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K3 on SSB

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Edward A. Dauer

K3 on SSB

Previous posts suggest a consensus, or at least a widely-held opinion, that the K3 is below par on SSB. I have owned one for years, using it more than 95% on CW, and on SSB in only one contest and a few casual ragchews and nets. In what ways is the K3 inferior to others on SSB? Yes, this is a question, not an argument. And is the K4 designed to correct whatever those flaws may be? I have not yet ordered a K4. Knowing this info would be helpful to that decision. Tnx,

Ted, KN1CBR
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Rick Bates, NK7I

Re: K3 on SSB

Ah, the brand wars re-emerge again...

While every brand must be tailored to the operators voice and use (rag chew vs DXing), it has been my observation that the K3 is certainly a cleaner transmitter on phone than most Yaesu transmitters which are generally wider using both side bands (easily seen on a P3) if not precisely set up. Some contesters prefer that, as it ‘opens up’ bandwidth, giving them a clear space to call.

It’s either a ‘feature’ of how the Yaesu is set up or several poor operators or the brand. I don’t suggest the brand at all anymore, when asked.

The Anan and Flex are among the cleanest, sheer cliff walls of audio.

Rick NK7I

Small phone keyboard, smell Czech corruptions are inevitable

> On Mar 29, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Dauer, Edward <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Previous posts suggest a consensus, or at least a widely-held opinion, that the K3 is below par on SSB. I have owned one for years, using it more than 95% on CW, and on SSB in only one contest and a few casual ragchews and nets. In what ways is the K3 inferior to others on SSB? Yes, this is a question, not an argument. And is the K4 designed to correct whatever those flaws may be? I have not yet ordered a K4. Knowing this info would be helpful to that decision. Tnx,
>
> Ted, KN1CBR
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George Thornton

Re: K3 on SSB

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

I have owned a K3 forever. I am not myself a contester except on Field Day.

Most performance measurements for the K3(s) show it still in the top group in terms of ability to hear weak signals adjacent to a stronger signal, an important measure for performance in a contest. Until recently they were in the #1 position or near #1. Now some newer rigs have barely exceeded the K3S performance by a very small amount, we will see how the K4 performs, I suspect Elecraft will be at the top of the heap again. I am not sure you can actually tell the difference in performance at this level.

The main criticism as I understand it with SSB is that the K3 produces a harsher sound on SSB than some other rigs. While this will not interfere with your ability to operate, it can irritate the listener over time.

You can moderate that somewhat through EQ settings, but I do think that some other rig manufacturers have been noted for more pleasant sounding audio.

For me, long ago I found some really nice speakers (Sounds Sweet, no longer in business) that do an excellent job of making my K3 with updated synthesizers sound pleasant.

I am looking forward to the K4 getting released and tested.

I will probably not be in the market to purchase anything major until this coronavirus situation stabilizes and the economy gets back to normal.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Dauer, Edward
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 10:48 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 on SSB

Previous posts suggest a consensus, or at least a widely-held opinion, that the K3 is below par on SSB. I have owned one for years, using it more than 95% on CW, and on SSB in only one contest and a few casual ragchews and nets. In what ways is the K3 inferior to others on SSB? Yes, this is a question, not an argument. And is the K4 designed to correct whatever those flaws may be? I have not yet ordered a K4. Knowing this info would be helpful to that decision. Tnx,

Ted, KN1CBR
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Ignacy

Re: K3 on SSB

Many contesters with large budgets use K3 to win or obtain top scores in SSB
contests. This means that K3 is competitive on SSB with other radios, and
its flaws in SSB if any are balanced by its advantages.
Early K3 had large AF distortions, fixed by a simple modification.
Ignacy, NO9E

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Scott Manthe-2

Re: K3 on SSB

When I was active, I often got unsolicited positive comments on my audio
quality. Partly due to my great voice, I'm sure, but the radio didn't
wreck the raw material.

73,
Scott N9AA

On 3/30/20 9:17 PM, Ignacy wrote:
> Many contesters with large budgets use K3 to win or obtain top scores in SSB
> contests. This means that K3 is competitive on SSB with other radios, and
> its flaws in SSB if any are balanced by its advantages.
> Early K3 had large AF distortions, fixed by a simple modification.
> Ignacy, NO9E
>
>
>
>

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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: K3 on SSB

Having used a K3 for a few weeks sometime back, and now having a K3S on
my desk for about 3 years, I can attest that there is a noted
improvement and difference in the SSB receive audio with my K3S.   I did
wait on buying a K3S but I did so, only after learning of the improved
SSB receive audio.

As to transmit audio, I find there are several critical areas under the
users control that do affect the SSB transmitted audio. I am not a fan
of external EQ and Processing. Lousy audio going in which is EQ'd and
Processed sounds like lousy audio that is EQ'd and processed. Otherwise
stated, one can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

Factors which affect audio are namely mike technique and room
acoustics. And to some noted extent the adjustment or setting of the
K3S internal EQ.   In order to determine mike technique one needs to be
able to record and playback their transmitted audio. You can't do it
with headphones and the monitor system. Carefully listen to the
recording. Adjust and repeat as needed. In this process one needs to
move the mike, thus changing mike-to-mouth distance along with talking
direct into the face of the mike. The frequency response of most mikes
will change as one moves off to the side of the mike. Likewise, lip
smacks, nasal noise, denture buzz, and others is affected by
mike-to-mouth distance. If it is a dynamic mike, closer to the mike
will enhance the lower end. Back away and the low end goes down.   You
can use this to your advantage, understanding the artifacts of
mike-to-mouth distance.

If one has any fan noise, room reverberation or HVAC noise, I suggest
working closer to the mike and adjusting the MIC level and/or Speech
Processor levels down. Excessive processing brings up unwanted noises.
    Of course changing or improving room acoustics is another advantage,
if this can be done. {Topic for another discussion.}

As recommended by Bob Heil, Jim Brown and others including me. FYI -
I'm using a dynamic professional grade Shure SM58 mike direct to the
radio. The TX EQ is as follows: 50 Hz -16dB, 100 Hz -16dB, 200 Hz
-16dB, 400 Hz, -12dB, 800 Hz -0dB, 1.6kHz -0dB, 2.4 kHz +3dB, 3.2 kHz
+6dB.   ESSB is OFF. As others have indicated, and as I have
determined, using the record and play back method described above, this
sounds really good.   And my voice is no Don Pardeau either! I work
directly on axis and about 1" from the face of the mike.   With another
mike brand/model, I find that I must work 4" or about one fist distance
from the face of the mike.

There is no short coming of the K3S receive or transmit audio. It is
excellent communications audio.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 3/30/2020 8:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:

> When I was active, I often got unsolicited positive comments on my
> audio quality. Partly due to my great voice, I'm sure, but the radio
> didn't wreck the raw material.
>
> 73,
> Scott N9AA
>
> On 3/30/20 9:17 PM, Ignacy wrote:
>> Many contesters with large budgets use K3 to win or obtain top scores
>> in SSB
>> contests. This means that K3 is competitive on SSB with other radios,
>> and
>> its flaws in SSB if any are balanced by its advantages.
>> Early K3 had large AF distortions, fixed by a simple modification.
>> Ignacy, NO9E
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: K3 on SSB

I believe what Frank is referring to is not Tx audio, but receive audio during times of very heavy band loading, which pretty much occurs only in busy contests such as CQ WPX SSB last weekend. During these times stations are basically on top of each other or very closely spaced. We tend to hear stations from many different areas simultaneously. Here in CA I was hearing JA, US, EU and South American stations at the same time on 20 meters. After working the strong stations it is the weaker ones that become very important. With the default settings things can get quite jumbled and the audio is not clean and crisp. I tend to ride the HI and LO cut bandpass knobs along with RF Gain during this time to get an advantage with blocking out stations as best I can. K3/K3S AGC also plays into this situation. N6TV has done quite a bit of work with AGC and has some interesting suggestions that improve the receive characteristics with many stations in the passband. The problem Bob found was that close-in stations would cause AGC action that would make the stations blend together. The best description is that you simply heard “mush”. With the work that was done and improvements in firmware much of this has been improved, although I’m not sure that it can ever be completely eliminated. This is a trait common to most modern radios, although they tend to differ in the amount of mush and distortion that occur. The key is to know your radio and apply settings that improve its characteristics. Note that all radios have compromises that tend to only be heard in extreme conditions such as we see in contesting.

All of this has been discussed on the reflector some time ago. In the Nabble archives look up “K3 Receiver Mush”.

As a contester, it is very important that we know and understand all aspects of our stations, including the radios to get peak performance. The best contesters get the most from their radios; they can only do that by knowing them. Contesters that are new to a big station may not know the details of the radio in front of them, which says more about the contester than the radio.

I chose the K3 and K3S for my station because they were the best available. I still believe that, and use them in every contest I enter. Now my antennas could definitely use some improvement…

73!
Jack, W6FB

> On Mar 31, 2020, at 8:12 AM, Bob McGraw K4TAX <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Having used a K3 for a few weeks sometime back, and now having a K3S on my desk for about 3 years, I can attest that there is a noted improvement and difference in the SSB receive audio with my K3S. I did wait on buying a K3S but I did so, only after learning of the improved SSB receive audio.
>
> As to transmit audio, I find there are several critical areas under the users control that do affect the SSB transmitted audio. I am not a fan of external EQ and Processing. Lousy audio going in which is EQ'd and Processed sounds like lousy audio that is EQ'd and processed. Otherwise stated, one can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
>
> Factors which affect audio are namely mike technique and room acoustics. And to some noted extent the adjustment or setting of the K3S internal EQ. In order to determine mike technique one needs to be able to record and playback their transmitted audio. You can't do it with headphones and the monitor system. Carefully listen to the recording. Adjust and repeat as needed. In this process one needs to move the mike, thus changing mike-to-mouth distance along with talking direct into the face of the mike. The frequency response of most mikes will change as one moves off to the side of the mike. Likewise, lip smacks, nasal noise, denture buzz, and others is affected by mike-to-mouth distance. If it is a dynamic mike, closer to the mike will enhance the lower end. Back away and the low end goes down. You can use this to your advantage, understanding the artifacts of mike-to-mouth distance.
>
> If one has any fan noise, room reverberation or HVAC noise, I suggest working closer to the mike and adjusting the MIC level and/or Speech Processor levels down. Excessive processing brings up unwanted noises. Of course changing or improving room acoustics is another advantage, if this can be done. {Topic for another discussion.}
>
> As recommended by Bob Heil, Jim Brown and others including me. FYI - I'm using a dynamic professional grade Shure SM58 mike direct to the radio. The TX EQ is as follows: 50 Hz -16dB, 100 Hz -16dB, 200 Hz -16dB, 400 Hz, -12dB, 800 Hz -0dB, 1.6kHz -0dB, 2.4 kHz +3dB, 3.2 kHz +6dB. ESSB is OFF. As others have indicated, and as I have determined, using the record and play back method described above, this sounds really good. And my voice is no Don Pardeau either! I work directly on axis and about 1" from the face of the mike. With another mike brand/model, I find that I must work 4" or about one fist distance from the face of the mike.
>
> There is no short coming of the K3S receive or transmit audio. It is excellent communications audio.
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
> On 3/30/2020 8:44 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
>> When I was active, I often got unsolicited positive comments on my audio quality. Partly due to my great voice, I'm sure, but the radio didn't wreck the raw material.
>>
>> 73,
>> Scott N9AA
>>
>> On 3/30/20 9:17 PM, Ignacy wrote:
>>> Many contesters with large budgets use K3 to win or obtain top scores in SSB
>>> contests. This means that K3 is competitive on SSB with other radios, and
>>> its flaws in SSB if any are balanced by its advantages.
>>> Early K3 had large AF distortions, fixed by a simple modification.
>>> Ignacy, NO9E
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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alorona

Re: K3 on SSB

Jack beat me to the comment I was going to make. Far be it from me to contradict a seasoned contester like W3LPL, nor to dismiss the comments of many others, but I wonder how many "the K3 sounds bad on SSB" comments occur because of operator error in setting the AGC and gain controls improperly? In my experience, a number of such declarations are due to not knowing how to set the controls to optimum. Then, at some point, these perceptions attain legend status.

Now, if W3LPL's assertion is that the need to know *how* to set those controls properly poses a problem for contesters, that could be a valid point. If, for instance, the newest Flex 1,000,000 just works out of the box, with the default settings, that may appeal to contesters and I understand that.

However, it's never bothered me that the default AGC parameters of a K3 aren't optimum for me... that's why the controls are variable, no? I've learned to set them to obtain incredible SSB readability. My settings aren't magical; I got them from others and are based on my own measurements (which others have dismissed over the years, I don't know why).

Al W6LX

>>> With the default settings things can get quite jumbled and the audio is not clean and crisp.

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John Simmons

Re: K3 on SSB

Al,

How about sharing your settings?

-de John NI0K

Al Lorona wrote on 3/31/2020 1:47 PM:

> Jack beat me to the comment I was going to make. Far be it from me to contradict a seasoned contester like W3LPL, nor to dismiss the comments of many others, but I wonder how many "the K3 sounds bad on SSB" comments occur because of operator error in setting the AGC and gain controls improperly? In my experience, a number of such declarations are due to not knowing how to set the controls to optimum. Then, at some point, these perceptions attain legend status.
>
> Now, if W3LPL's assertion is that the need to know *how* to set those controls properly poses a problem for contesters, that could be a valid point. If, for instance, the newest Flex 1,000,000 just works out of the box, with the default settings, that may appeal to contesters and I understand that.
>
> However, it's never bothered me that the default AGC parameters of a K3 aren't optimum for me... that's why the controls are variable, no? I've learned to set them to obtain incredible SSB readability. My settings aren't magical; I got them from others and are based on my own measurements (which others have dismissed over the years, I don't know why).
>
> Al W6LX
>
>
>>>> With the default settings things can get quite jumbled and the audio is not clean and crisp.
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