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K3 command mode default k30 k31

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pa4la

K3 command mode default k30 k31

I am playing with my Microham MK2 and have learned that,

the K3 must be in extended (k31) command mode for the MK2 to switch correct
between audio or fsk data modes

When the K3 is powered on, the mode setting is always standard k30.

Putting the k31 command via a terminal is not a big issue but it would save
a couple of mouse clicks :)

Is there a way tot save the k31 setting or a way to make k31 the default
setting?

Tnx in advance,

Hugo pa4la

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 command mode default k30 k31

Hugo,

That sounds like a programing deficiency in the Microham MK2. The fact
that the K3 defaults to K30 on power on is documented in the
Programmer's Reference as default.
If a device needs to use an extended mode command, it should query the
state - the K3 command can be used as a GET or a SET, so the programmer
can determine the state before issuing the command.

73,
Don W3FPR

Hugo pa4la wrote:

> I am playing with my Microham MK2 and have learned that,
>
> the K3 must be in extended (k31) command mode for the MK2 to switch correct
> between audio or fsk data modes
>
>
>
> When the K3 is powered on, the mode setting is always standard k30.
>
> Putting the k31 command via a terminal is not a big issue but it would save
> a couple of mouse clicks :)
>
>
>
> Is there a way tot save the k31 setting or a way to make k31 the default
> setting?
>
>
>
> Tnx in advance,
>
>
>
> Hugo pa4la
>
>

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 command mode default k30 k31

Don,

> That sounds like a programing deficiency in the Microham MK2.
> The fact that the K3 defaults to K30 on power on is documented
> in the Programmer's Reference as default.

That's uncalled for.

The K3 "RTTY" mode is ambiguous in its default configuration.
There is no way for software to distinguish among the four
data sub-modes with the default "K30" response set.

The hallmark of good software is that IT NEVER CHANGES THE STATE
OF THE RADIO UNEXPECTEDLY. This is particularly true for microHAM
Router since it has to interoperate with a multitude of logging
and data programs - some of which require K30 mode and some of
which use the K31 configuration.

The appropriate "fix" would be for the "data sub mode" report
to be present in the IF (autoinformation) report at all times
- but that's not the way the K3 currently operates - or for
the K3 to add two "new" modes to indicate audio based data
submodes (AFSK_A or DATA_A) like Yaesu did in their Kenwood
like protocol for the FT-9000/2000/950/450.

The lack of information on AFSK/PSK vs. FSK simply means that
this one feature of the microHAM interfaces (DigiKeyer,
microKEYER, microKEYER II) is not supported with the K3
because the K3 fails to provide the necessary data.

Except for the K2 and K3 (and Flex-Radio), the RTTY mode in
every other transceiver manufactured in the last 20 years (and
all Kenwood transceivers except the TS-440) is always FSK.
With the K2 "RTTY" is AFSK and with the K3 "RTTY" is ambiguous.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
> Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 7:48 PM
> To: Hugo pa4la
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 command mode default k30 k31
>
>
> Hugo,
>
> That sounds like a programing deficiency in the Microham MK2.
> The fact
> that the K3 defaults to K30 on power on is documented in the
> Programmer's Reference as default.
> If a device needs to use an extended mode command, it should
> query the
> state - the K3 command can be used as a GET or a SET, so the
> programmer
> can determine the state before issuing the command.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> Hugo pa4la wrote:
> > I am playing with my Microham MK2 and have learned that,
> >
> > the K3 must be in extended (k31) command mode for the MK2
> to switch
> > correct between audio or fsk data modes
> >
> >
> >
> > When the K3 is powered on, the mode setting is always standard k30.
> >
> > Putting the k31 command via a terminal is not a big issue
> but it would
> > save a couple of mouse clicks :)
> >
> >
> >
> > Is there a way tot save the k31 setting or a way to make k31 the
> > default setting?
> >
> >
> >
> > Tnx in advance,
> >
> >
> >
> > Hugo pa4la
> >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 command mode default k30 k31

Joe,

I beg to differ. The K3 does provide the information on the command
state via the 'K2n;' command and the 'K3n;' command. The K30 state is
clearly documented as the default.

I repeat, any software that needs to issue K31 commands must assure that
the K3 is capable of accepting those commands.

This is a task for the programmer who says they support the K3 command
set.

IT IS NOT A MATTER OF NOT CHANGING THE STATE OF THE RADIO - the
situation is that the software is trying to issue a command that
requires the K31 state. The command cannot be received if the radio is
not in the K31 state - so either the software must use an alternative
method or it must set the K31 state. If the software must restore the
radio to the K30 state afterwards (to be "good programming") than by all
means, issue the K30 command at the end of the process.

That fact that other radios 'do it differently' is not a reason for
software which supposedly supports the K3 command set to make
assumptions about the state of the K3.

I do come from a long background that says any software that makes
assumptions (without checking) is faulty programming.

73,
Don W3FPR

Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

> Don,
>
>
>> That sounds like a programing deficiency in the Microham MK2.
>> The fact that the K3 defaults to K30 on power on is documented
>> in the Programmer's Reference as default.
>>
>
> That's uncalled for.
>
> The K3 "RTTY" mode is ambiguous in its default configuration.
> There is no way for software to distinguish among the four
> data sub-modes with the default "K30" response set.
>
> The hallmark of good software is that IT NEVER CHANGES THE STATE
> OF THE RADIO UNEXPECTEDLY. This is particularly true for microHAM
> Router since it has to interoperate with a multitude of logging
> and data programs - some of which require K30 mode and some of
> which use the K31 configuration.
>
> The appropriate "fix" would be for the "data sub mode" report
> to be present in the IF (autoinformation) report at all times
> - but that's not the way the K3 currently operates - or for
> the K3 to add two "new" modes to indicate audio based data
> submodes (AFSK_A or DATA_A) like Yaesu did in their Kenwood
> like protocol for the FT-9000/2000/950/450.
>
> The lack of information on AFSK/PSK vs. FSK simply means that
> this one feature of the microHAM interfaces (DigiKeyer,
> microKEYER, microKEYER II) is not supported with the K3
> because the K3 fails to provide the necessary data.
>
> Except for the K2 and K3 (and Flex-Radio), the RTTY mode in
> every other transceiver manufactured in the last 20 years (and
> all Kenwood transceivers except the TS-440) is always FSK.
> With the K2 "RTTY" is AFSK and with the K3 "RTTY" is ambiguous.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
>> Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 7:48 PM
>> To: Hugo pa4la
>> Cc: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 command mode default k30 k31
>>
>>
>> Hugo,
>>
>> That sounds like a programing deficiency in the Microham MK2.
>> The fact
>> that the K3 defaults to K30 on power on is documented in the
>> Programmer's Reference as default.
>> If a device needs to use an extended mode command, it should
>> query the
>> state - the K3 command can be used as a GET or a SET, so the
>> programmer
>> can determine the state before issuing the command.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> Hugo pa4la wrote:
>>
>>> I am playing with my Microham MK2 and have learned that,
>>>
>>> the K3 must be in extended (k31) command mode for the MK2
>>>
>> to switch
>>
>>> correct between audio or fsk data modes
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> When the K3 is powered on, the mode setting is always standard k30.
>>>
>>> Putting the k31 command via a terminal is not a big issue
>>>
>> but it would
>>
>>> save a couple of mouse clicks :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is there a way tot save the k31 setting or a way to make k31 the
>>> default setting?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tnx in advance,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hugo pa4la
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.14.1/2407 - Release Date: 10/01/09 06:34:00
>
>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 command mode default k30 k31

> I beg to differ. The K3 does provide the information on the
> command state via the 'K2n;' command and the 'K3n;' command.

Bull. The K3 does not provide the information in response to
the K3n; command. The K3 changes its CAT response - specifically
changes the information reported in the IF (auto information)
data and its response to several other commands based on the
status of K3n;

> I repeat, any software that needs to issue K31 commands must
> assure that the K3 is capable of accepting those commands.

Router can not arbitrarily place the K3 into K31; mode since
it must operate with software that relies on the K30; and
certain K2x; behaviors - Ham Radio Deluxe among others. Since
Router already relies on the data in the autoinformation packet
to determine operating frequency (band) and mode if another
application is controlling the K3 it does not poll independently
for Mode (MD;) and data sub-mode (DT;).

> IT IS NOT A MATTER OF NOT CHANGING THE STATE OF THE RADIO - the
> situation is that the software is trying to issue a command that
> requires the K31 state.

No, the K3# commands alter the state of the K3 command set and
CHANGE THE STATE OF THE RADIO. They specifically change the way
the K3 interprets certain commands (DS; FW;) and changes the
behavior of the "b" and "d" bytes in the auto-information report.
Full details are in the Programmers Reference Manual.

> That fact that other radios 'do it differently' is not a reason
> for software which supposedly supports the K3 command set to make
> assumptions about the state of the K3.

Router does not "make assumptions about the state of the radio."
It understands fully if the "d" byte in the autoinformation report
is "0" the data submode must either be Data_A or the radio is in
K30; mode. Since the K3 does not indicate which is the case, Router
treats DATA mode as AFSK/PSK (which is what is being reported) and
will not generate FSK from the keyboard or memory since that is
inappropriate in the DATA_A submode.

To say that Router is at fault because it does not arbitrarily
change the K3 CAT mode is hubris. The fact is that the K3
reports "DATA A" in the autoinformation packet unless the
K31; extensions are enabled. That is simply a "fact of life"
just as the fact that Kenwood transceivers and Icom transceivers
prior to the "Pro" series have no way to identify AFSK operation
is a "fact of life."

> I do come from a long background that says any software that
> makes assumptions (without checking) is faulty programming.

And I come from a long background that says any control system
that does not provide accurate information is a defective
control system. However, I don't go around saying the Elecraft
implementation of the Kenwood command set is defective even though
it clearly indicates that the default data mode is DATA A.

In this case, the command set simply does not provide the
information necessary for Router to enable its internal
FSK keyboard support. That support is also not enabled
for the K2 in which "RTTY" = AFSK. In the case of the K2,
Router had to be specifically coded to handle the "RTTY"
mode differently than any other supported transceiver.

You simply have no right to declare another company's software
(product) "defective" and I resent it.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Don Wilhelm [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 10:15 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]; 'Hugo pa4la'; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 command mode default k30 k31
>
>
> Joe,
>
> I beg to differ. The K3 does provide the information on the command
> state via the 'K2n;' command and the 'K3n;' command. The K30
> state is
> clearly documented as the default.
>
> I repeat, any software that needs to issue K31 commands must
> assure that
> the K3 is capable of accepting those commands.
>
> This is a task for the programmer who says they support the
> K3 command
> set.
>
> IT IS NOT A MATTER OF NOT CHANGING THE STATE OF THE RADIO - the
> situation is that the software is trying to issue a command that
> requires the K31 state. The command cannot be received if
> the radio is
> not in the K31 state - so either the software must use an alternative
> method or it must set the K31 state. If the software must
> restore the
> radio to the K30 state afterwards (to be "good programming")
> than by all
> means, issue the K30 command at the end of the process.
>
> That fact that other radios 'do it differently' is not a reason for
> software which supposedly supports the K3 command set to make
> assumptions about the state of the K3.
>
> I do come from a long background that says any software that makes
> assumptions (without checking) is faulty programming.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> > Don,
> >
> >
> >> That sounds like a programing deficiency in the Microham MK2. The
> >> fact that the K3 defaults to K30 on power on is documented in the
> >> Programmer's Reference as default.
> >>
> >
> > That's uncalled for.
> >
> > The K3 "RTTY" mode is ambiguous in its default configuration. There
> > is no way for software to distinguish among the four
> > data sub-modes with the default "K30" response set.
> >
> > The hallmark of good software is that IT NEVER CHANGES THE STATE OF
> > THE RADIO UNEXPECTEDLY. This is particularly true for microHAM
> > Router since it has to interoperate with a multitude of logging and
> > data programs - some of which require K30 mode and some of which use
> > the K31 configuration.
> >
> > The appropriate "fix" would be for the "data sub mode" report to be
> > present in the IF (autoinformation) report at all times
> > - but that's not the way the K3 currently operates - or for
> > the K3 to add two "new" modes to indicate audio based data
> > submodes (AFSK_A or DATA_A) like Yaesu did in their Kenwood
> > like protocol for the FT-9000/2000/950/450.
> >
> > The lack of information on AFSK/PSK vs. FSK simply means that this
> > one feature of the microHAM interfaces (DigiKeyer, microKEYER,
> > microKEYER II) is not supported with the K3 because the K3 fails to
> > provide the necessary data.
> >
> > Except for the K2 and K3 (and Flex-Radio), the RTTY mode in every
> > other transceiver manufactured in the last 20 years (and all Kenwood
> > transceivers except the TS-440) is always FSK.
> > With the K2 "RTTY" is AFSK and with the K3 "RTTY" is ambiguous.
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > ... Joe, W4TV
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [hidden email]
> >> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
> >> Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 7:48 PM
> >> To: Hugo pa4la
> >> Cc: [hidden email]
> >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 command mode default k30 k31
> >>
> >>
> >> Hugo,
> >>
> >> That sounds like a programing deficiency in the Microham MK2. The
> >> fact that the K3 defaults to K30 on power on is documented in the
> >> Programmer's Reference as default.
> >> If a device needs to use an extended mode command, it should
> >> query the
> >> state - the K3 command can be used as a GET or a SET, so the
> >> programmer
> >> can determine the state before issuing the command.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >> Don W3FPR
> >>
> >> Hugo pa4la wrote:
> >>
> >>> I am playing with my Microham MK2 and have learned that,
> >>>
> >>> the K3 must be in extended (k31) command mode for the MK2
> >>>
> >> to switch
> >>
> >>> correct between audio or fsk data modes
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> When the K3 is powered on, the mode setting is always
> standard k30.
> >>>
> >>> Putting the k31 command via a terminal is not a big issue
> >>>
> >> but it would
> >>
> >>> save a couple of mouse clicks :)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Is there a way tot save the k31 setting or a way to make k31 the
> >>> default setting?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Tnx in advance,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Hugo pa4la
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >>
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.14.1/2407 - Release
> Date: 10/01/09 06:34:00
> >
> >

wayne burdick

Re: K3 command mode default k30 k31

Administrator

I plan to eliminate the need for these meta-commands in a future
release. Commands that are modal, such as FW, will be replaced with
non-modal commands.

73,
Wayne
N6KR
______________________________________________________________
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gm3sek

Re: K3 command mode default k30 k31

Wayne Burdick wrote:
>I plan to eliminate the need for these meta-commands in a future
>release. Commands that are modal, such as FW, will be replaced with
>non-modal commands.
>

Do those plans include unambiguous reporting of SPLIT status, and
commands to control audio routeing for SO2R/SO2V purposes?

--

73 from Ian GM3SEK
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek
______________________________________________________________
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Julian, G4ILO

Re: K3 command mode default k30 k31

In reply to this post by pa4la

Hugo pa4la wrote

I am playing with my Microham MK2 and have learned that,

the K3 must be in extended (k31) command mode for the MK2 to switch correct
between audio or fsk data modes

When the K3 is powered on, the mode setting is always standard k30.

Putting the k31 command via a terminal is not a big issue but it would save
a couple of mouse clicks :)

Is there a way tot save the k31 setting or a way to make k31 the default
setting?

Could this not be done with a simple command file, something like "echo k31; >com1" ?

Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222 KX3 #110
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
* KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
* KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 command mode default k30 k31

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Joe,

I thought we were talking about a Microham Router command that does not
work at times until the user issues a terminal K31 command manually.
Yes, the user power cycled the K3, but I believe proper software should
recover from that event with no input from the user - that usually comes
under the category of 'error recovery'.

For commands that require K31 mode to work as expected, the software
*must* "change the state (mode) of the radio" or assure that the K3 is
already in that state. I believe it is the responsibility of the
software to assure that the K31 mode is set on rather than depending on
(assuming) any state of the radio. That can easily be circumvented by
using a bracketed command string. See the excerpt from the K3
Programmer's Reference below.

"Meta commands can be sent as often as you wish. You can even use them
to bracket one or more selected
commands if you don't want to permanently change the mode. For example:
K31; FW; K30; selects command
mode K31 just for the benefit of the FW command, then returns to mode
K30. (This allows the FW command to
set/read the bandwidth in 10-Hz units.)"

If the K3 does not behave as indicated in the Programmer's Reference,
that is the fault of the K3, but if software is failing to work as
expected because of a particular state of the radio, then I think that
fault lies with the software.

This case may be a moot point in the future, because I see Wayne has
just stated that he will make changes to not require these modal
commands. I trust that can be accomplished without creating problems
for the many bits of software already out there, but that remains to be
seen.

This is my last post on this subject. It is obvious to me that my view
of what constitutes proper software is different than that of at least
one programmer.

73,
Don W3FPR

Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>> I beg to differ. The K3 does provide the information on the
>> command state via the 'K2n;' command and the 'K3n;' command.
>>
>
> Bull. The K3 does not provide the information in response to
> the K3n; command. The K3 changes its CAT response - specifically
> changes the information reported in the IF (auto information)
> data and its response to several other commands based on the
> status of K3n;
>
>
>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 command mode default k30 k31

Don,

> I thought we were talking about a Microham Router command
> that does not work at times until the user issues a terminal
> K31 command manually.

No, we are not talking about ANY Router command. microHAM
interfaces (DigiKeyer, microKEYER, microKEYER II and MK2R/MK2R+)
can generate FSK from a PS/2 keyboard attached to the interface
IF the transceiver is in RTTY (FSK) mode. Unfortunately, the
K3 reports its "Digital" mode as DATA A (AFSK) unless the K3
response set is used.

As I've stated several times, Router does not change the CAT
mode (form of the IF response) because it might "break" any
software that requires specific responses to the DS and FW
command.

This is not a matter of Router's programming ... it is a
case where 1) the K3 does not report the information needed
and 2) once the user has changed the mode of the K3, that
change does not survive a reboot.

The most logical solution would be to make "K31" persist
across reboots and/or make the "d" byte active in the auto-
information (IF) reports.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
> Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 7:56 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 command mode default k30 k31
>
>
> Joe,
>
> I thought we were talking about a Microham Router command
> that does not
> work at times until the user issues a terminal K31 command manually.
> Yes, the user power cycled the K3, but I believe proper
> software should
> recover from that event with no input from the user - that
> usually comes
> under the category of 'error recovery'.
>
> For commands that require K31 mode to work as expected, the software
> *must* "change the state (mode) of the radio" or assure that
> the K3 is
> already in that state. I believe it is the responsibility of the
> software to assure that the K31 mode is set on rather than
> depending on
> (assuming) any state of the radio. That can easily be
> circumvented by
> using a bracketed command string. See the excerpt from the K3
> Programmer's Reference below.
>
> "Meta commands can be sent as often as you wish. You can even
> use them
> to bracket one or more selected
> commands if you don't want to permanently change the mode.
> For example:
> K31; FW; K30; selects command
> mode K31 just for the benefit of the FW command, then returns to mode
> K30. (This allows the FW command to
> set/read the bandwidth in 10-Hz units.)"
>
> If the K3 does not behave as indicated in the Programmer's Reference,
> that is the fault of the K3, but if software is failing to work as
> expected because of a particular state of the radio, then I
> think that
> fault lies with the software.
>
> This case may be a moot point in the future, because I see Wayne has
> just stated that he will make changes to not require these modal
> commands. I trust that can be accomplished without creating problems
> for the many bits of software already out there, but that
> remains to be
> seen.
>
> This is my last post on this subject. It is obvious to me
> that my view
> of what constitutes proper software is different than that of
> at least
> one programmer.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> >> I beg to differ. The K3 does provide the information on
> the command
> >> state via the 'K2n;' command and the 'K3n;' command.
> >>
> >
> > Bull. The K3 does not provide the information in response to
> > the K3n; command. The K3 changes its CAT response - specifically
> > changes the information reported in the IF (auto information)
> > data and its response to several other commands based on the
> > status of K3n;
> >
> >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Matt Zilmer

Re: K3 command mode default k30 k31

Humble opinion time...

Having K31 persist across reboots might be a Bad Idea too. It's a
mode dependency, meaning more than one state might be possible at
start-up time. This may cause some PC programs to go into brainlock
if K31 responses are not what's expected. Plain K3; is what most of
them expect (I think...).

Imho, Wayne has this right. There should only be a single start-up
state.

73,
matt zilmer
K3 #24

On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 11:19:15 -0400, you wrote:

>
>Don,
>
>> I thought we were talking about a Microham Router command
>> that does not work at times until the user issues a terminal
>> K31 command manually.
>
>No, we are not talking about ANY Router command. microHAM
>interfaces (DigiKeyer, microKEYER, microKEYER II and MK2R/MK2R+)
>can generate FSK from a PS/2 keyboard attached to the interface
>IF the transceiver is in RTTY (FSK) mode. Unfortunately, the
>K3 reports its "Digital" mode as DATA A (AFSK) unless the K3
>response set is used.
>
>As I've stated several times, Router does not change the CAT
>mode (form of the IF response) because it might "break" any
>software that requires specific responses to the DS and FW
>command.
>
>This is not a matter of Router's programming ... it is a
>case where 1) the K3 does not report the information needed
>and 2) once the user has changed the mode of the K3, that
>change does not survive a reboot.
>
>The most logical solution would be to make "K31" persist
>across reboots and/or make the "d" byte active in the auto-
>information (IF) reports.
>
>73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
>> Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 7:56 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 command mode default k30 k31
>>
>>
>> Joe,
>>
>> I thought we were talking about a Microham Router command
>> that does not
>> work at times until the user issues a terminal K31 command manually.
>> Yes, the user power cycled the K3, but I believe proper
>> software should
>> recover from that event with no input from the user - that
>> usually comes
>> under the category of 'error recovery'.
>>
>> For commands that require K31 mode to work as expected, the software
>> *must* "change the state (mode) of the radio" or assure that
>> the K3 is
>> already in that state. I believe it is the responsibility of the
>> software to assure that the K31 mode is set on rather than
>> depending on
>> (assuming) any state of the radio. That can easily be
>> circumvented by
>> using a bracketed command string. See the excerpt from the K3
>> Programmer's Reference below.
>>
>> "Meta commands can be sent as often as you wish. You can even
>> use them
>> to bracket one or more selected
>> commands if you don't want to permanently change the mode.
>> For example:
>> K31; FW; K30; selects command
>> mode K31 just for the benefit of the FW command, then returns to mode
>> K30. (This allows the FW command to
>> set/read the bandwidth in 10-Hz units.)"
>>
>> If the K3 does not behave as indicated in the Programmer's Reference,
>> that is the fault of the K3, but if software is failing to work as
>> expected because of a particular state of the radio, then I
>> think that
>> fault lies with the software.
>>
>> This case may be a moot point in the future, because I see Wayne has
>> just stated that he will make changes to not require these modal
>> commands. I trust that can be accomplished without creating problems
>> for the many bits of software already out there, but that
>> remains to be
>> seen.
>>
>> This is my last post on this subject. It is obvious to me
>> that my view
>> of what constitutes proper software is different than that of
>> at least
>> one programmer.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>> >> I beg to differ. The K3 does provide the information on
>> the command
>> >> state via the 'K2n;' command and the 'K3n;' command.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Bull. The K3 does not provide the information in response to
>> > the K3n; command. The K3 changes its CAT response - specifically
>> > changes the information reported in the IF (auto information)
>> > data and its response to several other commands based on the
>> > status of K3n;
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 command mode default k30 k31

> This may cause some PC programs to go into brainlock
> if K31 responses are not what's expected.

I doubt that any program would go into brainlock if the
K3 extended responses were enabled. The changes are small
(DS; FW; and IF;) and except for FW: simply represent
additional data if the extended responses are enabled.

The additional data in the IF response should not matter
to software that does not make use of it.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matt Zilmer [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 11:24 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 command mode default k30 k31
>
>
> Humble opinion time...
>
> Having K31 persist across reboots might be a Bad Idea too.
> It's a mode dependency, meaning more than one state might be
> possible at start-up time. This may cause some PC programs
> to go into brainlock if K31 responses are not what's
> expected. Plain K3; is what most of them expect (I think...).
>
> Imho, Wayne has this right. There should only be a single
> start-up state.
>
> 73,
> matt zilmer
> K3 #24
>
> On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 11:19:15 -0400, you wrote:
>
> >
> >Don,
> >
> >> I thought we were talking about a Microham Router command
> >> that does not work at times until the user issues a terminal
> >> K31 command manually.
> >
> >No, we are not talking about ANY Router command. microHAM
> >interfaces (DigiKeyer, microKEYER, microKEYER II and MK2R/MK2R+)
> >can generate FSK from a PS/2 keyboard attached to the interface
> >IF the transceiver is in RTTY (FSK) mode. Unfortunately, the
> >K3 reports its "Digital" mode as DATA A (AFSK) unless the K3
> >response set is used.
> >
> >As I've stated several times, Router does not change the CAT
> >mode (form of the IF response) because it might "break" any
> >software that requires specific responses to the DS and FW
> >command.
> >
> >This is not a matter of Router's programming ... it is a
> >case where 1) the K3 does not report the information needed
> >and 2) once the user has changed the mode of the K3, that
> >change does not survive a reboot.
> >
> >The most logical solution would be to make "K31" persist
> >across reboots and/or make the "d" byte active in the auto-
> >information (IF) reports.
> >
> >73,
> >
> > ... Joe, W4TV
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [hidden email]
> >> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
> >> Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 7:56 AM
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 command mode default k30 k31
> >>
> >>
> >> Joe,
> >>
> >> I thought we were talking about a Microham Router command
> >> that does not
> >> work at times until the user issues a terminal K31 command
> manually.
> >> Yes, the user power cycled the K3, but I believe proper
> >> software should
> >> recover from that event with no input from the user - that
> >> usually comes
> >> under the category of 'error recovery'.
> >>
> >> For commands that require K31 mode to work as expected,
> the software
> >> *must* "change the state (mode) of the radio" or assure that
> >> the K3 is
> >> already in that state. I believe it is the responsibility of the
> >> software to assure that the K31 mode is set on rather than
> >> depending on
> >> (assuming) any state of the radio. That can easily be
> >> circumvented by
> >> using a bracketed command string. See the excerpt from the K3
> >> Programmer's Reference below.
> >>
> >> "Meta commands can be sent as often as you wish. You can even
> >> use them
> >> to bracket one or more selected
> >> commands if you don't want to permanently change the mode.
> >> For example:
> >> K31; FW; K30; selects command
> >> mode K31 just for the benefit of the FW command, then
> returns to mode
> >> K30. (This allows the FW command to
> >> set/read the bandwidth in 10-Hz units.)"
> >>
> >> If the K3 does not behave as indicated in the Programmer's
> Reference,
> >> that is the fault of the K3, but if software is failing to work as
> >> expected because of a particular state of the radio, then I
> >> think that
> >> fault lies with the software.
> >>
> >> This case may be a moot point in the future, because I see
> Wayne has
> >> just stated that he will make changes to not require these modal
> >> commands. I trust that can be accomplished without
> creating problems
> >> for the many bits of software already out there, but that
> >> remains to be
> >> seen.
> >>
> >> This is my last post on this subject. It is obvious to me
> >> that my view
> >> of what constitutes proper software is different than that of
> >> at least
> >> one programmer.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >> Don W3FPR
> >>
> >> Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> >> >> I beg to differ. The K3 does provide the information on
> >> the command
> >> >> state via the 'K2n;' command and the 'K3n;' command.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Bull. The K3 does not provide the information in
> response to the
> >> > K3n; command. The K3 changes its CAT response - specifically
> >> > changes the information reported in the IF (auto
> information) data
> >> > and its response to several other commands based on the
> status of
> >> > K3n;
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
> >______________________________________________________________
> >Elecraft mailing list
> >Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> >This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Laurent F6DEX

Re: K3 command mode default k30 k31

In reply to this post by Matt Zilmer

Hello,

1) Data sub mode is reported (see DT command GET/SET). It is always possible to know the mode in use with the K3 exactly. The MD command is compatible with Kenwood protocol. Adding sub mode to IF string is not a good solution since it breaks the compatibility. DT must be used.

2) About K31... It is a non-issue. A software can easily send K3 at startup but has also to repeat this command in case of the K3 is powered Off. It is different with an external controller (it does not work like a software) ; In the case of the Microham, it must be programmed for adding K31 in front of any command. The lenght of the command is increased by only 4 Bytes. You should suggest this tip to the developper.

73,

Laurent F6DEX

Laurent F6DEX

wayne burdick

Re: K3 command mode default k30 k31

Administrator

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

I think we've beaten this one to death.

My goal is to completely eliminate the need for the K2x and K3x meta
commands. No more modality, no more issues. Thanks in advance for your
patience.

Wayne
N6KR

______________________________________________________________
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Stewart Baker

Re: K3 command mode default k30 k31

Wayne,
Will your command changes incorporate the ability to read and
write to the K3 memories ?

73
Stewart G3RXQ
On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 09:15:35 -0700, Wayne Burdick wrote:
> I think we've beaten this one to death.
>
> My goal is to completely eliminate the need for the K2x and K3x
meta
> commands. No more modality, no more issues. Thanks in advance
for your

> patience.
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list:

http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Laurent F6DEX

Re: K3 command mode default k30 k31

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

HI Wayne

I think this is possible without big changes !..

Good luck, Laurent F6DEX

<quote author="wayne burdick">
I think we've beaten this one to death.

My goal is to completely eliminate the need for the K2x and K3x meta
commands. No more modality, no more issues. Thanks in advance for your
patience.

Wayne
N6KR

Laurent F6DEX

wayne burdick

Re: K3 command mode default k30 k31

Administrator

In reply to this post by Stewart Baker

That's on the list.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Oct 2, 2009, at 9:27 AM, Stewart wrote:

> Wayne,
> Will your command changes incorporate the ability to read and
> write to the K3 memories ?
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Laurent F6DEX

Re: K3 command mode default k30 k31

HI Wayne

The day you work on the protocol, contact me again... "my" own list (sent to you) could be updated !.

Nothing critical however... Except may be the problems that may result from the CONFIG:VFO OFS=ON and interaction with the Band stacking memory.

Anyway K3's protocol is reliable and it is faster than most of the brands.

73, Laurent

<quote author="wayne burdick">
That's on the list.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

Laurent F6DEX

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 command mode default k30 k31

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

I said I was not going to post any more on this subject, but I tried the
K3 command because W4TV reported that it does not send a response when
queried, but changes its CAT response.

I find that the K3 does indeed report the mode as indicated in the K3
Programmer's Reference. Here is my verification procedure.

Using the K3 Utility, I typed in "k3;" (the GET command)
The K3 responded with "K30;"
I typed "k31;" (the SET command)
No response from the K3 - this is a set command, so no response was
expected.
I typed "K3;"
The K3 responded with "K31;" - this verifies that the K3 is in the K31 mode.
I typed "k30;" - to set things back the way they were
Again typed "k3;" to verify that the command had been properly received
The K3 responded with "K30" as expected.

Again, when Wayne makes changes to not require the mode changes, this
will be moot, but for now, it is the way it is.

73,
Don W3FPR

Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> Bull. The K3 does not provide the information in response to
> the K3n; command. The K3 changes its CAT response - specifically
> changes the information reported in the IF (auto information)
> data and its response to several other commands based on the
> status of K3n;
>
>
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 command mode default k30 k31

> I said I was not going to post any more on this subject, but
> I tried the K3 command because W4TV reported that it does not
> send a response when queried, but changes its CAT response.

Will you get it through your head that this is not an issue
of the behavior of the K3x; command? This is simply and issue
that the K3 does not report the data sub-mode with the auto-
information (IF;) UNLESS the K31; extended responses are enabled.

The design imperative of microHAM Router is to be TRANSPARENT to
user applications (Loggers, data software, control software, etc.).
To that end it DOES NOT CHANGE the status of either K2x; or K3x;
and does not care what the application does with the meta commands.
However, it is difficult on the user when he sets a specific
mode only to have it wiped out across a reboot - this is much
like losing all of the memories every time one updates firmware
or recycles power.

In any case, perhaps Wayne will simply add the "d" byte to the
auto information (IF;) data full-time - or at least when the
primary mode is 6 (Data) or 9 (Data-Rev). Since the K31; meta
state does not change the length of the IF; response, the presence
of the correct sub-mode in the 'd' byte should not break any other
software that is dependent on a specific meta state.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
> Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 2:08 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 command mode default k30 k31
>
>
> I said I was not going to post any more on this subject, but
> I tried the
> K3 command because W4TV reported that it does not send a
> response when
> queried, but changes its CAT response.
>
> I find that the K3 does indeed report the mode as indicated in the K3
> Programmer's Reference. Here is my verification procedure.
>
> Using the K3 Utility, I typed in "k3;" (the GET command)
> The K3 responded with "K30;"
> I typed "k31;" (the SET command)
> No response from the K3 - this is a set command, so no response was
> expected.
> I typed "K3;"
> The K3 responded with "K31;" - this verifies that the K3 is
> in the K31 mode. I typed "k30;" - to set things back the way
> they were Again typed "k3;" to verify that the command had
> been properly received The K3 responded with "K30" as expected.
>
> Again, when Wayne makes changes to not require the mode changes, this
> will be moot, but for now, it is the way it is.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>
> Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> > Bull. The K3 does not provide the information in response to
> > the K3n; command. The K3 changes its CAT response - specifically
> > changes the information reported in the IF (auto information)
> > data and its response to several other commands based on the
> > status of K3n;
> >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html