K3 antenna tuner question
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K3 antenna tuner question
 
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I have a K3/100 with the internal antenna tuner. The config is set to AUTO
but it seems that I still have to press the ATU tune button to get the ATU to properly tune when I change bands. Is it supposed to be automatic or not? -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-antenna-tuner-question-tp6396729p6396729.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Bill Swindell - K1LED
<[hidden email]> wrote: > I have a K3/100 with the internal antenna tuner. The config is set to AUTO > but it seems that I still have to press the ATU tune button to get the ATU > to properly tune when I change bands. Is it supposed to be automatic or not? I'm confused, are their radios that in real-time tune a LC network to whatever band/frequency you are on? If you use an analyzer to graph your VSWR curve across a band, and you are pretty flat (say 1:1.5 across the whole band), then you really don't need to re-tune after the first shot. However, when you switch bands you switch frequency which means unless your VSWR is low across all bands of interest, you need to tune up again. I think though the ATU has some memory with respect to what band you are on which helps. I don't think the K3 is any different than other high-end rigs? Am I wrong? -aps (KC2ZSX) ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Bill Swindell - K1LED
"Automatic" is a word with lots of meanings. When it is in "AUTO" and
you tap ATU TUNE, it will "automatically" find a match using the power you have set in CONFIG:TUN PWR. Mine is set to 5W. It then "remembers" the L/C settings for that band segment for the ANT selection you are using [1 or 2]. The next time you are in that band segment using that ANT selection, it recalls the settings the first time you transmit [PTT or KEY]. The band segment sizes depend on the band. I believe they are: 160: 10 KHz 80-12: 20 KHz 10: 100 KHz 6: 200 KHz You can just let the memorized settings accrue as you operate normally, or you can methodically go through the bands and set them all. I did the latter, tuning to the middle of each segment with the antenna I normally use, and tapping ATU TUNE. Seems to work really good. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2011 Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2011 - www.cqp.org On 5/23/2011 4:45 PM, Bill Swindell - K1LED wrote: > I have a K3/100 with the internal antenna tuner. The config is set to AUTO > but it seems that I still have to press the ATU tune button to get the ATU > to properly tune when I change bands. Is it supposed to be automatic or not? ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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It is also engaged/bypassed per band per antenna according to the
remembered setting on that band/antenna combination. 73, Guy. On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 6:38 PM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote: > "Automatic" is a word with lots of meanings. When it is in "AUTO" and > you tap ATU TUNE, it will "automatically" find a match using the power > you have set in CONFIG:TUN PWR. Mine is set to 5W. It then "remembers" > the L/C settings for that band segment for the ANT selection you are > using [1 or 2]. The next time you are in that band segment using that > ANT selection, it recalls the settings the first time you transmit [PTT > or KEY]. > > The band segment sizes depend on the band. I believe they are: > > 160: 10 KHz > 80-12: 20 KHz > 10: 100 KHz > 6: 200 KHz > > You can just let the memorized settings accrue as you operate normally, > or you can methodically go through the bands and set them all. I did > the latter, tuning to the middle of each segment with the antenna I > normally use, and tapping ATU TUNE. Seems to work really good. > > 73, > > Fred K6DGW > - Northern California Contest Club > - CU in the 2011 Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2011 > - www.cqp.org > > On 5/23/2011 4:45 PM, Bill Swindell - K1LED wrote: >> I have a K3/100 with the internal antenna tuner. The config is set to AUTO >> but it seems that I still have to press the ATU tune button to get the ATU >> to properly tune when I change bands. Is it supposed to be automatic or not? > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Alexander Sack
On 5/25/2011 3:20 PM, Alexander Sack wrote:
> I'm confused, are their radios that in real-time tune a LC network to > whatever band/frequency you are on? If you mean they tune for a match every time you press the key, I don't think so. Most ATU's remember settings as the KAT3 does so they don't need to run the matching algorithm [with attendant relay clatter and delay finding the match] > > If you use an analyzer to graph your VSWR curve across a band, and you > are pretty flat (say 1:1.5 across the whole band), then you really > don't need to re-tune after the first shot. The mfr can't predict what sort of load you're going to put onto the ATU. Every one I know of divides the bands into segments. Segments are small on 160 to keep the ratio of segment size to frequency small. Higher frequency bands can have larger segment sizes for the same ratio. > I think though the ATU has some memory with respect to what band you > are on which helps. See previous answer to K1LED who you quoted at the beginning of your post. > > I don't think the K3 is any different than other high-end rigs? Am I wrong? You are not wrong. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2011 Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2011 - www.cqp.org ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by k6dgw
FRed, I agree with everything you wrote, except I think you'll find CONFIG:TUN PWR control the power used when you HOLD TUNE - it controls the power used for 'key down' to tune an external ATU.
The KAT3 will use a much lower power than that for it's internal tuner I believe. 73 de M0XDF, K3 #174, P3 #108, KX3 #??? -- A child, like your stomach, doesn't need all you can afford to give it. -Frank A. Clark, writer (1911- ) On 25 May 2011, at 23:38, Fred Jensen wrote: > "Automatic" is a word with lots of meanings. When it is in "AUTO" and > you tap ATU TUNE, it will "automatically" find a match using the power > you have set in CONFIG:TUN PWR. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: K3 antenna tuner question
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Another thing about the K3 ATU is, that it sometimes stops at an LC combination which is NOT identical to the LC combination giving the lowest SWR. If that happens you can manually change the L or C to obtain the lowest SWR - but it is a bit cumbersome - and not what you expect from an automatic tuner. I only have this problem when it is raining (antennas are partially hidden in trees and use 450 ohm open feeder and 4:1 baluns in the shack)
73 de OZ4UN -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] På vegne af David Ferrington, M0XDF Sendt: 26. maj 2011 08:28 Til: [hidden email] Cc: Elecraft Reflector Emne: Re: [Elecraft] K3 antenna tuner question FRed, I agree with everything you wrote, except I think you'll find CONFIG:TUN PWR control the power used when you HOLD TUNE - it controls the power used for 'key down' to tune an external ATU. The KAT3 will use a much lower power than that for it's internal tuner I believe. 73 de M0XDF, K3 #174, P3 #108, KX3 #??? -- A child, like your stomach, doesn't need all you can afford to give it. -Frank A. Clark, writer (1911- ) On 25 May 2011, at 23:38, Fred Jensen wrote: > "Automatic" is a word with lots of meanings. When it is in "AUTO" and > you tap ATU TUNE, it will "automatically" find a match using the power > you have set in CONFIG:TUN PWR. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: K3 antenna tuner question
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In reply to this post by M0XDF
As I recall, the K3 uses a combination of 5w and 10w during the auto tune routine. This is independent of the TUN:PWR setting. From observation, there is a fair amount of difference in measured SWR at lower power levels which begins to stabilize around the 5w level.
73, Chuck, AA3CS Sent from my iPhone On May 26, 2011, at 2:28 AM, "David Ferrington, M0XDF" <[hidden email]> wrote: > ... > The KAT3 will use a much lower power than that for it's internal tuner I believe. > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
73 - Chuck, AA3CS
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In reply to this post by Poul Erik Karlshøj (PKA)
A quick way to find the best LC combinations manually is to tune them
for maximum receiver noise. You can refine this further by using the K3's AFV meter to measure the noise level of the different promising LC combinations. I have done this on some problem frequencies to improve the match over that obtained by the auto tuning. I suppose such a "silent" tuning routine could be included in the firmware. Not sure this would yield any different results than the sutomatic SWR tuning method; I suppose it could have the advantage of being able to be performed at a much more leisurely pace than would be desirable using the transmitter. A reminder abou auto tuning-- if you hit ATU TUNE a second time within a few seconds of the first tuning operation it is supposed to find a better match. However, I have noticed that the second tune sometimes gives a worse SWR than the first one. (May be due to the variable nature of my antenna-- bare wire through tree branches...) 73, Drew AF2Z On Thu, 26 May 2011 07:31:53 -0200, you wrote: >Another thing about the K3 ATU is, that it sometimes stops at an LC combination which is NOT identical to the LC combination giving the lowest SWR. If that happens you can manually change the L or C to obtain the lowest SWR - but it is a bit cumbersome - and not what you expect from an automatic tuner. I only have this problem when it is raining (antennas are partially hidden in trees and use 450 ohm open feeder and 4:1 baluns in the shack) >73 de OZ4UN > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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On 'problem' frequencies, re-doing the tune soon after the first try has
always brought a better swr for me, but I have no wires amongst branches which I think means you may be getting hit and miss good tunes. David G3UNA >A quick way to find the best LC combinations manually is to tune them > for maximum receiver noise. You can refine this further by using the > K3's AFV meter to measure the noise level of the different promising > LC combinations. > > > A reminder abou auto tuning-- if you hit ATU TUNE a second time within > a few seconds of the first tuning operation it is supposed to find a > better match. However, I have noticed that the second tune sometimes > gives a worse SWR than the first one. (May be due to the variable > nature of my antenna-- bare wire through tree branches...) > > 73, > Drew > AF2Z > > > On Thu, 26 May 2011 07:31:53 -0200, you wrote: > >>Another thing about the K3 ATU is, that it sometimes stops at an LC >>combination which is NOT identical to the LC combination giving the lowest >>SWR. If that happens you can manually change the L or C to obtain the >>lowest SWR - but it is a bit cumbersome - and not what you expect from an >>automatic tuner. I only have this problem when it is raining (antennas are >>partially hidden in trees and use 450 ohm open feeder and 4:1 baluns in >>the shack) >>73 de OZ4UN >> ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: K3 antenna tuner question
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I don't think the problem is due to good tunes being misses by antenna being "hit", because when it happens, it is very reproductive, i.e. you can repeat the ATU tuning and it will always come back to the non-optimum LC combination.
Paul OZ4UN -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] På vegne af David Cutter Sendt: 26. maj 2011 14:54 Til: drewko; [hidden email] Emne: Re: [Elecraft] K3 antenna tuner question On 'problem' frequencies, re-doing the tune soon after the first try has always brought a better swr for me, but I have no wires amongst branches which I think means you may be getting hit and miss good tunes. David G3UNA >A quick way to find the best LC combinations manually is to tune them >for maximum receiver noise. You can refine this further by using the >K3's AFV meter to measure the noise level of the different promising >LC combinations. > > > A reminder abou auto tuning-- if you hit ATU TUNE a second time within > a few seconds of the first tuning operation it is supposed to find a > better match. However, I have noticed that the second tune sometimes > gives a worse SWR than the first one. (May be due to the variable > nature of my antenna-- bare wire through tree branches...) > > 73, > Drew > AF2Z > > > On Thu, 26 May 2011 07:31:53 -0200, you wrote: > >>Another thing about the K3 ATU is, that it sometimes stops at an LC >>combination which is NOT identical to the LC combination giving the >>lowest SWR. If that happens you can manually change the L or C to >>obtain the lowest SWR - but it is a bit cumbersome - and not what you >>expect from an automatic tuner. I only have this problem when it is >>raining (antennas are partially hidden in trees and use 450 ohm open >>feeder and 4:1 baluns in the shack) >>73 de OZ4UN >> ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Having a lot of water around means that the antenna impedance changes
with the power level. I have seen this many times here on 160 with wet leaves very close to wires, and sometimes touching. I can watch the SWR vary under a steady 1500 watts, something not seen or far less obvious at 5 watts. No attempt at explanation. 73, Guy. On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Poul Erik Karlshøj (PKA) <[hidden email]> wrote: > I don't think the problem is due to good tunes being misses by antenna being "hit", because when it happens, it is very reproductive, i.e. you can repeat the ATU tuning and it will always come back to the non-optimum LC combination. > Paul > OZ4UN > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- > Fra: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] På vegne af David Cutter > Sendt: 26. maj 2011 14:54 > Til: drewko; [hidden email] > Emne: Re: [Elecraft] K3 antenna tuner question > > On 'problem' frequencies, re-doing the tune soon after the first try has always brought a better swr for me, but I have no wires amongst branches which I think means you may be getting hit and miss good tunes. > > David > G3UNA > >>A quick way to find the best LC combinations manually is to tune them >>for maximum receiver noise. You can refine this further by using the >>K3's AFV meter to measure the noise level of the different promising >>LC combinations. >> > >> A reminder abou auto tuning-- if you hit ATU TUNE a second time within >> a few seconds of the first tuning operation it is supposed to find a >> better match. However, I have noticed that the second tune sometimes >> gives a worse SWR than the first one. (May be due to the variable >> nature of my antenna-- bare wire through tree branches...) >> >> 73, >> Drew >> AF2Z >> >> >> On Thu, 26 May 2011 07:31:53 -0200, you wrote: >> >>>Another thing about the K3 ATU is, that it sometimes stops at an LC >>>combination which is NOT identical to the LC combination giving the >>>lowest SWR. If that happens you can manually change the L or C to >>>obtain the lowest SWR - but it is a bit cumbersome - and not what you >>>expect from an automatic tuner. I only have this problem when it is >>>raining (antennas are partially hidden in trees and use 450 ohm open >>>feeder and 4:1 baluns in the shack) >>>73 de OZ4UN >>> > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: K3 antenna tuner question
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Thats an interesting observation Guy. Anybody out there who can explain? Now, the ATU process is done at low power, so there should be some other explanation why the K3 ATU fails to stop at the best LC combination. 73 Poul-Erik -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] På vegne af Guy Olinger K2AV Sendt: 26. maj 2011 19:32 Til: Poul Erik Karlshøj (PKA) Cc: David Cutter; drewko; [hidden email] Emne: Re: [Elecraft] K3 antenna tuner question Having a lot of water around means that the antenna impedance changes with the power level. I have seen this many times here on 160 with wet leaves very close to wires, and sometimes touching. I can watch the SWR vary under a steady 1500 watts, something not seen or far less obvious at 5 watts. No attempt at explanation. 73, Guy. On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Poul Erik Karlshøj (PKA) <[hidden email]> wrote: > I don't think the problem is due to good tunes being misses by antenna being "hit", because when it happens, it is very reproductive, i.e. you can repeat the ATU tuning and it will always come back to the non-optimum LC combination. > Paul > OZ4UN > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- > Fra: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] På vegne af David Cutter > Sendt: 26. maj 2011 14:54 > Til: drewko; [hidden email] > Emne: Re: [Elecraft] K3 antenna tuner question > > On 'problem' frequencies, re-doing the tune soon after the first try has always brought a better swr for me, but I have no wires amongst branches which I think means you may be getting hit and miss good tunes. > > David > G3UNA > >>A quick way to find the best LC combinations manually is to tune them >>for maximum receiver noise. You can refine this further by using the >>K3's AFV meter to measure the noise level of the different promising >>LC combinations. >> > >> A reminder abou auto tuning-- if you hit ATU TUNE a second time >> within a few seconds of the first tuning operation it is supposed to >> find a better match. However, I have noticed that the second tune >> sometimes gives a worse SWR than the first one. (May be due to the >> variable nature of my antenna-- bare wire through tree branches...) >> >> 73, >> Drew >> AF2Z >> >> >> On Thu, 26 May 2011 07:31:53 -0200, you wrote: >> >>>Another thing about the K3 ATU is, that it sometimes stops at an LC >>>combination which is NOT identical to the LC combination giving the >>>lowest SWR. If that happens you can manually change the L or C to >>>obtain the lowest SWR - but it is a bit cumbersome - and not what you >>>expect from an automatic tuner. I only have this problem when it is >>>raining (antennas are partially hidden in trees and use 450 ohm open >>>feeder and 4:1 baluns in the shack) >>>73 de OZ4UN >>> > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email > list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email > list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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