K3: too easy to overwrite dial memories

[Leigh L. Klotz Jr WA5ZNU]

For about the 3rd or 4th time I've tapped V->M, selected a memory (on of
the 60m spot frequencies, the only global memories I have), rotated the
VFO dial, and then tapped V->M again and overwrote the memory with the
current VFO setting.

Once the 2nd RX gets out it would be nice to get some attention paid to
the memories; channel mode, especially for 60m but probably also for
general use (think mobile ops; another K3 owner has suggested the VFO B
knob for this.), making it harder to overwrite, etc.

Leigh/WA5ZNU

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[Ian Maude]

Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. wrote:
> For about the 3rd or 4th time I've tapped V->M, selected a memory (on
> of the 60m spot frequencies, the only global memories I have), rotated
> the VFO dial, and then tapped V->M again and overwrote the memory with
> the current VFO setting.
> Once the 2nd RX gets out it would be nice to get some attention paid
> to the memories; channel mode, especially for 60m but probably also
> for general use (think mobile ops; another K3 owner has suggested the
> VFO B knob for this.), making it harder to overwrite, etc.
I *totally* agree Leigh!  My brain gets mixed up between the two and
this started to frustrate me so much that I have stopped using the
memories.  I had set up to use band switching this way and for channel
hopping on 60m but I kept overwriting them.  Please can we have a more
robust way of protecting the memories?

73 Ian

--

Ian J Maude, G0VGS
SysOp GB7MBC DX Cluster
Member RSGB, GQRP
K2 #4044 |K3 #455

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[Ken Wagner K3IU]

I guess I don't understand and so far I only use the memories for
"bandswitching." Isn't tapping "V->M" *supposed* to write whatever is in
the VFO to whatever memory is selected." What am I missing???
73,
Ken K3IU
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ian J Maude wrote:

> Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. wrote:
>> For about the 3rd or 4th time I've tapped V->M, selected a memory (on
>> of the 60m spot frequencies, the only global memories I have),
>> rotated the VFO dial, and then tapped V->M again and overwrote the
>> memory with the current VFO setting.
>> Once the 2nd RX gets out it would be nice to get some attention paid
>> to the memories; channel mode, especially for 60m but probably also
>> for general use (think mobile ops; another K3 owner has suggested the
>> VFO B knob for this.), making it harder to overwrite, etc.
> I *totally* agree Leigh!  My brain gets mixed up between the two and
> this started to frustrate me so much that I have stopped using the
> memories.  I had set up to use band switching this way and for channel
> hopping on 60m but I kept overwriting them.  Please can we have a more
> robust way of protecting the memories?
>
> 73 Ian
>

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[M0XDF]

I think people are saying it's to easy to tap the wrong button?
I for one have done this a couple of times.
I've also been in cONFIG and then held PF2 - wishing to use the  
function on it and of course overwritten the function with whichever  
CONFIG option I'm on at the time.

It's my fault of course, just finger hassle, but it happens - perhaps  
a confirmation press, like needing to press AFX to confirm?
--
The rung of a ladder was never meant to rest upon, but only to hold a  
man's
foot long enough to enable him to put the other somewhat higher.
-Thomas Henry Huxley, biologist and writer (1825-1995)

On 29 May 2008, at 09:52, Ken K3IU wrote:

> I guess I don't understand and so far I only use the memories for  
> "bandswitching." Isn't tapping "V->M" *supposed* to write whatever  
> is in the VFO to whatever memory is selected." What am I missing???
> 73,
> Ken K3IU
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Ian J Maude wrote:
>> Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. wrote:
>>> For about the 3rd or 4th time I've tapped V->M, selected a memory  
>>> (on of the 60m spot frequencies, the only global memories I have),  
>>> rotated the VFO dial, and then tapped V->M again and overwrote the  
>>> memory with the current VFO setting.
>>> Once the 2nd RX gets out it would be nice to get some attention  
>>> paid to the memories; channel mode, especially for 60m but  
>>> probably also for general use (think mobile ops; another K3 owner  
>>> has suggested the VFO B knob for this.), making it harder to  
>>> overwrite, etc.
>> I *totally* agree Leigh!  My brain gets mixed up between the two  
>> and this started to frustrate me so much that I have stopped using  
>> the memories.  I had set up to use band switching this way and for  
>> channel hopping on 60m but I kept overwriting them.  Please can we  
>> have a more robust way of protecting the memories?
>>

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[Stewart Baker]

Although there are some young people coming into the hobby, a
large proportion (myself included) are of the more senior variety.

I find that it is far too easy when it comes to using the K3
memories to press the "wrong" button, and overwrite something one
wanted to keep. This action is normally followed by "Blast" or
some similar expletive !!

My tired brain cannot come up with how it might be made more
difficult for this to occur, but I'm sure someone else can..

73
Stewart G3RXQ
On Thu, 29 May 2008 08:31:17 +0100, Ian J Maude wrote:
> Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. wrote:
>> For about the 3rd or 4th time I've tapped V->M, selected a
memory (on
>> of the 60m spot frequencies, the only global memories I have),
rotated
>> the VFO dial, and then tapped V->M again and overwrote the
memory with
>> the current VFO setting.
>> Once the 2nd RX gets out it would be nice to get some attention
paid
>> to the memories; channel mode, especially for 60m but probably
also
>> for general use (think mobile ops; another K3 owner has
suggested the
>> VFO B knob for this.), making it harder to overwrite, etc.
> I *totally* agree Leigh!  My brain gets mixed up between the two
and
> this started to frustrate me so much that I have stopped using
the
> memories.  I had set up to use band switching this way and for
channel
> hopping on 60m but I kept overwriting them.  Please can we have
a more
> robust way of protecting the memories?
>
> 73 Ian


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[David Cutter]

Thinking about the old tape recorders: it was made harder to over-record an existing recording by having to press 2 buttons at once.  Is this possible?

David
G3UNA
>

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[M0XDF]

might be worthwhile keeping some memories that don't require that - I  
keep 00 to 09 for storing some frequency i want to come back to  
shortly - I'm not using M1-M4 for that since I store various frequency  
in them for the band - like start of band, start of SSB, end of SSB etc

more suggestions?
--
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
-Arthur C Clarke, science fiction writer (1917-2008)

On 29 May 2008, at 12:58, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thinking about the old tape recorders: it was made harder to over-
> record an existing recording by having to press 2 buttons at once.  
> Is this possible?

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[Joe Planisky]

How about a single level 'undo' or 'Recycle Bin' that saves the last  
modified memory contents.  That way, if you realize you've overwritten  
a memory by mistake, you can 'undo' to get the original contents back.

73
--
Joe KB8AP

On May 29, 2008, at 5:17 AM, David Ferrington, M0XDF wrote:

> might be worthwhile keeping some memories that don't require that -  
> I keep 00 to 09 for storing some frequency i want to come back to  
> shortly - I'm not using M1-M4 for that since I store various  
> frequency in them for the band - like start of band, start of SSB,  
> end of SSB etc
>
> more suggestions?
> --
> Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
> -Arthur C Clarke, science fiction writer (1917-2008)
>
> On 29 May 2008, at 12:58, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Thinking about the old tape recorders: it was made harder to over-
>> record an existing recording by having to press 2 buttons at once.  
>> Is this possible?
>
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[M0XDF]

that is a very good idea
--  
There is a coherent plan in the universe,
though I don't know what it is a plan for.
                                             - Fred Hoyle

On 29 May 2008, at 13:51, Joe Planisky wrote:

> How about a single level 'undo' or 'Recycle Bin' that saves the last  
> modified memory contents.  That way, if you realize you've  
> overwritten a memory by mistake, you can 'undo' to get the original  
> contents back.
>
> 73
> --
> Joe KB8AP
>
> On May 29, 2008, at 5:17 AM, David Ferrington, M0XDF wrote:
>
>> might be worthwhile keeping some memories that don't require that -  
>> I keep 00 to 09 for storing some frequency i want to come back to  
>> shortly - I'm not using M1-M4 for that since I store various  
>> frequency in them for the band - like start of band, start of SSB,  
>> end of SSB etc
>>
>> more suggestions?
>>

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[Eric Scace K3NA]

   In the world of ergonomics and man-machine interface design, there is
a rule:  If an action will destroy information  or a state than cannot
be restored with the same effort that it took to destroy, then the
system requires either (a) a "Un-Do" function of equal simplicity, or
(b) a confirmation step.

   The choice between (a) or (b) depends on the consequences of the
unintended action during the time it takes to recover.  For example, a
(hypothetical!) button that shuts down the jet engines on an aircraft
requires a confirmation step... because turning off the engines until
the pilot hits UnDo would be bad!

   This rule applies to software as well as hardware.

-- Eric K3NA
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[Phil Salas]

"How about a single level 'undo' or 'Recycle Bin' that saves the last
modified memory contents.  That way, if you realize you've overwritten
a memory by mistake, you can 'undo' to get the original contents back."

Or maybe just require two presses of V>M?  That's the way one of my talkies
works.  When I hit V>M, the memory number flashes.  Hitting V>M again stores
the info in that memory.

Phil - AD5X

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[Julian, G4ILO]

Eric Scace K3NA wrote

   In the world of ergonomics and man-machine interface design, there is
a rule:  If an action will destroy information  or a state than cannot
be restored with the same effort that it took to destroy, then the
system requires either (a) a "Un-Do" function of equal simplicity, or
(b) a confirmation step.

   The choice between (a) or (b) depends on the consequences of the
unintended action during the time it takes to recover.  For example, a
(hypothetical!) button that shuts down the jet engines on an aircraft
requires a confirmation step... because turning off the engines until
the pilot hits UnDo would be bad!

   This rule applies to software as well as hardware.

True, but we're talking about a microcontroller in a radio not a computer with ever expandable memory. A recent firmware change moved data to the front panel memory to free up space on the main controller, so presumably the developers are getting concerned about space already.

I'd prefer to see features added that gave on-air functionality, not "Are you sure? OK / Cancel" nagging beloved of Windows. After the first few times of overwriting a memory, you learn not to do it.

[David Cutter]

Would your rule be covered if you had to hold in another button at the same
time as hitting the memory button?  Or, say, turn the power to zero before
making memory additions...

David
G3UNA

>   In the world of ergonomics and man-machine interface design, there is a
> rule:  If an action will destroy information  or a state than cannot be
> restored with the same effort that it took to destroy, then the system
> requires either (a) a "Un-Do" function of equal simplicity, or (b) a
> confirmation step.
>
>   The choice between (a) or (b) depends on the consequences of the
> unintended action during the time it takes to recover.  For example, a
> (hypothetical!) button that shuts down the jet engines on an aircraft
> requires a confirmation step... because turning off the engines until the
> pilot hits UnDo would be bad!
>
>   This rule applies to software as well as hardware.
>
> -- Eric K3NA

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[oe9fwv]

Phil,

Phil & Debbie Salas schrieb am 29 May 2008 um 10:57:

> Or maybe just require two presses of V>M?  That's the way one of my talkies
> works.  When I hit V>M, the memory number flashes.  Hitting V>M again
> stores the info in that memory.

I find this a very good proposal.

73! de Werner OE9FWV



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[M0XDF]

no way do it want to drop power to zero, just so i can load a memory
--  
The trees that are slow to grow bear the best fruit.
-Moliere, actor and playwright (1622-1673)

On 29 May 2008, at 17:49, David Cutter wrote:

> Would your rule be covered if you had to hold in another button at  
> the same time as hitting the memory button?  Or, say, turn the power  
> to zero before making memory additions...
>
> David
> G3UNA
>
>
>>  In the world of ergonomics and man-machine interface design, there  
>> is a rule:  If an action will destroy information  or a state than  
>> cannot be restored with the same effort that it took to destroy,  
>> then the system requires either (a) a "Un-Do" function of equal  
>> simplicity, or (b) a confirmation step.
>>
>>  The choice between (a) or (b) depends on the consequences of the  
>> unintended action during the time it takes to recover.  For  
>> example, a (hypothetical!) button that shuts down the jet engines  
>> on an aircraft requires a confirmation step... because turning off  
>> the engines until the pilot hits UnDo would be bad!
>>
>>  This rule applies to software as well as hardware.
>>
>> -- Eric K3NA
>

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[hank k8dd-3-2]

And then it would be nice to hear the memory when you press M>VFO as
you step through the memories.

73    Hank    K8DD


 --
'Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their
level then beat you with experience.' -anon
--


Phil & Debbie Salas schrieb am 29 May 2008 um 10:57:

> Or maybe just require two presses of V>M?  That's the way one of my talkies
> works.  When I hit V>M, the memory number flashes.  Hitting V>M again
> stores the info in that memory.


     
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[KENT TRIMBLE]

Guys . . .

This is much ado about nothing.  Just LEARN how the K3 does memory
storage and retrieval and it will become second-nature to you.

During the first week or two following assembly I overwrote some
memories a time or two myself . . . until I trained myself not to.  In
the nine months since, I have not overwritten anything.

As has been said for a full year now, the K3 is a complicated piece of
gear.  At least initially.  A complicated radio requires understanding
and effort on the owner's part.  If you wish not to exert the required
effort (no shame in that), there are several good entry-level rigs out
there by competent manufacturers, both foreign and domestic.  But there
is no reason to demand reinvention of the front panel and associated
circuitry merely because you find certain features awkward at first.


K9ZTV
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[Ian Maude]

K9ZTV wrote:

> Guys . . .
>
> This is much ado about nothing.  Just LEARN how the K3 does memory
> storage and retrieval and it will become second-nature to you.
>
> During the first week or two following assembly I overwrote some
> memories a time or two myself . . . until I trained myself not to.  In
> the nine months since, I have not overwritten anything.
>
> As has been said for a full year now, the K3 is a complicated piece of
> gear.  At least initially.  A complicated radio requires understanding
> and effort on the owner's part.  If you wish not to exert the required
> effort (no shame in that), there are several good entry-level rigs out
> there by competent manufacturers, both foreign and domestic.  But
> there is no reason to demand reinvention of the front panel and
> associated circuitry merely because you find certain features awkward
> at first.

With respect Kent, (and I know your email was not aimed at me) I did not
ask for any such reinvention of the front panel.  I simply stated that
it is easy (and frustrating) to overwrite memories.  I am also not
afraid of exerting myself to learn the radio.  My point is that it
should not be possible to 'accidentally' overwrite a memory.  I do not
need multiple stacking thingummies or anything like that, I simply want
to be able to put memories in there and not be able to overwrite them by
not concentrating enough.  During a contest or some other frantic time,
my brain does not always cover every eventuality.  Come to think of it,
it is not that much good at other times :)

As an Elecraft lover for over 6 years I have no wish to use another
radio.  I simply wish to be able to use my K3 as easily as possible and
as it is basically firmware driven, I see no problem in wishing the
radio to cover my humanity.  If nobody asked for functionality or
reported issues, the K3 would not be where it is today.

73 Ian

--

Ian J Maude, G0VGS
SysOp GB7MBC DX Cluster
Member RSGB, GQRP
K2 #4044 |K3 #455

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[hank k8dd-3-2]

----- Original Message ----

From: Ian J Maude <[hidden email]>

     K9ZTV wrote:
     > Guys . . .
     >
     > This is much ado about nothing.  Just LEARN how the K3 does memory
     > storage and retrieval and it will become second-nature to you.

With respect Kent, (and I know your email was not aimed at me) I did not
ask for any such reinvention of the front panel.  I simply stated that
it is easy (and frustrating) to overwrite memories.  I am also not
afraid of exerting myself to learn the radio.  My point is that it
should not be possible to 'accidentally' overwrite a memory.  I do not
need multiple stacking thingummies or anything like that, I simply want
to be able to put memories in there and not be able to overwrite them by
not concentrating enough.  During a contest or some other frantic time,
my brain does not always cover every eventuality.  Come to think of it,
it is not that much good at other times :)

As an Elecraft lover for over 6 years I have no wish to use another
radio.  I simply wish to be able to use my K3 as easily as possible and
as it is basically firmware driven, I see no problem in wishing the
radio to cover my humanity.  If nobody asked for functionality or
reported issues, the K3 would not be where it is today.

73 Ian

--

Ian J Maude, G0VGS
SysOp GB7MBC DX Cluster
Member RSGB, GQRP
K2 #4044 |K3 #455

<end quote>

Hear, hear -- Well said, Ian.

Hank    K8DD



     
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[M0XDF]

At the risk of offending someone - computers (and the K3 has a certain  
amount of that) should be programmed to serve humanity and not the  
other way around.
I've been in IT 39 years and there was a time when I accepted that a  
human might have to work a certain way or act a certain way in order  
for the computer program to best succeed.
This is no longer the case and I don't accept that any program is so  
limited that it makes it difficult for the human.

This is what the basis of all modern computing should be. That goes  
for the K3 too, which by the way I love and am NOT complaining about,  
but I would prefer some form of confirmation step before I overwrite a  
memory.
This does not need to be a sting of 'Are You Sure', 'Are You Really  
Sure You Want To", 'Are you sure you DONT want too'! - just something  
like a contiguous two button press or one button twice is sufficient  
and that should be configurable for those that don't want that feature.
</RANT>

73 de M0XDF, K3 #174

--
I never did a day's work in my life; it was all fun. -Thomas Edison

On 30 May 2008, at 18:20, hank k8dd wrote:

> I see no problem in wishing the
> radio to cover my humanity

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