K3: remote control
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Brgds,
Dave, N3HE Cincinnati OH |
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Hi Dave,
That remote USB device looks interesting. I'm not sure, however, that it will work over the Internet. I think its intended for use on a local network I looked at the manual and saw nothing about how you would find the device from a remote computer via the Internet. That is to say what IP address the device is using. I suppose that might not be a problem if you have a static IP address for the device (very uncommon). On a local network I bet it does some kind of broadcast saying here I am, and your computer would be looking for that with the software they provide. But such broadcasts would not be sent over the entire Internet. Maybe someone has had some real experience with that device and can shed some more light on it. 73 - Mike WA8BXN ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by David Windisch
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In reply to this post by David Windisch
Dave,
perhaps easier to consider The remoteRig box that allows you to remote your rig with a single box http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/8956 cheers - Wim |
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In reply to this post by pd0psb
Not taking a thing from what is being proposed as to controlling the K3 over
a LAN or the Internet, I wish Elecraft would produce a "Remote Pod", actually a hard wired Pod which would access the CW and DVR memories with a press of a given button and maybe though this is less important to me have an encoder which would allow tuning the radio. TenTec has one for the Orion II and it was a considerable help with engaging the CW and Voice memories. The pod made the Orion II far more convenient to use for both contesting and conventional operation. For contesting when one does not touch the tuning for periods of time it would prove helpful and yes I presently use Micro-Keyer II with Win-test and so have some of these features but I would still use the DVK and CW memories if it could be done with more ease. Ah well Elecraft is doing a great job and has so many new products and developing products as it stands that it will take time to digest what is presently on the plate. Elecraft is doing a fantastic job. 73 Doug EI2CN -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of pd0psb Sent: 05 July 2011 17:11 To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: remote control http://www.remoterig.com/wp/?page_id=465 73 Paul PD0PSB -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-remote-control-tp6549744p6550433.htm l Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Mike WA8BXN
I think what you want is "port forwarding" to get through the router
firewall and specify the fixed IP address. In my Belkin router it is under Firewall > Virtual servers. You specify the private (local) IP address (which will be 192.168.2.*) and port number as well as the fixed IP and port that is seen by the outside world. Alan N1AL On Tue, 2011-07-05 at 10:19 -0400, Mike WA8BXN wrote: > Hi Dave, > > That remote USB device looks interesting. I'm not sure, however, that it > will work over the Internet. I think its intended for use on a local network > I looked at the manual and saw nothing about how you would find the device > from a remote computer via the Internet. That is to say what IP address the > device is using. I suppose that might not be a problem if you have a static > IP address for the device (very uncommon). > > On a local network I bet it does some kind of broadcast saying here I am, > and your computer would be looking for that with the software they provide. > But such broadcasts would not be sent over the entire Internet. > > Maybe someone has had some real experience with that device and can shed > some more light on it. > > 73 - Mike WA8BXN ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Doug Turnbull
This is a great idea for a new product.
On 7/5/2011 12:25 PM, Doug Turnbull wrote: > Not taking a thing from what is being proposed as to controlling the K3 over > a LAN or the Internet, I wish Elecraft would produce a "Remote Pod", > actually a hard wired Pod which would access the CW and DVR memories with a > press of a given button and maybe though this is less important to me have > an encoder which would allow tuning the radio. TenTec has one for the > Orion II and it was a considerable help with engaging the CW and Voice > memories. The pod made the Orion II far more convenient to use for both > contesting and conventional operation. For contesting when one does not > touch the tuning for periods of time it would prove helpful and yes I > presently use Micro-Keyer II with Win-test and so have some of these > features but I would still use the DVK and CW memories if it could be done > with more ease. > > Ah well Elecraft is doing a great job and has so many new products and > developing products as it stands that it will take time to digest what is > presently on the plate. Elecraft is doing a fantastic job. > > 73 Doug EI2CN > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of pd0psb > Sent: 05 July 2011 17:11 > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: remote control > > http://www.remoterig.com/wp/?page_id=465 > > 73 > Paul > PD0PSB > > -- > View this message in context: > http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-remote-control-tp6549744p6550433.htm > l > Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > -- 73, Gary K9GS Check out K9NS on the web: http://www.k9ns.com Greater Milwaukee DX Association: http://www.gmdxa.org Society of Midwest Contesters: http://www.w9smc.com ************************************************ ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Alan Bloom
Yes, port forwarding is used. But there is still the problem of what the IP
address of the router itself is if you don't have a static IP address. There are a number of services that can be used to give you a symbolic name that the name server can look up, but they need something to tell the service when your dynamic address changes. This is usually a program running on a computer on your network or some network device that can do it. I didn't see any provision for this in the remote USB gadget. So a computer may be needed on the network. 73 - Mike WA8BXN -------Original Message------- From: Alan Bloom Date: 7/5/2011 1:29:22 PM To: Mike WA8BXN Cc: [hidden email]; David Windisch Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: remote control I think what you want is "port forwarding" to get through the router Firewall and specify the fixed IP address. In my Belkin router it is Under Firewall > Virtual servers. You specify the private (local) IP address (which will be 192.168.2.*) And port number as well as the fixed IP and port that is seen by the Outside world. Alan N1AL On Tue, 2011-07-05 at 10:19 -0400, Mike WA8BXN wrote: > Hi Dave, > > That remote USB device looks interesting. I'm not sure, however, that it > will work over the Internet. I think its intended for use on a local network > I looked at the manual and saw nothing about how you would find the device > from a remote computer via the Internet. That is to say what IP address the > device is using. I suppose that might not be a problem if you have a static > IP address for the device (very uncommon). > > On a local network I bet it does some kind of broadcast saying here I am, > and your computer would be looking for that with the software they provide > But such broadcasts would not be sent over the entire Internet. > > Maybe someone has had some real experience with that device and can shed > some more light on it. > > 73 - Mike WA8BXN ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Most, if not all current cable/dsl routers support DynDNS natively. That's
what I've been using for years to accomplish this. On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Mike WA8BXN <[hidden email]> wrote: > Yes, port forwarding is used. But there is still the problem of what the IP > address of the router itself is if you don't have a static IP address. > There > are a number of services that can be used to give you a symbolic name that > the name server can look up, but they need something to tell the service > when your dynamic address changes. This is usually a program running on a > computer on your network or some network device that can do it. I didn't > see > any provision for this in the remote USB gadget. So a computer may be > needed > on the network. > > 73 - Mike WA8BXN > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Alan Bloom > Date: 7/5/2011 1:29:22 PM > To: Mike WA8BXN > Cc: [hidden email]; David Windisch > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: remote control > > I think what you want is "port forwarding" to get through the router > Firewall and specify the fixed IP address. In my Belkin router it is > Under Firewall > Virtual servers. > > You specify the private (local) IP address (which will be 192.168.2.*) > And port number as well as the fixed IP and port that is seen by the > Outside world. > > Alan N1AL > > > On Tue, 2011-07-05 at 10:19 -0400, Mike WA8BXN wrote: > > Hi Dave, > > > > That remote USB device looks interesting. I'm not sure, however, that it > > will work over the Internet. I think its intended for use on a local > network > > I looked at the manual and saw nothing about how you would find the > device > > > from a remote computer via the Internet. That is to say what IP address > the > > device is using. I suppose that might not be a problem if you have a > static > > IP address for the device (very uncommon). > > > > On a local network I bet it does some kind of broadcast saying here I am, > > and your computer would be looking for that with the software they > provide > > > But such broadcasts would not be sent over the entire Internet. > > > > Maybe someone has had some real experience with that device and can shed > > some more light on it. > > > > 73 - Mike WA8BXN > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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The best solution is to use a static IP address at the remote station.
My ISP offers a package of 8 addresses for an extra monthly charge. You pick one of them and tell the router to use that address. That way the computer at the control point can always connect to the same address to access the remote station. If you don't have a static IP, then you have to use the method that Mike describes below, which AFAIK requires a computer at the remote station. Even if the USB gadget had the feature built-in, it still wouldn't work through a router (although admittedly you probably don't need one for this application). Alan N1AL On Tue, 2011-07-05 at 12:04 -0700, Tim Tucker wrote: > Most, if not all current cable/dsl routers support DynDNS natively. That's > what I've been using for years to accomplish this. > > > > On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Mike WA8BXN <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > Yes, port forwarding is used. But there is still the problem of what the IP > > address of the router itself is if you don't have a static IP address. > > There > > are a number of services that can be used to give you a symbolic name that > > the name server can look up, but they need something to tell the service > > when your dynamic address changes. This is usually a program running on a > > computer on your network or some network device that can do it. I didn't > > see > > any provision for this in the remote USB gadget. So a computer may be > > needed > > on the network. > > > > 73 - Mike WA8BXN > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by David Windisch
Perhaps I'm overlooking something obvious. In the case of the K3, what
would comprise the user interface at the operating end in absence of a computer? 73, Dick - KA5KKT _____ Dave, perhaps easier to consider The remoteRig box that allows you to remote your rig with a single box <http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/8956> http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/8956 cheers - Wim ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Yes, you do need a computer at the operating end. However it is really
nice not to need one at the radio end. If the computer crashes you really don't want to have to drive to the mountaintop to reset it. Also having a computer running 14/7 can waste a lot of power. The computer at the operating position can be turned off when you aren't using it. Alan N1AL On Tue, 2011-07-05 at 16:18 -0400, Edward Dickinson III wrote: > Perhaps I'm overlooking something obvious. In the case of the K3, what > would comprise the user interface at the operating end in absence of a > computer? > > > > > > 73, > > Dick - KA5KKT > > _____ > > Dave, > > > > perhaps easier to consider The remoteRig box that allows > > you to remote your rig with a single box > > > > <http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/8956> > http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/8956 > > > > cheers > > - Wim > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by David Windisch
Thanks, Alan.
The eHam link referenced in Win's post was for a unit not requiring a computer at the operating position. I suppose that is for units that have remote heads. Perhaps Elecraft will consider a remote head for the K3 and/or other/future rigs. 73, Dick - KA5KKT _____ Yes, you do need a computer at the operating end. However it is really nice not to need one at the radio end. If the computer crashes you really don't want to have to drive to the mountaintop to reset it. Also having a computer running 14/7 can waste a lot of power. The computer at the operating position can be turned off when you aren't using it. Alan N1AL On Tue, 2011-07-05 at 16:18 -0400, Edward Dickinson III wrote: > Perhaps I'm overlooking something obvious. In the case of the K3, what > would comprise the user interface at the operating end in absence of a > computer? > > 73, > Dick - KA5KKT > > _____ > > Dave, > > perhaps easier to consider The remoteRig box that allows > you to remote your rig with a single box > > < <http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/8956> http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/8956> > <http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/8956> http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/8956 > > > cheers > - Wim > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Alan Bloom
On 7/5/2011 2:27 PM, Alan Bloom wrote:
> Yes, you do need a computer at the operating end. However it is really > nice not to need one at the radio end. If the computer crashes you > really don't want to have to drive to the mountaintop to reset it. Also > having a computer running 14/7 can waste a lot of power. The computer > at the operating position can be turned off when you aren't using it. > > Alan N1AL > If you put an IP addressable power strip on the mountain top, you can remotely turn the computer/radio/etc. on and off at will. This can save power. This can give you a remote method for resetting the computer. This can be another way of turning off the radio. Don, N0YE ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Don,
It is not a good idea to just "remove the power" from the K3 - just like a computer, it needs to power down gracefully and store some things for the next time it is powered up. The K3 does feature a Remote Power On input that can be used to turn it on. To turn it off remotely, one can use the PS0; command (see the K3 Programmer's reference). A dedicated controller *could* be designed to serve in place of the computer at the remote end, although that would take too much effort IMHO for a one-off installation. A computer is probably the easiest implementation, although as you aptly pointed out, it may need to be reset if it hangs for some reason. In my experience, if the computer is not doing a write function at the time the "plug is pulled", it will come up again without incident or damage - so your solution for the computer may be workable. 73, Don W3FPR On 7/5/2011 4:52 PM, Don Nelson wrote: > On 7/5/2011 2:27 PM, Alan Bloom wrote: >> Yes, you do need a computer at the operating end. However it is really >> nice not to need one at the radio end. If the computer crashes you >> really don't want to have to drive to the mountaintop to reset it. Also >> having a computer running 14/7 can waste a lot of power. The computer >> at the operating position can be turned off when you aren't using it. >> >> Alan N1AL >> > If you put an IP addressable power strip on the mountain top, you can > remotely turn the computer/radio/etc. on and off at will. This can save > power. This can give you a remote method for resetting the computer. > This can be another way of turning off the radio. > > Don, N0YE > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Instead of a full blown computer at the remote site why not just design an
app for an Ethernut board? If you have IP access to the site then the Ethernut board can run the K3 from firmware. Set the watchdog timer so if there are any glitches it times out and resets the board. Send the commands to the IP address and the Ethernut board parses them and sends them to the K3. Fairly simple app to write should only take a day or two. 73, Kevin. KD5ONS On Tue, 05 Jul 2011 14:29:58 -0700, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote: > Don, > > It is not a good idea to just "remove the power" from the K3 - just like > a computer, it needs to power down gracefully and store some things for > the next time it is powered up. > > The K3 does feature a Remote Power On input that can be used to turn it > on. To turn it off remotely, one can use the PS0; command (see the K3 > Programmer's reference). > > A dedicated controller *could* be designed to serve in place of the > computer at the remote end, although that would take too much effort > IMHO for a one-off installation. A computer is probably the easiest > implementation, although as you aptly pointed out, it may need to be > reset if it hangs for some reason. In my experience, if the computer is > not doing a write function at the time the "plug is pulled", it will > come up again without incident or damage - so your solution for the > computer may be workable. > > 73, > Don W3FPR > > On 7/5/2011 4:52 PM, Don Nelson wrote: >> On 7/5/2011 2:27 PM, Alan Bloom wrote: >>> Yes, you do need a computer at the operating end. However it is really >>> nice not to need one at the radio end. If the computer crashes you >>> really don't want to have to drive to the mountaintop to reset it. >>> Also >>> having a computer running 14/7 can waste a lot of power. The computer >>> at the operating position can be turned off when you aren't using it. >>> >>> Alan N1AL >>> >> If you put an IP addressable power strip on the mountain top, you can >> remotely turn the computer/radio/etc. on and off at will. This can save >> power. This can give you a remote method for resetting the computer. >> This can be another way of turning off the radio. >> >> Don, N0YE >> > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4
On 7/5/2011 2:29 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> A dedicated controller *could* be designed to serve in place of the > computer at the remote end, although that would take too much effort > IMHO for a one-off installation. www.hamstack.com I know George and John very well [but have no financial interest in their company]. Their HamStack is a very small format, stackable system, programmable in C or Basic [and probably some other languages as well] with all sorts of input/output capabilities. They also build a very comprehensive, modular multi-radio repeater controller that is becoming a standard in the Cactus Intertie [ www.cactus-intertie.org ] 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2011 Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2011 - www.cqp.org ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by kevinr@coho.net
I shudder when an engineer or programmer says that. The "a day" never
happens, and the "or two" is always a gross underestimate. ;-) 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2011 Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2011 - www.cqp.org On 7/5/2011 2:49 PM, Kevin Rock wrote: > Fairly simple app to write should only take a day or two. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Alan Bloom
Seems to me that with all the recurring interest in remote operation that pops up here and, with the number of people that are thinking about remote as a way to retire to a radio restricted QTH and still get on the radio, that a direct ethernet hook up like the Omni VII has would be a great addition to the K3.
I would visualize an internal modem board like Ten-Tec does in the VII that can be assigned it's own IP address and connected directly to the Internet without a computer at the remote location. This would be an option, so not required if someone isn't interested in remote operation - unlike TT. Of course, this can be done now with the Remoterig set up but for a healthy cost. Whereas, the direct ethernet connection with appropriate software (like TT's One Plug) would be easier, neater and a lot cheaper. Rick K6LE ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Plus it is only a few chips on a board to get the job done. Firmware is
dead simple too. Simple solution, why hasn't anyone built it yet? Kevin. KD5ONS On Tue, 05 Jul 2011 15:57:19 -0700, Rick Prather <[hidden email]> wrote: > Seems to me that with all the recurring interest in remote operation > that pops up here and, with the number of people that are thinking about > remote as a way to retire to a radio restricted QTH and still get on the > radio, that a direct ethernet hook up like the Omni VII has would be a > great addition to the K3. > > I would visualize an internal modem board like Ten-Tec does in the VII > that can be assigned it's own IP address and connected directly to the > Internet without a computer at the remote location. This would be an > option, so not required if someone isn't interested in remote operation > - unlike TT. > > Of course, this can be done now with the Remoterig set up but for a > healthy cost. Whereas, the direct ethernet connection with appropriate > software (like TT's One Plug) would be easier, neater and a lot cheaper. > > Rick > K6LE Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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