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K3 on motorboat.

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Frank C Richards

K3 on motorboat.

Having been in the marine electronics business I was able to successfully
install many HF radios on boats from large steel commercial fishing boats
to a small 28 ft fiberglass fishing boat and sailboats.
Anything metal , engine, fuel tanks,rudder posts,thru hulls, morse control
cables,intercoolers outside of the hull,rub rail sections jumpered together
to form one continuous loop. Dynaplates help but will not work well as the
only source of ground. I once saw a carbon brush riding thru spring tension
on a prop shaft, tying the prop to ground.
It can be tricky as sometimes you get ground loops and you must be aware
of currents that can cause electrolysis.
For the antenna we primarily used a 23 ft whip, sometimes on large vessels
a longwire.
This was before synthesized radios and autouners. My favorite radio was the
Drake TRM which had a built in manual tuner and a 50 ohm output if you
wanted
to use a trapped vertical.
On commercial fishing boats you had to leave the dock so that the
outriggers
could be lowered and trawl doors put in the water as this changed the tuning
quite a bit from being at the dock. Interestingly enough I think the
toughest
time I had tuning was on an 85 ft steel shrimp boat even with all that
metal.
.
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Robert Sands

Re: K3 on motorboat.

Verticals require more attention to ground but the goal should be to
increase the antenna current, thus increasing radiated signal. ground into
water seems like a waste but has DC grounding value. I use hung vertical
dipoles (20 and 15) with no need for ground and they work amazingly well. I
have tried letting wire or zinc ribbon strips drop into saltwater to
ground verticals and there is no value I can detect over something simpler,
like tying to existing structures or running a above water wire
counterpoise. Vertical dipoles require no Rf ground and propagate at low
angle and high efficiency. Far effects over water are what counts, more
than grounding, except in verticals to get higher antenna current.
K7VO

On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 7:38 AM Frank C Richards <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Having been in the marine electronics business I was able to successfully
> install many HF radios on boats from large steel commercial fishing boats
> to a small 28 ft fiberglass fishing boat and sailboats.
> Anything metal , engine, fuel tanks,rudder posts,thru hulls, morse control
> cables,intercoolers outside of the hull,rub rail sections jumpered together
> to form one continuous loop. Dynaplates help but will not work well as the
> only source of ground. I once saw a carbon brush riding thru spring tension
> on a prop shaft, tying the prop to ground.
> It can be tricky as sometimes you get ground loops and you must be aware
> of currents that can cause electrolysis.
> For the antenna we primarily used a 23 ft whip, sometimes on large vessels
> a longwire.
> This was before synthesized radios and autouners. My favorite radio was
> the
> Drake TRM which had a built in manual tuner and a 50 ohm output if you
> wanted
> to use a trapped vertical.
> On commercial fishing boats you had to leave the dock so that the
> outriggers
> could be lowered and trawl doors put in the water as this changed the
> tuning
> quite a bit from being at the dock. Interestingly enough I think the
> toughest
> time I had tuning was on an 85 ft steel shrimp boat even with all that
> metal.
> .
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

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Robert Sands
K7VO
Olympia, WA

W2xj

Re: K3 on motorboat.

i think there is an esthetic problem that is more important.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 9, 2020, at 3:24 PM, Robert Sands <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Verticals require more attention to ground but the goal should be to
> increase the antenna current, thus increasing radiated signal. ground into
> water seems like a waste but has DC grounding value. I use hung vertical
> dipoles (20 and 15) with no need for ground and they work amazingly well. I
> have tried letting wire or zinc ribbon strips drop into saltwater to
> ground verticals and there is no value I can detect over something simpler,
> like tying to existing structures or running a above water wire
> counterpoise. Vertical dipoles require no Rf ground and propagate at low
> angle and high efficiency. Far effects over water are what counts, more
> than grounding, except in verticals to get higher antenna current.
> K7VO
>
>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 7:38 AM Frank C Richards <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Having been in the marine electronics business I was able to successfully
>> install many HF radios on boats from large steel commercial fishing boats
>> to a small 28 ft fiberglass fishing boat and sailboats.
>> Anything metal , engine, fuel tanks,rudder posts,thru hulls, morse control
>> cables,intercoolers outside of the hull,rub rail sections jumpered together
>> to form one continuous loop. Dynaplates help but will not work well as the
>> only source of ground. I once saw a carbon brush riding thru spring tension
>> on a prop shaft, tying the prop to ground.
>> It can be tricky as sometimes you get ground loops and you must be aware
>> of currents that can cause electrolysis.
>> For the antenna we primarily used a 23 ft whip, sometimes on large vessels
>> a longwire.
>> This was before synthesized radios and autouners. My favorite radio was
>> the
>> Drake TRM which had a built in manual tuner and a 50 ohm output if you
>> wanted
>> to use a trapped vertical.
>> On commercial fishing boats you had to leave the dock so that the
>> outriggers
>> could be lowered and trawl doors put in the water as this changed the
>> tuning
>> quite a bit from being at the dock. Interestingly enough I think the
>> toughest
>> time I had tuning was on an 85 ft steel shrimp boat even with all that
>> metal.
>> .
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Barry K3NDM

Re: K3 on motorboat.

In reply to this post by Robert Sands

Full size verticals are hard to do on small power boats. And elevated
grounds are also hard. Water grounds are usually the most practical, but
fresh water is not great. I counsel inverted Vs as they are ground
independent. On power boats that too is a tough trick, but it can be
done, depending on size of the boat. A 40 meter dipole can be made by
bending the ends and can be fed with coax through a 4:1 current balun if
the run to the radio is not too great. It will require a fiberglass mast
bracketed to the fly bridge. There are several suppliers of good, strong
push up masts available; I wouldn't go more than about 25 feet which
should put the feed about 31 or so feet over the water,m close to a 1/4
wave on 40. This arrangement will allow all band operation above 40 with
a K3 as the tuner is just plain magic.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

------ Original Message ------
From: "Robert Sands" <[hidden email]>
To: "Frank C Richards" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Elecraft Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 6/9/2020 3:22:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 on motorboat.

>Verticals require more attention to ground but the goal should be to
>increase the antenna current, thus increasing radiated signal. ground into
>water seems like a waste but has DC grounding value. I use hung vertical
>dipoles (20 and 15) with no need for ground and they work amazingly well. I
>have tried letting wire or zinc ribbon strips drop into saltwater to
>ground verticals and there is no value I can detect over something simpler,
>like tying to existing structures or running a above water wire
>counterpoise. Vertical dipoles require no Rf ground and propagate at low
>angle and high efficiency. Far effects over water are what counts, more
>than grounding, except in verticals to get higher antenna current.
>K7VO
>
>On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 7:38 AM Frank C Richards <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Having been in the marine electronics business I was able to successfully
>> install many HF radios on boats from large steel commercial fishing boats
>> to a small 28 ft fiberglass fishing boat and sailboats.
>> Anything metal , engine, fuel tanks,rudder posts,thru hulls, morse control
>> cables,intercoolers outside of the hull,rub rail sections jumpered together
>> to form one continuous loop. Dynaplates help but will not work well as the
>> only source of ground. I once saw a carbon brush riding thru spring tension
>> on a prop shaft, tying the prop to ground.
>> It can be tricky as sometimes you get ground loops and you must be aware
>> of currents that can cause electrolysis.
>> For the antenna we primarily used a 23 ft whip, sometimes on large vessels
>> a longwire.
>> This was before synthesized radios and autouners. My favorite radio was
>> the
>> Drake TRM which had a built in manual tuner and a 50 ohm output if you
>> wanted
>> to use a trapped vertical.
>> On commercial fishing boats you had to leave the dock so that the
>> outriggers
>> could be lowered and trawl doors put in the water as this changed the
>> tuning
>> quite a bit from being at the dock. Interestingly enough I think the
>> toughest
>> time I had tuning was on an 85 ft steel shrimp boat even with all that
>> metal.
>> .
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>______________________________________________________________
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>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Jim Brown-10

Re: K3 on motorboat.

On 6/9/2020 3:13 PM, Barry wrote:
> I counsel inverted Vs as they are ground independent.

Not really -- the earth in the near field is lossy (including fresh
water) and in the reflection from earth in the far field combines with
the direct signal to produce the vertical pattern. Almost any horizontal
antenna for 40M or lower that we can rig on a small boat will be a low
one, so will be a high angle antenna, over fresh water, a lossy one. In
general, verticals are better than than horizontal antennas over water,
fresh or salt, because of the far field reflection, as long as a
suitable counterpoise is provided.

73, Jim K9YC
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W2xj

Re: K3 on motorboat.

In reply to this post by Barry K3NDM

aesthetics?

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 9, 2020, at 6:14 PM, Barry <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Full size verticals are hard to do on small power boats. And elevated grounds are also hard. Water grounds are usually the most practical, but fresh water is not great. I counsel inverted Vs as they are ground independent. On power boats that too is a tough trick, but it can be done, depending on size of the boat. A 40 meter dipole can be made by bending the ends and can be fed with coax through a 4:1 current balun if the run to the radio is not too great. It will require a fiberglass mast bracketed to the fly bridge. There are several suppliers of good, strong push up masts available; I wouldn't go more than about 25 feet which should put the feed about 31 or so feet over the water,m close to a 1/4 wave on 40. This arrangement will allow all band operation above 40 with a K3 as the tuner is just plain magic.
>
> 73,
> Barry
> K3NDM
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Robert Sands" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Frank C Richards" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "Elecraft Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: 6/9/2020 3:22:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 on motorboat.
>
>> Verticals require more attention to ground but the goal should be to
>> increase the antenna current, thus increasing radiated signal. ground into
>> water seems like a waste but has DC grounding value. I use hung vertical
>> dipoles (20 and 15) with no need for ground and they work amazingly well. I
>> have tried letting wire or zinc ribbon strips drop into saltwater to
>> ground verticals and there is no value I can detect over something simpler,
>> like tying to existing structures or running a above water wire
>> counterpoise. Vertical dipoles require no Rf ground and propagate at low
>> angle and high efficiency. Far effects over water are what counts, more
>> than grounding, except in verticals to get higher antenna current.
>> K7VO
>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 7:38 AM Frank C Richards <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Having been in the marine electronics business I was able to successfully
>>> install many HF radios on boats from large steel commercial fishing boats
>

Barry K3NDM

Re: K3 on motorboat.

This will look like the 23' HF whip used by boaters and the wire can be
barely seen. I can't see how this would look much worse than what
boaters already do for HF except this will be ground independent.

------ Original Message ------
From: "W2xj" <[hidden email]>
To: "Barry" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Robert Sands" <[hidden email]>; "Frank C Richards"
<[hidden email]>; "Elecraft Discussion List"
<[hidden email]>
Sent: 6/9/2020 6:32:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 on motorboat.

>aesthetics?
>
>Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Jun 9, 2020, at 6:14 PM, Barry <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Full size verticals are hard to do on small power boats. And elevated grounds are also hard. Water grounds are usually the most practical, but fresh water is not great. I counsel inverted Vs as they are ground independent. On power boats that too is a tough trick, but it can be done, depending on size of the boat. A 40 meter dipole can be made by bending the ends and can be fed with coax through a 4:1 current balun if the run to the radio is not too great. It will require a fiberglass mast bracketed to the fly bridge. There are several suppliers of good, strong push up masts available; I wouldn't go more than about 25 feet which should put the feed about 31 or so feet over the water,m close to a 1/4 wave on 40. This arrangement will allow all band operation above 40 with a K3 as the tuner is just plain magic.
>>
>> 73,
>> Barry
>> K3NDM
>>
>> ------ Original Message ------
>> From: "Robert Sands" <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Frank C Richards" <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: "Elecraft Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: 6/9/2020 3:22:27 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 on motorboat.
>>
>>> Verticals require more attention to ground but the goal should be to
>>> increase the antenna current, thus increasing radiated signal. ground into
>>> water seems like a waste but has DC grounding value. I use hung vertical
>>> dipoles (20 and 15) with no need for ground and they work amazingly well. I
>>> have tried letting wire or zinc ribbon strips drop into saltwater to
>>> ground verticals and there is no value I can detect over something simpler,
>>> like tying to existing structures or running a above water wire
>>> counterpoise. Vertical dipoles require no Rf ground and propagate at low
>>> angle and high efficiency. Far effects over water are what counts, more
>>> than grounding, except in verticals to get higher antenna current.
>>> K7VO
>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 7:38 AM Frank C Richards <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Having been in the marine electronics business I was able to successfully
>>>> install many HF radios on boats from large steel commercial fishing boats
>>
>

W2xj

Re: K3 on motorboat.

check with his wife.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 9, 2020, at 6:44 PM, Barry <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This will look like the 23' HF whip used by boaters and the wire can be barely seen. I can't see how this would look much worse than what boaters already do for HF except this will be ground independent.
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "W2xj" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Barry" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "Robert Sands" <[hidden email]>; "Frank C Richards" <[hidden email]>; "Elecraft Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: 6/9/2020 6:32:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 on motorboat.
>
>> aesthetics?
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>>> On Jun 9, 2020, at 6:14 PM, Barry <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Full size verticals are hard to do on small power boats. And elevated grounds are also hard. Water grounds are usually the most practical, but fresh water is not great. I counsel inverted Vs as they are ground independent. On power boats that too is a tough trick, but it can be done, depending on size of the boat. A 40 meter dipole can be made by bending the ends and can be fed with coax through a 4:1 current balun if the run to the radio is not too great. It will require a fiberglass mast bracketed to the fly bridge. There are several suppliers of good, strong push up masts available; I wouldn't go more than about 25 feet which should put the feed about 31 or so feet over the water,m close to a 1/4 wave on 40. This arrangement will allow all band operation above 40 with a K3 as the tuner is just plain magic.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Barry
>>> K3NDM
>>>
>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>> From: "Robert Sands" <[hidden email]>
>>> To: "Frank C Richards" <[hidden email]>
>>> Cc: "Elecraft Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>>> Sent: 6/9/2020 3:22:27 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 on motorboat.
>>>
>>>> Verticals require more attention to ground but the goal should be to
>>>> increase the antenna current, thus increasing radiated signal. ground into
>>>> water seems like a waste but has DC grounding value. I use hung vertical
>>>> dipoles (20 and 15) with no need for ground and they work amazingly well. I
>>>> have tried letting wire or zinc ribbon strips drop into saltwater to
>>>> ground verticals and there is no value I can detect over something simpler,
>>>> like tying to existing structures or running a above water wire
>>>> counterpoise. Vertical dipoles require no Rf ground and propagate at low
>>>> angle and high efficiency. Far effects over water are what counts, more
>>>> than grounding, except in verticals to get higher antenna current.
>>>> K7VO
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 7:38 AM Frank C Richards <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Having been in the marine electronics business I was able to successfully
>>>>> install many HF radios on boats from large steel commercial fishing boats
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>

Barry LaZar

Re: K3 on motorboat.

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

First, electrical engineering is not a science, it's an art as
compromises must be made. Fresh water is a terrible ground, so using a
ground independent antenna is a compromise. Yes, a 1/4 wave antenna over
ground will not be great for DX, but does allowm entering the 40 meter
nets. Having said that, the antenna will be a 1/2 Wave on 20; that will
lower the main lobe. You may not get the re-enforcement over fresh
water, but it's more radiated power than using a vertical with a very
poor ground system. We can debate the phenomena, but no mater a
compromise is going to be required. Like I said at the top, EE is an art
and not science and this artist has chosen to approach a solution swet
this way. I'm quite sure there are other artists who may have other
compromises.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

------ Original Message ------
From: "Jim Brown" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: 6/9/2020 6:24:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 on motorboat.

>On 6/9/2020 3:13 PM, Barry wrote:
>>I counsel inverted Vs as they are ground independent.
>
>Not really -- the earth in the near field is lossy (including fresh water) and in the reflection from earth in the far field combines with the direct signal to produce the vertical pattern. Almost any horizontal antenna for 40M or lower that we can rig on a small boat will be a low one, so will be a high angle antenna, over fresh water, a lossy one. In general, verticals are better than than horizontal antennas over water, fresh or salt, because of the far field reflection, as long as a suitable counterpoise is provided.
>
>73, Jim K9YC
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>Message delivered to [hidden email]

Michael Chowning-2

Re: K3 on motorboat.

In reply to this post by W2xj

Aesthetics, yes. Cost? Gulp!

https://advancedhfsolutions.com/ <https://advancedhfsolutions.com/>

Mike, N8TTR

> On Jun 9, 2020, at 6:32 PM, W2xj <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> aesthetics?
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Jun 9, 2020, at 6:14 PM, Barry <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Full size verticals are hard to do on small power boats. And elevated grounds are also hard. Water grounds are usually the most practical, but fresh water is not great. I counsel inverted Vs as they are ground independent. On power boats that too is a tough trick, but it can be done, depending on size of the boat. A 40 meter dipole can be made by bending the ends and can be fed with coax through a 4:1 current balun if the run to the radio is not too great. It will require a fiberglass mast bracketed to the fly bridge. There are several suppliers of good, strong push up masts available; I wouldn't go more than about 25 feet which should put the feed about 31 or so feet over the water,m close to a 1/4 wave on 40. This arrangement will allow all band operation above 40 with a K3 as the tuner is just plain magic.
>>
>> 73,
>> Barry
>> K3NDM
>>
>> ------ Original Message ------
>> From: "Robert Sands" <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Frank C Richards" <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: "Elecraft Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: 6/9/2020 3:22:27 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 on motorboat.
>>
>>> Verticals require more attention to ground but the goal should be to
>>> increase the antenna current, thus increasing radiated signal. ground into
>>> water seems like a waste but has DC grounding value. I use hung vertical
>>> dipoles (20 and 15) with no need for ground and they work amazingly well. I
>>> have tried letting wire or zinc ribbon strips drop into saltwater to
>>> ground verticals and there is no value I can detect over something simpler,
>>> like tying to existing structures or running a above water wire
>>> counterpoise. Vertical dipoles require no Rf ground and propagate at low
>>> angle and high efficiency. Far effects over water are what counts, more
>>> than grounding, except in verticals to get higher antenna current.
>>> K7VO
>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 7:38 AM Frank C Richards <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Having been in the marine electronics business I was able to successfully
>>>> install many HF radios on boats from large steel commercial fishing boats
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

k6dgw

Re: K3 on motorboat.

Hmmm ... "Isotropic spherical?" "Proven to broadcast over 4,000 miles
with 1 watt?" Actually, it looks like one of the driven elements of the
Russian Duga ["Woodpecker"] antenna. $6K+ seems a little steep.

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 6/9/2020 4:27 PM, Michael Chowning wrote:
> Aesthetics, yes. Cost? Gulp!
>
> https://advancedhfsolutions.com/ <https://advancedhfsolutions.com/>
>
> Mike, N8TTR
>

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Josh Fiden

Re: K3 on motorboat.

In reply to this post by Michael Chowning-2

“Performs Better Than Most 80 FT Antennas.“

The 600W model is almost $10,000. That’s ridiculous. And offensive.

How often is a sucker born? I hope not *this* often.

73,
Josh W6XU

Sent from my mobile device

>> On Jun 9, 2020, at 4:27 PM, Michael Chowning <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Aesthetics, yes. Cost? Gulp!
>
> https://advancedhfsolutions.com/ <https://advancedhfsolutions.com/>
>
>
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Vic Rosenthal

Re: K3 on motorboat.

In reply to this post by Michael Chowning-2

BS alert!

Their slogan should be: "If you can afford it, you can violate the laws
of physics."

No, you can't.

73,
Victor, 4X6GP
Rehovot, Israel
Formerly K2VCO
CWops no. 5
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
.
On 10/06/2020 2:27, Michael Chowning wrote:

> Aesthetics, yes. Cost? Gulp!
>
> https://advancedhfsolutions.com/ <https://advancedhfsolutions.com/>
>
> Mike, N8TTR
>
>> On Jun 9, 2020, at 6:32 PM, W2xj <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> aesthetics?
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>> On Jun 9, 2020, at 6:14 PM, Barry <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Full size verticals are hard to do on small power boats. And elevated grounds are also hard. Water grounds are usually the most practical, but fresh water is not great. I counsel inverted Vs as they are ground independent. On power boats that too is a tough trick, but it can be done, depending on size of the boat. A 40 meter dipole can be made by bending the ends and can be fed with coax through a 4:1 current balun if the run to the radio is not too great. It will require a fiberglass mast bracketed to the fly bridge. There are several suppliers of good, strong push up masts available; I wouldn't go more than about 25 feet which should put the feed about 31 or so feet over the water,m close to a 1/4 wave on 40. This arrangement will allow all band operation above 40 with a K3 as the tuner is just plain magic.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Barry
>>> K3NDM
>>>
>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>> From: "Robert Sands" <[hidden email]>
>>> To: "Frank C Richards" <[hidden email]>
>>> Cc: "Elecraft Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
>>> Sent: 6/9/2020 3:22:27 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 on motorboat.
>>>
>>>> Verticals require more attention to ground but the goal should be to
>>>> increase the antenna current, thus increasing radiated signal. ground into
>>>> water seems like a waste but has DC grounding value. I use hung vertical
>>>> dipoles (20 and 15) with no need for ground and they work amazingly well. I
>>>> have tried letting wire or zinc ribbon strips drop into saltwater to
>>>> ground verticals and there is no value I can detect over something simpler,
>>>> like tying to existing structures or running a above water wire
>>>> counterpoise. Vertical dipoles require no Rf ground and propagate at low
>>>> angle and high efficiency. Far effects over water are what counts, more
>>>> than grounding, except in verticals to get higher antenna current.
>>>> K7VO
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 7:38 AM Frank C Richards <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Having been in the marine electronics business I was able to successfully
>>>>> install many HF radios on boats from large steel commercial fishing boats
>>>
>>
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Jim Brown-10

Re: K3 on motorboat.

In reply to this post by Barry LaZar

On 6/9/2020 3:54 PM, Barry wrote:
> EE is an art and not science

That is NOT even slightly true. ART did not put us on the moon or build
the Mars rovers. Engineering is the thoughtful application of scientific
principles and knowledge to solve practical problems. Without science as
a base, it's little more than the infinite number of monkeys and
typewriters producing Shakespeare. Nearly all practical designs involve
some compromises. Great engineering is selecting (sometimes innovating)
those solutions which work well for the particular problem at hand.

73, Jim K9YC

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john@kk9a.com

Re: K3 on motorboat.

In reply to this post by Frank C Richards

Where is this company? I dd not see any information about them on the
website.

John KK9A

Michael Chowning N8TTR wrote:

https://advancedhfsolutions.com

Mike, N8TTR

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Vic Rosenthal

Re: K3 on motorboat.

Probably Nigeria.

Here is a patent for .... something:
<https://patents.google.com/patent/USD791746>

73,
Victor, 4X6GP
Rehovot, Israel
Formerly K2VCO
CWops no. 5
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
.
On 10/06/2020 15:18, [hidden email] wrote:

> Where is this company? I dd not see any information about them on the
> website.
>
> John KK9A
>
>
>
> Michael Chowning N8TTR wrote:
>
> https://advancedhfsolutions.com
>
> Mike, N8TTR

Bill Steffey NY9H

Re: K3 on motorboat.

googling shows alot of legal activity,,,,,, maybe charleston,
SC.... too much reading for me .

On 6/10/2020 8:23 AM, Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP wrote:

> Probably Nigeria.
>
> Here is a patent for .... something:
> <https://patents.google.com/patent/USD791746>
>
> 73,
> Victor, 4X6GP
> Rehovot, Israel
> Formerly K2VCO
> CWops no. 5
> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
> .
> On 10/06/2020 15:18, [hidden email] wrote:
>> Where is this company? I dd not see any information about them on
>> the website.
>>
>> John KK9A
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael Chowning N8TTR wrote:
>>
>> https://advancedhfsolutions.com
>>
>> Mike, N8TTR
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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Donald Wines

Re: K3 on motorboat.

In reply to this post by john@kk9a.com

Apparently they are a two person company located in Oakwood, TX a small
town of about 3000 good folk located about an 1-1/2 hours southeast of my
QTH in Bullard, TX.
You can check them out here
https://www.corporationwiki.com/p/2s9ylr/advanced-hf-solutions-inc.
The price on this thing is almost $10K.

Don,
K5DW

On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 7:19 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Where is this company? I dd not see any information about them on the
> website.
>
> John KK9A
>
>
>
> Michael Chowning N8TTR wrote:
>
> https://advancedhfsolutions.com
>
> Mike, N8TTR
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Grant Youngman-2

Re: K3 on motorboat.

So this flute thing is essentially a bi-cone EH antenna. Somehow the cosine derived flute shape helps in satisfying the requirements of the Poynting Theorem, to align the E-H fields in time phase, and on and on.

One of the more controversial antenna types, judging by the range of opinions from “it must be magic”, to "it’s the coax that actually radiates", to “it works and is simply misunderstood by people too set in their Hertzian thinking to understand the new and brilliant concept”, and so forth. I don’t know enough to know. I do know it wouldn’t be worth ten grand to find out :-)

Grant NQ5T

> On Jun 10, 2020, at 9:02 AM, Donald Wines <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Apparently they are a two person company located in Oakwood, TX a small
> town of about 3000 good folk located about an 1-1/2 hours southeast of my
> QTH in Bullard, TX.
> You can check them out here
> https://www.corporationwiki.com/p/2s9ylr/advanced-hf-solutions-inc.
> The price on this thing is almost $10K.
>
> Don,
> K5DW
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 7:19 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Where is this company? I dd not see any information about them on the
>> website.
>>
>> John KK9A

Bill Steffey NY9H

Re: K3 on motorboat.

In reply to this post by Donald Wines

looks like they are hunting for military business... the element
looks like one of those on the big Chernobyl over the horizon antenna...
broadband.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjoPy6drGBQ

bill

On 6/10/2020 9:02 AM, Donald Wines wrote:

> Apparently they are a two person company located in Oakwood, TX a small
> town of about 3000 good folk located about an 1-1/2 hours southeast of my
> QTH in Bullard, TX.
> You can check them out here
> https://www.corporationwiki.com/p/2s9ylr/advanced-hf-solutions-inc.
> The price on this thing is almost $10K.
>
> Don,
> K5DW
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 7:19 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Where is this company? I dd not see any information about them on the
>> website.
>>
>> John KK9A
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael Chowning N8TTR wrote:
>>
>> https://advancedhfsolutions.com
>>
>> Mike, N8TTR
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>>
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>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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