K3 - interfacing to N1MM Contest Logging software

[Barry Pfeil]

After a bit of frustration with poor documentation, I've got my laptop connected to my new K3 using the Elecraft KUSB USB to Serial Adapter.  I was pleased to find a "K3" option in the N1MM Configurer but I have a few questions.

ESCape key - In the configurer, N1MM says that "ESC will not interrupt CW keying via the radio communications port".  But I'm using the DTR line on the single RS232 interface for keying and ESC seems to instantly stop any "F" key-initiated sending.  Am I missing something?

Stop bits - I apologize for my naivete on this, but N1MM sets the stop bits at 2 while also noting that Elecraft recommends 1 stop bit.  Anybody know why?  Should I change it to 1 stop bit?  It works fine as is (2 stop bits) so I'm basically in the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mode.

Speed - N1MM sets the speed at 4800 baud and also notes that "Elecraft recommends 4800-38,400 baud".  The Elecraft KUSB adapter set itself initially at 9600 baud.  Any insights here?  Again, I'm in "don't fix it..." mode

Thanks,
Barry, K6RM
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[Don Wilhelm-4]

Barry,

I believe you are correct in your "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"
stance.  Keep on keeping on!

However there are two things to be aware of in case of trouble down the
road.
1).Usually, USB to serial adapters work better at high speeds than low -
that is counterintuitive, but true.
2).For asynchronous RS232 protocol, the number of stop bits stated is a
minimum number.  With a properly functioning device at both ends,
increasing the number of stop bits should do nothing.  The state of the
'stop bit' is the same as the idle state - that means when
communication  pauses, the result is electrically the same as a large
number of stop bits.

I believe your ESC key 'problem' may be a matter of definition.  Keying
via DTR is not  "keying via the radio communications port" by my
definitions.   I would interpret that statement in the K1MM
documentation to mean keying by a technique similar to the K2/K3 "KY
command" (which uses the TXD/RXD communication lines).  Yes, the DTR
signal is a part of the RS-232 interface, but is is a signalling
(control) line and not a "communications" line - TXD and RXD are the
'communications' lines.  Others can tell you if my interpretation is
correct in light of the K1MM implementation (I don't know that answer),
but I know the terminology I used is correct for RS-232 communications.

73,
Don W3FPR

Barry Pfeil wrote:
> After a bit of frustration with poor documentation, I've got my laptop connected to my new K3 using the Elecraft KUSB USB to Serial Adapter.  I was pleased to find a "K3" option in the N1MM Configurer but I have a few questions.
>
> ESCape key - In the configurer, N1MM says that "ESC will not interrupt CW keying via the radio communications port".  But I'm using the DTR line on the single RS232 interface for keying and ESC seems to instantly stop any "F" key-initiated sending.  Am I missing something?
>
> Stop bits - I apologize for my naivete on this, but N1MM sets the stop bits at 2 while also noting that Elecraft recommends 1 stop bit.  Anybody know why?  Should I change it to 1 stop bit?  It works fine as is (2 stop bits) so I'm basically in the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mode.
>
> Speed - N1MM sets the speed at 4800 baud and also notes that "Elecraft recommends 4800-38,400 baud".  The Elecraft KUSB adapter set itself initially at 9600 baud.  Any insights here?  Again, I'm in "don't fix it..." mode
>  
>
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[Julian, G4ILO]

*My* USB to serial adapter got partial gobbledygook back from the K3 when 2 stop bits were set in the software. In fact, I bought another one that had exactly the same problem before discovering that setting the stop bits to 1 was the solution.

If yours works with 2 you've been lucky, but it would be worth bearing in mind that that configuration may not work with a different adapter.

[Guy, K2AV]

Barry Pfeil wrote

ESCape key - In the configurer, N1MM says that "ESC will not interrupt CW keying via the radio communications port".  But I'm using the DTR line on the single RS232 interface for keying and ESC seems to instantly stop any "F" key-initiated sending.  Am I missing something?

I asked this exact question on N1MM's yahoo reflector not too long ago, but did not get a response from anyone.  Last time I tried it, using a <single> RS232 cable for CW and CAT, the MM's CW <did> work nicely, but I was NOT able to get esc to stop the CW. Don't know if there's a change in MM behavior, or whether you and I are doing something different.

That the principal writers cannot lay hands on a K3 to test things apparently is (or maybe was? ) a bit of a holdup.  Since it's a free program, there's no corporate research budget for the coders to go buy one, other than to wait in line and spend the cash out of their own pocket, like everyone else.  



I'd like to see MM use the winkey-ish K3 send text commands instead of doing the timing dependent key line on RTS/DTR. That too has been discussed over there.

73, Guy K2AV

[Jim Brown-10]

On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 09:35:11 -0700 (PDT), Guy, K2AV wrote:



>Barry Pfeil wrote:
>>
>>
>> ESCape key - In the configurer, N1MM says that "ESC will not interrupt CW
>> keying via the radio communications port".  But I'm using the DTR line on
>> the single RS232 interface for keying and ESC seems to instantly stop any
>> "F" key-initiated sending.  Am I missing something?
>>
>>

>I asked this exact question on N1MM's yahoo reflector not too long ago, but
>did not get a response from anyone.  Last time I tried it, using a <single>
>RS232 cable for CW and CAT, the MM's CW <did> work nicely, but I was NOT
>able to get esc to stop the CW. Don't know if there's a change in MM
>behavior, or whether you and I are doing something different.

>That the principal writers cannot lay hands on a K3 to test things
>apparently is (or maybe was? ) a bit of a holdup.  Since it's a free
>program, there's no corporate research budget for the coders to go buy one,
>other than to wait in line and spend the cash out of their own pocket, like
>everyone else.

It is a function of how N1MM sends CW -- it runs a separate program that hogs
the processor, so that almost nothing else can happen on the computer while
you're sending CW!  I'd call that bad programming, but what do I know. :)  I
raised this issue, and N2IC, one of the guys who has contributed to N1MM,
attempted a fix. I beta-tested the code on my 5-year old 1.1 GHz IBM T22
running SO2R during a recent NA Sprint. It worked, I could interrupt sending,
I could shift focus from one radio to another, but the CW could best be
described as "lumbering" -- that is, sort of choppy. Much better -- it's
stable, no crashes -- but not ready for prime time.

That software works FLAWLESSLY for a SINGLE radio, including a K3, MP, Omni
V, and TS850 with CW and PTT on the same cable -- in fact, I've done that for
five years with both WriteLog and N1MM on that same T22. It's only SO2R that
chokes it, and it's the way that N1MM (and probably WL) send CW. That's why
so many guys doing SO2R use the WinKey -- it takes keying outside the
computer.

So as far as I can tell, it has NOTHING to do with the K3, and the
programmers should not need a K3 to solve the problem. They just need to find
a better way for computers to generate CW. Since I'm not a programmer, I have
no idea how much of a challenge that is.

The sad thing though is that the N1MM programmers SEEM to have abandoned the
idea. If you want to use N1MM and run SO2R, you should voice your concerns to
them.

73,

Jim K9YC


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[Julian, G4ILO]

Jim Brown-10 wrote

So as far as I can tell, it has NOTHING to do with the K3, and the
programmers should not need a K3 to solve the problem. They just need to find
a better way for computers to generate CW. Since I'm not a programmer, I have
no idea how much of a challenge that is.

The sad thing though is that the N1MM programmers SEEM to have abandoned the
idea. If you want to use N1MM and run SO2R, you should voice your concerns to
them.

At a wild guess (since I've never used the program) they are running something at a high priority in order to try to overcome Windows innate inability to do accurate high speed timing.

The K3 has a very elegant, processor-independent method of sending CW from a computer via the serial port, the KY command. Unfortunately as has been pointed out on two previous occasions when I have questioned why it is not used, the trouble is that the K2 and K3 are the only radios that implement this in a properly thought-out way, so developers of general purpose software are not interested in doing the necessary work to exploit it.

[Joe Subich, W4TV-3]

> At a wild guess (since I've never used the program) they are
> running something at a high priority in order to try to
> overcome Windows innate inability to do accurate high speed
> timing.

That is correct.  With SO2R the logging programs must run their
CW timing at high priority in a separate process or Window's
non-realtime nature will severely screw up the timing.  It is
the lack of Windows' ability to handle real-time events and the
lack of common "PC hardware" to provide an independent clock
that is at fault here.  

WinKey is the only "transceiver independent" way to get that
timing outside of Windows where it is not effected by the
vagaries of Windows (or any other operating system).  

> Unfortunately as has been pointed out on two previous occasions
> when I have questioned why it is not used, the trouble is that
> the K2 and K3 are the only radios that implement this in a
> properly thought-out way, so developers of general purpose
> software are not interested in doing the necessary work to
> exploit it.

First, the Kenwood TS-480, 570, 870, 2000 also support the "KY"
command.  However, KY is not "properly thought out" and lacks
several features - most notably the ability to edit portions of
a message that have already been sent to the external device.  
The development teams of BOTH major US based Windows contesting
programs and several other major integrated packages have stated
that the lack of editing, the "transceiver specific" nature of
the KY command, and the differences between the Elecraft and
Kenwood implementations make "KY" an absolute non-starter.  

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Julian, G4ILO
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 1:35 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - interfacing to N1MM Contest
> Logging software
>
>
>
>
> Jim Brown-10 wrote:
> >
> > So as far as I can tell, it has NOTHING to do with the K3, and the
> > programmers should not need a K3 to solve the problem. They
> just need to
> > find
> > a better way for computers to generate CW. Since I'm not a
> programmer, I
> > have
> > no idea how much of a challenge that is.
> >
> > The sad thing though is that the N1MM programmers SEEM to have
> > abandoned the idea. If you want to use N1MM and run SO2R,
> you should
> > voice your concerns to
> > them.
> >
> >
> At a wild guess (since I've never used the program) they are
> running something at a high priority in order to try to
> overcome Windows innate inability to do accurate high speed timing.
>
> The K3 has a very elegant, processor-independent method of
> sending CW from a computer via the serial port, the KY
> command. Unfortunately as has been pointed out on two
> previous occasions when I have questioned why it is not used,
> the trouble is that the K2 and K3 are the only radios that
> implement this in a properly thought-out way, so developers
> of general purpose software are not interested in doing the
> necessary work to exploit it.
>
> -----
> Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392  K3 #222.
> http://www.g4ilo.com/ G4ILO's Shack  
> http://www.ham-directory.com/ Ham
> Directory    http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html KComm for
> Elecraft K2 and K3

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[Simon (HB9DRV)]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>

> It is the lack of Windows' ability to handle real-time events...

I really don't agree. There is no reason why a highly accurate background
thread cannot be implemented in a Windows NT-based system for sending CW
where the solution does not use all CPU or affect other programs which are
running, it's up to the programmer to code properly.

> WinKey is the only "transceiver independent" way to get that
> timing outside of Windows where it is not effected by the
> vagaries of Windows (or any other operating system).

WinKey is the very best option IMO.

> The development teams of BOTH major US based Windows contesting
> programs and several other major integrated packages have stated
> that the lack of editing, the "transceiver specific" nature of
> the KY command, and the differences between the Elecraft and
> Kenwood implementations make "KY" an absolute non-starter.

Agreed - unlike WinKey with KY you have no idea how many characters are
inside the radio waiting to be sent. It's OK for sending CQ DX ALL NIGHT
LONG etc. but for anything else it's not a good option.

Simon Brown, HB9DRV
www.ham-radio-deluxe.com

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[Joe Subich, W4TV-3]

> I really don't agree. There is no reason why a highly
> accurate background thread cannot be implemented in a
> Windows NT-based system for sending CW where the solution
> does not use all CPU or affect other programs which are
> running, it's up to the programmer to code properly.

There are several problems ... first, most of these developers
insist on maintaining support for Windows 98 (although I
think Win 98 users should be left to fend for themselves
along with any DOS users who might still be hanging on).
Second, no programmer can protect against poor programming
by other programmers and the bloatware that gets installed
as part of other software (auto stat/auto update/auto config,
etc.) on many computers unknown to the user.  Finally, too
many users insist on using ancient (PIII/450 MHz with 256 MB
RAM) hardware that is just not up to the task and destroys
performance due to memory paging issues.  

>
> WinKey is the very best option IMO.

We agree.  Since the serial WinKeyer 2 kit which is available
for $36 from K1EL can be extended to full two radio support
with two FETs, two resistors and two capacitors, I don't see
any reason for the resistance by so many.

It is strange that folks with graphics, mathematics and sound
coprocessors in their computer object to adding a CW coprocessor!

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV
     

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Simon (HB9DRV)
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 4:07 PM
> To: [hidden email]; 'Julian, G4ILO';
> [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - interfacing to N1MM Contest
> Logging software
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
>
> > It is the lack of Windows' ability to handle real-time events...
>
> I really don't agree. There is no reason why a highly
> accurate background
> thread cannot be implemented in a Windows NT-based system for
> sending CW
> where the solution does not use all CPU or affect other
> programs which are
> running, it's up to the programmer to code properly.
>
> > WinKey is the only "transceiver independent" way to get that timing
> > outside of Windows where it is not effected by the vagaries
> of Windows
> > (or any other operating system).
>
> WinKey is the very best option IMO.
>
> > The development teams of BOTH major US based Windows contesting
> > programs and several other major integrated packages have
> stated that
> > the lack of editing, the "transceiver specific" nature of the KY
> > command, and the differences between the Elecraft and Kenwood
> > implementations make "KY" an absolute non-starter.
>
> Agreed - unlike WinKey with KY you have no idea how many
> characters are
> inside the radio waiting to be sent. It's OK for sending CQ
> DX ALL NIGHT
> LONG etc. but for anything else it's not a good option.
>
> Simon Brown, HB9DRV
> www.ham-radio-deluxe.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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[Julian, G4ILO]

Simon (HB9DRV) wrote

Agreed - unlike WinKey with KY you have no idea how many characters are
inside the radio waiting to be sent. It's OK for sending CQ DX ALL NIGHT
LONG etc. but for anything else it's not a good option.

I'm sorry, but I really don't get this argument in the context of contest operating at all. The typical contest "over", whether it's a call or a report or an acknowledgement, is pretty short. It takes about a couple of seconds to transmit. If anyone can change the text between the moment of hitting the Send key and the transmission being finished they are a hell of a lot quicker on the keyboard than I am.

The KY command is simply an alternative to external memory keyers or the message memories built into radios like the K2 and K3 that are not modifiable in any shape or form during the time-frame of a contest contact.

[David Cutter]

I've altered a call on the fly during the over.   For instance I might send G3UNA? on the first over, then lop off the ? during the confirm transmission.  Not sure if this is what you mean, tho.

David
G3UNA

>
> From: "Julian, G4ILO" <[hidden email]>
> Date: 2008/09/30 Tue AM 09:38:06 BST
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - interfacing to N1MM Contest Logging software
>
>
>
>
> Simon (HB9DRV) wrote:
> >
> > Agreed - unlike WinKey with KY you have no idea how many characters are
> > inside the radio waiting to be sent. It's OK for sending CQ DX ALL NIGHT
> > LONG etc. but for anything else it's not a good option.
> >
> I'm sorry, but I really don't get this argument in the context of contest
> operating at all. The typical contest "over", whether it's a call or a
> report or an acknowledgement, is pretty short. It takes about a couple of
> seconds to transmit. If anyone can change the text between the moment of
> hitting the Send key and the transmission being finished they are a hell of
> a lot quicker on the keyboard than I am.
>
> The KY command is simply an alternative to external memory keyers or the
> message memories built into radios like the K2 and K3 that are not
> modifiable in any shape or form during the time-frame of a contest contact.
>
> -----
> Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392  K3 #222.
> http://www.g4ilo.com/ G4ILO's Shack   http://www.ham-directory.com/ Ham
> Directory    http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html KComm for Elecraft K2 and K3
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3---interfacing-to-N1MM-Contest-Logging-software-tp1124874p1128369.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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[Julian, G4ILO]

Would you lop off the ? *after* clicking the button to start sending the confirmation? If yes, then it would be a problem, because the software would have sent the whole confirmation to the radio as soon as you clicked the button. Otherwise it wouldn't.

Julian, G4ILO
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com

2008/9/30 <[hidden email]>

I've altered a call on the fly during the over.   For instance I might send G3UNA? on the first over, then lop off the ? during the confirm transmission.  Not sure if this is what you mean, tho.

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[David Cutter]

No.  
David
G3UNA

>
> From: "Julian G4ILO" <[hidden email]>
> Date: 2008/09/30 Tue AM 11:13:38 BST
> To: [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - interfacing to N1MM Contest Logging software
>
> Would you lop off the ? *after* clicking the button to start sending the
> confirmation? If yes, then it would be a problem, because the software would
> have sent the whole confirmation to the radio as soon as you clicked the
> button. Otherwise it wouldn't.
>
> Julian, G4ILO
> G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
>
>
> 2008/9/30 <[hidden email]>
>
> > I've altered a call on the fly during the over.   For instance I might send
> > G3UNA? on the first over, then lop off the ? during the confirm
> > transmission.  Not sure if this is what you mean, tho.
> >
>
>

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[Joe Subich, W4TV-3]

You have obviously not used N1MM Logger or Writelog as the
user can edit calls or other information in the entry window
and have the update reflected in macros already in process.
That is a function of the software - and works with either
direct (PC generated) or Winkey CW generation.  

The developers simply will not consider support for any form
of CW generation that does not provide support for that feature
or is transceiver specific.  This constant carping for "KY
support" is going nowhere - it is a non-starter as far as a
major segment of the developer community is concerned.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Julian, G4ILO
> Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 4:38 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - interfacing to N1MM Contest
> Logging software
>
>
>
>
>
> Simon (HB9DRV) wrote:
> >
> > Agreed - unlike WinKey with KY you have no idea how many characters
> > are
> > inside the radio waiting to be sent. It's OK for sending CQ
> DX ALL NIGHT
> > LONG etc. but for anything else it's not a good option.
> >
> I'm sorry, but I really don't get this argument in the
> context of contest operating at all. The typical contest
> "over", whether it's a call or a report or an
> acknowledgement, is pretty short. It takes about a couple of
> seconds to transmit. If anyone can change the text between
> the moment of hitting the Send key and the transmission being
> finished they are a hell of a lot quicker on the keyboard than I am.
>
> The KY command is simply an alternative to external memory
> keyers or the message memories built into radios like the K2
> and K3 that are not modifiable in any shape or form during
> the time-frame of a contest contact.
>
> -----
> Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392  K3 #222.
> http://www.g4ilo.com/ G4ILO's Shack  
> http://www.ham-directory.com/ Ham
> Directory    http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html KComm for
> Elecraft K2 and K3

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[gm3sek]

Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>
>You have obviously not used N1MM Logger or Writelog as the user can
>edit calls or other information in the entry window and have the update
>reflected in macros already in process.

The aim is to respond immediately to the station that has just called.
Both contesting programs can be configured to start sending CW
automatically after the first few characters of a callsign have been
typed in. In reality this does allow the operator to finish typing the
rest of the callsign, ahead of the computer, so the other station hears
a very prompt response containing his complete callsign with no glitches
or hesitations.


>That is a function of the software - and works with either direct (PC
>generated) or Winkey CW generation.
>
>The developers simply will not consider support for any form of CW
>generation that does not provide support for that feature or is
>transceiver specific.  This constant carping for "KY support" is going
>nowhere - it is a non-starter as far as a major segment of the
>developer community is concerned.
>
That's correct - we have already passed the Point Of No Return on this
one. There is no point in software developers attempting to support
several fragmented subsets of the KY protocol on different rigs (*none*
of which currently supports the needs of all users) when the WInkey
protocol is already there and does it all.

Now if the K3 could have built-in support for the Winkey protocol, that
would be a very different matter! But that's for the future; and in the
meantime the hardware Winkey option is already available.

I was a very reluctant convert to the Winkey chip, because "Who needs
yet another paddle-driven keyer? I've already got three, and still only
one keying hand!"  Instead, I decided to use the Winkey chip in a
minimalist way as a simple "Morse Modem" - a small dongle that has only
an ASCII serial input and a Morse output. Used in this way, it needs no
paddle input or manual speed control; the keying speed is controlled
entirely by the host software (N1MM) which can also command the chip to
switch its keying output between two different rigs. The only feature
lost by not using the Winkey's own paddle inputs is the ability to
interrupt outgoing CW by touching a paddle - and the Esc key works fine
for that.



--

73 from Ian GM3SEK
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek
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[Nick Kennedy]

Is the N1MM protocol for communicating with Winkey made public
anywhere?  For us MCU programming CW enthusiasts?

73--Nick, WA5BDU

>>
> That's correct - we have already passed the Point Of No Return on this
> one. There is no point in software developers attempting to support
> several fragmented subsets of the KY protocol on different rigs
> (*none* of which currently supports the needs of all users) when the
> WInkey protocol is already there and does it all.
>
> Now if the K3 could have built-in support for the Winkey protocol,
> that would be a very different matter! But that's for the future; and
> in the meantime the hardware Winkey option is already available.
>
> I was a very reluctant convert to the Winkey chip, because "Who needs
> yet another paddle-driven keyer? I've already got three, and still
> only one keying hand!"  Instead, I decided to use the Winkey chip in a
> minimalist way as a simple "Morse Modem" - a small dongle that has
> only an ASCII serial input and a Morse output. Used in this way, it
> needs no paddle input or manual speed control; the keying speed is
> controlled entirely by the host software (N1MM) which can also command
> the chip to switch its keying output between two different rigs. The
> only feature lost by not using the Winkey's own paddle inputs is the
> ability to interrupt outgoing CW by touching a paddle - and the Esc
> key works fine for that.
>
>
>

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[Simon (HB9DRV)]

The WinKey programming interface is available - see K1EL's website.

Simon Brown, HB9DRV
www.ham-radio-deluxe.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick-WA5BDU" <[hidden email]>


> Is the N1MM protocol for communicating with Winkey made public
> anywhere?  For us MCU programming CW enthusiasts?

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[gm3sek]

Nick-WA5BDU wrote:
>Is the N1MM protocol for communicating with Winkey made public
>anywhere?  For us MCU programming CW enthusiasts?

As Simon says, it is actually Winkey's protocol for communicating with
any external application. Full details are given in the data sheets for
the Winkey 1 and Winkey 2 devices, downloadable from www.k1el.com


--

73 from Ian GM3SEK
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek
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[Nick Kennedy]

Thanks to all who pointed me to the info that I should have been able to
find myself.  ;^)

And to K1EL for providing the nice documentation.

73--Nick, WA5BDU


Simon (HB9DRV) wrote:
> The WinKey programming interface is available - see K1EL's website.

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