K3 display for contesters
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Hi Dick and other contesters who might be potential buyers but who are
now concerned by Dick's post: You said, "but there are many parameters that need to be available at-a-glance: both VFO frequencies, bandwidth, shift/PBT, RIT/XIT power, vox, AGC, RF Gain, preamp, notch, NB, receive antenna status, power, etc. " Well, I think that I'm a pretty serious contester and completely disagree (except for the QRG of both VFO's). I am able to hear the different characteristics you mention. Narrow BW sounds a lot different than wide. I'll adjust it (not that I do that much) based on what sounds right; not by looking at a display or "the numbers." Who cares what those are...it has to sound right. Same with shift/pbt. As for RIT/XIT, for me, the only thing that matters is if it is ON or OFF. If I twiddle either, it will be for a specific QSO. And as soon as I'm done with that Q, I zero it by tapping the clear button. If I feel that I need to twiddle it again for another Q, well then the offset does automatically show up (as I understand it...I don't have my K3's yet). Power? Why do you want to monitor that. Isn't it "set it and forget it?" Vox? Are you turning vox on and off during a contest? Why? Basically, I just do not see why these are important to you unless it's just a matter of that is what you are used to now. You also said, "I can't afford to spend time twiddling knobs to determine the current state of the transceiver." I agree! In fact, I would say that during a contest, you can't afford to be twiddling knobs period. If you are adjusting AGC, Shift, Bandwidth RF gain, Preamp, Notch, etc during a contest, sounds like DXing more than contesting to me. Time spent twiddling knobs is time not making Q's. I won't dispute that these may be (seem?) "important" to you now, but I know tons of contesters who simply "do it by ear" and usually don't twiddle knobs at all. Like K3ZO, on cw I like to select one BW (usually fairly wide) and that's how I operate the entire contest. If I have to narrow it for one situation, I immediately "put it back" as soon as that Q is done. So that's MY style of contesting. The purpose of this post is simply to present another POV (mine). de Doug KR2Q _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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FWIW I am 99.9% sure that all these values will be available via the CAT
interface sooner or later. Simon Brown, HB9DRV ----- Original Message ----- From: "DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL" <[hidden email]> > Hi Dick and other contesters who might be potential buyers but who are > now concerned by Dick's post: [chop] _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL
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Hash: SHA1 Ditto that Doug, When I'm contesting with my K2 the only knob that gets "twiddled" is the VFO with an occasional push of XFIL. I can't imagine a big gun station holding sway on 20 meters moving anything on the rig. They sure don't have to S+P like we little pistols do. I've also noticed a disturbing trend on the reflector. That being most of the negative posts, what few there have been, and none from actual owners or buyers of the K3, have come from people well known on the Ten-Tec list and are Orion owners/users. Kinda makes you go "Hummmm". Maybe the boys in Sevierville are getting a little nervous. > You also said, "I can't afford to spend time twiddling knobs to > determine the current state of the transceiver." I agree! In fact, I > would say that during a contest, you can't afford to be twiddling > knobs period. If you are adjusting AGC, Shift, Bandwidth RF gain, > Preamp, Notch, etc during a contest, sounds like DXing more than > contesting to me. Time spent twiddling knobs is time not making Q's. > > I won't dispute that these may be (seem?) "important" to you now, but > I know tons of contesters who simply "do it by ear" and usually don't > twiddle knobs at all. Like K3ZO, on cw I like to select one BW > (usually fairly wide) and that's how I operate the entire contest. If > I have to narrow it for one situation, I immediately "put it back" as > soon as that Q is done. > > So that's MY style of contesting. The purpose of this post is simply > to present another POV (mine). de Doug KR2Q - -- R. Kevin Stover, ACØH -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHUYOf11jxjloa2wsRAnkoAKCZkiVzmvpp7eIvTVDNNHRk2fulaACZAbnc Tj9WnWDQo8VFW8o8C0l30Hc= =f4Am -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Simon (HB9DRV)
Not in this venue-- maybe on the yahoo group perhaps, we should start a
discussion of what a K3 HUD (head's up display) might look like. I am sure there are a bunch of us that could contribute "gadgets" if we could come up with an architecture to support it (e.g., Adobe AIR, Flex, Flash, Java, JSR-168, etc. all of which supported on linux, win, and osx). With a browser-based portal, one could easily design a portal that would allow people to do define a 'gadget' layout that would display whatever information you wanted from the K3 (via K3's data comm). $0.02, Jon w1jp ----- Original Message ----- From: "Simon Brown (HB9DRV)" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 08:49 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 display for contesters > FWIW I am 99.9% sure that all these values will be available via the CAT > interface sooner or later. > > Simon Brown, HB9DRV > <snip/> _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: K3 display for contesters
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In reply to this post by DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL
Ah. I see we've both presented our operating preferences as if they reflect
those of the majority of contesters. Sorry for that. There have been posts from both sides of the fence. Some ops apparently can memorize or hear the radio's settings, and other cannot or don't want to. Thanks to N1EU and P49Y for letting me know I'm not the only person out there who makes mistakes with my radio. One time I switched my FT-1000D RX ANT on to run the low bands listening to my Beverage in the wee hours of CQ WW CW, and forgot that it was on the next morning. It sure was frustrating trying to run 20m with that Beverage! I thought we'd had a solar flare. And the 1000D has a little green light next to the button that I should have noticed. Unfortunately, after 18 or 36 hours of contesting, I'm often on the edge of being able to remember my own name, let alone the radio settings. For me, the more prominent the display, the better. The Orion does a good enough job with DSP that it isn't easy to distinguish between 600Hz, 400Hz, or 200Hz. Sometimes I narrow the passband temporarily to block QRM or enhance a very weak signal. Other times I shift the passband to attenuate interference. Other times I twiddle the RIT because a station is calling me at the edge of the passband. I can't tell just by listening that these changes have been made (and I challenge anyone to be able to tell that RIT has been used just by listening.) Sure, most of the time I immediately reset to zero. In fact, Writelog zeros RIT for me when I log each QSO. But I run SO2R and sometimes I get distracted by something happening on the other radio. By the time I get back to the first radio, I may have forgotten the adjustments I made a couple of minutes ago. I'd appreciate it if you didn't preach to me about contesting style. I believe my scores and standings over the past 10 years speak to that issue. I don't adjust my radio excessively during contests. I may do it a few times every few hours under extreme conditions. That's hardly DXing. Even if done infrequently, a change here or there may not be the right setting for working the next QSO, and a valuable mult may be missed because the settings are off. SO2R contesting is very demanding of the operator's attention, and I don't want to spend any time figuring out that I shifted the passband, tweaked the AGC, inserted the notch, etc. I want to see the status of the radio at a glance, either with a light, a knob position, or a field on the display. It's important to remember that SDRs are relatively new on the ham radio scene and designers are still trying to get it right. In the old days, many settings could be determined by the position of a knob or switch, or perhaps a small LED. The trend today is to use multi-function buttons, knobs with digital encoders, knobs with built-in push buttons, etc. In many cases, the knobs and buttons don't tell you the state of that particular function. This places greater demands on the display to show the current state of the radio. I don't particularly like the Orion's LCD screen, but it's large and capable of displaying any parameters determined by the firmware. If the K3 has a weakness, it's the limited size display. It's going to take some creativity for that display to accommodate the operating needs of a wide variety of users. My comments were posted to help facilitate that. 73, Dick WC1M > Message: 16 > Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 08:28:03 -0500 > From: "DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL" <[hidden email]> > Subject: [Elecraft] K3 display for contesters > To: [hidden email] > Message-ID: > <[hidden email]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hi Dick and other contesters who might be potential buyers but who are > now concerned by Dick's post: > > You said, "but there are many parameters that need to be available > at-a-glance: both VFO frequencies, bandwidth, shift/PBT, RIT/XIT > power, vox, AGC, RF Gain, preamp, notch, NB, receive antenna status, > power, etc. " > > Well, I think that I'm a pretty serious contester and completely > disagree (except for the QRG of both VFO's). I am able to hear the > different characteristics you mention. Narrow BW sounds a lot > different than wide. I'll adjust it (not that I do that much) based > on what sounds right; not by looking at a display or "the numbers." > Who cares what those are...it has to sound right. Same with > shift/pbt. As for RIT/XIT, for me, the only thing that matters is if > it is ON or OFF. If I twiddle either, it will be for a specific QSO. > And as soon as I'm done with that Q, I zero it by tapping the clear > button. If I feel that I need to twiddle it again for another Q, well > then the offset does automatically show up (as I understand it...I > don't have my K3's yet). Power? Why do you want to monitor that. > Isn't it "set it and forget it?" Vox? Are you turning vox on and off > during a contest? Why? Basically, I just do not see why these are > important to you unless it's just a matter of that is what you are > used to now. > > You also said, "I can't afford to spend time twiddling knobs to > determine the current state of the transceiver." I agree! In fact, I > would say that during a contest, you can't afford to be twiddling > knobs period. If you are adjusting AGC, Shift, Bandwidth RF gain, > Preamp, Notch, etc during a contest, sounds like DXing more than > contesting to me. Time spent twiddling knobs is time not making Q's. > > I won't dispute that these may be (seem?) "important" to you now, but > I know tons of contesters who simply "do it by ear" and usually don't > twiddle knobs at all. Like K3ZO, on cw I like to select one BW > (usually fairly wide) and that's how I operate the entire contest. If > I have to narrow it for one situation, I immediately "put it back" as > soon as that Q is done. > > So that's MY style of contesting. The purpose of this post is simply > to present another POV (mine). > > de Doug KR2Q > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: K3 display for contesters
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In reply to this post by DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL
Well, speaking as someone with an "almost" big-gun station, and one who has
operated from several of the biggest stations in the Northeast, with some of the best operators on the planet, and also one who has had the rate meter up to 350/hr in Barbados, I can tell you that knobs can and do get twiddled during big runs on 20m. QRM is QRM, regardless of the station size, and lids don't know how to zero beat regardless of who you are. I've seen top guns twiddle every knob they can get their hands on to pull a weak mult out of the mud during a big run. And big guns have to spend considerable time S&Ping just like the little guys. If you don't tune, you miss many, many mults. That's what SO2R is all about. I'm offended by your insinuation about my posts. Yes, I'm an Orion owner and I was an active beta tester of the Orion for years. I worked very hard to help Ten-Tec track down bugs in the firmware and enhance the radio. The reason I'm here is that ultimately Ten-Tec let the customer base down by not fixing glaring faults in the Orion firmware and by ending the beta test program abruptly. What started out as a revolutionary radio with fabulous potential ended up as a sad collection of lost opportunities. Why? Because Ten-Tec didn't listen to its beta testers and its loyal owners. We reported many, many bugs, design flaws and ergonomic issues with the radio, many of them fixable, and they ignored us. They also prematurely killed the resale value of the Orion I by producing the Orion II instead of an upgrade kit for the original radio. I was delighted to see that the folks at Elecraft seized the opportunity to take a similar SDR design to the next level. In looking over the specs, and reading their responses on this reflector, I've seen that they're a whole different breed from the folks we worked with at Ten-Tec. I won't hesitate to say that I think the technical abilities are far superior at Elecraft. I'm a 30-year veteran of the software industry, and I'm very impressed by Wayne's abilities and even more so by his attitude. That last part is what really stands out about Elecraft. They seem to be listening very carefully to the feedback from their customers, and when possible they're moving quickly and decisively to correct problems and implement enhancements. That's great service, and should make the K3 and the company a big winner. I voted with my wallet on that issue by ordering a nicely loaded K3 yesterday. So much for non-owners loyal to Ten-Tec. I placed my order despite misgivings that I'd be better off waiting for the first wave of hardware updates to come out. I came to the conclusion that, unlike Ten-Tec, Elecraft will keep the customer base well-informed about updates and will make them available. That's all I really need -- a manufacturer who is committed to all customers, not just the new ones (heck, you can't even get an alignment manual from Ten-Tec.) Let me caution the members of this reflector about something. You don't want this valuable forum to degenerate into a manufacturer love-fest like the Orion reflector. At times it's been difficult to raise legitimate criticisms of the Orion without getting flamed from all sides by Ten-Tec loyalists, many of whom have limited technical knowledge and experience. My comments are not meant to be negative. It's very important to point out potential errors, design flaws and usability problems in an open and honest way. That's the only way that Elecraft can get the precious feedback they need to establish product leadership. We should not be shy about criticizing some aspect of the implementation if we think it's wrong. We won't be right all the time, but that's also a valuable function of this forum: the ability of users to debate each other on the merits of some design issue or suggestion. That process can be a little messy, and sometimes the back-and-forth can get testy, but like democracy the result is preferable to the alternative: keeping everyone in the dark and being afraid to speak one's mind. Sometimes I think people on this reflector are afraid to challenge Elecraft. My sense so far is that Elecraft welcomes it because they're darned good engineers, don't have a lot of ego, and are committed to making the best product they can. That's the kind of company and product I want to invest in. 73, Dick WC1M > Message: 31 > Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 09:54:07 -0600 > From: "R. Kevin Stover" <[hidden email]> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 display for contesters > To: DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL <[hidden email]> > Cc: [hidden email] > Message-ID: <[hidden email]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Ditto that Doug, > > When I'm contesting with my K2 the only knob that gets "twiddled" is > the > VFO with an occasional push of XFIL. I can't imagine a big gun station > holding sway on 20 meters moving anything on the rig. They sure don't > have to S+P like we little pistols do. > > I've also noticed a disturbing trend on the reflector. That being most > of the negative posts, what few there have been, and none from actual > owners or buyers of the K3, have come from people well known on the > Ten-Tec list and are Orion owners/users. > > Kinda makes you go "Hummmm". > Maybe the boys in Sevierville are getting a little nervous. > > > > You also said, "I can't afford to spend time twiddling knobs to > > determine the current state of the transceiver." I agree! In fact, > I > > would say that during a contest, you can't afford to be twiddling > > knobs period. If you are adjusting AGC, Shift, Bandwidth RF gain, > > Preamp, Notch, etc during a contest, sounds like DXing more than > > contesting to me. Time spent twiddling knobs is time not making Q's. > > > > I won't dispute that these may be (seem?) "important" to you now, but > > I know tons of contesters who simply "do it by ear" and usually don't > > twiddle knobs at all. Like K3ZO, on cw I like to select one BW > > (usually fairly wide) and that's how I operate the entire contest. > If > > I have to narrow it for one situation, I immediately "put it back" as > > soon as that Q is done. > > > > So that's MY style of contesting. The purpose of this post is simply > > to present another POV (mine). > > > de Doug KR2Q > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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