[K3} fatiguing auido, high noise environment

[Mike Scott-7]

I have been realizing over time that my QTH/antenna is high noise even though I have underground utilities. I have been one of the complainers about the startup blast of noise when the rig is first turned on. I now know that my normal S-7 band noise is the underlying problem and when the K3 turns on I get a +30dB blast of noise that is just shocking. That blast will go away soon in a new firmware release. But the problem of high noise remains.

 

So what to do? I hate narrow bandwidth filters because they sound like a hurricane whistling in a cave. Anything less than 1 KHz sounds terrible to my ears. I think many of you cannot understand this but until now I thought the K3 had terrible audio. I have been seeing many of you operate with 200 Hz or so filters and I just shudder at the thought. The narrower the filter the worse the audio. If you put a noise generator into your K3 and listened to the hollow sound with narrow filters you might begin to understand my problem.

 

I use an inverted V on 40M, center up 35 feet. Okay this is a cloud burner and maybe this is my real problem.  I do see seasonable and daily variations in background noise so my background noise is not 100% local. I have seen S3 on 40M on occasion, usually early morning or night as we head into winter. My S-Meter has been calibrated.

 

I know that people use separate antennas on the low bands because of noise. Is there a suggestion for a really low noise antenna on 40M? I need a drastic reduction or I need to move. My audio is quite fatiguing and it has been quite a problem to operate CW if I need narrow filters to discriminate. When I can copy at 1 KHz or broader, life is good. I operate on phone when the SNR is good, if not I just don’t operate.

 

Mike Scott

AE6WA Tarzana, CA

K3/100 SN508

 

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[Hank Garretson]

Try playing with RX-EQ.  In my case, I set PITCH to 800 Hz and RX-EQ
800 Hz to +16 db.  All other RX-EQ bands are set to -16 dB.  For me
this makes listening much less fatiguing.  Be aware that if you
narrow the DSP to something like 100 Hz, then this scheme won't work
for reasons someone else can explain.  I never go narrower than 200
Hz and am delighted with the results.  Good luck.


73,

Hank, W6SX

Mammoth Lakes, California

Elevation 8083 feet in John Muir's Range of Light

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[N5GE]

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 20:00:47 -0800, you wrote:

In line below:

>I have been realizing over time that my QTH/antenna is high noise even
>though I have underground utilities. I have been one of the complainers
>about the startup blast of noise when the rig is first turned on. I now know
>that my normal S-7 band noise is the underlying problem and when the K3
>turns on I get a +30dB blast of noise that is just shocking. That blast will
>go away soon in a new firmware release. But the problem of high noise
>remains.
>
>
>
>So what to do? I hate narrow bandwidth filters because they sound like a
>hurricane whistling in a cave. Anything less than 1 KHz sounds terrible to
>my ears. I think many of you cannot understand this but until now I thought
>the K3 had terrible audio. I have been seeing many of you operate with 200
>Hz or so filters and I just shudder at the thought. The narrower the filter
>the worse the audio. If you put a noise generator into your K3 and listened
>to the hollow sound with narrow filters you might begin to understand my
>problem.

What happens when you use the DSP to narrow the passband on CW?  Do you still
get the sound you described?  If you don't, you won't with the narrow filters
either.

From what you describe it sounds like you've had a bad experience with "ringing"
narrow filters.  I have the 400Hz and 250 Hz filters and they don't ring.  Many
other mfr's rigs have narrow filters that ring.  My K3 does not, even when the
DSP is set to 50Hz on CW.

If you have a friend with a K3 and narrow filters, listen to his K3 and see if
you hear what you are thinking you will hear with narrow filters.
 
>
>
>
>I use an inverted V on 40M, center up 35 feet. Okay this is a cloud burner
>and maybe this is my real problem.  I do see seasonable and daily variations
>in background noise so my background noise is not 100% local. I have seen S3
>on 40M on occasion, usually early morning or night as we head into winter.
>My S-Meter has been calibrated.

Background noise is not just caused by electric lines on poles.  You are
fortunate to have buried power lines.  I am not that lucky, but on the other
hand I very rarely have that sort of noise here in the residential neighborhood
I live in.  Your neighbors may have all kinds of devices causing the noise you
hear, or it may be just plain ole' atmospheric noise, but I doubt it.

Electrical interference can be radiated for a long way.  I once complained to my
electrical provider about high noise.  They found the noisy insulator 2 miles
away.

>
>
>
>I know that people use separate antennas on the low bands because of noise.
>Is there a suggestion for a really low noise antenna on 40M? I need a
>drastic reduction or I need to move. My audio is quite fatiguing and it has
>been quite a problem to operate CW if I need narrow filters to discriminate.
>When I can copy at 1 KHz or broader, life is good. I operate on phone when
>the SNR is good, if not I just don't operate.

There have been a couple of interesting discussions here on the reflector about
low noise RECEIVE antennas lately.  Some of which have been laid right on the
ground.

If you have the Sub RX for the K3 or the KXV3 accessory you can TX on one
antenna and RX on another.  If you have either of these accessories try just
laying 100 feet or so of insulated wire on the ground and see if that helps. The
antenna on the ground will not have high S-Meter readings like the inverted vee,
but you may find that signals you weren't hearing before are now there.  

Personally, I don't care much about the strength of the RX signals if I'm
copying them better on my 280 foot loop that is about an average of 15 feet
above ground on poles around the back yard.  You might try a 40m full loop, but
I'd try the wire on the ground first.

>
>
>
>Mike Scott
>
>AE6WA Tarzana, CA
>
>K3/100 SN508
>
>

Tom Hinson Childers, N5GE

K3/100 #806, XV144, XV432
Mini-Modules

http://www.eQSL.cc/Member.cfm?N5GE 
http://www.n5ge.com
http://www.swotrc.net


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[Ken Kopp-3]

I have -no- filter "ringing" here at any bandwidth.
K3 S/N 56 with latest download.

73! Ken Kopp - K0PP
     [hidden email]

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[GM0ELP]

I have found that having roofing filters automatically track the DSP filter width is a bad idea in a noisy environment. My noise was best tackled with the DSP NB rather than the hardware NB (ie. DSP NB 3-7, IF OFF).

The DSP NB still worked with a 1KHz roofing filter in line, but if a narrower roofing filter was selected (400Hz) as a result of reducing the DSP filter width, the DSP NB action vanished, and I was left with the same horrible audio as you are describing.

I don't understand the full picture yet, but, DSP NB and NR need a wide roofing filter width (>= 1KHz) to work effectively. However, any narrow DSP filter width (as long as a wide roofing filter was selected) would still still allow DSP NB and NR to work effectively (ie. roofing filter 1KHz, dsp filter 200Hz). The automatic selection of roofing filters makes this combination and many others impossible to select (e.g. if you have a 400Hz roofing filter installed) without messing about with the Elecraft Utility software and disabling filters.

My previous post suggested having a menu item that would allow the automatic/manual selection of roofing filters (defaulted to Automatic) to allow for better handling of selectivity in noisy situations.

Doug GM0ELP

[K7TV]

Doug,

I find the DSP NR to be quite effective even with a 200 Hz roof and
100 Hz DSP. No specific experience with impulse noise and NR only (if I have
impulse noise, I turn on the NB).
Running 2.67 with default AGC settings.

That said, I agree that it is useful to be able to change roofing filter
without having the DSP width follow.
The K3 utility is a clumsy way to do it. I would rather have the XFIL button
not affect DSP width.

73,
Erik K7TV

----- Original Message -----
From: "GM0ELP" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 5:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3} fatiguing auido, high noise environment

>
> I have found that having roofing filters automatically track the DSP
> filter
> width is a bad idea in a noisy environment. My noise was best tackled with
> the DSP NB rather than the hardware NB (ie. DSP NB 3-7, IF OFF).
>
> The DSP NB still worked with a 1KHz roofing filter in line, but if a
> narrower roofing filter was selected (400Hz) as a result of reducing the
> DSP
> filter width, the DSP NB action vanished, and I was left with the same
> horrible audio as you are describing.
>
> I don't understand the full picture yet, but, DSP NB and NR need a wide
> roofing filter width (>= 1KHz) to work effectively. However, any narrow
> DSP
> filter width (as long as a wide roofing filter was selected) would still
> still allow DSP NB and NR to work effectively (ie. roofing filter 1KHz,
> dsp
> filter 200Hz). The automatic selection of roofing filters makes this
> combination and many others impossible to select (e.g. if you have a 400Hz
> roofing filter installed) without messing about with the Elecraft Utility
> software and disabling filters.
>
> My previous post suggested having a menu item that would allow the
> automatic/manual selection of roofing filters (defaulted to Automatic) to
> allow for better handling of selectivity in noisy situations.
>
> Doug GM0ELP
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://n2.nabble.com/-K3%7D-fatiguing-auido%2C-high-noise-environment-tp1650872p1651490.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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[Alexandr Kobranov]

It seems to be nice future option to have roofing filters switched
only by XFIL button and DSP control by WIDTH only - both independent
for such experimental usage...
:-)
73!
Lexa, OK1DST
K3/10 #727


Erik N Basilier napsal(a):

> Doug,
>
> I find the DSP NR to be quite effective even with a 200 Hz roof and
> 100 Hz DSP. No specific experience with impulse noise and NR only (if I
> have impulse noise, I turn on the NB).
> Running 2.67 with default AGC settings.
>
> That said, I agree that it is useful to be able to change roofing filter
> without having the DSP width follow.
> The K3 utility is a clumsy way to do it. I would rather have the XFIL
> button not affect DSP width.
>
> 73,
> Erik K7TV
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "GM0ELP" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 5:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3} fatiguing auido, high noise environment
>
>
>>
>> I have found that having roofing filters automatically track the DSP
>> filter
>> width is a bad idea in a noisy environment. My noise was best tackled
>> with
>> the DSP NB rather than the hardware NB (ie. DSP NB 3-7, IF OFF).
>>
>> The DSP NB still worked with a 1KHz roofing filter in line, but if a
>> narrower roofing filter was selected (400Hz) as a result of reducing
>> the DSP
>> filter width, the DSP NB action vanished, and I was left with the same
>> horrible audio as you are describing.
>>
>> I don't understand the full picture yet, but, DSP NB and NR need a wide
>> roofing filter width (>= 1KHz) to work effectively. However, any
>> narrow DSP
>> filter width (as long as a wide roofing filter was selected) would still
>> still allow DSP NB and NR to work effectively (ie. roofing filter
>> 1KHz, dsp
>> filter 200Hz). The automatic selection of roofing filters makes this
>> combination and many others impossible to select (e.g. if you have a
>> 400Hz
>> roofing filter installed) without messing about with the Elecraft Utility
>> software and disabling filters.
>>
>> My previous post suggested having a menu item that would allow the
>> automatic/manual selection of roofing filters (defaulted to Automatic) to
>> allow for better handling of selectivity in noisy situations.
>>
>> Doug GM0ELP
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://n2.nabble.com/-K3%7D-fatiguing-auido%2C-high-noise-environment-tp1650872p1651490.html 
>>
>> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Post to: [hidden email]
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>>
>
>
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[Bill Johnson-9]

I am sure there are more replies since your post, but I tried some different
settings based on your email and am impressed with how much customization I
can get with the options available.  I need more practice!


73,

Bill
K9YEQ
K2 #35; KX1 #35; K3 #1744; mini mods
-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of GM0ELP
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 6:03 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3} fatiguing auido, high noise environment


I have found that having roofing filters automatically track the DSP filter
width is a bad idea in a noisy environment. My noise was best tackled with
the DSP NB rather than the hardware NB (ie. DSP NB 3-7, IF OFF).
.................

Doug GM0ELP

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[Leigh L. Klotz Jr WA5ZNU]

Or possibly there could be an NR option to have it switch to a wider
xtal filter when NR is on, if this turns out to be valuable.
Then the wider xtal filter wouldn't be used unless needed.
Leigh/WA5ZNU

> It seems to be nice future option to have roofing filters switched
> only by XFIL button and DSP control by WIDTH only - both independent
> for such experimental usage...
> :-)
> 73!
> Lexa, OK1DST
> K3/10 #727
>
>
> Erik N Basilier napsal(a):
>> Doug,
>>
>> I find the DSP NR to be quite effective even with a 200 Hz roof and
>> 100 Hz DSP. No specific experience with impulse noise and NR only (if
>> I have impulse noise, I turn on the NB).
>> Running 2.67 with default AGC settings.
>>
>> That said, I agree that it is useful to be able to change roofing
>> filter without having the DSP width follow.
>> The K3 utility is a clumsy way to do it. I would rather have the XFIL
>> button not affect DSP width.
>>
>> 73,
>> Erik K7TV
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "GM0ELP" <[hidden email]>
>> To: <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 5:02 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3} fatiguing auido, high noise environment
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I have found that having roofing filters automatically track the DSP
>>> filter
>>> width is a bad idea in a noisy environment. My noise was best
>>> tackled with
>>> the DSP NB rather than the hardware NB (ie. DSP NB 3-7, IF OFF).
>>>
>>> The DSP NB still worked with a 1KHz roofing filter in line, but if a
>>> narrower roofing filter was selected (400Hz) as a result of reducing
>>> the DSP
>>> filter width, the DSP NB action vanished, and I was left with the same
>>> horrible audio as you are describing.
>>>
>>> I don't understand the full picture yet, but, DSP NB and NR need a wide
>>> roofing filter width (>= 1KHz) to work effectively. However, any
>>> narrow DSP
>>> filter width (as long as a wide roofing filter was selected) would
>>> still
>>> still allow DSP NB and NR to work effectively (ie. roofing filter
>>> 1KHz, dsp
>>> filter 200Hz). The automatic selection of roofing filters makes this
>>> combination and many others impossible to select (e.g. if you have a
>>> 400Hz
>>> roofing filter installed) without messing about with the Elecraft
>>> Utility
>>> software and disabling filters.
>>>
>>> My previous post suggested having a menu item that would allow the
>>> automatic/manual selection of roofing filters (defaulted to
>>> Automatic) to
>>> allow for better handling of selectivity in noisy situations.
>>>
>>> Doug GM0ELP
>>>
>>> --
>>>
> ://www.elecraft.com

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