K3 feature request - I want Ducking!
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Re: K3 feature request - I want Ducking!
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Ron,
I too am a firm believer in the KISS principle. Too much automation drives me crazy trying to remember what the automation is trying to do for me. Oft times the automation does not do what I want to be done. "manual controls forever". This is not a vote against automation and ease of use, but there are times when it is more effective to bypass the automatic controls, engage the brain, and get what one wants accomplished. Automation cannot substitute for individual preferences - that takes 'brain power' - so THINK! 73, Don W3FPR Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > That is an interesting idea Keith. I've been reducing the gain by hand > whenever the band noise is objectionable while sending. Been doing that > since I was using a regenerative receiver back in the early 1950's. > > But I also grabbed the gain control on the board at KVCR when I was spinning > platters (the real VINYL platters) when I wanted to talk over the music back > in the 50's too. > > So I guess it's a good idea whose time has come, just like people on the > board don't need to play with the gain control any longer. > > But I wonder just how automatic our world is becoming? > > A popular theme in sci fi fiction back in the 50's was that the human race > would so completely automate things that the "computers" would see to our > physical needs and we'd become disembodied beings floating in an energy > field because we no longer needed bodies to manipulate anything ourselves - > until the computers decided they didn't need us any longer. > > Guess I'm archaic. I still enjoy running on the beach, sketching a scene > with an old pencil and paper, wiggling my own CW key or turning my own gain > controls. > > I'm definitely one of the ones who is now obsolete I guess... But happily > obsolete :-) > > Ron AC7AC > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > No, the manual way to achieve this effect is to turn down the AF gain > while you're transmitting. Sidetone is still there nice & loud but the > RX audio that you hear between elements is reduced. When you're done > sending, you reach for the AF gain and turn it back up to the normal > listening level. > > Now, imagine it was automatic. As soon as you send, the K3 turns AF > gain down and leaves it down until a second or so after you finish > sending, then it turns it back up to where it was. This way, while > you're sending, the AF signal that you hear between dots & dashes is > quieter than when you're just listening. > > Is that any clearer? If not, ask more questions :-) > > - Keith N1AS - > - K3 711 - > > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.10/1904 - Release Date: 1/20/2009 7:49 AM > > Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Don Wilhelm wrote:
> Ron, > > I too am a firm believer in the KISS principle. > Too much automation drives me crazy trying to remember what the > automation is trying to do for me. Oft times the automation does not do > what I want to be done. "manual controls forever". > > This is not a vote against automation and ease of use, but there are > times when it is more effective to bypass the automatic controls, engage > the brain, and get what one wants accomplished. Automation cannot > substitute for individual preferences - that takes 'brain power' - so THINK! > > 73, > Don W3FPR It seems to me with all the feature requests people are looking for a custom radio and wanting the rig to do everything for them. The QSK on the Elecraft rigs is very good the way it is. If you don't want to hear the band between characters why are you working QSK? Why request a "feature" that could cause serious problems down the road. I guarantee as soon as this change makes it out into firmware the list will be bombarded with posts like "Help, my QSK doesn't work anymore", or "I want to be able to set the level of "ducking" manually, .25dB steps would be fine thank you", etc, etc, etc.... *The more complicated something is to operate the easier it is to screwup, badly.* Name one other HF rig, any price point, which does "ducking" while in QSK. If you can your probably just used to their lousy implementation of QSK. How about if we have the Elecraft rigs turn the coffee pot on while we're showering in the morning? It's just an extra relay and a small change in the firmware. _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: K3 feature request - I want Ducking!
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In reply to this post by AC7AC
You know Ron, it is actually ironic. I too have been reducing AF gain
on my rigs for years but I find I do it more now than I used to and I think I know why. A few years ago I all but abandoned the keyer in favor of the straight key and bug. I'm back to manually generating CW and this manual generation of CW requires more of my brain. I need to hear my sidetone more than I used to. I need to clearly hear so I know when to end a dot or how long the dashes are supposed to be or when to do the next dot or dash. Some day when I'm no longer a beginner on the bug, I may not be so dependent on the sidetone, but for now I need to hear it clearly above the RX output or I'll mess up my sending. So ironically my desire for automation in the form of ducking is driven by my return to manual CW. - Keith N1AS - - SKCC 344c - -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 feature request - I want Ducking! So I guess it's a good idea whose time has come, just like people on the board don't need to play with the gain control any longer. But I wonder just how automatic our world is becoming? _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: K3 feature request - I want Ducking!
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In reply to this post by ac0h
> It seems to me with all the feature requests people are looking > for a custom radio and wanting the rig to do everything for them. > ... If you don't want to hear the band between characters why are > you working QSK? Why request a "feature" that could cause serious > problems down the road. So, Kevin, I take it your against the idea? :-) > Name one other HF rig, any price point, which does "ducking" while in QSK. I think there are none, which would give Elecraft a differentiator in the market. Adjustable Soft QSK, only from Elecraft! > How about if we have the Elecraft rigs turn the coffee pot on > while we're showering in the morning? Or we could have them digitally record our voices, scan the band for us, switch from RX to TX between code elements, decode received and transmitted CW, auto tune our antennas or even auto zero-beat a CW signal. - Keith N1AS - - K3 711 - _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith
Isn't this just a matter of setting the monitor sidetone as loud as the AF
audio from the signals you are listening to? The MON control is on the front panel, just for that reason. Sounds like everyone is asking Wayne to automatically reduce the audio to whatever MON is set to. Why not just use the knob and increase the MON until you hear it clearly? It only gets used when you are transmitting. Then just use the AF control to set BOTH of them to an overall comfortable level. You only have to do that once. 73, Guy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darwin, Keith" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]> Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:07 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 feature request - I want Ducking! > You know Ron, it is actually ironic. I too have been reducing AF gain > on my rigs for years but I find I do it more now than I used to and I > think I know why. > > A few years ago I all but abandoned the keyer in favor of the straight > key and bug. I'm back to manually generating CW and this manual > generation of CW requires more of my brain. I need to hear my sidetone > more than I used to. I need to clearly hear so I know when to end a dot > or how long the dashes are supposed to be or when to do the next dot or > dash. Some day when I'm no longer a beginner on the bug, I may not be > so dependent on the sidetone, but for now I need to hear it clearly > above the RX output or I'll mess up my sending. > > So ironically my desire for automation in the form of ducking is driven > by my return to manual CW. > > - Keith N1AS - > - SKCC 344c - > > -----Original Message----- > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 feature request - I want Ducking! > > > So I guess it's a good idea whose time has come, just like people on the > board don't need to play with the gain control any longer. > > But I wonder just how automatic our world is becoming? > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by ac0h
I believe that most people using QSK are trying to simulate full duplex.
I think the step function up and down RX signal level proposed here would sound awful when being keyed. The brain has enough to do without having to accommodate this level change too. Manually turning down the volume is not a good simulation of this step function change.. If this is done, it needs to be run by some testers to see just how bad the level change sounds at various speeds. I doubt anybody would like it. This change would be absolutely useless to me since the main use for QSK is in breaking pileups for the weak ones. It would render the weak ones unreadable. If one wants to fool around with AF gain compensation, I'd like to propose bumping up the AF gain 3db when the subrx is selected and the main/sub rx antenna is shared. That is a real pain. 73 de Brian/K3KO Kevin wrote: >Don Wilhelm wrote: > > >>Ron, >> >>I too am a firm believer in the KISS principle. >>Too much automation drives me crazy trying to remember what the >>automation is trying to do for me. Oft times the automation does not do >>what I want to be done. "manual controls forever". >> >>This is not a vote against automation and ease of use, but there are >>times when it is more effective to bypass the automatic controls, engage >>the brain, and get what one wants accomplished. Automation cannot >>substitute for individual preferences - that takes 'brain power' - so THINK! >> >>73, >>Don W3FPR >> >> > >It seems to me with all the feature requests people are looking for a >custom radio and wanting the rig to do everything for them. The QSK on >the Elecraft rigs is very good the way it is. If you don't want to hear >the band between characters why are you working QSK? Why request a >"feature" that could cause serious problems down the road. I guarantee >as soon as this change makes it out into firmware the list will be >bombarded with posts like "Help, my QSK doesn't work anymore", or "I >want to be able to set the level of "ducking" manually, .25dB steps >would be fine thank you", etc, etc, etc.... *The more complicated >something is to operate the easier it is to screwup, badly.* > >Name one other HF rig, any price point, which does "ducking" while in >QSK. If you can your probably just used to their lousy implementation of >QSK. > >How about if we have the Elecraft rigs turn the coffee pot on while >we're showering in the morning? >It's just an extra relay and a small change in the firmware. >_______________________________________________ >Elecraft mailing list >Post to: [hidden email] >You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > >Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: K3 feature request - I want Ducking!
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In reply to this post by Guy, K2AV
-----Original Message----- Isn't this just a matter of setting the monitor sidetone as loud as the AF audio from the signals you are listening to? The MON control is on the front panel, just for that reason. 73, Guy. -------------------------- I have MON set to match the AF RX level. That way, when I hit the spot button I hear the sidetone and RX signal at the same levels and can easily tune the signal in. MON = RX level works great during receive. During transmit, I want MON to be louder than the RX AF level. Either MON has to come up or AF has to go down. Turning MON up for TX and back down for RX would be more of a pain that just spinning the AF knob. If I do set MON to be louder than the RX AF level, then the sidetone monitor is too loud for comfort. The bottom line is that I want two different mixes of MON plus AF level, one for RX and one for TX. Good question - Thanks! 73 - Keith N1AS - - K3 711 - _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by alsopb
I have to vote with Brian for contest operation.
I have a couple threads going on this off the reflector. One thing that may be causing some of the problem re hearing the MON on CW, is that MON does not go up and down with the AF volumn control. I believe some of the hearability issues may vanish if the MON setting established a *RATIO* with the AF control, rather than a constant level into the speaker. This would make the ratio of MON to RX audio independent of the RX gain control of the moment. As it is MON will likely be set below a "quiet room" "irritation" level (it does not combine with the received audio when set) which will be a lower level than probably needed because it is heard by itself. Then when time-blended with QSK receive it seems weaker. Should point out to K3 users that (at least with 2.78) if you enable MON and then hit the key, the MON control will be operative while transmitting and one can set the level to match the audio, at least as long as you leave the AF at the same setting. 73, Guy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Alsop" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]> Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:54 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 feature request - I want Ducking! >I believe that most people using QSK are trying to simulate full duplex. > > I think the step function up and down RX signal level proposed here > would sound awful when being keyed. > The brain has enough to do without having to accommodate this level > change too. Manually turning down the volume is not a good simulation > of this step function change.. > > If this is done, it needs to be run by some testers to see just how > bad the level change sounds at various speeds. > I doubt anybody would like it. > > This change would be absolutely useless to me since the main use for QSK > is in breaking pileups for the weak ones. > It would render the weak ones unreadable. > > If one wants to fool around with AF gain compensation, I'd like to > propose bumping up the AF gain 3db when the subrx is selected and the > main/sub rx antenna is shared. That is a real pain. > > 73 de Brian/K3KO > > Kevin wrote: > >>Don Wilhelm wrote: >> >> >>>Ron, >>> >>>I too am a firm believer in the KISS principle. >>>Too much automation drives me crazy trying to remember what the >>>automation is trying to do for me. Oft times the automation does not do >>>what I want to be done. "manual controls forever". >>> >>>This is not a vote against automation and ease of use, but there are >>>times when it is more effective to bypass the automatic controls, engage >>>the brain, and get what one wants accomplished. Automation cannot >>>substitute for individual preferences - that takes 'brain power' - so >>>THINK! >>> >>>73, >>>Don W3FPR >>> >>> >> >>It seems to me with all the feature requests people are looking for a >>custom radio and wanting the rig to do everything for them. The QSK on >>the Elecraft rigs is very good the way it is. If you don't want to hear >>the band between characters why are you working QSK? Why request a >>"feature" that could cause serious problems down the road. I guarantee >>as soon as this change makes it out into firmware the list will be >>bombarded with posts like "Help, my QSK doesn't work anymore", or "I >>want to be able to set the level of "ducking" manually, .25dB steps >>would be fine thank you", etc, etc, etc.... *The more complicated >>something is to operate the easier it is to screwup, badly.* >> >>Name one other HF rig, any price point, which does "ducking" while in >>QSK. If you can your probably just used to their lousy implementation of >>QSK. >> >>How about if we have the Elecraft rigs turn the coffee pot on while >>we're showering in the morning? >>It's just an extra relay and a small change in the firmware. >>_______________________________________________ >>Elecraft mailing list >>Post to: [hidden email] >>You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >>Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): >> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> >>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >>Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: K3 feature request - I want Ducking!
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In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith
I've always advocated having sidetone and SPOT levels be independently
adjustable - I sidestep the issue by using CWT rather than SPOT to zero beat a received signal (either auto or manual mode). I then keep MON set for my preferred sidetone level (relatively high, I also use a bug). Bob NW8L On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Darwin, Keith <[hidden email]> wrote: > During transmit, I want MON to be louder than the RX AF level. Either > MON has to come up or AF has to go down. Turning MON up for TX and back > down for RX would be more of a pain that just spinning the AF knob. If > I do set MON to be louder than the RX AF level, then the sidetone > monitor is too loud for comfort. > > The bottom line is that I want two different mixes of MON plus AF level, > one for RX and one for TX. > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Guy, K2AV
I think the crux of this problem is one of learning to use QSK.
That means being able to send without being disturbed by the other noises and distractions. Practice is the solution. It might take a couple days or a couple months. The reward is worth the effort. This remark isn't meant to "dis" anybody. What blows my mind is the organist who leads the choir, turns pages, plays the organ, uses foot peddles and sings, seemingly all simultaneously. Clearly he/she wasn't born with such a skill.. Now if we could just figure out how to do QSK RTTY. Easy if you have the subrx many miles away...... 73 de Brian/K3KO Guy Olinger, K2AV wrote: > I have to vote with Brian for contest operation. > > I have a couple threads going on this off the reflector. > > One thing that may be causing some of the problem re hearing the MON > on CW, is that MON does not go up and down with the AF volumn > control. I believe some of the hearability issues may vanish if the > MON setting established a *RATIO* with the AF control, rather than a > constant level into the speaker. This would make the ratio of MON to > RX audio independent of the RX gain control of the moment. > > As it is MON will likely be set below a "quiet room" "irritation" > level (it does not combine with the received audio when set) which > will be a lower level than probably needed because it is heard by > itself. Then when time-blended with QSK receive it seems weaker. > > Should point out to K3 users that (at least with 2.78) if you enable > MON and then hit the key, the MON control will be operative while > transmitting and one can set the level to match the audio, at least as > long as you leave the AF at the same setting. > > 73, Guy. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Alsop" <[hidden email]> > To: <[hidden email]> > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:54 AM > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 feature request - I want Ducking! > > >> I believe that most people using QSK are trying to simulate full duplex. >> >> I think the step function up and down RX signal level proposed here >> would sound awful when being keyed. >> The brain has enough to do without having to accommodate this level >> change too. Manually turning down the volume is not a good simulation >> of this step function change.. >> >> If this is done, it needs to be run by some testers to see just how >> bad the level change sounds at various speeds. >> I doubt anybody would like it. >> >> This change would be absolutely useless to me since the main use for QSK >> is in breaking pileups for the weak ones. >> It would render the weak ones unreadable. >> >> If one wants to fool around with AF gain compensation, I'd like to >> propose bumping up the AF gain 3db when the subrx is selected and the >> main/sub rx antenna is shared. That is a real pain. >> >> 73 de Brian/K3KO >> >> Kevin wrote: >> >>> Don Wilhelm wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Ron, >>>> >>>> I too am a firm believer in the KISS principle. >>>> Too much automation drives me crazy trying to remember what the >>>> automation is trying to do for me. Oft times the automation does >>>> not do >>>> what I want to be done. "manual controls forever". >>>> >>>> This is not a vote against automation and ease of use, but there are >>>> times when it is more effective to bypass the automatic controls, >>>> engage >>>> the brain, and get what one wants accomplished. Automation cannot >>>> substitute for individual preferences - that takes 'brain power' - >>>> so THINK! >>>> >>>> 73, >>>> Don W3FPR >>>> >>>> >>> >>> It seems to me with all the feature requests people are looking for a >>> custom radio and wanting the rig to do everything for them. The QSK on >>> the Elecraft rigs is very good the way it is. If you don't want to hear >>> the band between characters why are you working QSK? Why request a >>> "feature" that could cause serious problems down the road. I guarantee >>> as soon as this change makes it out into firmware the list will be >>> bombarded with posts like "Help, my QSK doesn't work anymore", or "I >>> want to be able to set the level of "ducking" manually, .25dB steps >>> would be fine thank you", etc, etc, etc.... *The more complicated >>> something is to operate the easier it is to screwup, badly.* >>> >>> Name one other HF rig, any price point, which does "ducking" while in >>> QSK. If you can your probably just used to their lousy >>> implementation of >>> QSK. >>> >>> How about if we have the Elecraft rigs turn the coffee pot on while >>> we're showering in the morning? >>> It's just an extra relay and a small change in the firmware. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Elecraft mailing list >>> Post to: [hidden email] >>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): >>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >>> >>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Post to: [hidden email] >> You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): >> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by ac0h
Kevin wrote:
> It seems to me with all the feature requests people are looking for a > custom radio and wanting the rig to do everything for them. The QSK on > the Elecraft rigs is very good the way it is. If you don't want to hear > the band between characters why are you working QSK? 1) The QSK *is* very good, but it is not perfect. There is some clicking when the band is noisy or crowded, and it's most likely caused by relatively complicated timing issues. A slight reduction in audio gain while transmitting -- which I now perform by turning the knob -- eliminates this. In non-casual operation -- contests, pileups, etc., it would be very convenient to have this take place automatically. It would go a long way in reducing operator fatigue in contests. 2) Some operators would like to use QSK but are distracted by background noise, even if the QSK is perfect. This feature would provide another option -- someone called it 'soft QSK' -- between full and semi QSK. It would be smoother than full QSK but still allow the operator to be aware of what's going on in the background and be interrupted if necessary. In order to accommodate these different preferences, the amount of gain reduction would have to be adjustable (but not in steps of 0.25 dB!). I think this is an excellent suggestion, and if -- as I think -- it wouldn't be very hard to implement, it would provide a lot of bang for the buck (that is, Wayne's time). -- 73, Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
CW ZERO-BEATING WITHOUT BUTTON PUSHES
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In reply to this post by Bob Cunnings NW8L
As a adjunct to the recent posts on using the Spot and
CWT features . . .
There is a third capability that many long-time CW operators intuitively possess. It is the immediate recognition of the correspondence of an incoming signal's pitch to that of the operator's longtime preferred sidetone pitch. Just as well known voices of loved ones and friends are instantly recognizable when their faces can't be seen, so also one's preferred sidetone pitch is likewise instantly recognizable when a signal is being tuned in and "hits" that pitch. This feature of the human brain requires no button pushes other than the initial setting of the sidetone pitch frequency. Once this is set, neither the SPOT nor CWT buttons need be used (on any rig). This "cerebral feature" is always there, regardless of the brand or model of rig being operated. Several of us used this capability on Straight Key Night when operating a friend's FT-2000 with it's myriad of buttons, switches, and multi-layered controls. Once we set the sidetone pitch to our individually preferred frequencies, zero-beating was intuitive. However, hearing impairment is a whole different issue and may well require the CWT visual aid. 73, Kent K9ZTV _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: CW ZERO-BEATING WITHOUT BUTTON PUSHES
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I agree with everything you say and have used this method for years.
Now if only I could decode RTTY by listening!! <grin>
73, George K4GM K9ZTV wrote: As a adjunct to the recent posts on using the Spot and CWT features . . . _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: CW ZERO-BEATING WITHOUT BUTTON PUSHES
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Really? I always try to tune CW by ear and I'm
amazed at just how far off I am once I check it against the spot tone. I
never get it right without some help.
I
suspect I'm not alone.
-
Keith N1AS -
- K3
711 -
one's preferred sidetone pitch is likewise instantly recognizable when a
signal is being tuned in and "hits" that pitch.
_______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: CW ZERO-BEATING WITHOUT BUTTON PUSHES
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Kieth,
From the number of 'off zero-beat QSOs I hear on the air, I know you are not alone. Some folks do have very good pitch recognition, but others (like me) have a certified 'tin ear'. Unfortunately, those with good pitch recognition have no concept of what it is like for folks like me. I have relied on Spectrogram to help me with the pitch for a long time. 73, Don W3FPR Darwin, Keith wrote: > Really? I always try to tune CW by ear and I'm amazed at just how far > off I am once I check it against the spot tone. I never get it right > without some help. > > I suspect I'm not alone. > > - Keith N1AS - > - K3 711 - > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > one's preferred sidetone pitch is likewise instantly recognizable when > a signal is being tuned in and "hits" that pitch. > > 73, > > Kent K9ZTV > > Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: CW ZERO-BEATING WITHOUT BUTTON PUSHES
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If,
A person with great pitch knows someone who cannot sing in tune, that should help define the issue. Kent, do you know of a person like that? I have excellent pitch but my wife and daughter are not so good. 73, Bill K9YEQ K2 #35; KX1 #35; K3 #1744; mini mods -----Original Message----- Kieth, From the number of 'off zero-beat QSOs I hear on the air, I know you are not alone. 73, Don W3FPR Darwin, Keith wrote: > Really? I always try to tune CW by ear and I'm amazed at just how far > off I am once I check it against the spot tone. I never get it right > without some help. > > I suspect I'm not alone. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > one's preferred sidetone pitch is likewise instantly recognizable when > a signal is being tuned in and "hits" that pitch. > > 73, > > Kent K9ZTV You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by K4GM-George
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Re: CW ZERO-BEATING WITHOUT BUTTON PUSHES
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Zero Beat was never a problem when we all had 6 KC wide IFs and crystal control. We just couldn't do it.
Willis 'Cookie' Cooke K5EWJ --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote: > From: Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW ZERO-BEATING WITHOUT BUTTON PUSHES > To: [hidden email] > Date: Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 11:27 AM > A fun "game" I play is to tune in a station then > check my accuracy with > SPOT while he's sending. I'm a bit miffed if I can > hear more than a 5 or 10 > Hz error, Hi! > > > > But some people have real trouble doing that. It reminds me > that some others > have a serious problem finding zero beat even using SPOT. > > > > Ron AC7AC > > > > > > > > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of > K4GM-George > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:12 AM > To: K9ZTV > Cc: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW ZERO-BEATING WITHOUT BUTTON > PUSHES > > > > I agree with everything you say and have used this method > for years. Now if > only I could decode RTTY by listening!! <grin> > 73, George K4GM > > K9ZTV wrote: > > As a adjunct to the recent posts on using the Spot and CWT > features . . . > > There is a third capability that many long-time CW > operators intuitively > possess. It is the immediate recognition of the > correspondence of an > incoming signal's pitch to that of the operator's > longtime preferred > sidetone pitch. > > Just as well known voices of loved ones and friends are > instantly > recognizable when their faces can't be seen, so also > one's preferred > sidetone pitch is likewise instantly recognizable when a > signal is being > tuned in and "hits" that pitch. This feature of > the human brain requires no > button pushes other than the initial setting of the > sidetone pitch > frequency. Once this is set, neither the SPOT nor CWT > buttons need be used > (on any rig). This "cerebral feature" is always > there, regardless of the > brand or model of rig being operated. > > Several of us used this capability on Straight Key Night > when operating a > friend's FT-2000 with it's myriad of buttons, > switches, and multi-layered > controls. Once we set the sidetone pitch to our > individually preferred > frequencies, zero-beating was intuitive. > > However, hearing impairment is a whole different issue and > may well require > the CWT visual aid. > > > 73, > > Kent K9ZTV > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: CW ZERO-BEATING WITHOUT BUTTON PUSHES
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In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith
Keith:
The trick I've used for decades is to set the sidetone just a bit louder than those signals I'm listening to. Then, when I zero the received signal, I tune it in to the point that it (audibly) "disappears" beneath the sidetone of the same frequency... if it's NOT zero beat, you'll be able to hear the offset. If it is zero beat, it'll be hiding behind the sidetone. I (think I) can provide a short WAV file to demonstrate if you have difficulty following the above verbal description. 73, Tom Hammond N0SS At 12:32 01/21/2009, Darwin, Keith wrote: Content-class: urn:content-classes:message _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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