOT important for that type of VHF operation, and in fact may be
undesirable.

73,
Don W3FPR

Tom Hammond wrote:

>
> I think the K3's present pre-keying is about 20 mS, but I may be off
> there.
>
> Does VHF operation require a significantly longer set of pre-keying
> signals? And if so, how many are required to sequentially key the down-
> stream devices?
>
> And, is it the concern that one of the down-stream devices might be so
> slow that it doesn't get switched in time, so there must be a sequencer
> present to ensure that EVERY device HAS actually been switched before
> the K3 would be allowed to generate RF? I guess QSK is NOT of any
> concern when operating on these bands... right?
>

James C. Hall, MD-2

RE: K3 and Sequencer

In reply to this post by Tom Hammond-2

Hi Tom:

Yes, this is definitely on my wish list. I presently use a FT-847 for
satellite ops and would love to just use a stack of transverters for all
VHF/UHF work with the K3.

I personally have not gotten to the level of needing a sequencer but if you
look at some of the published block diagrams of say, L-band operation (1.2
GHz), you will see that many feed an amplifier with another amplifier to get
enough power out. Additionally, on receive, you will generally have a
mast-mounted pre-amp that you DON'T want to transmit into. Some of these
sense RF and go to bypass, however. But you can see that this has to be done
in a certain order to prevent 'bad things' ! HI

73, Jamie
WB4YDL

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tom Hammond
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 8:25 AM
To: [hidden email]; 'Ron Meiring'; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 and Sequencer

Fellas:

Not being a VHF guy, please help me understand the need for a sequencer...

The K3 already issues a T-R relay output closure some tome before RF is
generated at it's output. This allows external devices 'down stream' of
the K3 itself to actuate their T-R relays so they will be in-line by the
time RF hits them. I'm using this pre-keying to ensure that my QSK HF
amp (which uses both reed and vacuum relays for internal T-R switching)
is in-line, to prevent 'hot keying' of its T-R relays.

I think the K3's present pre-keying is about 20 mS, but I may be off
there.

Does VHF operation require a significantly longer set of pre-keying
signals? And if so, how many are required to sequentially key the down-
stream devices?

And, is it the concern that one of the down-stream devices might be so
slow that it doesn't get switched in time, so there must be a sequencer
present to ensure that EVERY device HAS actually been switched before
the K3 would be allowed to generate RF? I guess QSK is NOT of any
concern when operating on these bands... right?

73,

Tom Hammond N0SS

At 07:02 09/23/2007, Evert Bakker (PA2KW) wrote:
>Hello Ron,
>
>Yes I am.
>I raised this issue several month ago during the announcement of the K3.
>I did suggest the "Ten-Tec solution" which works fantastic.
>Before RF gets out (either from the main antenna or transverter RF-out),
the
>TX-Request initiated by the PTT/VOX/Key from the K3 (which should be
>available on one of it's acc connectors) has to confirmed (TX-Enable) by
the
>sequencer. Together with the KXV3 board, it would be a fantastic solution
to
>use this radio for serious VHF/UHF operation.
>Either Eric or Wayne (forgot who answered me) put this topic on the
>wish-list and promised me to contact me (and others) if and when they
decide
>to add this option.
>
>I'm most willing to develop a sequencer-board and make it available when
the
>K3 will have this option integrated.
>
>I do have a homebrew sequencer and audio-interface for using FSK441 and
JT65
>on 144 Mc together with my homebrew transverter but a "quick and dirty"
one.

>
>Let's keep in touch.
>
>73's, Evert PA2KW
>
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>I think many of us would use the K3 not only on HF but also for VHF
>because of the excellent phase noise characteristics and dynamic
>range.
>
>As such a sequencer build into the K3 would be ideal to switch the PA
>and antenna relays.
>
>Would it be possible to make an option board for this.
>This would be a minor task for the CPU, but would be so neat!
>
>I want one, any one else intrested ?
>
>73 Ron VK4KDD.
>____________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Post to: [hidden email]
>You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Post to: [hidden email]
>You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

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Evert Bakker (PA2KW)

RE: K3 and Sequencer

In reply to this post by Tom Hammond-2

Hi Tom (and others),

I think Don answered almost complete to your question but
I'd like to elaborate a little on this subject which is unnecessary for and
even unknown by most HF operators.

For serious VHF/UHF operation, it is important to have a system with low
noise figure (typical between NF=0.1 to 0.5 dB). For HF typical NF can be
between 3 to 10 dB. The ONLY way to reach this factor is by putting a preamp
as close as possible to the antenna. Each dB of cable loss, will raise the
NF with the same level and makes especially moonbounce more difficult or
impossible. A preamp in the top of the tower means at least 1 coaxial
(power) relay at the same position. These ralays have to be coaxial, and are
not that fast due to the mechanical construction (bigger distance between
contacts to enable big cross attenuation). Switching times are typical
longer then 20 msec.
To make absolutely sure that the relay has switched over, I (and many more
VHF operators) gets a feedback from the relay itself. Don't forget that all
is outside and vulnerable (cables, connectors etc).

Another issue in sequencing is that many VHF amplifiers are not build with
zero-bias tubes. So the grid voltage has to be raised and stable before
injecting RF at the input.

To overcome this problem and additionally prevent hot switching, a sequencer
is needed and 20 msec is not enough. A complete RX>TX sequence may even need
500 msec.

Here my motivation for an addition/change/option in the K3:

It would be far too much to ask Elecraft to develop and/or integrate a
sequencer. But as the Mic-PTT, external PTT, VOX, Key and/or paddle is
already combined into 1 single TX request (to the central processor) in the
HF-rig which finally puts the TX voltage on the parts needed (8T line) it
would be much more efficient for a small group of Elecraft users if that
signal is made available at one of the acc connectors. A TX-enable signal
from the sequencer to the HF-rig could close the loop or complete the
sequence so to say.

In my opinion it is almost all about software and could be activated only in
the tranverter mode of the K3. A regular HF user won't even notice this
option and therefore there is no need for a special VHF version of the K3.
So why not if it makes the radio interesting for this group.
And don't worry, we will design, build or buy our own sequencers.
There are several thousands of serious VHF/UHF-ers. We are a market
opportunity, not a thread :-). We are not buying Elecraft equipment because
its appearance, but because it works so great and meets our expectations!

73's, Evert PA2KW

For 144 Mc
Ant: 2x16 el
Preamp: NF 0.3 dB
PA: YL1056 2.9 kW
XVRT: Home designed and build
TRCV: K2(4836)

For HF:
Ant: Optibeam OB11-5 / Alpha-Delta DX-B
PA: Drake L7
TRCV: Drake TR7/R7

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Ron Meiring

Re: K3 and Sequencer

In reply to this post by Samuel Strongin

VK4TZL Replied to me:

Hi Ronnie,

I agree with your idea of a sequencer inside the K3.

Both the K2 and the K3 have delayed keying, but it is not long enough
for multiple external devices to settle down.

It may happen in time as Eric and Wayne catch up on the wish list
that is getting longer every day, but my solution is this...

http://www.w6pql.com/relay_sequencer.htm

I bought two of these, and they are bloody great...very small, 4
Output, variable timing...and they would easily fit inside a K3, so
you could " Roll your Own " Sequencer
and make it inside the K3 with connectors added to the rear of the
Radio...and as there are TWO Blanking Panels on the Radio now (
Depending on how you
configure it ) it should be easy...that's what I'm going to do, and
have the boards ready and waiting.

73
Glenn

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 07:49:32 -0400, Samuel Strongin wrote:

>Give the E guy's a break and build your own sequencer,or buy one
>from DEM
>for $90, 73 kf4yox
>Hf -3456Mhz
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ron Meiring" <[hidden email]>
>To: <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 7:18 AM
>Subject: [Elecraft] K3 and Sequencer
>
>
>>I think many of us would use the K3 not only on HF but also for VHF
>>because of the excellent phase noise characteristics and dynamic
>>range.
>>
>>As such a sequencer build into the K3 would be ideal to switch the
>>PA
>>and antenna relays.
>>
>>Would it be possible to make an option board for this.
>>This would be a minor task for the CPU, but would be so neat!
>>
>>I want one, any one else intrested ?
>>
>>73 Ron VK4KDD.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Elecraft mailing list
>>Post to: [hidden email]
>>You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>>Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>>http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>
>>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>>Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com