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K3 doesn't work in AFSK-A mode but DATA-A does work. What's broken?

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Joe N9OK

K3 doesn't work in AFSK-A mode but DATA-A does work. What's broken?

I've reached out to Elecraft Tech Support on this issue. With their locale
on lockdown, I think they have their hands full just trying to maintain
some sense of normalcy. So I'm hoping someone here can point me in the
right direction.

I've recently upgraded my K3 with numerous "last time buy" options (KAT3A
antenna tuner, 2 KSUN3A synthesizers, and KIO3B usb board). One goal was to
remove the Microkeyer II and simplifying the setup.

What I'm finding now is that I can't make RTTY work correctly. I use MMTTY
to generate a simple warble signal, which is sent to my K3. The K3 is set
to AFSK-A, VOX enable, audio levels set correctly. What happens is that the
K3 TX LED illuminates, but nothing is heard with the Monitor (ie, thru the
K3 speaker), and there is no RF transmitted. However, when I use DATA-A, I
do hear tones using Monitor, and there is RF power.

I get the same results using either the K3 internal sound card, or
externally-generated audio (fed from my PC soundcard to Line-In on the K3).

Hoping there was a configuration issue, I factory reset my K3. That didn't
help.

It's probable this issue has been there since I first purchased my K3 new 8
years ago, but I never noticed. My MKII was used as my interface, and I was
running FSK for RTTY. I did have many configuration issues with my MKII
setup, which in retrospect might well be related to the AFSK issue that's
now obvious.

I'm suspecting this is a hardware issue. I have the 59 pages of schematics,
and am going thru them to see if I can identify the issue so I can fix it.
I would appreciate comments / suggestions / ideas to point me in the right
direction.

73, Joe N9OK

73, Joe N9OK
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Wes Stewart-2

Re: K3 doesn't work in AFSK-A mode but DATA-A does work.What's broken?

Do the MMTTY tones match the ones (Pitch) in the K3?

Wes N7WS

On 3/20/2020 5:40 AM, Joe N9OK wrote:

> I've reached out to Elecraft Tech Support on this issue. With their locale
> on lockdown, I think they have their hands full just trying to maintain
> some sense of normalcy. So I'm hoping someone here can point me in the
> right direction.
>
> I've recently upgraded my K3 with numerous "last time buy" options (KAT3A
> antenna tuner, 2 KSUN3A synthesizers, and KIO3B usb board). One goal was to
> remove the Microkeyer II and simplifying the setup.
>
> What I'm finding now is that I can't make RTTY work correctly. I use MMTTY
> to generate a simple warble signal, which is sent to my K3. The K3 is set
> to AFSK-A, VOX enable, audio levels set correctly. What happens is that the
> K3 TX LED illuminates, but nothing is heard with the Monitor (ie, thru the
> K3 speaker), and there is no RF transmitted. However, when I use DATA-A, I
> do hear tones using Monitor, and there is RF power.
>
> I get the same results using either the K3 internal sound card, or
> externally-generated audio (fed from my PC soundcard to Line-In on the K3).
>
> Hoping there was a configuration issue, I factory reset my K3. That didn't
> help.
>
> It's probable this issue has been there since I first purchased my K3 new 8
> years ago, but I never noticed. My MKII was used as my interface, and I was
> running FSK for RTTY. I did have many configuration issues with my MKII
> setup, which in retrospect might well be related to the AFSK issue that's
> now obvious.
>
> I'm suspecting this is a hardware issue. I have the 59 pages of schematics,
> and am going thru them to see if I can identify the issue so I can fix it.
> I would appreciate comments / suggestions / ideas to point me in the right
> direction.
>
> 73, Joe N9OK
>
> 73, Joe N9OK
> ______________________________________________________________
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Nr4c

Re: K3 doesn't work in AFSK-A mode but DATA-A does work. What's broken?

In reply to this post by Joe N9OK

Are you using software such as n1mm+ to send the RTTY? If so check to verify it isn’t changing the DATA/AFSK to DATA/FSK D?

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill

> On Mar 20, 2020, at 8:42 AM, Joe N9OK <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I've reached out to Elecraft Tech Support on this issue. With their locale
> on lockdown, I think they have their hands full just trying to maintain
> some sense of normalcy. So I'm hoping someone here can point me in the
> right direction.
>
> I've recently upgraded my K3 with numerous "last time buy" options (KAT3A
> antenna tuner, 2 KSUN3A synthesizers, and KIO3B usb board). One goal was to
> remove the Microkeyer II and simplifying the setup.
>
> What I'm finding now is that I can't make RTTY work correctly. I use MMTTY
> to generate a simple warble signal, which is sent to my K3. The K3 is set
> to AFSK-A, VOX enable, audio levels set correctly. What happens is that the
> K3 TX LED illuminates, but nothing is heard with the Monitor (ie, thru the
> K3 speaker), and there is no RF transmitted. However, when I use DATA-A, I
> do hear tones using Monitor, and there is RF power.
>
> I get the same results using either the K3 internal sound card, or
> externally-generated audio (fed from my PC soundcard to Line-In on the K3).
>
> Hoping there was a configuration issue, I factory reset my K3. That didn't
> help.
>
> It's probable this issue has been there since I first purchased my K3 new 8
> years ago, but I never noticed. My MKII was used as my interface, and I was
> running FSK for RTTY. I did have many configuration issues with my MKII
> setup, which in retrospect might well be related to the AFSK issue that's
> now obvious.
>
> I'm suspecting this is a hardware issue. I have the 59 pages of schematics,
> and am going thru them to see if I can identify the issue so I can fix it.
> I would appreciate comments / suggestions / ideas to point me in the right
> direction.
>
> 73, Joe N9OK
>
> 73, Joe N9OK
> ______________________________________________________________
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n9ok

Re: K3 doesn't work in AFSK-A mode but DATA-A does work. What's broken?

Bill, I've greatly simplified the setup for troubleshooting. All I have
running is MMTTY. The radio mode is for sure ASFK A.

If I simply change the mode to DATA A, all is well.

This seems to argue again a hardware issue, at least for the keying part of
the circuit.

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Don Wilhelm

Re: K3 doesn't work in AFSK-A mode but DATA-A does work. What's broken?

You said you have sufficient audio, but please look at the ALC meter and
tell us whether or not you have 4 bars solid with the 5th flashing
during transmit. That is proof of sufficient audio.

Have you tried setting a different tone (say 915Hz) in both MMTTY and
the K3?

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/20/2020 10:30 AM, n9ok wrote:
> Bill, I've greatly simplified the setup for troubleshooting. All I have
> running is MMTTY. The radio mode is for sure ASFK A.
>
> If I simply change the mode to DATA A, all is well.
>
> This seems to argue again a hardware issue, at least for the keying part of
> the circuit.
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n9ok

Re: K3 doesn't work in AFSK-A mode but DATA-A does work. What's broken?

Don, 5 solid bars on the ALC meter.

I've tried numerous tone combinations including 915/170 and 2127/170. Solid
5 bars ALC for all. TX illuminates, but no Monitor tone and no RF Power.

Joe N9OK

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ng7m

Re: K3 doesn't work in AFSK-A mode but DATA-A does work. What's broken?

In reply to this post by Joe N9OK

Joe, I created a super detailed and verbose YouTube video on the K3 RTTY /
FSK setup <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EToCJ5GeZSE>. If you are not
interested in setting up FSK, you still might find it handy on setting up
the receive side of the equation. It goes in to great detail on selecting
the tones you prefer and demos everything due to the fact that I made the
video while an active contest was going on. You can jump head and back 10
seconds at a time on YouTube with the J and L keys and pause with the K or
space bar... or jump ahead and back with the arrow keys 5 seconds.

If you devour the whole video, it pretty much covers about all there is to
cover on a K3 RTTY setup with N1MM and MMTTY / FSK. Again, the audio
receive setup would still be helpful if you decide to go the AFSK route
which is fine too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EToCJ5GeZSE

Based on comments over the last several years, many have found this useful
and I only needed to go through the explanation once. :) Max NG7M

On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 6:40 AM Joe N9OK <[hidden email]> wrote:

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n9ok

Re: K3 doesn't work in AFSK-A mode but DATA-A does work. What's broken?

Thanks, Max. I've seen several other threads reference your video recently.
Taking a look now. Focusing almost 2 hours to watch something is daunting
:), but I'm watching now. 10 minutes in, it's informative so far.
73 Joe N9OK

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ng7m

Re: K3 doesn't work in AFSK-A mode but DATA-A does work. What's broken?

Joe, thanks for the follow up note... (I had to add confusion) but, I
should mention that If do want to setup and transmit FSK internally to the
K3/S AND you don't want to go the serial port route to control PTT and FSK
off Serial port control lines. You could go with TinyFSK... which
dedicates a single board computer to timing the Mark and Shift tones and
PTT. So a couple years after the video you are watching now, I got around
to making a TinyFSK Video <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT5SfhUtTAw>
which shows you how to use what is called a MORTTY Kit
<https://hamprojects.info/mortty/> which makes using TinyFSK a breeze:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT5SfhUtTAw All as I'm saying is, if you
want to use internal FSK with your K3/S, you might want to consider buying
a MORTTY kit if you don't want to use a serial port to control PTT and FSK
mark/shift timing. So this video covers setting up MORTTY. Clearly, you
can start off with AFSK and they venture into the FSK world later... or
not...

What you have in the K3/S with the later firmware is the best rig available
for creating the cleanest / narrowest / bandwidth friendly FSK signal. And
if you invest the time into setting up FSK, you are immune from ever under
driving or over driving an AFSK signal. Not to open up this big freaking
can of worms and start a rhetorical holy war that has been fought over the
years between the pros and cons of FSK and AFSK... but using FSK on a K3/S
alleviates you from worrying about setting AFSK drive levels. I'm not
saying AFSK is bad... (I'm sitting here with fear and trepidation that
someone is going to go on a tirade now about AFSK being better than FSK...
GROAN... please don't do it here on the Elecraft List). I prefer FSK on my
K3S because I never need to worry about fiddling with the drive levels in a
moments notice when some DX station comes on RTTY (which is rare these days
anyway with the FT modes, sigh...). One less thing to worry about. If
someone else loves AFSK and dreams about AFSK and eats and sleeps AFSK and
talks about how wonderful it is with your XYL... knock your self out. It's
nice to have options. A properly driven sound card based AFSK signal is
great too. I don't argue or deny that at all.

Anyway, have fun tinkering and deciding what you like based on your own
research. Max NG7M

On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 3:19 PM n9ok <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks, Max. I've seen several other threads reference your video recently.
> Taking a look now. Focusing almost 2 hours to watch something is daunting
> :), but I'm watching now. 10 minutes in, it's informative so far.
> 73 Joe N9OK
>
>

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gt-i

Re: K3 doesn't work in AFSK-A mode but DATA-A does work. What's broken?

In reply to this post by Joe N9OK

Joe,
Have you selected LINE-IN in the MIC-SEL config-menu?
73 Gernot DF5RF

Am 20.03.2020 um 13:40 schrieb Joe N9OK:

Jim Rhodes-2

Re: K3 doesn't work in AFSK-A mode but DATA-A does work. What's broken?

I have seen several different people make suggestions (often the same ones
others have suggested) but I have not seen anyone with a similar setup tell
what their experience is. I do have a similar setup but am not currently
living near home due to temporary work location. I will be home over the
weekend and will try to duplicate the issue. I have always used FSK when
running RTTY but use DATA A of course when using FT modes so I have no
comparison until I try AFSK in RTTY. K3 is currently boxed up since
returning from a portable op, so will attempt to find time to set it all
back up and give AFSK a try. (Why do we call it "wireless"?)

On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 8:06 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Joe,
> Have you selected LINE-IN in the MIC-SEL config-menu?
> 73 Gernot DF5RF
>
> Am 20.03.2020 um 13:40 schrieb Joe N9OK:
> > I've reached out to Elecraft Tech Support on this issue. With their
> locale
> > on lockdown, I think they have their hands full just trying to maintain
> > some sense of normalcy. So I'm hoping someone here can point me in the
> > right direction.
> >
> > I've recently upgraded my K3 with numerous "last time buy" options (KAT3A
> > antenna tuner, 2 KSUN3A synthesizers, and KIO3B usb board). One goal was
> to
> > remove the Microkeyer II and simplifying the setup.
> >
> > What I'm finding now is that I can't make RTTY work correctly. I use
> MMTTY
> > to generate a simple warble signal, which is sent to my K3. The K3 is set
> > to AFSK-A, VOX enable, audio levels set correctly. What happens is that
> the
> > K3 TX LED illuminates, but nothing is heard with the Monitor (ie, thru
> the
> > K3 speaker), and there is no RF transmitted. However, when I use DATA-A,
> I
> > do hear tones using Monitor, and there is RF power.
> >
> > I get the same results using either the K3 internal sound card, or
> > externally-generated audio (fed from my PC soundcard to Line-In on the
> K3).
> >
> > Hoping there was a configuration issue, I factory reset my K3. That
> didn't
> > help.
> >
> > It's probable this issue has been there since I first purchased my K3
> new 8
> > years ago, but I never noticed. My MKII was used as my interface, and I
> was
> > running FSK for RTTY. I did have many configuration issues with my MKII
> > setup, which in retrospect might well be related to the AFSK issue that's
> > now obvious.
> >
> > I'm suspecting this is a hardware issue. I have the 59 pages of
> schematics,
> > and am going thru them to see if I can identify the issue so I can fix
> it.
> > I would appreciate comments / suggestions / ideas to point me in the
> right
> > direction.
> >
> > 73, Joe N9OK
> >
> > 73, Joe N9OK
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
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Wes Stewart-2

Re: K3 doesn't work in AFSK-A mode but DATA-A does work. What's broken?

I have used a K3 on AFSK RTTY beginning in 2008 with the laptop computer
internal sound card until I got a K3S and ultimately converted to the internal
sound device.

I always use VOX and a variant of MMTTY (AXETTY for DXBase). My earlier
suggestions were based on cockpit errors that I have encountered. Now the
system works flawlessly, even while using LPBridge to share a single port with
multiple apps.

Wes N7WS

On 3/20/2020 7:36 PM, Jim Rhodes wrote:

> I have seen several different people make suggestions (often the same ones
> others have suggested) but I have not seen anyone with a similar setup tell
> what their experience is. I do have a similar setup but am not currently
> living near home due to temporary work location. I will be home over the
> weekend and will try to duplicate the issue. I have always used FSK when
> running RTTY but use DATA A of course when using FT modes so I have no
> comparison until I try AFSK in RTTY. K3 is currently boxed up since
> returning from a portable op, so will attempt to find time to set it all
> back up and give AFSK a try. (Why do we call it "wireless"?)
>

n9ok

Re: K3 doesn't work in AFSK-A mode but DATA-A does work. What's broken?

In reply to this post by ng7m

Max, all I've really used for RTTY has been FSK, using my MKII as the
interface. I'm sold on the fact that the signal is probably cleaner. With my
new KIO3B board I was hoping to get to a single-cable interface to greatly
simplify my setup. At least, I thought I remembered reading that this was
possible in Elecraft literature. I was really sick of the rats-nest of wires
behind my K3. While I love the K3, sometimes I wonder if a Flex would be
less hassle overall simply due to the simpler interface.

I'm skeptical anyone has made RTTY with without some kind of addition
interface beyond a simple USB cable since ASFK-A keying with VOX appears
broken. Other digital modes shouldn't be a problem since DATA-A works.

One of my friends, N7US, has been suggesting the MORTTY solution. Yet
another interface. Sheesh. Why can't it just be all built into the K3?
There's probably a good technical reason. I'm a EE who works on transmitters
professionally but don't know the nuances of USB interface. I guess it must
be hard to make it work. Or perhaps it's a limitation of how the K3/K3s is
architected.

It would be nice once the lockdown in CA is over, if one of the Elecraft
people could chime in on this.

BTW I'm about 1/2 thru your FSK video. Very informative. Thanks for putting
it together. If I get an MORTTY I'll be sure to watch your other video.

Joe N9OK

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n9ok

Re: K3 doesn't work in AFSK-A mode but DATA-A does work. What's broken?

In reply to this post by gt-i

Gernot, yes, I have selected that configuration.
73 Joe N9OK

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n9ok

Re: K3 doesn't work in AFSK-A mode but DATA-A does work. What's broken?

In reply to this post by Jim Rhodes-2

Jim, I'll be curious as to your results.
Joe N9OK

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n9ok

Re: K3 doesn't work in AFSK-A mode but DATA-A does work. What's broken?

In reply to this post by Wes Stewart-2

Wes, not sure why you are having success with this and I don't seem to. I'm
jealous. I'm not aware of any cockpit errors on this end. I was really
hoping there was, and that's one reason I reached out on the reflector. I've
made numerous cockpit errors which later were obvious to me once I was made
aware of them.

73 Joe N9OK

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n9ok

Re: K3 doesn't work in AFSK-A mode but DATA-A does work. What's broken?

This post was updated on .

In reply to this post by Joe N9OK

Thanks to all who've provided suggestions.

I've given up on making AFSK-A work with RTTY and am going back to FSK. It's
a more complex setup, but it works. The engineer part of me is pretty
irritated about this. I don't like giving up on problems. However, I think
I've done everything I can on this end and I have better things to do than
to stress about this.

73 Joe N9OK

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Jim Rhodes-2

Re: K3 doesn't work in AFSK-A mode but DATA-A does work. What's broken?

OK, I set things back up with AFSK for RTTY instead of FSK. My results were
the same as Joe's. If I set data mode to DATA A things work as expected
whether using VOX or my usual interface for PTT. However when I switch data
mode to AFSK and VOX on and hit the TX button nothing happens, if I plug in
the FSK interface just for PTT the K3 goes into transmit but there is no
output and no tones in the monitor. My only conclusion is that there is
some logic in the K3 or the new USB interface that is not routing the audio
properly in AFSK mode. This is apparently not the case with the K3S. So
Joe there is your answer. It is not your setup it is the radio. Maybe when
the K4 is all rolled out they can take a look at the firmware and come up
with a solution. My current FSK interface is 2 transistors and 2 resistors
in each of 2 db9s connected in parallel to the db15hd pins for PTT & FSK.
This allows for SO2V operation with minimal fuss. I have never owned a
commercial interface, so have no experience with them.

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 6:26 AM n9ok <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks to all who've provided suggestions.
>
> I've given up on making ASFK-A work with RTTY and am going back to FSK.
> It's
> a more complex setup, but it works. The engineer part of me is pretty
> irritated about this. I don't like giving up on problems. However, I think
> I've done everything I can on this end and I have better things to do than
> to stress about this.
>
> 73 Joe N9OK
>
>
>
> --
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n9ok

Re: K3 doesn't work in AFSK-A mode but DATA-A does work. What's broken?

Jim,

Thank you very much for confirming that what I see isn't due to a broken K3.

I agree that if firmware can fix this, it would be very nice. Elecraft had
this particular feature listed in the feature set for the upgrade, IIRC,
which is a large reason I splurged on the upgrade. I didn't want any more
external interface confusion.

On to configuring for FSK and perhaps playing in BARTG a little.

73 Joe N9OK

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Jim Rhodes-2

Re: K3 doesn't work in AFSK-A mode but DATA-A does work. What's broken?

I think it would be good to have. As would FSK via the USB. The AFSK works
in DATA A, so it should work in AFSK A. Has to be an unintentional glitch.

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 09:48 n9ok <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Jim,
>
> Thank you very much for confirming that what I see isn't due to a broken
> K3.
>
> I agree that if firmware can fix this, it would be very nice. Elecraft had
> this particular feature listed in the feature set for the upgrade, IIRC,
> which is a large reason I splurged on the upgrade. I didn't want any more
> external interface confusion.
>
> On to configuring for FSK and perhaps playing in BARTG a little.
>
> 73 Joe N9OK
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>