K3 noise-blanker

[info4mjs]

Hi Jim,

I had both the K3 and Orion 2 in my shack.  We have several appliances that generate RFI and neighbors' devices that do, too.  Both the K3 and O2 seem to handle them and allow me to make my Q's.  Now, when W1AW is on the air (as well as some other QRO stations in my area....I live about 5 miles from W1AW) and contributes to the noise with IMD products, the O2 works better.  The O2 stayed and the K3 left.

Mike, WA1SEO
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[Barry N1EU]

info4mjs wrote

I had both the K3 and Orion 2 in my shack. . .  Now, when W1AW is on the air (as well as some other QRO stations in my area....I live about 5 miles from W1AW) and contributes to the noise with IMD products, the O2 works better.  The O2 stayed and the K3 left.

Hmmm . . .  I happen to have recently read WA1SEO's Orion2 review on eham.  He reported spending just "a couple of hours behind a K3"  and he was a fairly new owner of the Orion2 at that time.  I'm sure Mike heard what he heard, but his report is clearly anecdotal, rather than definitive.

I don't understand K3 bashing after just a couple of hours of use.  To say the Orion(2) is more refined and more finished than the K3 is certainly a stretch in my eyes, after 4.5 years on the Orion.  

All that being said, I actually think they're both very good radios.  

73,
Barry N1EU

[Bill W4ZV]

info4mjs wrote

I had both the K3 and Orion 2 in my shack. . .  Now, when W1AW is on the air (as well as some other QRO stations in my area....I live about 5 miles from W1AW) and contributes to the noise with IMD products, the O2 works better.  The O2 stayed and the K3 left.

Barry N1EU wrote

Hmmm . . .  I happen to have recently read WA1SEO's Orion2 review on eham.  He reported spending just "a couple of hours behind a K3"  and he was a fairly new owner of the Orion2 at that time.  I'm sure Mike heard what he heard, but his report is clearly anecdotal, rather than definitive.

I don't understand K3 bashing after just a couple of hours of use.  To say the Orion(2) is more refined and more finished than the K3 is certainly a stretch in my eyes, after 4.5 years on the Orion.  

All that being said, I actually think they're both very good radios.  

Barry caused me to go read WA1SEO's Orion 2 review:

http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/5564 (4th one down):

Comments on the K3:

###########################################
"The K3 was OK but didn’t handle my QTH’s issues as well as the Orion 2. (I live within 5 miles of W1AW, have several QRO stations within 2 miles, and have very strong signals from local AM broadcast stations, in addition to the locally generated RFI from various appliances.) The K3 didn’t feel as refined (functionally and mechanically) as the Orion 2. A comparably equipped K3 sans panoramic display will cost over $3700, which is significantly more than my used O2 cost.

Ultimately, I made my decision because I assumed the Orion 2 was a finished product and it worked well. I believe the K3 is a work in progress that will probably work at my QTH someday, but not right now."
###########################################

Based on the Feb 24th date of this review and his comments about the K3's strong signal overload, my guess is he may have had a pre-S/N 211 K3 (sans hardware AGC mod announced publicly on March 27 with the mod implemented in production units approximately mid-January).

Orion is indeed an excellent radio, but I configured my K3 for what I needed at ~$2.5k.  This includes a Sub RX that has identical RF performance to the Main RX and which will allow true phase-locked diversity.  Orion has neither of these features which is why I sold my 4 year old Orion in favor of the K3.  I also believe the K3's firmware is well ahead of where Orion was at the same stage of its product life cycle (6 months after 1st shipments).  Also, the addition of a $200 LP-PAN and $100 sound card will give a panadaptor rivaling Flex-Radio's (since they both use the same PowerSDR software).

73,  Bill  W4ZV

[Julian, G4ILO]

Bill W4ZV wrote

my guess is he may have had a pre-S/N 211 K3 (sans hardware AGC mod announced publicly on March 27 with the mod implemented in production units approximately mid-January).

I believe that some K3's later than S/N 211 do not have the HAGC mod. Mine is S/N 222. While installing the KPA3 yesterday I checked the area of the mod and it looks exactly like the pictures of the unmodded board. The resistor that was changed to a LED looks just like all the other resistors, the two resistors that are shorted look just like resistors, and there is no added resistor linking two points. So unless the changes made in production were done in such a way that the board still looks the same, I must assume my K3 does not have the mod, and possibly others post S/N 211 haven't either.

[Bill W4ZV]

Bill W4ZV wrote

my guess is he may have had a pre-S/N 211 K3 (sans hardware AGC mod announced publicly on March 27 with the mod implemented in production units approximately mid-January).

G4ILO wrote

I believe that some K3's later than S/N 211 do not have the HAGC mod. Mine is S/N 222. While installing the KPA3 yesterday I checked the area of the mod and it looks exactly like the pictures of the unmodded board. The resistor that was changed to a LED looks just like all the other resistors, the two resistors that are shorted look just like resistors, and there is no added resistor linking two points. So unless the changes made in production were done in such a way that the board still looks the same, I must assume my K3 does not have the mod, and possibly others post S/N 211 haven't either.

http://www.elecraft.com/K3/k3_app_notes.htm

"K3 RF Rev A boards with a  leaded resistor added between C196 and C197 have this change.
All Rev B RF boards have this change."

If you don't have a Rev B board and there is no discrete resistor between the two points above, you may not have the mod installed.

73,  Bill

[Phil Salas]

"I believe that some K3's later than S/N 211 do not have the HAGC mod...."

My SN308 did NOT have this mod (it does now!!).

Phil - AD5X
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[Julian, G4ILO]

Bill W4ZV wrote

If you don't have a Rev B board and there is no discrete resistor between the two points above, you may not have the mod installed.

My board is Rev A and I don't have the resistor. Guess I'll have to manage without the mod, because removing those tiny components is beyond me.

[Bruce McLaughlin-2]

I've had my K-3 for little over one week now.  I've had the Orion II for
about 1 1/2 years.  They are both fine radios.  However, I have noticed that
with the Orion II, to get the best performance you have to be ready to
readjust the RF gain fairly often to suit band conditions and received
signal strength in order to get the best signal-to-noise ratio. That does
not appear necessary with the K-3. And the noise reduction circuit in the
K-3  appears to be far more effective than the Orion II.  And I find it
particularly interesting that no matter how high it is set it does not
appear to cause any noticeable audio distortion.  Unfortunately, audio
distortion is a big factor with the Orion II.  I believe that was a software
issue that was supposedly to be addressed in a future firmware update from
TenTec but, as many know, TenTec ceased to issue any further updates about a
year ago.  That is in marked contrast to what is going on with Elecraft
radios.  I would not disparage the Orion II but it does have its quirks.

I do have a couple of bones to pick with the K-3.  The CW side tone/spot
tone audio level is way too low, even with the monitor control set to full.
That needs to be fixed.  I understand it is in the works but I hope it could
be advanced to a fairly high priority.

There also appears to be something funny with the AGC.  There is a
considerable difference in audio volume between weak and strong stations.
I've noticed that when a very strong sideband station comes on, it is
capable of driving the audio level to a painful loudness, occasionally even
to the point of audio distortion.  I understand some folks like that because
it tends to distinguish between very weak and very strong stations by audio
level differences.  Unfortunately, that is not my preference.  I don't know
whether that is being considered for a firmware change but I hope that it
might. It may be already adjustable but if it is I haven't found it yet.

Bruce-W8FU

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Barry N1EU
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 10:13 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 noise-blanker



info4mjs wrote:
>
> I had both the K3 and Orion 2 in my shack. . .  Now, when W1AW is on the
> air (as well as some other QRO stations in my area....I live about 5 miles
> from W1AW) and contributes to the noise with IMD products, the O2 works
> better.  The O2 stayed and the K3 left.
>
Hmmm . . .  I happen to have recently read WA1SEO's Orion2 review on eham.
He reported spending just "a couple of hours behind a K3"  and he was a
fairly new owner of the Orion2 at that time.  I'm sure Mike heard what he
heard, but his report is clearly anecdotal, rather than definitive.

I don't understand K3 bashing after just a couple of hours of use.  To say
the Orion(2) is more refined and more finished than the K3 is certainly a
stretch in my eyes, after 4.5 years on the Orion.  

All that being said, I actually think they're both very good radios.  

73,
Barry N1EU

--
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/K3-noise-blanker-tp17338480p17341348.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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[ab2tc]

Hi,

Just go to config and change AGC SLP from 10 to 15 (the maximum) and your troubles will be gone. This was one of the first things I did after being nearly blown out of the shack by a strong signal. Beats me why some people want it the way it comes from the factory.

Knut - AB2TC

Bruce McLaughlin-2 wrote

I've had my K-3 for little over one week now.  I've had the Orion II for
about 1 1/2 years.  They are both fine radios.  However, I have noticed that
with the Orion II, to get the best performance you have to be ready to
readjust the RF gain fairly often to suit band conditions and received
signal strength in order to get the best signal-to-noise ratio. That does
not appear necessary with the K-3. And the noise reduction circuit in the
K-3  appears to be far more effective than the Orion II.  And I find it
particularly interesting that no matter how high it is set it does not
appear to cause any noticeable audio distortion.  Unfortunately, audio
distortion is a big factor with the Orion II.  I believe that was a software
issue that was supposedly to be addressed in a future firmware update from
TenTec but, as many know, TenTec ceased to issue any further updates about a
year ago.  That is in marked contrast to what is going on with Elecraft
radios.  I would not disparage the Orion II but it does have its quirks.

I do have a couple of bones to pick with the K-3.  The CW side tone/spot
tone audio level is way too low, even with the monitor control set to full.
That needs to be fixed.  I understand it is in the works but I hope it could
be advanced to a fairly high priority.

There also appears to be something funny with the AGC.  There is a
considerable difference in audio volume between weak and strong stations.
I've noticed that when a very strong sideband station comes on, it is
capable of driving the audio level to a painful loudness, occasionally even
to the point of audio distortion.  I understand some folks like that because
it tends to distinguish between very weak and very strong stations by audio
level differences.  Unfortunately, that is not my preference.  I don't know
whether that is being considered for a firmware change but I hope that it
might. It may be already adjustable but if it is I haven't found it yet.

Bruce-W8FU

<snip>

[Barry N1EU]

Bruce, the Orion II audio distortion problem is well known and is the
reason I actually prefer the Orion I running the old v1 firmware
(which won't run on the Orion II).  The AGC on the v1 Orion acts more
like the K3 and never distorts.

As far as your K3 comments:

The latest K3 firmware provides me with very loud sidetone when
cranked up to 60.  Perhaps you are running older firmware.

Turn up your config AGC SLP setting to 15 and it will eliminate the
audio variation between different signal strengths.

73,
Barry N1EU

On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 12:18 AM, Bruce McLaughlin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've had my K-3 for little over one week now.  I've had the Orion II for
> about 1 1/2 years.  They are both fine radios.  However, I have noticed that
> with the Orion II, to get the best performance you have to be ready to
> readjust the RF gain fairly often to suit band conditions and received
> signal strength in order to get the best signal-to-noise ratio. That does
> not appear necessary with the K-3. And the noise reduction circuit in the
> K-3  appears to be far more effective than the Orion II.  And I find it
> particularly interesting that no matter how high it is set it does not
> appear to cause any noticeable audio distortion.  Unfortunately, audio
> distortion is a big factor with the Orion II.  I believe that was a software
> issue that was supposedly to be addressed in a future firmware update from
> TenTec but, as many know, TenTec ceased to issue any further updates about a
> year ago.  That is in marked contrast to what is going on with Elecraft
> radios.  I would not disparage the Orion II but it does have its quirks.
>
> I do have a couple of bones to pick with the K-3.  The CW side tone/spot
> tone audio level is way too low, even with the monitor control set to full.
> That needs to be fixed.  I understand it is in the works but I hope it could
> be advanced to a fairly high priority.
>
> There also appears to be something funny with the AGC.  There is a
> considerable difference in audio volume between weak and strong stations.
> I've noticed that when a very strong sideband station comes on, it is
> capable of driving the audio level to a painful loudness, occasionally even
> to the point of audio distortion.  I understand some folks like that because
> it tends to distinguish between very weak and very strong stations by audio
> level differences.  Unfortunately, that is not my preference.  I don't know
> whether that is being considered for a firmware change but I hope that it
> might. It may be already adjustable but if it is I haven't found it yet.
>
> Bruce-W8FU
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Barry N1EU
> Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 10:13 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 noise-blanker
>
>
>
> info4mjs wrote:
>>
>> I had both the K3 and Orion 2 in my shack. . .  Now, when W1AW is on the
>> air (as well as some other QRO stations in my area....I live about 5 miles
>> from W1AW) and contributes to the noise with IMD products, the O2 works
>> better.  The O2 stayed and the K3 left.
>>
> Hmmm . . .  I happen to have recently read WA1SEO's Orion2 review on eham.
> He reported spending just "a couple of hours behind a K3"  and he was a
> fairly new owner of the Orion2 at that time.  I'm sure Mike heard what he
> heard, but his report is clearly anecdotal, rather than definitive.
>
> I don't understand K3 bashing after just a couple of hours of use.  To say
> the Orion(2) is more refined and more finished than the K3 is certainly a
> stretch in my eyes, after 4.5 years on the Orion.
>
> All that being said, I actually think they're both very good radios.
>
> 73,
> Barry N1EU
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/K3-noise-blanker-tp17338480p17341348.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.0/1459 - Release Date: 5/21/2008
> 5:34 PM
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>
>

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[k6xt]

I hope this note proves useful for someone. Like many here my receiver
career extends back through luminaries like the ARC5, Knight R100,
Hallicrafters S22 etc. These were not only the main receiver, they were
the only receiver in days when many of us scrounged a station that took
more than a desktop to generate 50 watts. I used to operate phone but
gave it up for less obstreperous pastures, so most of my recent
experience (25 years or so) is CW and a bit of digital. As a matter of
preference I began to concentrate on low-band DXing especially 80 and 160.

In days gone by it was necessary to ride three controls continuously: 1.
RF gain. 2. AF gain. 3. VFO. Not necessarily in that order, and whatever
you do don't jiggle the table. Most of the time I had little use for the
AGC's of the day. At least for lowband weak signal DXing still do not.
It is true that AGC OFF can produce some acoustic surprises.

Moving on through the various Drake lines, TS930, IC-765 and IC-781
riding the VFO was no longer necessary. However, the other two controls
continued to produce excellent results.

Next, a couple years ago, came an Orion 1. On the Orion web I read
remarks similar to some reviewed here. We no longer need RF gain, the
AGC does it all. I read and applied all the techniques. Well, yes and
no. To be sure the latest DSP rigs have some advantages. The signal
processing is vastly improved. But is it no longer necessary to do what
we've always done, ride the RF gain?

In my experience the answer is a resounding NO. Riding the RF gain
benefits the Orion at least as much as it ever did the earlier non-DSP
rigs. Throw in superlative noise reduction and noise blanking (relative
to the earlier rigs, anyway) coupled with signal processing and we can
now copy signals unobtainable in earlier years.

My bet is the K3 will be no different, when I get it running. We shall
see but I bet there is a reason the K3 has an actual, no kidding RF Gain
knob instead of a menu choice like the wishful-thinking Orion.
Especially on the noisy low bands there's just no replacement for
letting the brain decide where system gain should be.

I hope the K3 allows me to turn off AGC. Well, the second loop anyway.

73 Art
------------------------
Bruce W8FU wrote:
with the Orion II, to get the best performance you have to be ready to
 > readjust the RF gain fairly often to suit band conditions and received
 > signal strength in order to get the best signal-to-noise ratio. That does
 > not appear necessary with the K-3. And the noise reduction circuit in the
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[KK7P]

> I hope the K3 allows me to turn off AGC. Well, the second loop anyway.

It does indeed (the DSP loop).  The hardware loop must remain active to
protect the Analog-to-Digital converter, but that doesn't kick in until
signals are around 20 dB over S9.

And the RF Gain control knob is comfortable to use :-)

73,

Lyle KK7P

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[dj7mgq]

Hi Julian,

> My board is Rev A and I don't have the resistor. Guess I'll have to manage
> without the mod, because removing those tiny components is beyond me.

Removing them is actually rather easy with a very fine tipped iron. You
can then use good old fashioned components - the kind which have wires
sticking out at the correct places - to do the modification. You've just
got to take your time and not try to rush things.

If we were closer to each other, then I'd gladly do it for you.

vy 73 de toby
--
DD5FZ (ex 4n6fz, dj7mgq, dg5mgq, dd5fz)
K2 #885
K2/100 #3248
K3/100 #67
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