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K3 working on motorboats - possible

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dl1mdz

K3 working on motorboats - possible

Hello fellows;

You are my last hope as I cannot imagine that I am the only one in the world who wants to try that.

For many months I have been trying in vain to get tips on how to operate a K3 well on a small 13 meter motor yacht. I am talking about fresh water usage (Lake Garda in Italy), not salt water, and of a GFK built boat.

A dipole is eliminated, it is not a sailing boat. I thought of using a Tarheel Antenna, but the manufacturer advised me against it.

So normal, shortened mobile antennas, mounted on the device carrier, where also the antenna for marine radio is located, should point the way ...?

But how do I get a reasonably effective earth? I read a lot of negative things about ground plates - fast growth, the hull has to be pierced.

I have already considered laying radials from the antenna base below deck in the invisible area, but will this work...?

I am very grateful for every tip and every help - also to [hidden email]

Thanks in advance

Peter - DL1MDZ

________________________________
Peter Kaletsch GmbH | Fürstenrieder Straße 275 | 81377 München | Tel: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 0 | Fax: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 99 | [hidden email] | Handelsregisternummer HRB 108093 | Amtsgericht Muenchen | Steuer-Nr: 143/170/40017 | Geschäftsführer: Peter Kaletsch | Sitz der Gesellschaft: München |
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: K3 working on motorboats - possible

I am also very interested in answers to this question, please include me with suggestions if you email direct outside of the reflector. I have a 15.25 meter motorboat on salt water )Puget Sound.) Thank you, Kim - K7IM

[hidden email]

> On Jun 8, 2020, at 1:47 PM, Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello fellows;
>
> You are my last hope as I cannot imagine that I am the only one in the world who wants to try that.
>
> For many months I have been trying in vain to get tips on how to operate a K3 well on a small 13 meter motor yacht. I am talking about fresh water usage (Lake Garda in Italy), not salt water, and of a GFK built boat.
>
> A dipole is eliminated, it is not a sailing boat. I thought of using a Tarheel Antenna, but the manufacturer advised me against it.
>
> So normal, shortened mobile antennas, mounted on the device carrier, where also the antenna for marine radio is located, should point the way ...?
>
> But how do I get a reasonably effective earth? I read a lot of negative things about ground plates - fast growth, the hull has to be pierced.
>
> I have already considered laying radials from the antenna base below deck in the invisible area, but will this work...?
>
> I am very grateful for every tip and every help - also to [hidden email]
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Peter - DL1MDZ
>
>
> ________________________________
> Peter Kaletsch GmbH | Fürstenrieder Straße 275 | 81377 München | Tel: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 0 | Fax: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 99 | [hidden email] | Handelsregisternummer HRB 108093 | Amtsgericht Muenchen | Steuer-Nr: 143/170/40017 | Geschäftsführer: Peter Kaletsch | Sitz der Gesellschaft: München |
> Hinweis / reference:
> Die Inhalte dieser Nachricht dürfen nur für die beabsichtigten Zwecke verwendet werden. The content of this Message may only be used for the intended purposes.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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W2xj

Re: K3 working on motorboats - possible

In reply to this post by dl1mdz

try and AX1 with a tripod mount mounted to the boat and then one or two radials over the hull and into the water. Another member expressed interest in operating over salt water when additional ground is much less important.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 8, 2020, at 4:48 PM, Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello fellows;
>
> You are my last hope as I cannot imagine that I am the only one in the world who wants to try that.
>
> For many months I have been trying in vain to get tips on how to operate a K3 well on a small 13 meter motor yacht. I am talking about fresh water usage (Lake Garda in Italy), not salt water, and of a GFK built boat.
>
> A dipole is eliminated, it is not a sailing boat. I thought of using a Tarheel Antenna, but the manufacturer advised me against it.
>
> So normal, shortened mobile antennas, mounted on the device carrier, where also the antenna for marine radio is located, should point the way ...?
>
> But how do I get a reasonably effective earth? I read a lot of negative things about ground plates - fast growth, the hull has to be pierced.
>
> I have already considered laying radials from the antenna base below deck in the invisible area, but will this work...?
>
> I am very grateful for every tip and every help - also to [hidden email]
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Peter - DL1MDZ
>
>
> ________________________________
> Peter Kaletsch GmbH | Fürstenrieder Straße 275 | 81377 München | Tel: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 0 | Fax: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 99 | [hidden email] | Handelsregisternummer HRB 108093 | Amtsgericht Muenchen | Steuer-Nr: 143/170/40017 | Geschäftsführer: Peter Kaletsch | Sitz der Gesellschaft: München |
> Hinweis / reference:
> Die Inhalte dieser Nachricht dürfen nur für die beabsichtigten Zwecke verwendet werden. The content of this Message may only be used for the intended purposes.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

dl1mdz

WG: K3 working on motorboats - possible

Hi;

Thank you very much for the feedback and suggestions.

The suggested setup is surly good for testing, but I would prefer a permanent installation more and I am very sure, my wife also does Or should I say, I am sure, it's a must for here :-). And also the AX-1 limits the output to 25 watts...

Best regards

73, Peter

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: W2xj [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. Juni 2020 00:55
An: Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] K3 working on motorboats - possible

try and AX1 with a tripod mount mounted to the boat and then one or two radials over the hull and into the water. Another member expressed interest in operating over salt water when additional ground is much less important.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 8, 2020, at 4:48 PM, Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello fellows;
>
> You are my last hope as I cannot imagine that I am the only one in the world who wants to try that.
>
> For many months I have been trying in vain to get tips on how to operate a K3 well on a small 13 meter motor yacht. I am talking about fresh water usage (Lake Garda in Italy), not salt water, and of a GFK built boat.
>
> A dipole is eliminated, it is not a sailing boat. I thought of using a Tarheel Antenna, but the manufacturer advised me against it.
>
> So normal, shortened mobile antennas, mounted on the device carrier, where also the antenna for marine radio is located, should point the way ...?
>
> But how do I get a reasonably effective earth? I read a lot of negative things about ground plates - fast growth, the hull has to be pierced.
>
> I have already considered laying radials from the antenna base below deck in the invisible area, but will this work...?
>
> I am very grateful for every tip and every help - also to
> [hidden email]
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Peter - DL1MDZ
>
>
> ________________________________
> Peter Kaletsch GmbH | Fürstenrieder Straße 275 | 81377 München | Tel:
> +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 0 | Fax: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 99 | [hidden email] | Handelsregisternummer HRB 108093 | Amtsgericht Muenchen | Steuer-Nr: 143/170/40017 | Geschäftsführer: Peter Kaletsch | Sitz der Gesellschaft: München | Hinweis / reference:
> Die Inhalte dieser Nachricht dürfen nur für die beabsichtigten Zwecke verwendet werden. The content of this Message may only be used for the intended purposes.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> [hidden email]

________________________________
Peter Kaletsch GmbH | Fürstenrieder Straße 275 | 81377 München | Tel: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 0 | Fax: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 99 | [hidden email] | Handelsregisternummer HRB 108093 | Amtsgericht Muenchen | Steuer-Nr: 143/170/40017 | Geschäftsführer: Peter Kaletsch | Sitz der Gesellschaft: München |
Hinweis / reference:
Die Inhalte dieser Nachricht dürfen nur für die beabsichtigten Zwecke verwendet werden. The content of this Message may only be used for the intended purposes.
______________________________________________________________
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Jim Brown-10

Re: K3 working on motorboats - possible

In reply to this post by dl1mdz

On 6/8/2020 1:47 PM, Peter Kaletsch wrote:
> But how do I get a reasonably effective earth?
You don't need an "earth," you need a counterpoise.

VE0JS, who has sailed around the world four times on a 37-ft sail boat,
loads the backstay against a sintered bronze plate in the water. I
suggest that you do something similar for the vertical, and one or more
wires strong along the boat as a counterpoise. She has a remote tuner at
the base; the feedline in your boat will probably be short enough that
you can use a tuner built into the radio.

A bunch of us in North America have worked her from the south Indian
Ocean on 40M. She's running an ICOM marine radio, SSB only, with no
voice processing. Check out her qrz page.

73, Jim K9YC
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Barry LaZar

Re: K3 working on motorboats - possible

In reply to this post by dl1mdz

Peter,
I have used HF radios marine mobile here on Chesapeake Bay near
Annapolis. The water here is brackish and not real salt water. I had a
sail boat and loaded the backstay against a ground in the water that
represented more than the 100 square feed that the Coast Guard
requires. What I discovered is that non-saltwater ground are not great.
I had a lot of RF all over the place. I finally put up an inverted V
held up by my main halyard; this worked well and overcame the RF on
everything issue.

In your case, I would suggest that you not try a Tarheel or any
antenna that requires a good ground as fresh water is a terrible ground.
The boaters that do use marine HF mostly use a 23 foot fiberglass
antenna worked against ground and a remote antenna tuner, but they are
really salty water. This won't work for you. Therefore, what I suggest
is that you put up one of the good expandable, push up masts, say ~25
feet and hang a 40 meter inverted V on it; it should just fit on a 13
foot boat as long as the legs aren't straight. A 4:1 CURRENT balun will
allow all band operations above 40 and the Elecraft tuner should work
great on this system. I suspect you have a flybridge on a boat that
large, and if so, mount the pushup mast on the deck section just out
side the bridge. The added height will buy you a small amount in
lowering the angle of arrival for this antenna a bit; every little bit
helps. Feed the system with coax like Belden 9913 or Times Wire LM400.
The SWR will be high on most of the bands but should be in the Elecraft
range, more importantly, is containing the losses associated with high
SWR.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

------ Original Message ------
From: "Peter Kaletsch" <[hidden email]>
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 6/8/2020 4:47:08 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 working on motorboats - possible

>Hello fellows;
>
>You are my last hope as I cannot imagine that I am the only one in the world who wants to try that.
>
>For many months I have been trying in vain to get tips on how to operate a K3 well on a small 13 meter motor yacht. I am talking about fresh water usage (Lake Garda in Italy), not salt water, and of a GFK built boat.
>
>A dipole is eliminated, it is not a sailing boat. I thought of using a Tarheel Antenna, but the manufacturer advised me against it.
>
>So normal, shortened mobile antennas, mounted on the device carrier, where also the antenna for marine radio is located, should point the way ...?
>
>But how do I get a reasonably effective earth? I read a lot of negative things about ground plates - fast growth, the hull has to be pierced.
>
>I have already considered laying radials from the antenna base below deck in the invisible area, but will this work...?
>
>I am very grateful for every tip and every help - also to [hidden email]
>
>Thanks in advance
>
>Peter - DL1MDZ
>
>
>________________________________
>Peter Kaletsch GmbH | Fürstenrieder Straße 275 | 81377 München | Tel: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 0 | Fax: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 99 | [hidden email] | Handelsregisternummer HRB 108093 | Amtsgericht Muenchen | Steuer-Nr: 143/170/40017 | Geschäftsführer: Peter Kaletsch | Sitz der Gesellschaft: München |
>Hinweis / reference:
>Die Inhalte dieser Nachricht dürfen nur für die beabsichtigten Zwecke verwendet werden. The content of this Message may only be used for the intended purposes.
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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W2xj

Re: K3 working on motorboats - possible

In reply to this post by dl1mdz

Sorry, I misread the original post and thought it was a KX33 and not a K33.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 8, 2020, at 7:14 PM, Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi;
>
> Thank you very much for the feedback and suggestions.
>
> The suggested setup is surly good for testing, but I would prefer a permanent installation more and I am very sure, my wife also does Or should I say, I am sure, it's a must for here :-). And also the AX-1 limits the output to 25 watts...
>
> Best regards
>
> 73, Peter
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: W2xj [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. Juni 2020 00:55
> An: Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] K3 working on motorboats - possible
>
> try and AX1 with a tripod mount mounted to the boat and then one or two radials over the hull and into the water. Another member expressed interest in operating over salt water when additional ground is much less important.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Jun 8, 2020, at 4:48 PM, Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hello fellows;
>>
>> You are my last hope as I cannot imagine that I am the only one in the world who wants to try that.
>>
>> For many months I have been trying in vain to get tips on how to operate a K3 well on a small 13 meter motor yacht. I am talking about fresh water usage (Lake Garda in Italy), not salt water, and of a GFK built boat.
>>
>> A dipole is eliminated, it is not a sailing boat. I thought of using a Tarheel Antenna, but the manufacturer advised me against it.
>>
>> So normal, shortened mobile antennas, mounted on the device carrier, where also the antenna for marine radio is located, should point the way ...?
>>
>> But how do I get a reasonably effective earth? I read a lot of negative things about ground plates - fast growth, the hull has to be pierced.
>>
>> I have already considered laying radials from the antenna base below deck in the invisible area, but will this work...?
>>
>> I am very grateful for every tip and every help - also to
>> [hidden email]
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>> Peter - DL1MDZ
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> Peter Kaletsch GmbH | Fürstenrieder Straße 275 | 81377 München | Tel:
>> +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 0 | Fax: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 99 | [hidden email] | Handelsregisternummer HRB 108093 | Amtsgericht Muenchen | Steuer-Nr: 143/170/40017 | Geschäftsführer: Peter Kaletsch | Sitz der Gesellschaft: München | Hinweis / reference:
>> Die Inhalte dieser Nachricht dürfen nur für die beabsichtigten Zwecke verwendet werden. The content of this Message may only be used for the intended purposes.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
>> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
>> [hidden email]
>
> ________________________________
> Peter Kaletsch GmbH | Fürstenrieder Straße 275 | 81377 München | Tel: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 0 | Fax: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 99 | [hidden email] | Handelsregisternummer HRB 108093 | Amtsgericht Muenchen | Steuer-Nr: 143/170/40017 | Geschäftsführer: Peter Kaletsch | Sitz der Gesellschaft: München |
> Hinweis / reference:
> Die Inhalte dieser Nachricht dürfen nur für die beabsichtigten Zwecke verwendet werden. The content of this Message may only be used for the intended purposes.

John Langdon

Re: K3 working on motorboats - possible

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

The shrimp boats often used a 108" stainless steel CB whip on a spring, and a large copper plate on the outside of the hull under water. They got out very well on 11M. With modern rigs and built in tuners, you could probably do well on 10, 12, 15 and 17 M too.

73 John N5CQ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 7:18 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 working on motorboats - possible

On 6/8/2020 1:47 PM, Peter Kaletsch wrote:
> But how do I get a reasonably effective earth?
You don't need an "earth," you need a counterpoise.

VE0JS, who has sailed around the world four times on a 37-ft sail boat, loads the backstay against a sintered bronze plate in the water. I suggest that you do something similar for the vertical, and one or more wires strong along the boat as a counterpoise. She has a remote tuner at the base; the feedline in your boat will probably be short enough that you can use a tuner built into the radio.

A bunch of us in North America have worked her from the south Indian Ocean on 40M. She's running an ICOM marine radio, SSB only, with no voice processing. Check out her qrz page.

73, Jim K9YC
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email]
______________________________________________________________
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Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Kurt Pawlikowski

Re: K3 working on motorboats - possible

In reply to this post by dl1mdz

Peter,

In general, any vertical works lots better with more radials. As
fresh water is a fairly poor conductor, the more the merrier!
Unfortunately, because most boats are wooden/fiberglass, what you can
add helps. I don't know if they have to be 1/4 wavelength (I've read yes
and some say at least 0.20 wavelength). For HF, this would be some
serious lengths for most boats! I expect you'd have to load them similar
to the vertical element, but I haven't read anything regarding loading
radials: It's just a guess. I suppose one could attempt to replicate, to
some extent, a solid ground plane with foil or some other conductor
(maybe chicken wire?). It would seem a lot of work (and probably is!).
If you're insistent on a vertical, it's a narrow field of variability.
Some of the portable antenna's can make loaded dipoles or verticals,
which would operate fairly well without a ground plane. Another option
might be a magnetic loop (which doesn't care much about "ground" per se.
It is affected by near-by conductors, tunes very narrowly, and is big
(compared to a mobile vertical). So, whatever you choose, it's all some
sort of compromise.

kurtt WB9FMC

On 6/8/2020 3:47 PM, Peter Kaletsch wrote:

> Hello fellows;
>
> You are my last hope as I cannot imagine that I am the only one in the world who wants to try that.
>
> For many months I have been trying in vain to get tips on how to operate a K3 well on a small 13 meter motor yacht. I am talking about fresh water usage (Lake Garda in Italy), not salt water, and of a GFK built boat.
>
> A dipole is eliminated, it is not a sailing boat. I thought of using a Tarheel Antenna, but the manufacturer advised me against it.
>
> So normal, shortened mobile antennas, mounted on the device carrier, where also the antenna for marine radio is located, should point the way ...?
>
> But how do I get a reasonably effective earth? I read a lot of negative things about ground plates - fast growth, the hull has to be pierced.
>
> I have already considered laying radials from the antenna base below deck in the invisible area, but will this work...?
>
> I am very grateful for every tip and every help - also to [hidden email]
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Peter - DL1MDZ
>
>
> ________________________________
> Peter Kaletsch GmbH | Fürstenrieder Straße 275 | 81377 München | Tel: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 0 | Fax: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 99 | [hidden email] | Handelsregisternummer HRB 108093 | Amtsgericht Muenchen | Steuer-Nr: 143/170/40017 | Geschäftsführer: Peter Kaletsch | Sitz der Gesellschaft: München |
> Hinweis / reference:
> Die Inhalte dieser Nachricht dürfen nur für die beabsichtigten Zwecke verwendet werden. The content of this Message may only be used for the intended purposes.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Barry LaZar

Re: K3 working on motorboats - possible

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Kim,
You're in better shape than Peter. You are operating in real salt
water. You could easily put up a 23' marine HF antenna or use a Tarheel
or almost anything else and you could use a Dynaplate ground, available
at West Marine or Defenders. I used a backstay against a Dynaplate on
Chesapeake Bay and in the Bahamas. Using sea water vice brackish water
made a big difference.

The issue is you need an electrical 1/2 wave. The various whip type
antenna are only 1/2 the needed antena. Thw orher half is represented in
the ground. That is why have a good ground is so important or use a
ground independent antenna like a dipole variant. See the note I just
wrote to Peter that should be here on the reflector.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

------ Original Message ------
From: "M. Bottles via Elecraft" <[hidden email]>
To: "Peter Kaletsch" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 6/8/2020 5:47:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 working on motorboats - possible

>I am also very interested in answers to this question, please include me with suggestions if you email direct outside of the reflector. I have a 15.25 meter motorboat on salt water )Puget Sound.) Thank you, Kim - K7IM
>
>[hidden email]
>
>> On Jun 8, 2020, at 1:47 PM, Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hello fellows;
>>
>> You are my last hope as I cannot imagine that I am the only one in the world who wants to try that.
>>
>> For many months I have been trying in vain to get tips on how to operate a K3 well on a small 13 meter motor yacht. I am talking about fresh water usage (Lake Garda in Italy), not salt water, and of a GFK built boat.
>>
>> A dipole is eliminated, it is not a sailing boat. I thought of using a Tarheel Antenna, but the manufacturer advised me against it.
>>
>> So normal, shortened mobile antennas, mounted on the device carrier, where also the antenna for marine radio is located, should point the way ...?
>>
>> But how do I get a reasonably effective earth? I read a lot of negative things about ground plates - fast growth, the hull has to be pierced.
>>
>> I have already considered laying radials from the antenna base below deck in the invisible area, but will this work...?
>>
>> I am very grateful for every tip and every help - also to [hidden email]
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>> Peter - DL1MDZ
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> Peter Kaletsch GmbH | Fürstenrieder Straße 275 | 81377 München | Tel: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 0 | Fax: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 99 | [hidden email] | Handelsregisternummer HRB 108093 | Amtsgericht Muenchen | Steuer-Nr: 143/170/40017 | Geschäftsführer: Peter Kaletsch | Sitz der Gesellschaft: München |
>> Hinweis / reference:
>> Die Inhalte dieser Nachricht dürfen nur für die beabsichtigten Zwecke verwendet werden. The content of this Message may only be used for the intended purposes.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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>
>______________________________________________________________
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>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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>Message delivered to [hidden email]

Barry LaZar

Re: K3 working on motorboats - possible

In reply to this post by John Langdon

Yes. This will work, but Peter is in fresh water which is not a good
ground. That means the only ground he will have is the copper plate. The
sintered metal plate, a Dynaplate, works nicely as the Coast Guard
requirement of 100 square feet, but only in saltwater. I know as I've
tried a few schemes in both brackish and saltwater.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

------ Original Message ------
From: "John Langdon" <[hidden email]>
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>;
"[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 6/8/2020 9:09:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 working on motorboats - possible

>The shrimp boats often used a 108" stainless steel CB whip on a spring, and a large copper plate on the outside of the hull under water. They got out very well on 11M. With modern rigs and built in tuners, you could probably do well on 10, 12, 15 and 17 M too.
>
>73 John N5CQ
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jim Brown
>Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 7:18 PM
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 working on motorboats - possible
>
>On 6/8/2020 1:47 PM, Peter Kaletsch wrote:
>> But how do I get a reasonably effective earth?
>You don't need an "earth," you need a counterpoise.
>
>VE0JS, who has sailed around the world four times on a 37-ft sail boat, loads the backstay against a sintered bronze plate in the water. I suggest that you do something similar for the vertical, and one or more wires strong along the boat as a counterpoise. She has a remote tuner at the base; the feedline in your boat will probably be short enough that you can use a tuner built into the radio.
>
>A bunch of us in North America have worked her from the south Indian Ocean on 40M. She's running an ICOM marine radio, SSB only, with no voice processing. Check out her qrz page.
>
>73, Jim K9YC
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email]
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>
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>Message delivered to [hidden email]

Vic Rosenthal

Re: WG: K3 working on motorboats - possible

In reply to this post by dl1mdz

Peter,

One possible solution is a fiberglass vertical antenna (6m or more if
possible) and two shortened radials. The radials can be as short as 0.10
wavelength at the lowest frequency, which might allow you to position
them fore and aft on the boat. Naturally, you should make sure nobody
can contact them while you're operating! The radials are connected
together and fed through a common inductance to achieve an electrical
length of 1/4 wavelength for each of them. Moxon discusses this type of
counterpoise in his book "HF Antennas for all locations."

You could use a remote tuner at the base, or if the cable is very short,
the tuner in the radio, to resonate the whole system. You would have to
adjust the inductor on the radials as well to change bands.

I had a 40m vertical which used a 1/4 wavelength vertical element with
four radials which were each only 3m long, fed through a common inductor
as described. My radials were about 4m above the ground. It worked quite
well.

73,
Victor, 4X6GP
Rehovot, Israel
Formerly K2VCO
CWops no. 5
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
.

On 09/06/2020 2:14, Peter Kaletsch wrote:

> Hi;
>
> Thank you very much for the feedback and suggestions.
>
> The suggested setup is surly good for testing, but I would prefer a
> permanent installation more and I am very sure, my wife also does Or
> should I say, I am sure, it's a must for here :-). And also the AX-1
> limits the output to 25 watts...
>
> Best regards
>
> 73, Peter
>
>

dl1mdz

Re: K3 working on motorboats - possible

In reply to this post by Kurt Pawlikowski

Hi folks,

Thanks a lot for all answers and information! Some I still have to read more accurate ana translate some special parts, because, as you can obviously read from my post, my English is horrible.

I tend - and of course my wife does - to have a fixed installation. So extendable fiberglass masts or something like this is not the solution we are searching for.

I will think about all suggestions, try some of them and report later this year, if there are any reporting worth solutions. We take over the boat during the next 2 weeks and after that, there is a lot of other marine stuff to do, before focusing on ham radio on board).

Further answer are highly welcomed

73, Peter

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Kurt Pawlikowski [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. Juni 2020 03:16
An: Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] K3 working on motorboats - possible

Peter,

In general, any vertical works lots better with more radials. As fresh water is a fairly poor conductor, the more the merrier!
Unfortunately, because most boats are wooden/fiberglass, what you can add helps. I don't know if they have to be 1/4 wavelength (I've read yes and some say at least 0.20 wavelength). For HF, this would be some serious lengths for most boats! I expect you'd have to load them similar to the vertical element, but I haven't read anything regarding loading
radials: It's just a guess. I suppose one could attempt to replicate, to some extent, a solid ground plane with foil or some other conductor (maybe chicken wire?). It would seem a lot of work (and probably is!).
If you're insistent on a vertical, it's a narrow field of variability.
Some of the portable antenna's can make loaded dipoles or verticals, which would operate fairly well without a ground plane. Another option might be a magnetic loop (which doesn't care much about "ground" per se.
It is affected by near-by conductors, tunes very narrowly, and is big (compared to a mobile vertical). So, whatever you choose, it's all some sort of compromise.

kurtt WB9FMC

On 6/8/2020 3:47 PM, Peter Kaletsch wrote:

> Hello fellows;
>
> You are my last hope as I cannot imagine that I am the only one in the world who wants to try that.
>
> For many months I have been trying in vain to get tips on how to operate a K3 well on a small 13 meter motor yacht. I am talking about fresh water usage (Lake Garda in Italy), not salt water, and of a GFK built boat.
>
> A dipole is eliminated, it is not a sailing boat. I thought of using a Tarheel Antenna, but the manufacturer advised me against it.
>
> So normal, shortened mobile antennas, mounted on the device carrier, where also the antenna for marine radio is located, should point the way ...?
>
> But how do I get a reasonably effective earth? I read a lot of negative things about ground plates - fast growth, the hull has to be pierced.
>
> I have already considered laying radials from the antenna base below deck in the invisible area, but will this work...?
>
> I am very grateful for every tip and every help - also to
> [hidden email]
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Peter - DL1MDZ
>
>
> ________________________________
> Peter Kaletsch GmbH | Fürstenrieder Straße 275 | 81377 München | Tel:
> +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 0 | Fax: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 99 | [hidden email] | Handelsregisternummer HRB 108093 | Amtsgericht Muenchen | Steuer-Nr: 143/170/40017 | Geschäftsführer: Peter Kaletsch | Sitz der Gesellschaft: München | Hinweis / reference:
> Die Inhalte dieser Nachricht dürfen nur für die beabsichtigten Zwecke verwendet werden. The content of this Message may only be used for the intended purposes.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> [hidden email]

W2xj

Re: K3 working on motorboats - possible

i think your engineering challenge is primarily balancing esthetics against performance.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 9, 2020, at 6:52 AM, Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi folks,
>
> Thanks a lot for all answers and information! Some I still have to read more accurate ana translate some special parts, because, as you can obviously read from my post, my English is horrible.
>
> I tend - and of course my wife does - to have a fixed installation. So extendable fiberglass masts or something like this is not the solution we are searching for.
>
> I will think about all suggestions, try some of them and report later this year, if there are any reporting worth solutions. We take over the boat during the next 2 weeks and after that, there is a lot of other marine stuff to do, before focusing on ham radio on board).
>
> Further answer are highly welcomed
>
>
> 73, Peter
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Kurt Pawlikowski [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. Juni 2020 03:16
> An: Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
> Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] K3 working on motorboats - possible
>
> Peter,
>
> In general, any vertical works lots better with more radials. As fresh water is a fairly poor conductor, the more the merrier!
> Unfortunately, because most boats are wooden/fiberglass, what you can add helps. I don't know if they have to be 1/4 wavelength (I've read yes and some say at least 0.20 wavelength). For HF, this would be some serious lengths for most boats! I expect you'd have to load them similar to the vertical element, but I haven't read anything regarding loading
> radials: It's just a guess. I suppose one could attempt to replicate, to some extent, a solid ground plane with foil or some other conductor (maybe chicken wire?). It would seem a lot of work (and probably is!).
> If you're insistent on a vertical, it's a narrow field of variability.
> Some of the portable antenna's can make loaded dipoles or verticals, which would operate fairly well without a ground plane. Another option might be a magnetic loop (which doesn't care much about "ground" per se.
> It is affected by near-by conductors, tunes very narrowly, and is big (compared to a mobile vertical). So, whatever you choose, it's all some sort of compromise.
>
> kurtt WB9FMC
>
>> On 6/8/2020 3:47 PM, Peter Kaletsch wrote:
>> Hello fellows;
>>
>> You are my last hope as I cannot imagine that I am the only one in the world who wants to try that.
>>
>> For many months I have been trying in vain to get tips on how to operate a K3 well on a small 13 meter motor yacht. I am talking about fresh water usage (Lake Garda in Italy), not salt water, and of a GFK built boat.
>>
>> A dipole is eliminated, it is not a sailing boat. I thought of using a Tarheel Antenna, but the manufacturer advised me against it.
>>
>> So normal, shortened mobile antennas, mounted on the device carrier, where also the antenna for marine radio is located, should point the way ...?
>>
>> But how do I get a reasonably effective earth? I read a lot of negative things about ground plates - fast growth, the hull has to be pierced.
>>
>> I have already considered laying radials from the antenna base below deck in the invisible area, but will this work...?
>>
>> I am very grateful for every tip and every help - also to
>> [hidden email]
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>> Peter - DL1MDZ
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> Peter Kaletsch GmbH | Fürstenrieder Straße 275 | 81377 München | Tel:
>> +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 0 | Fax: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 99 | [hidden email] | Handelsregisternummer HRB 108093 | Amtsgericht Muenchen | Steuer-Nr: 143/170/40017 | Geschäftsführer: Peter Kaletsch | Sitz der Gesellschaft: München | Hinweis / reference:
>> Die Inhalte dieser Nachricht dürfen nur für die beabsichtigten Zwecke verwendet werden. The content of this Message may only be used for the intended purposes.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
>> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
>> [hidden email]
> ________________________________
> Peter Kaletsch GmbH | Fürstenrieder Straße 275 | 81377 München | Tel: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 0 | Fax: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 99 | [hidden email] | Handelsregisternummer HRB 108093 | Amtsgericht Muenchen | Steuer-Nr: 143/170/40017 | Geschäftsführer: Peter Kaletsch | Sitz der Gesellschaft: München |
> Hinweis / reference:
> Die Inhalte dieser Nachricht dürfen nur für die beabsichtigten Zwecke verwendet werden. The content of this Message may only be used for the intended purposes.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

dl1mdz

Re: K3 working on motorboats - possible

I agree, but I think that's a common issue for married hams! Happy wife, happy live :-)

73, Peter

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: W2xj [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. Juni 2020 18:34
An: Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] K3 working on motorboats - possible

i think your engineering challenge is primarily balancing esthetics against performance.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 9, 2020, at 6:52 AM, Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi folks,
>
> Thanks a lot for all answers and information! Some I still have to read more accurate ana translate some special parts, because, as you can obviously read from my post, my English is horrible.
>
> I tend - and of course my wife does - to have a fixed installation. So extendable fiberglass masts or something like this is not the solution we are searching for.
>
> I will think about all suggestions, try some of them and report later this year, if there are any reporting worth solutions. We take over the boat during the next 2 weeks and after that, there is a lot of other marine stuff to do, before focusing on ham radio on board).
>
> Further answer are highly welcomed
>
>
> 73, Peter
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Kurt Pawlikowski [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. Juni 2020 03:16
> An: Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]>;
> [hidden email]
> Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] K3 working on motorboats - possible
>
> Peter,
>
> In general, any vertical works lots better with more radials. As fresh water is a fairly poor conductor, the more the merrier!
> Unfortunately, because most boats are wooden/fiberglass, what you can
> add helps. I don't know if they have to be 1/4 wavelength (I've read
> yes and some say at least 0.20 wavelength). For HF, this would be some
> serious lengths for most boats! I expect you'd have to load them
> similar to the vertical element, but I haven't read anything regarding
> loading
> radials: It's just a guess. I suppose one could attempt to replicate, to some extent, a solid ground plane with foil or some other conductor (maybe chicken wire?). It would seem a lot of work (and probably is!).
> If you're insistent on a vertical, it's a narrow field of variability.
> Some of the portable antenna's can make loaded dipoles or verticals, which would operate fairly well without a ground plane. Another option might be a magnetic loop (which doesn't care much about "ground" per se.
> It is affected by near-by conductors, tunes very narrowly, and is big (compared to a mobile vertical). So, whatever you choose, it's all some sort of compromise.
>
> kurtt WB9FMC
>
>> On 6/8/2020 3:47 PM, Peter Kaletsch wrote:
>> Hello fellows;
>>
>> You are my last hope as I cannot imagine that I am the only one in the world who wants to try that.
>>
>> For many months I have been trying in vain to get tips on how to operate a K3 well on a small 13 meter motor yacht. I am talking about fresh water usage (Lake Garda in Italy), not salt water, and of a GFK built boat.
>>
>> A dipole is eliminated, it is not a sailing boat. I thought of using a Tarheel Antenna, but the manufacturer advised me against it.
>>
>> So normal, shortened mobile antennas, mounted on the device carrier, where also the antenna for marine radio is located, should point the way ...?
>>
>> But how do I get a reasonably effective earth? I read a lot of negative things about ground plates - fast growth, the hull has to be pierced.
>>
>> I have already considered laying radials from the antenna base below deck in the invisible area, but will this work...?
>>
>> I am very grateful for every tip and every help - also to
>> [hidden email]
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>> Peter - DL1MDZ
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> Peter Kaletsch GmbH | Fürstenrieder Straße 275 | 81377 München | Tel:
>> +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 0 | Fax: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 99 | [hidden email] | Handelsregisternummer HRB 108093 | Amtsgericht Muenchen | Steuer-Nr: 143/170/40017 | Geschäftsführer: Peter Kaletsch | Sitz der Gesellschaft: München | Hinweis / reference:
>> Die Inhalte dieser Nachricht dürfen nur für die beabsichtigten Zwecke verwendet werden. The content of this Message may only be used for the intended purposes.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
>> email
>> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
>> [hidden email]
> ________________________________
> Peter Kaletsch GmbH | Fürstenrieder Straße 275 | 81377 München | Tel:
> +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 0 | Fax: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 99 | [hidden email] | Handelsregisternummer HRB 108093 | Amtsgericht Muenchen | Steuer-Nr: 143/170/40017 | Geschäftsführer: Peter Kaletsch | Sitz der Gesellschaft: München | Hinweis / reference:
> Die Inhalte dieser Nachricht dürfen nur für die beabsichtigten Zwecke verwendet werden. The content of this Message may only be used for the intended purposes.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> [hidden email]

W2xj

Re: K3 working on motorboats - possible

marry a ham! :-)

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 9, 2020, at 3:54 PM, Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I agree, but I think that's a common issue for married hams! Happy wife, happy live :-)
>
> 73, Peter
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: W2xj [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. Juni 2020 18:34
> An: Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] K3 working on motorboats - possible
>
> i think your engineering challenge is primarily balancing esthetics against performance.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Jun 9, 2020, at 6:52 AM, Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> Thanks a lot for all answers and information! Some I still have to read more accurate ana translate some special parts, because, as you can obviously read from my post, my English is horrible.
>>
>> I tend - and of course my wife does - to have a fixed installation. So extendable fiberglass masts or something like this is not the solution we are searching for.
>>
>> I will think about all suggestions, try some of them and report later this year, if there are any reporting worth solutions. We take over the boat during the next 2 weeks and after that, there is a lot of other marine stuff to do, before focusing on ham radio on board).
>>
>> Further answer are highly welcomed
>>
>>
>> 73, Peter
>>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: Kurt Pawlikowski [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. Juni 2020 03:16
>> An: Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]>;
>> [hidden email]
>> Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] K3 working on motorboats - possible
>>
>> Peter,
>>
>> In general, any vertical works lots better with more radials. As fresh water is a fairly poor conductor, the more the merrier!
>> Unfortunately, because most boats are wooden/fiberglass, what you can
>> add helps. I don't know if they have to be 1/4 wavelength (I've read
>> yes and some say at least 0.20 wavelength). For HF, this would be some
>> serious lengths for most boats! I expect you'd have to load them
>> similar to the vertical element, but I haven't read anything regarding
>> loading
>> radials: It's just a guess. I suppose one could attempt to replicate, to some extent, a solid ground plane with foil or some other conductor (maybe chicken wire?). It would seem a lot of work (and probably is!).
>> If you're insistent on a vertical, it's a narrow field of variability.
>> Some of the portable antenna's can make loaded dipoles or verticals, which would operate fairly well without a ground plane. Another option might be a magnetic loop (which doesn't care much about "ground" per se.
>> It is affected by near-by conductors, tunes very narrowly, and is big (compared to a mobile vertical). So, whatever you choose, it's all some sort of compromise.
>>
>> kurtt WB9FMC
>>
>>>> On 6/8/2020 3:47 PM, Peter Kaletsch wrote:
>>> Hello fellows;
>>>
>>> You are my last hope as I cannot imagine that I am the only one in the world who wants to try that.
>>>
>>> For many months I have been trying in vain to get tips on how to operate a K3 well on a small 13 meter motor yacht. I am talking about fresh water usage (Lake Garda in Italy), not salt water, and of a GFK built boat.
>>>
>>> A dipole is eliminated, it is not a sailing boat. I thought of using a Tarheel Antenna, but the manufacturer advised me against it.
>>>
>>> So normal, shortened mobile antennas, mounted on the device carrier, where also the antenna for marine radio is located, should point the way ...?
>>>
>>> But how do I get a reasonably effective earth? I read a lot of negative things about ground plates - fast growth, the hull has to be pierced.
>>>
>>> I have already considered laying radials from the antenna base below deck in the invisible area, but will this work...?
>>>
>>> I am very grateful for every tip and every help - also to
>>> [hidden email]
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance
>>>
>>> Peter - DL1MDZ
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> Peter Kaletsch GmbH | Fürstenrieder Straße 275 | 81377 München | Tel:
>>> +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 0 | Fax: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 99 | [hidden email] | Handelsregisternummer HRB 108093 | Amtsgericht Muenchen | Steuer-Nr: 143/170/40017 | Geschäftsführer: Peter Kaletsch | Sitz der Gesellschaft: München | Hinweis / reference:
>>> Die Inhalte dieser Nachricht dürfen nur für die beabsichtigten Zwecke verwendet werden. The content of this Message may only be used for the intended purposes.
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
>>> email
>>> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
>>> [hidden email]
>> ________________________________
>> Peter Kaletsch GmbH | Fürstenrieder Straße 275 | 81377 München | Tel:
>> +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 0 | Fax: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 99 | [hidden email] | Handelsregisternummer HRB 108093 | Amtsgericht Muenchen | Steuer-Nr: 143/170/40017 | Geschäftsführer: Peter Kaletsch | Sitz der Gesellschaft: München | Hinweis / reference:
>> Die Inhalte dieser Nachricht dürfen nur für die beabsichtigten Zwecke verwendet werden. The content of this Message may only be used for the intended purposes.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
>> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
>> [hidden email]
>
> ________________________________
> Peter Kaletsch GmbH | Fürstenrieder Straße 275 | 81377 München | Tel: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 0 | Fax: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 99 | [hidden email] | Handelsregisternummer HRB 108093 | Amtsgericht Muenchen | Steuer-Nr: 143/170/40017 | Geschäftsführer: Peter Kaletsch | Sitz der Gesellschaft: München |
> Hinweis / reference:
> Die Inhalte dieser Nachricht dürfen nur für die beabsichtigten Zwecke verwendet werden. The content of this Message may only be used for the intended purposes.

gt-i

Re: K3 working on motorboats - possible

In reply to this post by dl1mdz

Hello Peter,
I think it depends on your willingnes to sacrify the shape of your boat.
If you want to get heard anywhere then you either need a long vertical
plus good ground as mentioned already, or a dipole as high above sea
level as possible. The dipole may be sloped but either the feedpoint
needs to be elevated or the ends of the wire. I have operated both
configurations near fresh water with kind of satisfaction (~500km on
7/14 MHz are possible on 10Watts) , but not yet on a boat.

The Rothammel also mentions "Marineantennen" and discusses the grounding
and antenna suggestions.

Seems like an interesting experiment,
hope you get on the air soon!
73 Gernot DF5RF

BTW, you can use www.deepl.com for a quick translation to German:

"Ich denke, es hängt von Ihrer Bereitschaft ab, die Form Ihres Bootes zu
opfern. Wenn Sie irgendwo gehört werden wollen, dann brauchen Sie
entweder eine lange Vertikale plus guten Boden, wie bereits erwähnt,
oder einen Dipol so hoch über dem Meeresspiegel wie möglich. Der Dipol
kann geneigt sein, aber entweder der Speisepunkt oder die Drahtenden
müssen erhöht sein. Ich habe beide Konfigurationen in der Nähe von
Süßwasser mit einer gewissen Befriedigung betrieben (~500km auf 7/14 MHz
sind bei 10Watt möglich), aber noch nicht auf einem Boot.

Der Rothammel erwähnt auch "Marineantennen" und bespricht die Erdung und
Antennenvorschläge.

Scheint ein interessantes Experiment zu sein,
Ich hoffe, Sie gehen bald auf Sendung!

Übersetzt mit www.DeepL.com/Translator (kostenlose Version)"

Am 08.06.2020 um 22:47 schrieb Peter Kaletsch:

> Hello fellows;
>
> You are my last hope as I cannot imagine that I am the only one in the world who wants to try that.
>
> For many months I have been trying in vain to get tips on how to operate a K3 well on a small 13 meter motor yacht. I am talking about fresh water usage (Lake Garda in Italy), not salt water, and of a GFK built boat.
>
> A dipole is eliminated, it is not a sailing boat. I thought of using a Tarheel Antenna, but the manufacturer advised me against it.
>
> So normal, shortened mobile antennas, mounted on the device carrier, where also the antenna for marine radio is located, should point the way ...?
>
> But how do I get a reasonably effective earth? I read a lot of negative things about ground plates - fast growth, the hull has to be pierced.
>
> I have already considered laying radials from the antenna base below deck in the invisible area, but will this work...?
>
> I am very grateful for every tip and every help - also to [hidden email]
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Peter - DL1MDZ
>
>
> ________________________________
> Peter Kaletsch GmbH | Fürstenrieder Straße 275 | 81377 München | Tel: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 0 | Fax: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 99 | [hidden email] | Handelsregisternummer HRB 108093 | Amtsgericht Muenchen | Steuer-Nr: 143/170/40017 | Geschäftsführer: Peter Kaletsch | Sitz der Gesellschaft: München |
> Hinweis / reference:
> Die Inhalte dieser Nachricht dürfen nur für die beabsichtigten Zwecke verwendet werden. The content of this Message may only be used for the intended purposes.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

dl1mdz

Re: K3 working on motorboats - possible

In reply to this post by W2xj

No chance hihihihihi :-)

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: W2xj [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. Juni 2020 22:18
An: Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] K3 working on motorboats - possible

marry a ham! :-)

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 9, 2020, at 3:54 PM, Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I agree, but I think that's a common issue for married hams! Happy
> wife, happy live :-)
>
> 73, Peter
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: W2xj [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. Juni 2020 18:34
> An: Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] K3 working on motorboats - possible
>
> i think your engineering challenge is primarily balancing esthetics against performance.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Jun 9, 2020, at 6:52 AM, Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> Thanks a lot for all answers and information! Some I still have to read more accurate ana translate some special parts, because, as you can obviously read from my post, my English is horrible.
>>
>> I tend - and of course my wife does - to have a fixed installation. So extendable fiberglass masts or something like this is not the solution we are searching for.
>>
>> I will think about all suggestions, try some of them and report later this year, if there are any reporting worth solutions. We take over the boat during the next 2 weeks and after that, there is a lot of other marine stuff to do, before focusing on ham radio on board).
>>
>> Further answer are highly welcomed
>>
>>
>> 73, Peter
>>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: Kurt Pawlikowski [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. Juni 2020 03:16
>> An: Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]>;
>> [hidden email]
>> Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] K3 working on motorboats - possible
>>
>> Peter,
>>
>> In general, any vertical works lots better with more radials. As fresh water is a fairly poor conductor, the more the merrier!
>> Unfortunately, because most boats are wooden/fiberglass, what you can
>> add helps. I don't know if they have to be 1/4 wavelength (I've read
>> yes and some say at least 0.20 wavelength). For HF, this would be
>> some serious lengths for most boats! I expect you'd have to load them
>> similar to the vertical element, but I haven't read anything
>> regarding loading
>> radials: It's just a guess. I suppose one could attempt to replicate, to some extent, a solid ground plane with foil or some other conductor (maybe chicken wire?). It would seem a lot of work (and probably is!).
>> If you're insistent on a vertical, it's a narrow field of variability.
>> Some of the portable antenna's can make loaded dipoles or verticals, which would operate fairly well without a ground plane. Another option might be a magnetic loop (which doesn't care much about "ground" per se.
>> It is affected by near-by conductors, tunes very narrowly, and is big (compared to a mobile vertical). So, whatever you choose, it's all some sort of compromise.
>>
>> kurtt WB9FMC
>>
>>>> On 6/8/2020 3:47 PM, Peter Kaletsch wrote:
>>> Hello fellows;
>>>
>>> You are my last hope as I cannot imagine that I am the only one in the world who wants to try that.
>>>
>>> For many months I have been trying in vain to get tips on how to operate a K3 well on a small 13 meter motor yacht. I am talking about fresh water usage (Lake Garda in Italy), not salt water, and of a GFK built boat.
>>>
>>> A dipole is eliminated, it is not a sailing boat. I thought of using a Tarheel Antenna, but the manufacturer advised me against it.
>>>
>>> So normal, shortened mobile antennas, mounted on the device carrier, where also the antenna for marine radio is located, should point the way ...?
>>>
>>> But how do I get a reasonably effective earth? I read a lot of negative things about ground plates - fast growth, the hull has to be pierced.
>>>
>>> I have already considered laying radials from the antenna base below deck in the invisible area, but will this work...?
>>>
>>> I am very grateful for every tip and every help - also to
>>> [hidden email]
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance
>>>
>>> Peter - DL1MDZ
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> Peter Kaletsch GmbH | Fürstenrieder Straße 275 | 81377 München | Tel:
>>> +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 0 | Fax: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 99 | [hidden email] | Handelsregisternummer HRB 108093 | Amtsgericht Muenchen | Steuer-Nr: 143/170/40017 | Geschäftsführer: Peter Kaletsch | Sitz der Gesellschaft: München | Hinweis / reference:
>>> Die Inhalte dieser Nachricht dürfen nur für die beabsichtigten Zwecke verwendet werden. The content of this Message may only be used for the intended purposes.
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
>>> email
>>> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
>>> [hidden email]
>> ________________________________
>> Peter Kaletsch GmbH | Fürstenrieder Straße 275 | 81377 München | Tel:
>> +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 0 | Fax: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 99 | [hidden email] | Handelsregisternummer HRB 108093 | Amtsgericht Muenchen | Steuer-Nr: 143/170/40017 | Geschäftsführer: Peter Kaletsch | Sitz der Gesellschaft: München | Hinweis / reference:
>> Die Inhalte dieser Nachricht dürfen nur für die beabsichtigten Zwecke verwendet werden. The content of this Message may only be used for the intended purposes.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
>> email
>> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
>> [hidden email]
>
> ________________________________
> Peter Kaletsch GmbH | Fürstenrieder Straße 275 | 81377 München | Tel:
> +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 0 | Fax: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 99 | [hidden email] | Handelsregisternummer HRB 108093 | Amtsgericht Muenchen | Steuer-Nr: 143/170/40017 | Geschäftsführer: Peter Kaletsch | Sitz der Gesellschaft: München | Hinweis / reference:
> Die Inhalte dieser Nachricht dürfen nur für die beabsichtigten Zwecke verwendet werden. The content of this Message may only be used for the intended purposes.

dl1mdz

Re: K3 working on motorboats - possible

In reply to this post by gt-i

Hi Gernot!

You pointed the problem out! I have done really a lot of QRP work (DXCC, all continents) landside and of course I will start with low power on board.

Many thanks for your advice to the "Rothhammel". I did not know, that marine antennas are a theme there, but I will have a look into for sure!

Best regards

Peter

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. Juni 2020 22:21
An: Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] K3 working on motorboats - possible

Hello Peter,
I think it depends on your willingnes to sacrify the shape of your boat.
If you want to get heard anywhere then you either need a long vertical plus good ground as mentioned already, or a dipole as high above sea level as possible. The dipole may be sloped but either the feedpoint needs to be elevated or the ends of the wire. I have operated both configurations near fresh water with kind of satisfaction (~500km on
7/14 MHz are possible on 10Watts) , but not yet on a boat.

The Rothammel also mentions "Marineantennen" and discusses the grounding and antenna suggestions.

Seems like an interesting experiment,
hope you get on the air soon!
73 Gernot DF5RF

BTW, you can use www.deepl.com for a quick translation to German:

"Ich denke, es hängt von Ihrer Bereitschaft ab, die Form Ihres Bootes zu opfern. Wenn Sie irgendwo gehört werden wollen, dann brauchen Sie entweder eine lange Vertikale plus guten Boden, wie bereits erwähnt, oder einen Dipol so hoch über dem Meeresspiegel wie möglich. Der Dipol kann geneigt sein, aber entweder der Speisepunkt oder die Drahtenden müssen erhöht sein. Ich habe beide Konfigurationen in der Nähe von Süßwasser mit einer gewissen Befriedigung betrieben (~500km auf 7/14 MHz sind bei 10Watt möglich), aber noch nicht auf einem Boot.

Der Rothammel erwähnt auch "Marineantennen" und bespricht die Erdung und Antennenvorschläge.

Scheint ein interessantes Experiment zu sein, Ich hoffe, Sie gehen bald auf Sendung!

Übersetzt mit www.DeepL.com/Translator (kostenlose Version)"

Am 08.06.2020 um 22:47 schrieb Peter Kaletsch:

> Hello fellows;
>
> You are my last hope as I cannot imagine that I am the only one in the world who wants to try that.
>
> For many months I have been trying in vain to get tips on how to operate a K3 well on a small 13 meter motor yacht. I am talking about fresh water usage (Lake Garda in Italy), not salt water, and of a GFK built boat.
>
> A dipole is eliminated, it is not a sailing boat. I thought of using a Tarheel Antenna, but the manufacturer advised me against it.
>
> So normal, shortened mobile antennas, mounted on the device carrier, where also the antenna for marine radio is located, should point the way ...?
>
> But how do I get a reasonably effective earth? I read a lot of negative things about ground plates - fast growth, the hull has to be pierced.
>
> I have already considered laying radials from the antenna base below deck in the invisible area, but will this work...?
>
> I am very grateful for every tip and every help - also to
> [hidden email]
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Peter - DL1MDZ
>
>
> ________________________________
> Peter Kaletsch GmbH | Fürstenrieder Straße 275 | 81377 München | Tel:
> +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 0 | Fax: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 99 | [hidden email] | Handelsregisternummer HRB 108093 | Amtsgericht Muenchen | Steuer-Nr: 143/170/40017 | Geschäftsführer: Peter Kaletsch | Sitz der Gesellschaft: München | Hinweis / reference:
> Die Inhalte dieser Nachricht dürfen nur für die beabsichtigten Zwecke verwendet werden. The content of this Message may only be used for the intended purposes.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email]

Jim Brown-10

Re: K3 working on motorboats - possible

In reply to this post by gt-i

On 6/9/2020 1:21 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> anywhere then you either need a long vertical plus good ground as
> mentioned already

WRONG. An end-fed wire needs a COUNTERPOISE, not a connection to mother
earth. A counterpoise is a low resistance conductor that provides a
return for the current and the field produced by the "intentional" part
of the antenna, and the counterpoise IS a part of the antenna. Salt
water IS an effective counterpoise because it is a good conductor; fresh
water is NOT, because it is NOT a good conductor, so it burns
transmitter power.

Likewise, a ground rod is a lousy counterpoise, because the earth is a
big resistor, and can easily burn much more than half the transmitter's
power. Radials serve as both a counterpoise and a shield ("screen" in
British English) -- they shield the field from lossy earth AND serve as
a return for the current and the field.

73, Jim K9YC

______________________________________________________________
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