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K3 dumb Q about PPM, less dumb one about NB

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lstavenhagen

K3 dumb Q about PPM, less dumb one about NB

Hi all,

Just refreshing my 6th grade education here: 1 ppm variation at 10 mhz would be +/- 10 hz correct? I calibrated my K3 ref. osc. again yesterday (against 10mhz WWV) after a warmup of about an hour - this am I turned it on and checked it against 10mhz WWV and the display read about 6 or maybe 7 hz high (against my spot tone in CW mode).

I'm shocked, I tell you shocked... that this thing is off by 6hz when you first turn it on, what kind of operation is elecraft to let something like this through...... that'd be approx .6ppm drift right?

As for the noise blanker question, sorry if this is in the docs, but the NB on/off state doesn't save when you change bands (tho the settings of it are changed). It always turns off when changing bands. Is this configurable? (i.e. save on/off state of NM per band)?

No, I don' t need Wayne/Eric to change this if this is by design hi hi. Just curious (and again sorry if this is already in the documentation, which I'm still reading through).

Tnx es 73,
LS
W5QD

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 dumb Q about PPM, less dumb one about NB

LS,

Review all the menu options listed in the manual, and you should then
have a better understanding of the variety of ways the K3 can be set up
for your particular preferences.

In the case of your specific question, look at the CONFIG: NB SAVE menu
description.

73,
Don W3FPR

lstavenhagen wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Just refreshing my 6th grade education here: 1 ppm variation at 10 mhz would
> be +/- 10 hz correct? I calibrated my K3 ref. osc. again yesterday (against
> 10mhz WWV) after a warmup of about an hour - this am I turned it on and
> checked it against 10mhz WWV and the display read about 6 or maybe 7 hz high
> (against my spot tone in CW mode).
>
> I'm shocked, I tell you shocked... that this thing is off by 6hz when you
> first turn it on, what kind of operation is elecraft to let something like
> this through...... that'd be approx .6ppm drift right?
>
> As for the noise blanker question, sorry if this is in the docs, but the NB
> on/off state doesn't save when you change bands (tho the settings of it are
> changed). It always turns off when changing bands. Is this configurable?
> (i.e. save on/off state of NM per band)?
>
>

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Guy, K2AV

Re: K3 dumb Q about PPM, less dumb one about NB

In reply to this post by lstavenhagen

>From the Elecraft web page, K3 options:

" KTCXO3-1 TCXO 1ppm (0.5 ppm typ) High Stability Reference Oscillator"

Do you have the KTCXO3-1 option? If so, it's within spec. If you
don't have the KTCXO3 your K3 is within KTCXO3 spec without having to
buy the option.

In the good old days, if the equipment had to be within one Hz at
power up at 10 Mhz, it had crystal and oscillator ovens that ran 24/7.

Using the temperature correction matrix (individual data that comes
per KTCXO3) is in the firmware-to-do list. Posting the data to K3
stable memory is in the current K3 utility. I have my data taped in
my paper K3 manual, both having arrived here in the package for #1239.
Mine (with the KTCXO3) last time I checked moves 3 or 4 Hz depending
on how cold I let the shack get. When the firmware is in place it may
be possible to fiddle with the supplied TCX data and tune it pretty
tightly.

73, Guy.

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 10:12 AM, lstavenhagen <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi all,
>
> Just refreshing my 6th grade education here: 1 ppm variation at 10 mhz would
> be +/- 10 hz correct? I calibrated my K3 ref. osc. again yesterday (against
> 10mhz WWV) after a warmup of about an hour - this am I turned it on and
> checked it against 10mhz WWV and the display read about 6 or maybe 7 hz high
> (against my spot tone in CW mode).
>
> I'm shocked, I tell you shocked... that this thing is off by 6hz when you
> first turn it on, what kind of operation is elecraft to let something like
> this through...... that'd be approx .6ppm drift right?
>
> As for the noise blanker question, sorry if this is in the docs, but the NB
> on/off state doesn't save when you change bands (tho the settings of it are
> changed). It always turns off when changing bands. Is this configurable?
> (i.e. save on/off state of NM per band)?
>
> No, I don' t need Wayne/Eric to change this if this is by design hi hi. Just
> curious (and again sorry if this is already in the documentation, which I'm
> still reading through).
>
> Tnx es 73,
> LS
> W5QD
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-dumb-Q-about-PPM-less-dumb-one-about-NB-tp4837301p4837301.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
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lstavenhagen

Re: K3 dumb Q about PPM, less dumb one about NB

Hi Guy,

Yeah I bought the TCXO3 option with my kit. I've just been tracking the drift over the last day or so just out of curiosity to see how stable it is which is why I asked. I left my window open last night and my room cooled about 10 to 15 degs overnight. Sure enough, the osc. seemed to go low about 5hz. After 1/2 hour it had drifted back up about 2 or 3 hz.

Indeed astounding stability, tho how useful it actually is I don't really know. I don't think even the digital modes care about variations that small. My K2 probably drifts about 20 to 30hz from start to warmup and even then it settles down in 15-20 mins. After that it's a rock compared to what I'm used to from the old days (where you get that kind of drift during the CQ DX alone hi hi).

I haven't entered my temp correction data since it's not enabled in the FW yet. I'm keeping my sheet tho of course. It'd be neat to see how much more stable it'll be once that is implemented.

73,
LS
W5QD

lstavenhagen

Re: K3 dumb Q about PPM, less dumb one about NB

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Ok thanks Don. As usual, you're right - the NB SAVE option does just what I was wondering about with the NB.

I also had the no-audio thing yesterday when I first plugged in my hand mic from Elecraft. Until I read the instructions that came with the mic to enable the bias for it, I'd thought I'd finally found something wrong with my K3. But no dice, everything is still working the way it should.

I just can't seem to create problems with my elecraft rigs, I don't understand it even with two left thumbs and a 6th grade education. Well that's not true, I can, but.....

And like I said, I thought my K2 had great selectivity and dynamic range. The K3's filters are just like brick wall for signals outside the passband....

73,
LS
W5QD

George Thornton

Re: K3 dumb Q about PPM, less dumb one about NB

I too want to express my strong irritation with Elecraft that I am not
able to create problems with my K3.

I really want to blame them. But every time I think I have something on
them it turns out I did not follow directions properly or I have
something installed wrong.

And they are so gracious about it all. Makes me mad.

I need to go to Radio Shack or Fry's and seek advice from the wonderful
help staff.

George AE7G

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of lstavenhagen
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 1:58 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 dumb Q about PPM, less dumb one about NB

Ok thanks Don. As usual, you're right - the NB SAVE option does just
what I
was wondering about with the NB.

I also had the no-audio thing yesterday when I first plugged in my hand
mic
from Elecraft. Until I read the instructions that came with the mic to
enable the bias for it, I'd thought I'd finally found something wrong
with
my K3. But no dice, everything is still working the way it should.

I just can't seem to create problems with my elecraft rigs, I don't
understand it even with two left thumbs and a 6th grade education. Well
that's not true, I can, but.....

And like I said, I thought my K2 had great selectivity and dynamic
range.
The K3's filters are just like brick wall for signals outside the
passband....

73,
LS
W5QD
--
View this message in context:
http://n2.nabble.com/K3-dumb-Q-about-PPM-less-dumb-one-about-NB-tp483730
1p4839606.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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David Woolley (E.L)

Re: K3 dumb Q about PPM, less dumb one about NB

In reply to this post by lstavenhagen

1ppm relative to 10mHz is 10nHz (unless you are a PC salesman). There
are aspects of amateur radio in which mHz are a useful unit.

lstavenhagen wrote:
>
> Just refreshing my 6th grade education here: 1 ppm variation at 10 mhz would
> be +/- 10 hz correct? I calibrated my K3 ref. osc. again yesterday (against

--
David Woolley
Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want.
RFC1855 says there should be an address here, but, in a world of spam,
that is no longer good advice, as archive address hiding may not work.
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Jim Wiley-2

Re: K3 dumb Q about PPM, less dumb one about NB

I suspect the original writer is being confused with the correct
designation of the units involved in the query. One PPM is equivalent
to 1 hertz per megahertz. Stability specifications for amateur radio
equipment are frequently stated in reference to 1 megahertz. In such a
case, 1 PPM at 10 MHz works out to 10 hertz.

The units described in the original question are stated as mHz,
(millihertz), or 1/1000 of a hertz. Megahertz, or 1 million hertz, is
more correctly annotated as MHz. A value stated in millihertz is
uncommon in amateur radio circles. It is perfectly true that a
millihertz is a valid unit, it's just not often seen. And, as far as I
know, has never been used, either in an advertisement or a user manual,
to express the basic frequency stability of a piece of ham gear.

- Jim, KL7CC

David Woolley wrote:

> 1ppm relative to 10mHz is 10nHz (unless you are a PC salesman). There
> are aspects of amateur radio in which mHz are a useful unit.
>
> lstavenhagen wrote:
>
>> Just refreshing my 6th grade education here: 1 ppm variation at 10 mhz would
>> be +/- 10 hz correct? I calibrated my K3 ref. osc. again yesterday (against
>>
>
>
>
>

Garry Shapiro

Re: K3 dumb Q about PPM, less dumb one about NB

In reply to this post by David Woolley (E.L)

I think you are commenting on the widespread, confusing use of "mHz"
which literally means milli-Hz. How this "unit" came to substitute for
MHz is a mystery to me. As an engineer, I tried to use what I was
taught--lower-case multipliers are <1 and upper-case multipliers are >1.
"K" and "k" appear to have gone the same route as "M" and "m". I don't
know why or when these changed--probably when I was not looking.

Garry, NI6T

On 4/2/2010 2:45 AM, David Woolley wrote:

Garry Shapiro

Re: K3 dumb Q about PPM, less dumb one about NB

In reply to this post by Jim Wiley-2

mHz may or may not be widely used in ham radio, but it is widely used
everywhere else and, IMHO, incorrectly. At least one place in my ham
life where it is used is in the Low Band Monitor published by K0CS.

Garry, NI6T

On 4/2/2010 3:53 AM, Jim Wiley wrote:

>
> I suspect the original writer is being confused with the correct
> designation of the units involved in the query. One PPM is equivalent
> to 1 hertz per megahertz. Stability specifications for amateur radio
> equipment are frequently stated in reference to 1 megahertz. In such a
> case, 1 PPM at 10 MHz works out to 10 hertz.
>
>
> The units described in the original question are stated as mHz,
> (millihertz), or 1/1000 of a hertz. Megahertz, or 1 million hertz, is
> more correctly annotated as MHz. A value stated in millihertz is
> uncommon in amateur radio circles. It is perfectly true that a
> millihertz is a valid unit, it's just not often seen. And, as far as I
> know, has never been used, either in an advertisement or a user manual,
> to express the basic frequency stability of a piece of ham gear.
>
>
> - Jim, KL7CC
>
>
> David Woolley wrote:
>
>> 1ppm relative to 10mHz is 10nHz (unless you are a PC salesman). There
>> are aspects of amateur radio in which mHz are a useful unit.
>>
>> lstavenhagen wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Just refreshing my 6th grade education here: 1 ppm variation at 10 mhz would
>>> be +/- 10 hz correct? I calibrated my K3 ref. osc. again yesterday (against
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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>

w8fn

Re: K3 dumb Q about PPM, less dumb one about NB

In reply to this post by Garry Shapiro

>As an engineer, I tried to use what I was
>taught--lower-case multipliers are <1 and upper-case multipliers are >1.
>"K" and "k" appear to have gone the same route as "M" and "m". I don't
>know why or when these changed--probably when I was not looking.

Trivia time. Per the International System of Units (SI), the prefixes
for multiples of 10 (deca-), 100 (hecto-) and 1000 (kilo-) take lower
case. All others are upper case. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_System_of_Units

73...
Randy, W8FN

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Phil Hystad-3

Re: K3 dumb Q about PPM, less dumb one about NB

I think an easier way to remember is that starting from the very small of the prefixes up through kilo, they are all lower case. Then, beginning with Mega and all those that are larger are upper case. Thus, Mega begins the upper case range, everything else below is lower case. But, I totally ignore these when it comes to kHz --- I like the look of KHz better then kHz so will will write KHz down whenever I am writing kilo-Hertz.

73,
phil, K7PEH

On Apr 2, 2010, at 2:49 PM, Randy Farmer wrote:

>
>> As an engineer, I tried to use what I was
>> taught--lower-case multipliers are <1 and upper-case multipliers are >1.
>> "K" and "k" appear to have gone the same route as "M" and "m". I don't
>> know why or when these changed--probably when I was not looking.
>
> Trivia time. Per the International System of Units (SI), the prefixes
> for multiples of 10 (deca-), 100 (hecto-) and 1000 (kilo-) take lower
> case. All others are upper case. See:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_System_of_Units
>
> 73...
> Randy, W8FN
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 dumb Q about PPM, less dumb one about NB

Phil,

It is all about being un-ambiguous IMHO. M = Mega, m = milli. Others
which require careful use so as not to confuse are "da" = deca. "d" =
deci, P = peta while p = pico. Z = zeta, z = zepto; Y = yolta and y =
yocto. See the SI standard - yes the chart I am looking at uses
uppercase for Mega and greater.

73,
Don W3FPR

Phil Hystad wrote:
> I think an easier way to remember is that starting from the very small of the prefixes up through kilo, they are all lower case. Then, beginning with Mega and all those that are larger are upper case. Thus, Mega begins the upper case range, everything else below is lower case. But, I totally ignore these when it comes to kHz --- I like the look of KHz better then kHz so will will write KHz down whenever I am writing kilo-Hertz.
>
> 73,
> phil, K7PEH
>
>
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Garry Shapiro

Re: K3 dumb Q about PPM, less dumb one about NB

In reply to this post by w8fn

True enough--and thank you and W7AY for pointing that out--but there is
no justification I can see for "mhz", which breaks not only the standard
you reference, but also the convention for capitalizing proper names,
such as Hertz--and Ampere, Ohm, Tesla, Oersted, Siemens, Henry, Farad, etc.

There is plenty of trivia on this site, as on most, but for technical
folks, units are hardly trivial.

Garry, NI6T

On 4/2/2010 2:49 PM, Randy Farmer wrote:

>
>> As an engineer, I tried to use what I was
>> taught--lower-case multipliers are<1 and upper-case multipliers are>1.
>> "K" and "k" appear to have gone the same route as "M" and "m". I don't
>> know why or when these changed--probably when I was not looking.
>>
> Trivia time. Per the International System of Units (SI), the prefixes
> for multiples of 10 (deca-), 100 (hecto-) and 1000 (kilo-) take lower
> case. All others are upper case. See:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_System_of_Units
>
> 73...
> Randy, W8FN
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: K3 dumb Q about PPM [END of Thread]

Administrator

In the interest of limiting the overall list noise level, lets table the
mhz discussion for now.

73, Eric WA6HHQ
Elecraft List Moderator
====

On 4/2/2010 5:09 PM, Garry Shapiro wrote:
> True enough--and thank you and W7AY for pointing that out--but there is
> no justification I can see for "mhz",
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