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[K3] splitting RS232 output for 2 serial ports

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John Shadle

[K3] splitting RS232 output for 2 serial ports

Hi all,
I'm trying to accomplish keying with my K3 using the RS232 port and a
COM port on my desktop computer.

I currently use the RS232 for station logging to provide frequency,
mode, etc. information and for rig control (e.g., click on a spot and
then the radio changes frequency/mode). Unfortunately, the program I
use (AC Log by N3FJP) does not allow you to choose the same COM port
for both rig control and CW keying.

My question is whether or not I could use a splitter of some type (at
the K3) to go to 2 separate ports (e.g., COM 1 and COM 2), then use
COM 1 for rig control and COM 2 for keying. Has anyone else done this?
Is this acceptable practice?

Thanks!
-john W4PAH
Madison, WI
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Iain MacDonnell - N6ML-2

Re: [K3] splitting RS232 output for 2 serial ports

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 2:38 PM, John Shadle <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sure! It'd probably be safest to make the splitter yourself - the
"rig-control" side needs TXD, RXD and ground, and the keying side
needs RTS, DTR and ground.

73,

~iain / N6ML
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John Shadle

Re: [K3] splitting RS232 output for 2 serial ports

Do you think there would be a problem in letting both signals pass
through to both COM ports? Wouldn't COM 1 only "look" for the
appropriate rig control signals and COM 2 only "look" for the
appropriate CW keying signals? Or not...?

Thanks, Iain!
-john W4PAH

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 5:51 PM, iain macdonnell - N6ML <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 2:38 PM, John Shadle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> I'm trying to accomplish keying with my K3 using the RS232 port and a
>> COM port on my desktop computer.
>>
>> I currently use the RS232 for station logging to provide frequency,
>> mode, etc. information and for rig control (e.g., click on a spot and
>> then the radio changes frequency/mode). Unfortunately, the program I
>> use (AC Log by N3FJP) does not allow you to choose the same COM port
>> for both rig control and CW keying.
>>
>> My question is whether or not I could use a splitter of some type (at
>> the K3) to go to 2 separate ports (e.g., COM 1 and COM 2), then use
>> COM 1 for rig control and COM 2 for keying. Has anyone else done this?
>> Is this acceptable practice?
>
> Sure! It'd probably be safest to make the splitter yourself - the
> "rig-control" side needs TXD, RXD and ground, and the keying side
> needs RTS, DTR and ground.
>
> 73,
>
> ~iain / N6ML

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Iain MacDonnell - N6ML-2

Re: [K3] splitting RS232 output for 2 serial ports

Hi John,

I didn't want to suggest that without having tried it (and it may vary
between COM port implementations). I'm thinking that there may be some
interaction between the two COM ports if they're electrically
connected together - e.g. if you tell the rig-control port to set RTS
and DTR to "always low", that might pull down the voltage generated by
the keying port, and cause it to not work.... you could try it, I
suppose....

73,

~iain / N6ML

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 2:54 PM, John Shadle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Do you think there would be a problem in letting both signals pass
> through to both COM ports? Wouldn't COM 1 only "look" for the
> appropriate rig control signals and COM 2 only "look" for the
> appropriate CW keying signals? Or not...?
>
> Thanks, Iain!
> -john W4PAH
>
> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 5:51 PM, iain macdonnell - N6ML <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 2:38 PM, John Shadle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>> I'm trying to accomplish keying with my K3 using the RS232 port and a
>>> COM port on my desktop computer.
>>>
>>> I currently use the RS232 for station logging to provide frequency,
>>> mode, etc. information and for rig control (e.g., click on a spot and
>>> then the radio changes frequency/mode). Unfortunately, the program I
>>> use (AC Log by N3FJP) does not allow you to choose the same COM port
>>> for both rig control and CW keying.
>>>
>>> My question is whether or not I could use a splitter of some type (at
>>> the K3) to go to 2 separate ports (e.g., COM 1 and COM 2), then use
>>> COM 1 for rig control and COM 2 for keying. Has anyone else done this?
>>> Is this acceptable practice?
>>
>> Sure! It'd probably be safest to make the splitter yourself - the
>> "rig-control" side needs TXD, RXD and ground, and the keying side
>> needs RTS, DTR and ground.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ~iain / N6ML

John Shadle

Re: [K3] splitting RS232 output for 2 serial ports

Good point, Iain.

The only problem is that I'd like to get the project done quickly, and
I'm not sure Radio Shack sells these DB9 shells any longer. Off to
Digikey/Mouser I go...

73
-john W4PAH

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 5:58 PM, iain macdonnell - N6ML <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> I didn't want to suggest that without having tried it (and it may vary
> between COM port implementations). I'm thinking that there may be some
> interaction between the two COM ports if they're electrically
> connected together - e.g. if you tell the rig-control port to set RTS
> and DTR to "always low", that might pull down the voltage generated by
> the keying port, and cause it to not work.... you could try it, I
> suppose....
>
> 73,
>
> ~iain / N6ML
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 2:54 PM, John Shadle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Do you think there would be a problem in letting both signals pass
>> through to both COM ports? Wouldn't COM 1 only "look" for the
>> appropriate rig control signals and COM 2 only "look" for the
>> appropriate CW keying signals? Or not...?
>>
>> Thanks, Iain!
>> -john W4PAH
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 5:51 PM, iain macdonnell - N6ML <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 2:38 PM, John Shadle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Hi all,
>>>> I'm trying to accomplish keying with my K3 using the RS232 port and a
>>>> COM port on my desktop computer.
>>>>
>>>> I currently use the RS232 for station logging to provide frequency,
>>>> mode, etc. information and for rig control (e.g., click on a spot and
>>>> then the radio changes frequency/mode). Unfortunately, the program I
>>>> use (AC Log by N3FJP) does not allow you to choose the same COM port
>>>> for both rig control and CW keying.
>>>>
>>>> My question is whether or not I could use a splitter of some type (at
>>>> the K3) to go to 2 separate ports (e.g., COM 1 and COM 2), then use
>>>> COM 1 for rig control and COM 2 for keying. Has anyone else done this?
>>>> Is this acceptable practice?
>>>
>>> Sure! It'd probably be safest to make the splitter yourself - the
>>> "rig-control" side needs TXD, RXD and ground, and the keying side
>>> needs RTS, DTR and ground.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> ~iain / N6ML

John Shadle

Re: [K3] splitting RS232 output for 2 serial ports

Ah forget it. I needed to use the right search term...

http://www.radioshack.com/search/index.jsp?kwCatId=&kw=d-sub&origkw=d-sub&sr=1

Maybe creating my own cable is the way to go after all.

-john

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 6:03 PM, John Shadle <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Good point, Iain.
>
> The only problem is that I'd like to get the project done quickly, and
> I'm not sure Radio Shack sells these DB9 shells any longer. Off to
> Digikey/Mouser I go...
>
> 73
> -john W4PAH
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: [K3] splitting RS232 output for 2 serial ports

In reply to this post by John Shadle

John,

I would suggest that you use the "one transistor keying circuit" (Google
and you will find many sources) for the keying and PTT. Connect the
output of the one transistor keyer to the K3 rear panel keying input and
PTT input.

You will still have the problem that the computer will activate those
signals when the computer boots, so boot the computer and than turn on
the K3 - or take other common sense precautions like switching the K3 to
a dummy load during computer boot times.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/7/2012 5:38 PM, John Shadle wrote:

> Hi all,
> I'm trying to accomplish keying with my K3 using the RS232 port and a
> COM port on my desktop computer.
>
> I currently use the RS232 for station logging to provide frequency,
> mode, etc. information and for rig control (e.g., click on a spot and
> then the radio changes frequency/mode). Unfortunately, the program I
> use (AC Log by N3FJP) does not allow you to choose the same COM port
> for both rig control and CW keying.
>
> My question is whether or not I could use a splitter of some type (at
> the K3) to go to 2 separate ports (e.g., COM 1 and COM 2), then use
> COM 1 for rig control and COM 2 for keying. Has anyone else done this?
> Is this acceptable practice?
>
> Thanks!
> -john W4PAH
> Madison, WI
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: [K3] splitting RS232 output for 2 serial ports

In reply to this post by John Shadle

If you're going to use two ports on the computer anyway, why not
simply build the usual resistor/NPN transistor driver into the
DB9 shell (or CW plug) and connect CW to the key in jack on the
K3?

That keeps the cables separate and avoids the need for a custom
cable for computer control.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 8/7/2012 5:38 PM, John Shadle wrote:

John Shadle

Re: [K3] splitting RS232 output for 2 serial ports

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Thanks, Don. Are you talking about the "PTT IN" and "KEY OUT" RCA jacks?

I Googled "one transistor keying circuit" and it came back with some
amplifier keying circuits. Is that what I should be looking for, or
something else? I'm sure the answer is obvious, but I'm just having a
hard time seeing it. ;-)

Take care.
-john W4PAH

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 6:20 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> John,
>
> I would suggest that you use the "one transistor keying circuit" (Google and
> you will find many sources) for the keying and PTT. Connect the output of
> the one transistor keyer to the K3 rear panel keying input and PTT input.
>
> You will still have the problem that the computer will activate those
> signals when the computer boots, so boot the computer and than turn on the
> K3 - or take other common sense precautions like switching the K3 to a dummy
> load during computer boot times.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>
> On 8/7/2012 5:38 PM, John Shadle wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>> I'm trying to accomplish keying with my K3 using the RS232 port and a
>> COM port on my desktop computer.
>>
>> I currently use the RS232 for station logging to provide frequency,
>> mode, etc. information and for rig control (e.g., click on a spot and
>> then the radio changes frequency/mode). Unfortunately, the program I
>> use (AC Log by N3FJP) does not allow you to choose the same COM port
>> for both rig control and CW keying.
>>
>> My question is whether or not I could use a splitter of some type (at
>> the K3) to go to 2 separate ports (e.g., COM 1 and COM 2), then use
>> COM 1 for rig control and COM 2 for keying. Has anyone else done this?
>> Is this acceptable practice?
>>
>> Thanks!
>> -john W4PAH
>> Madison, WI
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>

Iain MacDonnell - N6ML-2

Fwd: [K3] splitting RS232 output for 2 serial ports

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: iain macdonnell - N6ML <[hidden email]>
Date: Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] splitting RS232 output for 2 serial ports
To: John Shadle <[hidden email]>

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 3:27 PM, John Shadle <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Thanks, Don. Are you talking about the "PTT IN" and "KEY OUT" RCA jacks?

PTT and KEY (not KEY OUT - that's for your amplifier),

> I Googled "one transistor keying circuit" and it came back with some
> amplifier keying circuits. Is that what I should be looking for, or
> something else? I'm sure the answer is obvious, but I'm just having a
> hard time seeing it. ;-)

Example circuits at http://www.dxlabsuite.com/dxlabwiki/CWConnection

If you want to use PTT (instead of VOX/QSK), you'll need two of those circuits.

73,

~iain / N6ML

> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 6:20 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> John,
>>
>> I would suggest that you use the "one transistor keying circuit" (Google and
>> you will find many sources) for the keying and PTT. Connect the output of
>> the one transistor keyer to the K3 rear panel keying input and PTT input.
>>
>> You will still have the problem that the computer will activate those
>> signals when the computer boots, so boot the computer and than turn on the
>> K3 - or take other common sense precautions like switching the K3 to a dummy
>> load during computer boot times.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>>
>> On 8/7/2012 5:38 PM, John Shadle wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>> I'm trying to accomplish keying with my K3 using the RS232 port and a
>>> COM port on my desktop computer.
>>>
>>> I currently use the RS232 for station logging to provide frequency,
>>> mode, etc. information and for rig control (e.g., click on a spot and
>>> then the radio changes frequency/mode). Unfortunately, the program I
>>> use (AC Log by N3FJP) does not allow you to choose the same COM port
>>> for both rig control and CW keying.
>>>
>>> My question is whether or not I could use a splitter of some type (at
>>> the K3) to go to 2 separate ports (e.g., COM 1 and COM 2), then use
>>> COM 1 for rig control and COM 2 for keying. Has anyone else done this?
>>> Is this acceptable practice?
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>> -john W4PAH
>>> Madison, WI
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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Richard Ferch

Re: [K3] splitting RS232 output for 2 serial ports

In reply to this post by John Shadle

You're talking about connecting one RS-232 connector on the radio to two
COM ports on the computer, right? You need to think about which lines
are driven at which end. TxD, RTS and DTR signals are all created at the
computer to be read at the other end; connecting line drivers from two
different COM ports to the same receiver on these lines might not work.
RxD comes from the radio to the computer; splitting it out to two COM
ports might be OK, but wouldn't serve any purpose.

I think it'd be safer just to route DTR and RTS to one COM port and
leave its RxD and TxD unconnected, and route TxD and RxD to the other
COM port and leave its DTR and RTS unconnected.

73,
Rich VE3KI

W4AFP wrote:

> Do you think there would be a problem in letting both signals pass
> through to both COM ports? Wouldn't COM 1 only "look" for the
> appropriate rig control signals and COM 2 only "look" for the
> appropriate CW keying signals? Or not...?

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: [K3] splitting RS232 output for 2 serial ports

In reply to this post by John Shadle

John (and information for all)

You need to think about the fact that you are connecting two drivers
together.
Then think about the fact that RS-232 drivers can provide output that
ranges from +25 volts to -25 volts - OK most PC based ports do not have
that much voltage, +12 and -5 volts is more common in the PC world.

Those drivers are voltage sources (generators).
If both drivers are in an idle (space) state, there may not be a
problem, they are both trying to produce a positive voltage. However
when one of them wants to send data, its output tries to go negative.
So we have one driver trying to source a positive voltage and the other
driver trying to source a negative voltage. The best case result is
that the voltage will "settle in" at some level between the two voltages
- but that will be close to zero volts (absolute) and below the
threshold where the receiver recognizes a valid signal voltage, but the
more probable will be that the drivers will draw current from one
another damaging either one of the semiconductor junctions or its
positive or negative pullup resistor - whichever is weakest.

In other words - never connect 2 RS-232 drivers together. Multiple
receivers are OK, but multiple drivers are a "No-No"

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/7/2012 5:54 PM, John Shadle wrote:

> Do you think there would be a problem in letting both signals pass
> through to both COM ports? Wouldn't COM 1 only "look" for the
> appropriate rig control signals and COM 2 only "look" for the
> appropriate CW keying signals? Or not...?
>
> Thanks, Iain!
> -john W4PAH
>
> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 5:51 PM, iain macdonnell - N6ML <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 2:38 PM, John Shadle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>> I'm trying to accomplish keying with my K3 using the RS232 port and a
>>> COM port on my desktop computer.
>>>
>>> I currently use the RS232 for station logging to provide frequency,
>>> mode, etc. information and for rig control (e.g., click on a spot and
>>> then the radio changes frequency/mode). Unfortunately, the program I
>>> use (AC Log by N3FJP) does not allow you to choose the same COM port
>>> for both rig control and CW keying.
>>>
>>> My question is whether or not I could use a splitter of some type (at
>>> the K3) to go to 2 separate ports (e.g., COM 1 and COM 2), then use
>>> COM 1 for rig control and COM 2 for keying. Has anyone else done this?
>>> Is this acceptable practice?
>> Sure! It'd probably be safest to make the splitter yourself - the
>> "rig-control" side needs TXD, RXD and ground, and the keying side
>> needs RTS, DTR and ground.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ~iain / N6ML
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: [K3] splitting RS232 output for 2 serial ports

In reply to this post by John Shadle

John,

I am talking about the PTT IN and the KEY jacks on the back of the K3 -
not KEYOUT - that is an output, you are looking for inputs to the K3.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/7/2012 6:27 PM, John Shadle wrote:

> Thanks, Don. Are you talking about the "PTT IN" and "KEY OUT" RCA jacks?
>
> I Googled "one transistor keying circuit" and it came back with some
> amplifier keying circuits. Is that what I should be looking for, or
> something else? I'm sure the answer is obvious, but I'm just having a
> hard time seeing it. ;-)
>
> Take care.
> -john W4PAH
>
> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 6:20 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> John,
>>
>> I would suggest that you use the "one transistor keying circuit" (Google and
>> you will find many sources) for the keying and PTT. Connect the output of
>> the one transistor keyer to the K3 rear panel keying input and PTT input.
>>
>> You will still have the problem that the computer will activate those
>> signals when the computer boots, so boot the computer and than turn on the
>> K3 - or take other common sense precautions like switching the K3 to a dummy
>> load during computer boot times.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>>
>> On 8/7/2012 5:38 PM, John Shadle wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>> I'm trying to accomplish keying with my K3 using the RS232 port and a
>>> COM port on my desktop computer.
>>>
>>> I currently use the RS232 for station logging to provide frequency,
>>> mode, etc. information and for rig control (e.g., click on a spot and
>>> then the radio changes frequency/mode). Unfortunately, the program I
>>> use (AC Log by N3FJP) does not allow you to choose the same COM port
>>> for both rig control and CW keying.
>>>
>>> My question is whether or not I could use a splitter of some type (at
>>> the K3) to go to 2 separate ports (e.g., COM 1 and COM 2), then use
>>> COM 1 for rig control and COM 2 for keying. Has anyone else done this?
>>> Is this acceptable practice?
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>> -john W4PAH
>>> Madison, WI
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: [K3] splitting RS232 output for 2 serial ports

In reply to this post by John Shadle

John,

The "no frills" one transistor circuit can be found at
http://www.aa5au.com/rttyinterface.html
If you want to add a series resistor and a diode to protect the
transistor from negative voltage excursions, take a look at the circuit
for PTT in http://www.qsl.net/w/wm2u/psk31.html.
There are also optocoupler solutions that do the same function.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/7/2012 6:27 PM, John Shadle wrote:

W7GJ, Lance

Re: [K3] splitting RS232 output for 2 serial ports

In reply to this post by John Shadle

Hi John,

As Don explained, you can use the ubiquitous 2N2222 transistor circuit to either
ground your PTT line from the RTS line of the serial port or KEY your transmitter
from the DTR line of theRS232. He also mentioned the optoisolator and that little
50 cent chip is very convenient ;-) I explained how you can use that on my web page:

http://www.bigskyspaces.com/w7gj/KX3.htm

GL and VY 73, Lance

On 8/7/2012 10:27 PM, John Shadle wrote:

--
Lance Collister, W7GJ
(ex WA3GPL, WA1JXN, WA1JXN/C6A, ZF2OC/ZF8, E51SIX, 3D2LR, 5W0GJ)
P.O. Box 73
Frenchtown, MT 59834-0073
USA
TEL: (406) 626-5728
QTH: DN27ub
URL: http://www.bigskyspaces.com/w7gj
Windows Messenger: [hidden email]
Skype: lanceW7GJ
2m DXCC #11/6m DXCC #815

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