K3 doesn't work in AFSK-A mode but DATA-A does work. What's broken?

[Ed Pflueger]

Well I made the same modifications to K3 #2971 and using the USB interface
am able to do AFSK just fine using MMTTY.  Sounds like there is a Gremlin
loose somewhere.  I have a K3S (10858) and using a dummy load and wattmeter
and can copy everything that #2971 transmits and vice versa.  I did the same
thing with my K3S (10853) in the house and 2971 out in the garage and all
systems are go..

Sorry I can't help more.

Ed.. AB4IQ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim Rhodes
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2020 9:23 AM
To: n9ok <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 doesn't work in AFSK-A mode but DATA-A does work.
What's broken?

OK, I set things back up with AFSK for RTTY instead of FSK. My results were
the same as Joe's. If I set data mode to DATA A things work as expected
whether using VOX or my usual interface for PTT. However when I switch data
mode to AFSK and VOX on and hit the TX button nothing happens, if I plug in
the FSK interface just for PTT the K3 goes into transmit but there is no
output and no tones in the monitor.  My only conclusion is that there is
some logic in the K3 or the new USB interface that is not routing the audio
properly in AFSK mode. This is apparently not the case with the K3S.  So Joe
there is your answer. It is not your setup it is the radio. Maybe when the
K4 is all rolled out they can take a look at the firmware and come up with a
solution.  My current FSK interface is 2 transistors and 2 resistors in each
of 2 db9s connected in parallel to the db15hd pins for PTT & FSK.
This allows for SO2V operation with minimal fuss. I have never owned a
commercial interface, so have no experience with them.

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 6:26 AM n9ok <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks to all who've provided suggestions.
>
> I've given up on making ASFK-A work with RTTY and am going back to FSK.
> It's
> a more complex setup, but it works. The engineer part of me is pretty
> irritated about this. I don't like giving up on problems. However, I
> think I've done everything I can on this end and I have better things
> to do than to stress about this.
>
> 73 Joe N9OK
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
> ______________________________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
>

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[Richard Ferch-2]

Like Wes, I have an original K3 which I have been using in AFSK-A for
years. I use N1MM+ with either MMTTY or 2Tone as the RTTY "engine". A few
months ago I installed the KIO3B upgrade in my K3. After I installed the
upgrade, AFSK-A RTTY worked right from the start using the USB audio codec.
I had no difficulties in getting it going.

73,
Rich VE3KI

N9OK wrote:

Jim,

Thank you very much for confirming that what I see isn't due to a broken K3.

I agree that if firmware can fix this, it would be very nice. Elecraft had
this particular feature listed in the feature set for the upgrade, IIRC,
which is a large reason I splurged on the upgrade. I didn't want any more
external interface confusion.

On to configuring for FSK and perhaps playing in BARTG a little.

73 Joe N9OK
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[ng7m]

Joe, I can confirm the same success for using AFSK A with VOX to key the
radio... and just for kicks and giggles... I have a K3S and a K3, the K3
has the KIO3B install and I tested the AFSK A setup with MMTTY and N1MM on
both radios.  *The conjecture / reports that it only works on a K3S is a
total red herring as Wes and Rich have reported? Wow that is a tangent for
sure...*  They (K3S/K3 with the USB KIO3B) work exactly the same gents,
there is nothing magical about the K3S.  I actually made a quick and dirty
YouTube video for you (Joe N9OK) and I'll send you the link to the video as
soon as it's published.  It walks you would a setup for AFSK A direct with
MMTTY and shows a test... and shows you all the configuration screens so
you can pause the video and compare to your setup. I then reference that
instance of MMTTY in N1MM and show the setup there.... and I work some
stations... all using AFSK A on a K3 with the the KIO3B using VOX to key
the radio. It's a March miracle.

Max NG7M

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:57 AM Richard Ferch <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Like Wes, I have an original K3 which I have been using in AFSK-A for
> years. I use N1MM+ with either MMTTY or 2Tone as the RTTY "engine". A few
> months ago I installed the KIO3B upgrade in my K3. After I installed the
> upgrade, AFSK-A RTTY worked right from the start using the USB audio codec.
> I had no difficulties in getting it going.
>
> 73,
> Rich VE3KI
>
> N9OK wrote:
>
> Jim,
>
> Thank you very much for confirming that what I see isn't due to a broken
> K3.
>
> I agree that if firmware can fix this, it would be very nice. Elecraft had
> this particular feature listed in the feature set for the upgrade, IIRC,
> which is a large reason I splurged on the upgrade. I didn't want any more
> external interface confusion.
>
> On to configuring for FSK and perhaps playing in BARTG a little.
>
> 73 Joe N9OK
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

--
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[Bob McGraw - K4TAX]

It is not necessary to use VOX if the TX command is configured correctly
in MMTTY.    I run MMTTY direct and do not use N1MM+ or other
applications.    The reason for me NOT using VOX is that I use VOX for
other operations and don't like having to change the VOX settings for
MMTTY.   Of course if one doesn't use VOX for SSB then set the values
for MMTTY and carry on.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 3/21/2020 12:37 PM, M. George wrote:

> Joe, I can confirm the same success for using AFSK A with VOX to key the
> radio... and just for kicks and giggles... I have a K3S and a K3, the K3
> has the KIO3B install and I tested the AFSK A setup with MMTTY and N1MM on
> both radios.  *The conjecture / reports that it only works on a K3S is a
> total red herring as Wes and Rich have reported? Wow that is a tangent for
> sure...*  They (K3S/K3 with the USB KIO3B) work exactly the same gents,
> there is nothing magical about the K3S.  I actually made a quick and dirty
> YouTube video for you (Joe N9OK) and I'll send you the link to the video as
> soon as it's published.  It walks you would a setup for AFSK A direct with
> MMTTY and shows a test... and shows you all the configuration screens so
> you can pause the video and compare to your setup. I then reference that
> instance of MMTTY in N1MM and show the setup there.... and I work some
> stations... all using AFSK A on a K3 with the the KIO3B using VOX to key
> the radio. It's a March miracle.
>
> Max NG7M
>
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:57 AM Richard Ferch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Like Wes, I have an original K3 which I have been using in AFSK-A for
>> years. I use N1MM+ with either MMTTY or 2Tone as the RTTY "engine". A few
>> months ago I installed the KIO3B upgrade in my K3. After I installed the
>> upgrade, AFSK-A RTTY worked right from the start using the USB audio codec.
>> I had no difficulties in getting it going.
>>
>> 73,
>> Rich VE3KI
>>
>> N9OK wrote:
>>
>> Jim,
>>
>> Thank you very much for confirming that what I see isn't due to a broken
>> K3.
>>
>> I agree that if firmware can fix this, it would be very nice. Elecraft had
>> this particular feature listed in the feature set for the upgrade, IIRC,
>> which is a large reason I splurged on the upgrade. I didn't want any more
>> external interface confusion.
>>
>> On to configuring for FSK and perhaps playing in BARTG a little.
>>
>> 73 Joe N9OK
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>

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[ng7m]

Bob, I'm very well aware of that fact... what we don't need here is yet
another tangent on how many different ways they are to key the K3/S from
MMTTY.... sheesh Yes... you can key the rig with the CAT setup from MMTTY
and or use a data line on a serial port etc.  you could use a foot pedal
hooked up to the PPT IN on the K3/S and stomp on the floor too.    This is
not the point at this stage of the game.  Let's help get Joe up and
running.  The FUD that's going on here is out of control.  i.e. K3S works
differently than a K3 with the KIO3B.  Out of control.  Max NG7M

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 11:44 AM Bob McGraw K4TAX <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> It is not necessary to use VOX if the TX command is configured correctly
> in MMTTY.    I run MMTTY direct and do not use N1MM+ or other
> applications.    The reason for me NOT using VOX is that I use VOX for
> other operations and don't like having to change the VOX settings for
> MMTTY.   Of course if one doesn't use VOX for SSB then set the values
> for MMTTY and carry on.
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
> On 3/21/2020 12:37 PM, M. George wrote:
> > Joe, I can confirm the same success for using AFSK A with VOX to key the
> > radio... and just for kicks and giggles... I have a K3S and a K3, the K3
> > has the KIO3B install and I tested the AFSK A setup with MMTTY and N1MM
> on
> > both radios.  *The conjecture / reports that it only works on a K3S is a
> > total red herring as Wes and Rich have reported? Wow that is a tangent
> for
> > sure...*  They (K3S/K3 with the USB KIO3B) work exactly the same gents,
> > there is nothing magical about the K3S.  I actually made a quick and
> dirty
> > YouTube video for you (Joe N9OK) and I'll send you the link to the video
> as
> > soon as it's published.  It walks you would a setup for AFSK A direct
> with
> > MMTTY and shows a test... and shows you all the configuration screens so
> > you can pause the video and compare to your setup. I then reference that
> > instance of MMTTY in N1MM and show the setup there.... and I work some
> > stations... all using AFSK A on a K3 with the the KIO3B using VOX to key
> > the radio. It's a March miracle.
> >
> > Max NG7M
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:57 AM Richard Ferch <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Like Wes, I have an original K3 which I have been using in AFSK-A for
> >> years. I use N1MM+ with either MMTTY or 2Tone as the RTTY "engine". A
> few
> >> months ago I installed the KIO3B upgrade in my K3. After I installed the
> >> upgrade, AFSK-A RTTY worked right from the start using the USB audio
> codec.
> >> I had no difficulties in getting it going.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >> Rich VE3KI
> >>
> >> N9OK wrote:
> >>
> >> Jim,
> >>
> >> Thank you very much for confirming that what I see isn't due to a broken
> >> K3.
> >>
> >> I agree that if firmware can fix this, it would be very nice. Elecraft
> had
> >> this particular feature listed in the feature set for the upgrade, IIRC,
> >> which is a large reason I splurged on the upgrade. I didn't want any
> more
> >> external interface confusion.
> >>
> >> On to configuring for FSK and perhaps playing in BARTG a little.
> >>
> >> 73 Joe N9OK
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> >>
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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[Jim Brown-10]

On 3/21/2020 8:07 AM, Jim Rhodes wrote:
> The AFSK works
> in DATA A, so it should work in AFSK A. Has to be an unintentional glitch.

That may depend on your RTTY software. By convention, MOST RTTY AFSK
software (MMTTY, 2TONE, GRITTY) depends on the radio transmitting LSB,
and that's how Elecraft radios do it -- the AFSK setting is LSB.

Virtually all other digital mode software uses USB, and DIGITAL A in
Elecraft radios is USB.  Both AFSK and DIGITAL A take computer-encoded
audio from the LINE IN.

In AFSK-A mode, Baud rate and RTTY tone frequencies settings in the
radio must match the frequencies sent by the computer.

Other settings that can prevent RTTY from working are audio drive level
from the computer and VOX.

73, K9YC
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[Jim Brown-10]

On 3/21/2020 10:43 AM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
> It is not necessary to use VOX if the TX command is configured correctly
> in MMTTY.    I run MMTTY direct and do not use N1MM+ or other
> applications.    The reason for me NOT using VOX is that I use VOX for
> other operations and don't like having to change the VOX settings for
> MMTTY.   Of course if one doesn't use VOX for SSB then set the values
> for MMTTY and carry on.

I make thousands of RTTY and WSJT-X QSOs a year. For many years, I've
used nothing but VOX to key my ancient K3s for SSB and all digital modes
(RTTY and WSJT-X). Elecraft remember a lot of settings by band and mode,
so once I've set them, levels have never been a problem for me. I'm
using a good USB audio interface designed for semi-pro audio
applications, a Tascam US100 (long discontinued, available at the great
auction site). That improves decoding as compared to the built-in sound
of many computers, but that's all it changes.

BTW -- with a K3 and no built-in USB, using VOX rather than a "pull to
ground" PTT reduces by one the number of cables between computer and
radio, and a second USB port in the radio.

73, Jim K9YC




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[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

On 2020-03-21 10:23 AM, Jim Rhodes wrote:
> My only conclusion is that there is some logic in the K3 or the new
> USB interface that is not routing the audio properly in AFSK mode.
If one look at the schematic fr the KIO3B there is *no difference*
between the KIO3B USB audio and the original KIO3 with an external
soundcard.  The sound card output is routed through the normally
closed connections of the Line In jack.

The *only way* one can have transmit with DATA_A and no output in
AFSK_A is if the user has CONFIG:AFSK TX = FIL ON and the RTTY
program's MARK tone does not match the MARK tone set in "PITCH".

The easy way to confirm this issue is simply set CONFIG:AFSK TX =
FIL OFF.

Issues of VOX are a red herring ... one can use software command
for PTT (TX; / RX; in MMTTY) or the DTR line on the CAT port
CONFIG:PTT-KEY = DTR-off (both of which can be supported by MMTTY,
and N1MM+).

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 2020-03-21 10:23 AM, Jim Rhodes wrote:

> OK, I set things back up with AFSK for RTTY instead of FSK. My results were
> the same as Joe's. If I set data mode to DATA A things work as expected
> whether using VOX or my usual interface for PTT. However when I switch data
> mode to AFSK and VOX on and hit the TX button nothing happens, if I plug in
> the FSK interface just for PTT the K3 goes into transmit but there is no
> output and no tones in the monitor.  My only conclusion is that there is
> some logic in the K3 or the new USB interface that is not routing the audio
> properly in AFSK mode. This is apparently not the case with the K3S.  So
> Joe there is your answer. It is not your setup it is the radio. Maybe when
> the K4 is all rolled out they can take a look at the firmware and come up
> with a solution.  My current FSK interface is 2 transistors and 2 resistors
> in each of 2 db9s connected in parallel to the db15hd pins for PTT & FSK.
> This allows for SO2V operation with minimal fuss. I have never owned a
> commercial interface, so have no experience with them.
>
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 6:26 AM n9ok <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Thanks to all who've provided suggestions.
>>
>> I've given up on making ASFK-A work with RTTY and am going back to FSK.
>> It's
>> a more complex setup, but it works. The engineer part of me is pretty
>> irritated about this. I don't like giving up on problems. However, I think
>> I've done everything I can on this end and I have better things to do than
>> to stress about this.
>>
>> 73 Joe N9OK
>>
>>

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[Jim Rhodes-2]

OK, I have to admit that I just went back and tried it again and it does
work as it should. This morning I could make it stop working just by
switching the mode from DATA A to AFSK A. This afternoon it seems to make
no difference which is selected, they both work and with VOX.  Nice to know
if I ever need it, but I will continue to use FSK when in RTTY mode.  After
all these decades I am just more comfortable with it and it only takes 1
com port per "radio" running SO2V. And I know Win 10 can't mess up the
levels if I don't use any. Notebook when portable might get this treatment
though.


On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 12:38 PM M. George <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Joe, I can confirm the same success for using AFSK A with VOX to key the
> radio... and just for kicks and giggles... I have a K3S and a K3, the K3
> has the KIO3B install and I tested the AFSK A setup with MMTTY and N1MM on
> both radios.  *The conjecture / reports that it only works on a K3S is a
> total red herring as Wes and Rich have reported? Wow that is a tangent for
> sure...*  They (K3S/K3 with the USB KIO3B) work exactly the same gents,
> there is nothing magical about the K3S.  I actually made a quick and dirty
> YouTube video for you (Joe N9OK) and I'll send you the link to the video as
> soon as it's published.  It walks you would a setup for AFSK A direct with
> MMTTY and shows a test... and shows you all the configuration screens so
> you can pause the video and compare to your setup. I then reference that
> instance of MMTTY in N1MM and show the setup there.... and I work some
> stations... all using AFSK A on a K3 with the the KIO3B using VOX to key
> the radio. It's a March miracle.
>
> Max NG7M
>
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 10:57 AM Richard Ferch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Like Wes, I have an original K3 which I have been using in AFSK-A for
> > years. I use N1MM+ with either MMTTY or 2Tone as the RTTY "engine". A few
> > months ago I installed the KIO3B upgrade in my K3. After I installed the
> > upgrade, AFSK-A RTTY worked right from the start using the USB audio
> codec.
> > I had no difficulties in getting it going.
> >
> > 73,
> > Rich VE3KI
> >
> > N9OK wrote:
> >
> > Jim,
> >
> > Thank you very much for confirming that what I see isn't due to a broken
> > K3.
> >
> > I agree that if firmware can fix this, it would be very nice. Elecraft
> had
> > this particular feature listed in the feature set for the upgrade, IIRC,
> > which is a large reason I splurged on the upgrade. I didn't want any more
> > external interface confusion.
> >
> > On to configuring for FSK and perhaps playing in BARTG a little.
> >
> > 73 Joe N9OK
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
> >
>
>
> --
> M. George
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

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[n9ok]

Starting with a clean MMTTY installation and carefully going thru the minimal
required changes to that installation to make it work, my K3 now works as
expected. I am able to successfully transmit using AFSK.

Many thanks to all of you for your suggestions, screen shots, helpful
advice, etc. You guys are great!  Special thanks to NG7M and N7US who both
provided ample assistance. Apparently 7th district guys are particularly
helpful!

Frustratingly, I don't know what about the installation was incorrect. It
could well have been something intermittent in the K3. Or some silly
misconfiguration on my part. I hope it was an MMTTY configuration issue but
only time will tell.

I will try sticking with AFSK for now, but possibly switch to FSK in the
future in order to avoid the inherent difficulties with obtaining a clean TX
signal with AFSK.

Joe N9OK



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[Jim Brown-10]

On 3/21/2020 12:50 PM, n9ok wrote:
>   I don't know what about the installation was incorrect. It
> could well have been something intermittent in the K3. Or some silly
> misconfiguration on my part. I hope it was an MMTTY configuration issue but
> only time will tell.

There are "gotchas" buried in MMTTY .ini files that can bite us if we
use low- or mid-frequency audio tones. They assume that you use the
default high tones, so if you do, there's no problem. But if you use low
tones, as I do because they make it easier for my ear-brain to tune in
RTTY signals, the two .ini files in the MMTTY directory must be edited
to define the low or mid tones you've chosen. MMTTY.ini defines general
setup, while USERPARA.ini defines all of the optional decoding
algorithms, like "Fluttered Signals," "Multi-path," and so on.  If
you're using low or mid tones and these files are not edited, every time
you change the decoding algorithm you'll be reset to high tones. (I
learned this the hard way.) :)

This is the line that must be changed to whichever tone you have chosen.
It occurs multiple times in both MMTTY.ini and USERPARA.ini
DefMarkFreq=2.125000e+03

Scientific notation is used to define the frequency -- 2.125 x 10e3 Hz
-- 10e3 means x1,000, so 2,125 Hz.

These files must be edited with a plain text editor (Notepad on a
Windoze machine) and saved in the same directory and with the same
filename and extension.

FWIW, I'm using 2Tone as my primary RTTY software, because it can select
between left and right channels for both RX and TX. MMTTY can select
between left and right for RX, but not for TX (that is, it sends to both
L and R). I do this because I do SO2R contesting, running both radios
from the same computer. I use MMTTY for second decode windows on both
radios. 2Tone, by a ham in the UK, has many advantages, including
improved decoding and carefully shaped keying for minimum distortion.
GRITTY is by VE3NEA, who wrote Skimmers for both CW and RTTY. I haven't
tried it yet.

73, Jim K9YC
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