K3 - panadapter or subreceiver

[RobertG]

I have never used either a panadapter or a sub-receiver, so I'm a newbie
in this area. I use CW almost exclusively, and I chase DX and enter
contests [less so in the past, more in the future]. I have a "small
pistol" station with no allusions of being a band master. Question:
which of these two options might I find more useful for my station and
operating preferences? Yes, I can have them both in my K3, but if I had
to choose, which one would seem preferable? Thanks for all opinions.

...robert
--
Robert G. Strickland, PhD, ABPH - KE2WY
[hidden email]
Syracuse, New York, USA

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[Nr4c]

I opted for the P3 first as i don't have a trained ear, but I can see what's  
on the screen.  Most will disagree but I still like viewing the band and  
seeing what is going on.

...bill nr4c

Sent from my Verizon Wireless Droid

-----Original message-----
From: "Robert G. Strickland" <[hidden email]>
To: Elecraft <[hidden email]>
Sent: Mon, Jul 2, 2012 17:50:55 GMT+00:00
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 - panadapter or subreceiver

I have never used either a panadapter or a sub-receiver, so I'm a newbie
in this area. I use CW almost exclusively, and I chase DX and enter
contests [less so in the past, more in the future]. I have a "small
pistol" station with no allusions of being a band master. Question:
which of these two options might I find more useful for my station and
operating preferences? Yes, I can have them both in my K3, but if I had
to choose, which one would seem preferable? Thanks for all opinions.

...robert
--
Robert G. Strickland, PhD, ABPH - KE2WY
[hidden email]
Syracuse, New York, USA

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[Scott Manthe-2]

Well, this is entirely subjective. Both can be useful, but I think the
subRX would be the more useful addition.

73,
Scott, N9AA


On 7/2/12 1:50 PM, Robert G. Strickland wrote:
> I have never used either a panadapter or a sub-receiver, so I'm a newbie
> in this area. I use CW almost exclusively, and I chase DX and enter
> contests [less so in the past, more in the future]. I have a "small
> pistol" station with no allusions of being a band master. Question:
> which of these two options might I find more useful for my station and
> operating preferences? Yes, I can have them both in my K3, but if I had
> to choose, which one would seem preferable? Thanks for all opinions.
>
> ...robert


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[Jim Brown-10]

On 7/2/2012 10:50 AM, Robert G. Strickland wrote:
> Yes, I can have them both in my K3, but if I had
> to choose, which one would seem preferable?

I'm mainly a contester, but I work some DX, digital modes on 160M, and
all modes on 6M. I use the P3 a LOT more than I use the second RX.

For DX, you get the overview of the pileup, can often see who he's
answering, and can think about where you want to put your signal.  For
contesting, it helps fit yourself into a crowded band, see when someone
is splattering or putting out garbage. For any operation, it's easy to
quickly go to a band and check up to 200kHz of it for any signals. It's
REALLY useful on bands like 10M and 6M, where signals appear for a few
minutes and are gone due to E-skip. I keep the P3 full width (200 kHz)
to look at 50.080 - 50.280.  I've worked a lot of guys who were there
for only a few minutes and gone, very common with 2-hop E-skip.

73, Jim K9YC
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[Tony Estep]

On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Robert G. Strickland <[hidden email]>wrote:

> ...I use CW almost exclusively, and I chase DX..

==========
Well, Bob, if you chase DX on CW you will get a major boost out of the 2nd
receiver. Once you have worked the easy ones, you'll find that just about
every new one you'll need will be operating split. It is so much easier to
snag the guy when you can listen on two frequencies at once. With 2
receivers, you can put the main on the DX and the sub, set to a wider
passband (I use 2 Khz), on the pile. You hear the DX in your left ear, the
calling stations in your right. Then with luck you can find the guy who's
currently working the DX, get your signal on or near his frequency, and
make your call.

This same routine is even slicker if you have both the 2nd receiver and a
panadapter. However, the panadapter by itself will not find the guy who's
working the DX, because the pile never stops calling even during a QSO, so
you'll see a bunch of spikes and you won't know which one is the station
that the DX is listening to.

Whatever you decide, good luck and good DX.

Tony KT0NY



--
http://www.isb.edu/faculty/facultydir.aspx?ddlFaculty=352
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[k6dgw]

Standby for incoming, Robert.:-)  My suggestion:  Your K3 has two VFO's
and will run them split.  That's what you need for DX.  Without the
subRx, you have to press and hold the REV button to listen on your TX
freq on VFO B in SPLIT.  It reverts to VFO A when you let go.  With the
subRx, you can hear both frequencies, one in each ear if you have all
the stereo stuff set up right.

With the P3, you don't really need to listen to your TX frequency at
all, you can see it at the VFO B cursor in SPLIT.  If you're in the
middle of the biggest part of the pile, it is obvious instantly, so move.

DX Chasing With a P3 and No SubRX:  Find the DX.  If you can't hear him,
find someone else.  If you can copy him, tap A>B.  Then hold it for
SPLIT.  On the P3, the VFO A cursor ["color A"] is on the DX.  VFO B
cursor ["color B"] is on top of it.  Rotate the "Little Knob" and put
VFO B somewhere in the pile, anywhere is OK, it really doesn't matter.
Pile calls DX, DX finally calls someone.  One [if you're fortunate]
signal will pop up.  Put VFO B on that signal.  When DX sends TU, call
him.  It's almost too easy, takes longer to describe it than to get in
the DX station's log. :-)

The subRx has a number of uses, diversity reception being one, and there
are others.  However, your K3 will already "do DX" just fine, and a P3
will change your operating habits [and coefficient of fun] dramatically.
  I bought mine pretty much as a toy.  It's all I watch now.  When S&P
in a contest, I no longer tune with the Big Knob, I use the SELECT knob
on the P3, put MRKR A on each signal and tap the knob.

The various markers and cursors on the P3 are different colors, I don't
have any color vision so I don't know what colors they are, but I don't
have any problem at all operating with the P3.  I do use
On 7/2/2012 10:50 AM, Robert G. Strickland wrote:

> Question:
> which of these two options might I find more useful for my station and
> operating preferences? Yes, I can have them both in my K3, but if I had
> to choose, which one would seem preferable? Thanks for all opinions.


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[Paul Saffren N6HZ]

Hi Robert,

Having never used a panadapter until working at Elecraft, I can honestly say that I can't imagine having a station without one. With a P3 (or LP-Pan for that matter) I can literally see the band at a glance.  One of the really nice features is the history or waterfall, which allows you to easily work a pileup.  And there is so much more.

Just my $0.02 worth,

Paul

[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

On 7/2/2012 10:50 AM, Robert G. Strickland wrote:
 > Yes, I can have them both in my K3, but if I had
 > to choose, which one would seem preferable?

It would be a very tough choice.  The panadapter provides a "50,000
foot view" ... I can be chasing one pile-up or working JT-65 on 6
meters and see if something else pops up elsewhere in the band.  When
coupled with the DX Cluster that often alerts me when it something I
can work rather than chasing spots I can't hear.

On the other hand the second receiver allows me to listen in the
pile-up with much more detail than I get from the P3 ... or actually
listen to/check out that "blip"/spot before I leave the current
frequency and chase to the opposite end of the band or change modes.


73,

    ... Joe, W4TV





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[Mike K2MK]

Hi Robert,

I have the sub RX and the P3 and I would not want to be without either, however, if I were trying to save money on an initial purchase I would buy the P3. The P3 is easy to use and is useful at all times under all conditions. The large screen SVGA option which I also have is nice but certainly not mandatory. The P3 in combination with the existing tools on the K3 will make working split very rewarding.

The sub RX is wonderful but I can go weeks without every turning it on. But when needed it is a superb tool. However, working a split DX station where there are thousands of callers is still tedious. The sub RX in combination with the P3 is terrific.

I would also say that a P3 is much more useful in a contest than a sub RX. I've operated many CW contests where I never turn on the sub RX but use the P3 extensively. However, if you have the opportunity to add a low noise receive antenna for the low bands then the sub RX can also be used for diversity reception. This is where you can listen to your transmit antenna in one ear and your receive antenna in the other ear. For some this is a powerful tool for weak signal work.

73,
Mike K2MK

RobertG wrote

I have never used either a panadapter or a sub-receiver, so I'm a newbie
in this area. I use CW almost exclusively, and I chase DX and enter
contests [less so in the past, more in the future]. I have a "small
pistol" station with no allusions of being a band master. Question:
which of these two options might I find more useful for my station and
operating preferences? Yes, I can have them both in my K3, but if I had
to choose, which one would seem preferable? Thanks for all opinions.

...robert
--
Robert G. Strickland, PhD, ABPH - KE2WY

[Brian - K1NW]

I thought this through and chose the P3. The subRX requires a second antenna - which I did not have - and the matching filters, so it is not just the receiver alone. The P3 does everything the others have mentioned, and as one responder said - you will end up using it all the time if you work DX split.

[Hisashi T Fujinaka]

I'd agree. I never had either in the past and now I'm constantly looking
at the P3 and I do use the sub-receiver but don't turn it on every time
I'm on. The panadapter tells me when the band is dead, when my antenna
is tuned properly (I have a magnetic loop that needs to be tuned all the
time), when other stations are on, and also if the *%&# power line
arcing is active on the pole outside my house (it's scheduled to be
fixed, but it's been going on for months). I'm sure I could go back to
doing things the old way, but it's like turning off DX spotting: why
would I want to?

On Mon, 2 Jul 2012, Mike K2MK wrote:

> Hi Robert,
>
> I have the sub RX and the P3 and I would not want to be without either,
> however, if I were trying to save money on an initial purchase I would buy
> the P3. The P3 is easy to use and is useful at all times under all
> conditions. The large screen SVGA option which I also have is nice but
> certainly not mandatory. The P3 in combination with the existing tools on
> the K3 will make working split very rewarding.
>
> The sub RX is wonderful but I can go weeks without every turning it on. But
> when needed it is a superb tool. However, working a split DX station where
> there are thousands of callers is still tedious. The sub RX in combination
> with the P3 is terrific.
>
> I would also say that a P3 is much more useful in a contest than a sub RX.
> I've operated many CW contests where I never turn on the sub RX but use the
> P3 extensively. However, if you have the opportunity to add a low noise
> receive antenna for the low bands then the sub RX can also be used for
> diversity reception. This is where you can listen to your transmit antenna
> in one ear and your receive antenna in the other ear. For some this is a
> powerful tool for weak signal work.
>
> RobertG wrote
>>
>> I have never used either a panadapter or a sub-receiver, so I'm a newbie
>> in this area. I use CW almost exclusively, and I chase DX and enter
>> contests [less so in the past, more in the future]. I have a "small
>> pistol" station with no allusions of being a band master. Question:
>> which of these two options might I find more useful for my station and
>> operating preferences? Yes, I can have them both in my K3, but if I had
>> to choose, which one would seem preferable? Thanks for all opinions.

--
Hisashi T Fujinaka - [hidden email]
BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 = latte
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[Craig Smith]

I have both with my K3.  If I could have only one, it would definitely be the P3.  The sub RX is great for diversity receive which helps a lot in CW contesting.  But the P3, as other have pointed out, lets you quickly find where to place your signal when trying to find a good run frequency.  For DXing, I think it is pretty much a tossup.

But one aspect of the P3 that no one has recently mentioned is that it makes a SUPERB piece of test equipment when used with the K3.  I don't have a dedicated spectrum analyzer but found that the P3 meets many of these needs.  I use it when designing and characterizing filters.  The ability to easily download and print out plots in full high resolution color is amazing.  I often use it with the Elecraft noise source as an input signal.  Of course I have the general coverage bandpass filters K3 option, which I highly recommend.  And the K3's functionality as a calibrated tunable RF voltmeter is awesome as well.

The P3 is also invaluable as a tool for tracking down EMI. You can see the type of signal and how it is moving in frequency vs. time.  I use it for this both with the K3 and also as a portable battery powered standalone EMI receiver by setting the programmable IF frequency to the range of interest and using a small hand-held loop antenna.

For anyone with an interest in home brewing and circuit design, I can't recommend the K3/P3 combo highly enough.


73   Craig   AC0DS

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[Dave Perry N4QS]

Robert,

I have both the subRX and the panadapter, and I love and use both a lot.
But if I had to choose between one or the other, I would definitely
recommend the P3.  I use the P3 all the time -- it is a revolutionary new
way to interface with the radio.  I just used it a moment ago to break a
huge pile up trying to work 1A0C on 20M RTTY.  I also use the panadaptor to
view band openings and gage the general acitivity on the bands.  When
tunring the K3, I hardly ever look at the frequency readout anymore.  I
instead look at the P3 and move from one signal to another much faster.

I do use the subRX, especially when I have to go split in a big pileup.  But
I don't use it nearly as much as the P3.  I orginally bought my K3 without
the subRX and was very comfortable going split with two VFOs.  When I added
the subRX, I quickly learned how to use it to listen and tune through a pile
to find the station being worked or a gap in the pileup as a whole.  But
once I got the panadaptor, I don't have to listen on the sub RX nearly as
much.  The panadaptor allows me to see the pileup and move my VFO B
frequency visually and much more quickly.

So if I had to choose, I would vote for the P3.  But the real answer is the
two in combination are lights out!  One final thought: if you are going to
order your K3 factory built, it might make more sense to buy the subRX.  It
is a bit involved adding the subRX after the fact.  It is super easy to add
the P3 at any time.  If you already have a K3, then it is a lot easier to
add the P3.  Eventually, you will want to have both.

Dave, N4QS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert G. Strickland" <[hidden email]>
To: "Elecraft" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 12:50 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 - panadapter or subreceiver

>I have never used either a panadapter or a sub-receiver, so I'm a newbie
> in this area. I use CW almost exclusively, and I chase DX and enter
> contests [less so in the past, more in the future]. I have a "small
> pistol" station with no allusions of being a band master. Question:
> which of these two options might I find more useful for my station and
> operating preferences? Yes, I can have them both in my K3, but if I had
> to choose, which one would seem preferable? Thanks for all opinions.
>
> ...robert
> --
> Robert G. Strickland, PhD, ABPH - KE2WY
> [hidden email]
> Syracuse, New York, USA
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html 

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[Mike K2MK]

Hi Brian,

Use of a sub RX does not require a second antenna. I've been using a sub RX to chase split DX since 1991 with one antenna. The only time a second antenna is necessary is if you want to use diversity reception or possibly for some cross band activity.

Conversely, a sub RX is not required to utilize a second antenna. You can use a second antenna with the main RX with the addition of the optional KXV3A board.

73,
Mike K2MK

Brian Maynard wrote

I thought this through and chose the P3. The subRX requires a second antenna - which I did not have - and the matching filters, so it is not just the receiver alone. The P3 does everything the others have mentioned, and as one responder said - you will end up using it all the time if you work DX split.

[John Harper AE5X]

I had the same question over a year ago and received the following replies:
http://www.ae5x.com/blog/2010/09/05/the-most-beneficial-k3-upgrade-panadapter-or-sub-reciever/?trashed=1&ids=1987

I've still not added either but after operating the K3 much as you do, there is no longer any question in my mind - the next upgrade will be the sub-rx.

John AE5X


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[Brian - K1NW]

Hi Mike,

You are right! I should have read the manual before posting ;-)

It is important to consider the filters needed for the subRX - 8-pole filters are not inexpensive.

I hope to have both someday, but for now am very happy with my P3 and KPA500 (and KAT500 on order...).

[Phil Shepard]

My understanding is that diversity receive works best with matched receiver
topologies.  Should the subRx have the same filter array as the main Rx
(bandwidths and types)?  If the main Rx has 8-pole 2.8, 1.8 and 0.4 kHz
filters, should the subRx mimic that?  Thank you for the enlightenment.

73,
Phil, NS7P

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 7:11 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - panadapter or subreceiver


And for most operations 8 pole filters are not required.

Ron AC7AC

-----Original Message-----

Hi Mike,

You are right! I should have read the manual before posting ;-)

It is important to consider the filters needed for the subRX - 8-pole
filters are not inexpensive.

I hope to have both someday, but for now am very happy with my P3 and KPA500
(and KAT500 on order...).

-----
Brian,  op K1NW
--

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[Don Wilhelm-4]

Phil and all,

Yes, for diversity receive, the filters should be matched.  In theory,
the 8 pole filters should have zero offset, but in practice, they may
have a small bit of an offset.  The answer is to "compromise" - if you
hear a WOW-WOW sound while listening to diversity, you should change the
filter offsets a bit. until you eliminate the WOW-WOW.

If you are using the SubRX only for RX of the DX in a split situation,
there is no need to have matched filters - that operation is quite
different than diversity operation.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/2/2012 10:50 PM, Phillip Shepard wrote:

> My understanding is that diversity receive works best with matched receiver
> topologies.  Should the subRx have the same filter array as the main Rx
> (bandwidths and types)?  If the main Rx has 8-pole 2.8, 1.8 and 0.4 kHz
> filters, should the subRx mimic that?  Thank you for the enlightenment.
>
> 73,
> Phil, NS7P
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 7:11 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - panadapter or subreceiver
>
>
> And for most operations 8 pole filters are not required.
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> You are right! I should have read the manual before posting ;-)
>
> It is important to consider the filters needed for the subRX - 8-pole
> filters are not inexpensive.
>
> I hope to have both someday, but for now am very happy with my P3 and KPA500
> (and KAT500 on order...).
>
> -----
> Brian,  op K1NW
> --
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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[Mike K2MK]

Hi Phil,

You should have some idea of when you might want to use diversity reception. If you do then the filters that would be in use on your main RX should be duplicated (and matched) in the sub RX. Likewise, you should really give some thought to when you might use your sub RX. I have five filters in my main RX and four in my sub RX. I now believe I only really needed 3 in my sub RX and one day if I have reason to remove my sub RX I'll take out the filter I don't use and sell it.

If you never plan on having multiple antennas you might never operate diversity. In that case you won't need matched filters in your sub RX. But that move could lower the resale value of your K3. More food for thought.

73,
Mike K2MK

Phillip Shepard wrote

My understanding is that diversity receive works best with matched receiver
topologies.  Should the subRx have the same filter array as the main Rx
(bandwidths and types)?  If the main Rx has 8-pole 2.8, 1.8 and 0.4 kHz
filters, should the subRx mimic that?  Thank you for the enlightenment.

73,
Phil, NS7P

[Jim Hoge-2]

Your second antenna  does NOT need to be resonant to receive, either by itself or with another in diversity mode. My receive antenna is seasonal so I have employed antennas for other bands for receive when it is not up. While a non resonant will not present as strong a signal, it also will not present as strong a noise. The S/N ratio is unchanged but the human ear seems to hear better when the noise is reduced. I typically use an antenna for the next band (even harmonic).

73,
Jim W5QM


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