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K3 - noise reduction query

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Bill-3

K3 - noise reduction query

It is lightning season and I have been floundering around the menus on
the K3's DSP NR system. I have found no setting that really do much of
clean-up on lightning static. I also have tried using the ATT and RF
Gain settings also.

The sad part is that My cheap little Kenwood TS480 does a much better
job of cleaning up this noise.

Of course, lightning static is very random and difficult to reduce. My
use of HF is 40 and 75, so directional antennas are not an option - as
some suggested.

Please do not answer with direct emails - the group needs to share in
this knowledge.

Thanks,

Bill W2BLC K-Line

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 - noise reduction query

> The sad part is that My cheap little Kenwood TS480 does a much better
> job of cleaning up this noise.

You are trolling for complaints on the Elecraft noise reduction - not
looking for a "solution". The Elecraft noise reduction is designed for
"smooth" noise - not impulse noise which is a noise blanker function.

A smooth noise reduction system (LMS) operates by forming bandpass
filters around what it determines to be "signal" components and passing
just the "signal". You will have better results with lightning by
working with the noise blanker - probably on a "long" setting - as
it is designed to work with fast rise time signals.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2014-07-04 9:17 AM, Bill W2BLC wrote:

> It is lightning season and I have been floundering around the menus on
> the K3's DSP NR system. I have found no setting that really do much of
> clean-up on lightning static. I also have tried using the ATT and RF
> Gain settings also.
>
> The sad part is that My cheap little Kenwood TS480 does a much better
> job of cleaning up this noise.
>
> Of course, lightning static is very random and difficult to reduce. My
> use of HF is 40 and 75, so directional antennas are not an option - as
> some suggested.
>
> Please do not answer with direct emails - the group needs to share in
> this knowledge.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill W2BLC K-Line
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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>

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Bill-3

Re: K3 - noise reduction query

I am trolling for nothing other than suggestions and possibly successful
settings used by other K3 users. The purpose of this reflector is to aid
owners/users of Elecraft equipment.

If you have a problem with my asking for K3 operating information and
shared knowledge - TUFF!

Bill W2BLC K-Line
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kk4oyj

Re: K3 - noise reduction query

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Bill,

I suggest you use your TS-480 rather than the K3 if that's what works for you. Personally, mine has been gathering dust since I got my K3.

73 de John, 9H5G

> On Jul 4, 2014, at 3:36 PM, "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> > The sad part is that My cheap little Kenwood TS480 does a much better
> > job of cleaning up this noise.
>
> You are trolling for complaints on the Elecraft noise reduction - not
> looking for a "solution". The Elecraft noise reduction is designed for
> "smooth" noise - not impulse noise which is a noise blanker function.
>
> A smooth noise reduction system (LMS) operates by forming bandpass
> filters around what it determines to be "signal" components and passing
> just the "signal". You will have better results with lightning by
> working with the noise blanker - probably on a "long" setting - as
> it is designed to work with fast rise time signals.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>> On 2014-07-04 9:17 AM, Bill W2BLC wrote:
>> It is lightning season and I have been floundering around the menus on
>> the K3's DSP NR system. I have found no setting that really do much of
>> clean-up on lightning static. I also have tried using the ATT and RF
>> Gain settings also.
>>
>> The sad part is that My cheap little Kenwood TS480 does a much better
>> job of cleaning up this noise.
>>
>> Of course, lightning static is very random and difficult to reduce. My
>> use of HF is 40 and 75, so directional antennas are not an option - as
>> some suggested.
>>
>> Please do not answer with direct emails - the group needs to share in
>> this knowledge.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Bill W2BLC K-Line
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
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John Oppenheimer

Re: K3 - noise reduction query

In reply to this post by Bill-3

Hi Bill,

Are you using; NR, IF NB, or dsp NB?

John KN5L
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Bill-3

Re: K3 - noise reduction query

Actually - all of the above. I have spent a lot of time playing with all
the NB and NR settings (there are many combinations) and have
incorporated the ATT and reduced RF Gain into the mix. My understanding
is bringing in the RF at a lower level allows the various DSP devices to
get a running start at cleaning up the noise. So far I have had very
little success.

I am hoping someone out there has come up with a magic bullet setting
(or even a workable setting) that can be shared. This has been a summer
with loads of lightning static.

Thanks,

Bill W2BLC K-Line

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Bill-3

Re: K3 - noise reduction query

In reply to this post by kk4oyj

The K3 is far more capable than the 480 and has the entire line running
from it. I should not have to be content with the 480 - that is why I
have the K-Line.

That said, I am sure there is a setting out there that will work - I
have not found it - hence, the reason I ask.

Bill W2BLC K-Line

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Eduardo González

Re: K3 - noise reduction query

In reply to this post by kk4oyj

Probably K3 NB is not effective filtering your particular noise. Impulsive
noise is very hard of characterize because are infinite patterns possible.
I have filtered majority of arching noise but eventually not was possible.
You are tested NB analog and NB digital and combined both?
I remember a 11m radio (3-5825A) with a NB more effective than TS-440S,
with only a particular noise.
Recently I discovered a static noise effectively filtered by IC-736 but a
IC-781 wasn't capable
We must accepts not cheap equipment wasn't capable filter a type of noise
is frustrating.

Edu yv4gmj
On Jul 4, 2014 9:51 AM, "John, 9H5G" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Bill,
>
> I suggest you use your TS-480 rather than the K3 if that's what works for
> you. Personally, mine has been gathering dust since I got my K3.
>
> 73 de John, 9H5G
>
> > On Jul 4, 2014, at 3:36 PM, "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > The sad part is that My cheap little Kenwood TS480 does a much better
> > > job of cleaning up this noise.
> >
> > You are trolling for complaints on the Elecraft noise reduction - not
> > looking for a "solution". The Elecraft noise reduction is designed for
> > "smooth" noise - not impulse noise which is a noise blanker function.
> >
> > A smooth noise reduction system (LMS) operates by forming bandpass
> > filters around what it determines to be "signal" components and passing
> > just the "signal". You will have better results with lightning by
> > working with the noise blanker - probably on a "long" setting - as
> > it is designed to work with fast rise time signals.
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > ... Joe, W4TV
> >
> >
> >> On 2014-07-04 9:17 AM, Bill W2BLC wrote:
> >> It is lightning season and I have been floundering around the menus on
> >> the K3's DSP NR system. I have found no setting that really do much of
> >> clean-up on lightning static. I also have tried using the ATT and RF
> >> Gain settings also.
> >>
> >> The sad part is that My cheap little Kenwood TS480 does a much better
> >> job of cleaning up this noise.
> >>
> >> Of course, lightning static is very random and difficult to reduce. My
> >> use of HF is 40 and 75, so directional antennas are not an option - as
> >> some suggested.
> >>
> >> Please do not answer with direct emails - the group needs to share in
> >> this knowledge.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Bill W2BLC K-Line
> >>
> >>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> >>
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
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Eduardo González

Re: K3 - noise reduction query

Just now i'm suffering a impulsive noise not filtered by IC-7700,
IC-756proIII, IC-781, however K3 is capable filter this noise with a beside
artifacts, audio become distorted because only is filtered with aggressive
adjustments.

Edu
Yv4gmj
On Jul 4, 2014 10:30 AM, "Eduardo González" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Probably K3 NB is not effective filtering your particular noise. Impulsive
> noise is very hard of characterize because are infinite patterns possible.
> I have filtered majority of arching noise but eventually not was possible.
> You are tested NB analog and NB digital and combined both?
> I remember a 11m radio (3-5825A) with a NB more effective than TS-440S,
> with only a particular noise.
> Recently I discovered a static noise effectively filtered by IC-736 but a
> IC-781 wasn't capable
> We must accepts not cheap equipment wasn't capable filter a type of noise
> is frustrating.
>
> Edu yv4gmj
> On Jul 4, 2014 9:51 AM, "John, 9H5G" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Bill,
>>
>> I suggest you use your TS-480 rather than the K3 if that's what works for
>> you. Personally, mine has been gathering dust since I got my K3.
>>
>> 73 de John, 9H5G
>>
>> > On Jul 4, 2014, at 3:36 PM, "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > > The sad part is that My cheap little Kenwood TS480 does a much better
>> > > job of cleaning up this noise.
>> >
>> > You are trolling for complaints on the Elecraft noise reduction - not
>> > looking for a "solution". The Elecraft noise reduction is designed for
>> > "smooth" noise - not impulse noise which is a noise blanker function.
>> >
>> > A smooth noise reduction system (LMS) operates by forming bandpass
>> > filters around what it determines to be "signal" components and passing
>> > just the "signal". You will have better results with lightning by
>> > working with the noise blanker - probably on a "long" setting - as
>> > it is designed to work with fast rise time signals.
>> >
>> > 73,
>> >
>> > ... Joe, W4TV
>> >
>> >
>> >> On 2014-07-04 9:17 AM, Bill W2BLC wrote:
>> >> It is lightning season and I have been floundering around the menus on
>> >> the K3's DSP NR system. I have found no setting that really do much of
>> >> clean-up on lightning static. I also have tried using the ATT and RF
>> >> Gain settings also.
>> >>
>> >> The sad part is that My cheap little Kenwood TS480 does a much better
>> >> job of cleaning up this noise.
>> >>
>> >> Of course, lightning static is very random and difficult to reduce. My
>> >> use of HF is 40 and 75, so directional antennas are not an option - as
>> >> some suggested.
>> >>
>> >> Please do not answer with direct emails - the group needs to share in
>> >> this knowledge.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >>
>> >> Bill W2BLC K-Line
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ______________________________________________________________
>> >> Elecraft mailing list
>> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>> >>
>> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> >> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>> >>
>> > ______________________________________________________________
>> > Elecraft mailing list
>> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>> >
>> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
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>>
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>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 - noise reduction query

In reply to this post by Bill-3

Bill,

With the NB, it will often help to *increase* the RF gain or turn on the
preamp. The noise impulse must be above a threshold before it will
trigger the blanking function. Keep in mind that setting the NB so the
blanking pulse is wider may result in distorted signals. It does just
what the name suggests, it puts a blank *hole* in the received signal.

The NB is better for fast rise time impulse noise such as lightning and
automotive ignition noise. NR will do nothing to help that type noise.

I do not believe there is any one magic bullet. What works for one
noise may not work for the next one.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/4/2014 10:39 AM, Bill W2BLC wrote:

> Actually - all of the above. I have spent a lot of time playing with
> all the NB and NR settings (there are many combinations) and have
> incorporated the ATT and reduced RF Gain into the mix. My
> understanding is bringing in the RF at a lower level allows the
> various DSP devices to get a running start at cleaning up the noise.
> So far I have had very little success.
>
> I am hoping someone out there has come up with a magic bullet setting
> (or even a workable setting) that can be shared. This has been a
> summer with loads of lightning static.
>

Wes (N7WS)

Re: K3 - noise reduction query

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Assumes facts not in evidence and is uncalled for.

On 7/4/2014 6:36 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>
> > The sad part is that My cheap little Kenwood TS480 does a much better
> > job of cleaning up this noise.
>
> You are trolling for complaints on the Elecraft noise reduction - not
> looking for a "solution".

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Wes (N7WS)

Re: K3 - noise reduction query

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

While times and technology have changed in the last 37 years, a little paper I
wrote back then might be of interest. Sorry there is something missing near the
end. Publisher's fault, not mine.

http://sadxa.org/n7ws/Noise_Blanker.pdf

Wes N7WS

On 7/4/2014 8:43 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Bill,
>
> With the NB, it will often help to *increase* the RF gain or turn on the
> preamp. The noise impulse must be above a threshold before it will trigger
> the blanking function. Keep in mind that setting the NB so the blanking pulse
> is wider may result in distorted signals. It does just what the name suggests,
> it puts a blank *hole* in the received signal.
>
> The NB is better for fast rise time impulse noise such as lightning and
> automotive ignition noise. NR will do nothing to help that type noise.
>
> I do not believe there is any one magic bullet. What works for one noise may
> not work for the next one.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 - noise reduction query

In reply to this post by Wes (N7WS)

On 2014-07-04 4:23 PM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:
> Assumes facts not in evidence and is uncalled for.

Not true - first the question was asked and answered if nothing
else by the lack of responses. Second - the question was asking
for information to make the noise reduction do something that it
is not designed to do (reduce impulse noise) and comparing it to
a different product in an unfavorable light.

Asking a loaded question - one that has been answered previously -
in a manner to provoke a negative response is the very essence of
trolling.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2014-07-04 4:23 PM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:

> Assumes facts not in evidence and is uncalled for.
>
> On 7/4/2014 6:36 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>>
>> > The sad part is that My cheap little Kenwood TS480 does a much better
>> > job of cleaning up this noise.
>>
>> You are trolling for complaints on the Elecraft noise reduction - not
>> looking for a "solution".
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Bill-3

Re: K3 - noise reduction query

The question was not loaded and was not asked in a manner to provoke
anything - other than perhaps a helpful suggestion or two. Your
response(s) were uncalled for and are exactly what keeps me, and I am
sure others, from asking much of anything on this reflector. Your
response(s) were made in a spiteful and unhelpful manner - designed to
belittle me for asking the question I had.

The helpful spirit of this reflector was not shown today by you and my
experience was certainly lessened by your responses.

To those taking the time to send useful information, I thank you very
much. Same was appreciated will be read, understood, and tried.
Unfortunately, this experience has soured me enough that I see no
further reason to read this reflector - yeah, my sour grapes!

Bill W2BLC K-Line

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Re: K3 - noise reduction query

In reply to this post by Bill-3

If you are talking about SSB on 80 and 40 - I was playing with trying to
copy
the K2M on 40 M SSB last nite thru all the qrn - something to play with
is the SSB bandwidth and shifting the band- it makes a lot of difference
depending on how the guy has his audio tailored or how his voice is.

You also have a lot of AGC handles to play with - last night reducing
slope and playing with threshold made significant differences at times.

I don't think there is any magic bullet - conditions change and what works
one time or at one location will be different another time. What works for
one person . one location is very unlikely to be the solution at another
place.

I used TenTec Orions for about 10 years - they had an incredible NB for
clean line noise spikes BUT BUT if there were any strong signals anywhere
near (25 -50 khz or more) where you were listening , the blanker
was useless -but absolutely great on a quiet band.

I have never found a K3 line noise NB setting as good as the ORION BUT BUT
I can get decent blanking in crowded band conditions -- I will take that any
day over
unusable incredible . Years ago Collins used to drive their blanker with a
separate
noise RX at about 40 mhz - often wished the Orion did that .

NR is a whole different story - I have already been thru ten years of NR
discussions,
in my case for me NR F1-1 is as good as anything I have used on either CW
or SSB
but that is for me - a top flight contester friend across town with Orion
and K3
to A/B and who lives in a 10 dB quieter location has entirely different
opinions.
What works for him is entirely different for me.

NO MAGIC BULLET.

My two cents worth .

73 Hank K7HP

>I am hoping someone out there has come up with a magic bullet setting (or
>even a workable setting) that can be shared. This has been a summer with
>loads of lightning static.

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Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT

Re: K3 - noise reduction query

In reply to this post by Bill-3

Gentlemen, can we please play nice?

On 7/4/2014 3:18 PM, Bill W2BLC wrote:
> The question was not loaded and was not asked in a manner to provoke
> anything - other than perhaps a helpful suggestion or two. Your
> response(s) were uncalled for and are exactly what keeps me, and I am
> sure others, from asking much of anything on this reflector. Your
> response(s) were made in a spiteful and unhelpful manner - designed to
> belittle me for asking the question I had.
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Lyle Johnson

Re: K3 - noise reduction query

In reply to this post by HP

There is an incredible range of characteristics to unwanted "signals"
that we loosely call noise.

The K3 has an array of tools to fight noise, and sometimes they work
well in concert and sometimes better alone.

There is an IF blanker with adjustable threshold and pulse width - but
some impulse noise ay wider than the widest available setting and this
is likely to include lightning-based pulses.

There is also a DSP-based "IF" noise blanker.

There is a noise reduction, or denoiser function available with a wide
range of settings.

AGC settings can also affect the operation, and apparent effectiveness,
of the DSP-based noise reduction and to some degree the noise blanker.
There is a pulse function in the AGC system that you can enable or disable,

These settings may all interact to some degree.

As the station operator, you have a complete communications system to
manage: antenna, feedline, QTH, desired path, time of day and so forth.
The radio is one component of the system. The K3 offers a range of
tools for you to use, but in the end there is unlikely to be a "magic"
setting that works for everything. If there were, we would have set that
at the factory for you (and probably removed the settable "knobs" for
you to adjust)!

I suggest that if you are having a severe noise problem, you experiment
with the various settings - including AGC threshold and slope and PRE
and ATT settings as part of the tool set - and note which work best for
you in your system and under which types of noise and mode(s) of operation.

You won't hurt anything, and you may learn a lot.

And, yes, some radios may work better than others with some types of
noise under some circumstances.

73,

Lyle KK7P (still learning after all of these years...)

> NO MAGIC BULLET.
>
>> I am hoping someone out there has come up with a magic bullet setting
>> (or even a workable setting) that can be shared. This has been a
>> summer with loads of lightning static.
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Johnny Siu

K3 - noise reduction query

I find the noise reduction NR in KX3 is much easier to use and gives a better effect than NR in K3. I just wonder whether other elecrafters feel the same.

Regrettably, none of the 4 x 8 =32 settings in the NR of K3 gives the performance in par with the NR in KX3.

My observations only relate to SSB operation. I always try to find a way to effectively use the NR in K3 but failed.

Perhaps, experts here could guide me to the right way to use the NR in K3.

73

Johnny VR2XMC

________________________________
寄件人︰ Lyle Johnson <[hidden email]>
收件人︰ [hidden email]
傳送日期︰ 2014年07月5日 (週六) 12:47 PM
主題︰ Re: [Elecraft] K3 - noise reduction query

There is an incredible range of characteristics to unwanted "signals"
that we loosely call noise.

The K3 has an array of tools to fight noise, and sometimes they work
well in concert and sometimes better alone.

There is an IF blanker with adjustable threshold and pulse width - but
some impulse noise ay wider than the widest available setting and this
is likely to include lightning-based pulses.

There is also a DSP-based "IF" noise blanker.

There is a noise reduction, or denoiser function available with a wide
range of settings.

AGC settings can also affect the operation, and apparent effectiveness,
of the DSP-based noise reduction and to some degree the noise blanker.
There is a pulse function in the AGC system that you can enable or disable,

These settings may all interact to some degree.

As the station operator, you have a complete communications system to
manage: antenna, feedline, QTH, desired path, time of day and so forth.
The radio is one component of the system. The K3 offers a range of
tools for you to use, but in the end there is unlikely to be a "magic"
setting that works for everything. If there were, we would have set that
at the factory for you (and probably removed the settable "knobs" for
you to adjust)!

I suggest that if you are having a severe noise problem, you experiment
with the various settings - including AGC threshold and slope and PRE
and ATT settings as part of the tool set - and note which work best for
you in your system and under which types of noise and mode(s) of operation.

You won't hurt anything, and you may learn a lot.

And, yes, some radios may work better than others with some types of
noise under some circumstances.

73,

Lyle KK7P (still learning after all of these years...)

> NO MAGIC BULLET.
>
>> I am hoping someone out there has come up with a magic bullet setting
>> (or even a workable setting) that can be shared. This has been a
>> summer with loads of lightning static.
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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: K3 - noise reduction query

Administrator

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Joe - Please stop posting personal criticisms of other list posters. This is both rude and against list policy. The Op in this case was asking a reasonable opinion.

Eric
List Moderator
elecraft.com
_..._

> On Jul 4, 2014, at 11:18 PM, "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On 2014-07-04 4:23 PM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:
> > Assumes facts not in evidence and is uncalled for.
>
> Not true - first the question was asked and answered if nothing
> else by the lack of responses. Second - the question was asking
> for information to make the noise reduction do something that it
> is not designed to do (reduce impulse noise) and comparing it to
> a different product in an unfavorable light.
>
> Asking a loaded question - one that has been answered previously -
> in a manner to provoke a negative response is the very essence of
> trolling.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>> On 2014-07-04 4:23 PM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:
>> Assumes facts not in evidence and is uncalled for.
>>
>>> On 7/4/2014 6:36 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>>>
>>> > The sad part is that My cheap little Kenwood TS480 does a much better
>>> > job of cleaning up this noise.
>>>
>>> You are trolling for complaints on the Elecraft noise reduction - not
>>> looking for a "solution".
>>
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Jim Brown-10

Re: K3 - noise reduction query

In reply to this post by Johnny Siu

On 7/4/2014 10:13 PM, Johnny Siu wrote:
> I find the noise reduction NR in KX3 is much easier to use and gives a better effect than NR in K3

This may be the result of the DSP used in the KX3, which was designed
several years after the K3. Moore's Law, and so on.

My neighbor, W6GJB, feels that the KX3 decoders for RTTY and PSK work
better than the K3 decoders. I don't have enough experience to offer a
judgement call.

73, Jim K9YC
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