K3: anticipated date for next "normal" FW update?

[DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL]

The last "regular" (working) FW release was back on June 10 (2+ months
ago now, in case you can't to simple math...chuckle, chuckle).

In the intervening time, there are three (3) Beta releases.

For those of us too timid. (conservative, or risk-averse to play with
a Beta version, any idea when the next "non-Beta" version will be
released?

About how much time (or amount of feedback) is required for the
Elecraft gurus to feel confident enough to lock down a version for
"regular" release?  Just curious.

I think having lots of Beta versions avaible to all is very cool and
exciting, but then there are us non-early adopters to remember too.

:-)

Thanks,
de Doug KR2Q
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[Bill W4ZV]

DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL wrote

I think having lots of Beta versions avaible to all is very cool and
exciting, but then there are us non-early adopters to remember too.

Speaking as a field tester, I feel there is little risk in using beta versions.  Anything publicly posted by Elecraft has already been through some level of testing by the field test team.  It's not like there hasn't been any testing at all, and you can always back up a version or two if there's a problem.  You're not going to permanently "break" anything in the rig by loading beta firmware.  I'm much more leery about loading SP3 (still!) for Windows XP than I am beta firmware for the K3.

That said, even I would probably not use a very recently released version in a contest.

73,  Bill

[Ed Muns, W0YK]

> DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL wrote:
> >
> > I think having lots of Beta versions avaible to all is very
> cool and
> > exciting, but then there are us non-early adopters to remember too.
> >

W4ZV wrote:

>
> Speaking as a field tester, I feel there is little risk in using beta
> versions.  Anything publicly posted by Elecraft has already been
> through some level of testing by the field test team.  It's not like
> there hasn't been any testing at all, and you can always back up a
> version or two if there's a problem.  You're not going to permanently
> "break" anything in the rig by loading beta firmware.  I'm much more
> leery about loading SP3
> (still!) for Windows XP than I am beta firmware for the K3.
>
> That said, even I would probably not use a very recently released
> version in a contest.

I agree with Bill, although I have to admit that I load the latest firmware
every time I'm in the radio room.  For over a year now, I've always used the
most recent firmware provided to Field Test for evaluation, even in
contests.  I've never had a major problem and I've actively used nearly
every version the engineers have churned out, including multiple versions of
the same version number!  If I were to have a problem, I'd simply load a
prior version which is trivial to do with the K3 Utility.  In one Thursday
night NCCC practice Sprint, I got several reports of an odd-sounding CW
signal and that immediately led to a firmware fix of a very subtle issue
that only happened on a few discreet frequencies.  So, given Elecraft's
responsiveness, I am very bullish about using the latest firmware and
helping move the K3 forward.

73,
Ed - W0YK

P.S.  I have the Windows XP SP3 CD, but am also reluctant to install it on
my computers.  My Microsoft experience is quite different than my K3
firmware experience.

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[Don Wilhelm-4]

Doug and all,

And I also agree with Ed and Bill.  I have been downloading the latest
test versions of the firmware that is available to the field testers
since January.  No problems have been encountered.

Even the 'beta' versions have been tested by the field testers, and we
all have agree that we have not found any problems before it is released
to 'beta'.  There may be subtle remaining issues that can arise with a
greater number of 'testers', but that is an exposure even with full
release firmware or software.  I encourage you to use the latest, even
if it is a beta version.  If you identify any problems, please report
them with as much detail of the conditions as possible - your problem
must be reproducible in order to be fixed.

I too have more fear about upgrading software than I do about the K3
firmware, but I am running WinXP SP3 here!

73,
Don W3FPR

Ed Muns wrote:

>> DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL wrote:
>>> I think having lots of Beta versions avaible to all is very
>> cool and
>>> exciting, but then there are us non-early adopters to remember too.
>>>
>
> W4ZV wrote:
>> Speaking as a field tester, I feel there is little risk in using beta
>> versions.  Anything publicly posted by Elecraft has already been
>> through some level of testing by the field test team.  It's not like
>> there hasn't been any testing at all, and you can always back up a
>> version or two if there's a problem.  You're not going to permanently
>> "break" anything in the rig by loading beta firmware.  I'm much more
>> leery about loading SP3
>> (still!) for Windows XP than I am beta firmware for the K3.
>>
>> That said, even I would probably not use a very recently released
>> version in a contest.
>
> I agree with Bill, although I have to admit that I load the latest firmware
> every time I'm in the radio room.  For over a year now, I've always used the
> most recent firmware provided to Field Test for evaluation, even in
> contests.  I've never had a major problem and I've actively used nearly
> every version the engineers have churned out, including multiple versions of
> the same version number!  If I were to have a problem, I'd simply load a
> prior version which is trivial to do with the K3 Utility.  In one Thursday
> night NCCC practice Sprint, I got several reports of an odd-sounding CW
> signal and that immediately led to a firmware fix of a very subtle issue
> that only happened on a few discreet frequencies.  So, given Elecraft's
> responsiveness, I am very bullish about using the latest firmware and
> helping move the K3 forward.
>

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[Mitch Wolfson DJØQN]

In that case, it would be better for them to rename these "pre-release" or
similar, instead of beta.

I worked for Microsoft for several years, and now have a complete aversion
to the term "beta", so I will never load something using that term for
production use. I assume I am not the only one with that problem ;-)

73,
Mitch DJ0QN

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Wilhelm" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 2:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: anticipated date for next "normal" FW update?

> Doug and all,
>
> And I also agree with Ed and Bill.  I have been downloading the latest
> test versions of the firmware that is available to the field testers since
> January.  No problems have been encountered.
>
> Even the 'beta' versions have been tested by the field testers, and we all
> have agree that we have not found any problems before it is released to
> 'beta'.  There may be subtle remaining issues that can arise with a
> greater number of 'testers', but that is an exposure even with full
> release firmware or software.  I encourage you to use the latest, even if
> it is a beta version.  If you identify any problems, please report them
> with as much detail of the conditions as possible - your problem must be
> reproducible in order to be fixed.
>
> I too have more fear about upgrading software than I do about the K3
> firmware, but I am running WinXP SP3 here!
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> Ed Muns wrote:
>>> DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL wrote:
>>>> I think having lots of Beta versions avaible to all is very
>>> cool and
>>>> exciting, but then there are us non-early adopters to remember too.
>>>>
>>
>> W4ZV wrote:
>>> Speaking as a field tester, I feel there is little risk in using beta
>>> versions.  Anything publicly posted by Elecraft has already been through
>>> some level of testing by the field test team.  It's not like there
>>> hasn't been any testing at all, and you can always back up a version or
>>> two if there's a problem.  You're not going to permanently "break"
>>> anything in the rig by loading beta firmware.  I'm much more leery about
>>> loading SP3
>>> (still!) for Windows XP than I am beta firmware for the K3.
>>>
>>> That said, even I would probably not use a very recently released
>>> version in a contest.
>>
>> I agree with Bill, although I have to admit that I load the latest
>> firmware
>> every time I'm in the radio room.  For over a year now, I've always used
>> the
>> most recent firmware provided to Field Test for evaluation, even in
>> contests.  I've never had a major problem and I've actively used nearly
>> every version the engineers have churned out, including multiple versions
>> of
>> the same version number!  If I were to have a problem, I'd simply load a
>> prior version which is trivial to do with the K3 Utility.  In one
>> Thursday
>> night NCCC practice Sprint, I got several reports of an odd-sounding CW
>> signal and that immediately led to a firmware fix of a very subtle issue
>> that only happened on a few discreet frequencies.  So, given Elecraft's
>> responsiveness, I am very bullish about using the latest firmware and
>> helping move the K3 forward.
>>
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>

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[M0XDF]

I never load anything from MS until it's been out for a while (no  
offence meant Mitch).

However, from Apple and Mac OSX, I'm quite happy to run software  
update every week (Apple don't release beta to the public at large).

With some software, MacLoggerDX for example, I've actually helped test  
beta and had no concerns, because I trust the vendor.

With the K3, I happily load the betas as they are available. One,  
because they are very stable, two because its easy to revert to any  
previous version, three because I trust Wayne and Lyle etc.

And hey, this is Ham Radio, not my employers business critical, client  
facing application.

Beta is just a convenient name, they could have used 'fred' or any  
other name. Yes they are really pre-release or pre-production, but  
unless we get into pre-release 1/2/3, Gold1, Gold2 etc. It's easier to  
just call them beta and production.
73 de M0XDF, K3 #174
--
What is the purpose of the giant sequoia tree? The purpose of the giant
sequoia tree is to provide shade for the tiny titmouse.
-Edward Abbey, naturalist and author (1927-1989)

On 15 Aug 2008, at 07:46, Mitch Wolfson DJØQN wrote:

> In that case, it would be better for them to rename these "pre-
> release" or similar, instead of beta.
>
> I worked for Microsoft for several years, and now have a complete  
> aversion to the term "beta", so I will never load something using  
> that term for production use. I assume I am not the only one with  
> that problem ;-)
>
> 73,
> Mitch DJ0QN

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[Guy, K2AV]

Something from my other existence,

Field Validator's Release or Early Adopter's Release.

One testing function is a methodical sweep for introduced bugs which includes "regression" testing for undoing of earlier fixes. The "other" major testing function is to operate all normal customer uses in the field with an eye out for problems and reporting such.  

The latter is termed field validation where I work, undertaken by customers who have some stake in early adoption and understand they may find stuff. The key to that kind of a developer/customer relationship is a speedy and serious turnaround on anything found. A customer may also be expecting "improvements" that are "not bugs" as part of this transaction.

Seems to me that Elecraft is nicely operating in the spirit of Early Adopter's Release as stated above.

73, Guy K2AV

<quote author="Mitch Wolfson DJØQN">
In that case, it would be better for them to rename these "pre-release" or
similar, instead of beta.

I worked for Microsoft for several years, and now have a complete aversion
to the term "beta", so I will never load something using that term for
production use. I assume I am not the only one with that problem ;-)

73,
Mitch DJ0QN

[David Woolley (E.L)]

Guy, K2AV wrote:

>
> The latter is termed field validation where I work, undertaken by customers
> who have some stake in early adoption and understand they may find stuff.
> The key to that kind of a developer/customer relationship is a speedy and
> serious turnaround on anything found. A customer may also be expecting
> "improvements" that are "not bugs" as part of this transaction.

That sounds like the true meaning of a beta test to me.  The problem is
that certain big vendors have redefined beta test to mean a marketing
ploy by which the release early, with no guarantee of reliability or
specification stability, in order to undermine the competition.

In their terminology, a true beta is often calle the "closed beta".

Elecraft are actually operating a beta somewhat in the Microsoft sense,
but maybe more from the point of view of getting feedback from a wider
audience, than as a marketing ploy.

With all betas, you should only become a beta tester if you are prepared
to provide detailed feedback on any failings.
>

--
David Woolley
"The Elecraft list is a forum for the discussion of topics related to
Elecraft products and more general topics related ham radio"
List Guidelines <http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm>
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[Peter N Spotts]

David Woolley (E.L) wrote:
> Guy, K2AV wrote:
>
>>snip<<
>
> With all betas, you should only become a beta tester if you are prepared
> to provide detailed feedback on any failings.
>>
>

Right, and at least for software, beta versions typically come with the
admonition: Don't use this on a production machine, a.k.a, the one you
rely on day in and day out. It *will* have bugs. Might be worth picking
up a second K3 to become a regular beta tester!  ;-)

With best regards,

Pete

--
Peter N. Spotts -- KC1JB
http://www.kc1jb.net (under construction)
Email: [hidden email]
QRP-ARCI # 4174 | North American QRP CW Club # 2446
Flying Pigs QRP Club Int'l # 1983
W5JH Black Widow paddle #601

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[Rob May-2]

The beta software that Elecraft releases could more accurately be called "release candidates".  It seems that they are tested quite a bit internally before they are released as a beta to owners.  There is a possibility of some bugs, but the major ones have been worked out.  I've seen some beta releases from other companies (including big, well known ones) that will release beta versions when they are still very buggy.  I never hesitate to load a K3 beta.
Rob
NV5E
#1417
 

> Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 07:27:50 -0400
> From: [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: anticipated date for next "normal" FW update?
>
> David Woolley (E.L) wrote:
>> Guy, K2AV wrote:
>>
>>>snip<<
>>
>> With all betas, you should only become a beta tester if you are prepared
>> to provide detailed feedback on any failings.
>>>
>>
>
> Right, and at least for software, beta versions typically come with the
> admonition: Don't use this on a production machine, a.k.a, the one you
> rely on day in and day out. It *will* have bugs. Might be worth picking
> up a second K3 to become a regular beta tester! ;-)
>
> With best regards,
>
> Pete
>
> --
> Peter N. Spotts -- KC1JB
> http://www.kc1jb.net (under construction)
> Email: [hidden email]
> QRP-ARCI # 4174 | North American QRP CW Club # 2446
> Flying Pigs QRP Club Int'l # 1983
> W5JH Black Widow paddle #601
>
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[David Woolley (E.L)]

Rob May wrote:
> The beta software that Elecraft releases could more accurately be
> called "release candidates". It seems that they are tested quite a bit

My impression is that "release candidate" is more an open source term,
where the distinctions blur, or one used of alpha test software.

> internally before they are released as a beta to owners. There is a

That's the definition of an alpha test.  However, I understand that they
do also run a true beta test, by using a small number of external users.


--
David Woolley
"The Elecraft list is a forum for the discussion of topics related to
Elecraft products and more general topics related ham radio"
List Guidelines <http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm>
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[Rob May-2]

David,
I think you are right.  I'm not a software person, I'm a hardware person in a
software company.  I'm never afraid to try a beta when it's put out here.  There
is nothing that can't be undone.  I've had my K3 less than a week, so I've barely
scratched the surface of what I can do with it.  
73,
Rob
NV5E

> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 11:24:37 +0100
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: anticipated date for next "normal" FW update?
>
> Rob May wrote:
>> The beta software that Elecraft releases could more accurately be
>> called "release candidates". It seems that they are tested quite a bit
>
> My impression is that "release candidate" is more an open source term,
> where the distinctions blur, or one used of alpha test software.
>
>> internally before they are released as a beta to owners. There is a
>
> That's the definition of an alpha test. However, I understand that they
> do also run a true beta test, by using a small number of external users.
>
>
> --
> David Woolley
> "The Elecraft list is a forum for the discussion of topics related to
> Elecraft products and more general topics related ham radio"
> List Guidelines
> _______________________________________________
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