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K3S Noise reduction Test

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john@kk9a.com

K3S Noise reduction Test

But that is not what NK7Z is suggesting. He suggested a built in noise
canceller which would be awesome!

John KK9A

Don Wilhelm wrote
Tue Jun 20 19:51:45 EDT 2017

Dave,

The K3S has a receive antenna connection so you can do exactly that.
The low noise antenna is up to the operator to provide.
If you have the KRX3 option installed, diversity reception may also help.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/20/2017 6:21 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
> What would be really nice would be to have a separate antenna designed
> for noise reception, and the ability to phase shift it from the normal
> antenna, allowing for noise cancellation...

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briancom

Re: K3S Noise reduction Test

Had an ANC noise canceller like this. MFJ makes one too. Same idea.
Collins also had such a thing for their mobile way back when using a
separate whip on the back of the vehicle.

They work well but only for one signal source at a time. If you have
two noise sources located differently, you can cancel only one.

There was also the nastiness of blowing up the inputs of these units
when operating high power. Some way of isolating the circuitry or
protecting it from transmitted RF was needed. The desire for QSK may
make this a little difficult.

A conventional noise limiter would still be needed to handle the left
over sources.

73 de Brian/K3KO

On 6/21/2017 1:39 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> But that is not what NK7Z is suggesting. He suggested a built in noise
> canceller which would be awesome!
>
> John KK9A
>
> Don Wilhelm wrote
> Tue Jun 20 19:51:45 EDT 2017
>
> Dave,
>
> The K3S has a receive antenna connection so you can do exactly that.
> The low noise antenna is up to the operator to provide.
> If you have the KRX3 option installed, diversity reception may also help.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 6/20/2017 6:21 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
>> What would be really nice would be to have a separate antenna designed
>> for noise reception, and the ability to phase shift it from the normal
>> antenna, allowing for noise cancellation...
>
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NK7Z

Re: K3S Noise reduction Test

In reply to this post by john@kk9a.com

Thank you John. That is exactly what I was suggesting.

73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

On 06/20/2017 06:39 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

NK7Z

Re: K3S Noise reduction Test

In reply to this post by john@kk9a.com

Don,
Thanks for the info, but as John said, I was suggesting a noise
canceling setup... I was not clear enough, my error.

73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

On 06/20/2017 06:39 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

tomb18

Re: K3S Noise reduction Test

In reply to this post by john@kk9a.com

I think the ncc1 is under rated. Here is an example of what it can do. I was plagued by a neighbour with outdoor high intensity lights which he insisted on leaving on during the day.. It was either this or blasting his house with 2.4ghz noise whenever his lights were on during the day... It's not the best video but it shows what you can achieve... https://va2fsq.com/wp-content/uploads/2013-Jan-15-20-43-43.avi 73 Tom
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: Dave Cole <[hidden email]> Date: 2017-06-21 12:04 AM (GMT-05:00) To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test
Don,
Thanks for the info, but as John said, I was suggesting a noise
canceling setup... I was not clear enough, my error.

73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

On 06/20/2017 06:39 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

tomb18

Re: K3S Noise reduction Test

In reply to this post by john@kk9a.com

Just a note. This is with a small amplified vertical receive antenna, the ncc1 and all fed through the k3 Rx loop. It's wwv, and the whole thing is switched in at the end of the video. 25dBm reduction in the noise. It's also really useful for eliminating acting one signal on top of the other. For example Am broadcast dxing... I can get rid of a strong am broadcast on top of a weak one. Now if only this could be automated and built in to the radio...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: tomb18 <[hidden email]> Date: 2017-06-21 12:37 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Dave Cole <[hidden email]>, [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test
I think the ncc1 is under rated. Here is an example of what it can do. I was plagued by a neighbour with outdoor high intensity lights which he insisted on leaving on during the day.. It was either this or blasting his house with 2.4ghz noise whenever his lights were on during the day... It's not the best video but it shows what you can achieve... https://va2fsq.com/wp-content/uploads/2013-Jan-15-20-43-43.avi 73 Tom
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: Dave Cole <[hidden email]> Date: 2017-06-21 12:04 AM (GMT-05:00) To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test
Don,
Thanks for the info, but as John said, I was suggesting a noise
canceling setup... I was not clear enough, my error.

73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

On 06/20/2017 06:39 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

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k6dgw

Re: K3S Noise reduction Test

In reply to this post by NK7Z

My experience with noise cancellation, by no means exhaustive or even
quantitative, is that it is surprisingly effective, almost to the point
of "magic", provided the noise source is a single point. It was
essentially ineffective if there were multiple sources, or the source
was extended in space[e.g. a radiating power line].

Perhaps the best signal-to-noise-ratio-improver I've ever found I
learned as a teen working at a coastal marine station many years ago.
The Holy Frequency could be extraordinarily noisy at night... the OT had
me lay my cans on the deskand turn up the gain a little. Ioften use it
todayand it beats a noise limiter [I don't think they exist anymore],
noise blanker[good for impulse noise], DSP, and cancellation.

I don't really know how it works, I suspect it has something to do with
the broadband noise being more directive than the CW signalbecause if
I'm over the headphones, it's less effective than if they're a bit off
to the side. I've never tried it with SSB, might do that in a free
moment. But, it's pretty cheap. [:-)

I've never gotten much use out of my K3's NR/NB but to be fair, I also
haven't tried it very much.

73,

Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
Sparks NV USA
Washoe County DM09dn

On 6/20/2017 9:04 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
> Don,
> Thanks for the info, but as John said, I was suggesting a noise
> canceling setup... I was not clear enough, my error.
>
> 73s and thanks,
> Dave
> NK7Z
> http://www.nk7z.net

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Jim Brown-10

Re: K3S Noise reduction Test

In reply to this post by tomb18

Yes, the NCC-1 is a superb unit, especially for use on 160, 80, and 40M.
It's usefulness diminishes above 30M. I'm using one to phase a spaced
pair of VE3DO loops that are physically aimed at EU. Using the NCC-1, I
can shift the pattern +/- 20-30 degrees. The combined loops produce some
pretty deep (and narrow) nulls, so it's often possible to peak the
signal while nulling a single noise source.

VE3DO loops are rectangular receiving loops that are 40 ft long by 10 ft
high, with the lower horizontal segment about 2 ft off the ground. The
loops are optimized for 160M, but work well on 80M. They're spaced 5/8
wavelength on 160, which is about 350 ft. The spaced pair has
directivity similar to a full wavelength Beverage, but the vertical
pattern is broader for the loops, so the two antennas complement each
other for signals arriving at different vertical angles.

http://www.ok1rr.com/index.php/onair/8-qmgr

The great thing about the NCC-1 is that as the phase knob is rotated,
the phase difference is a nearly linear straight line, AND the amplitude
difference is quite small. On 160 and 80, the difference is less than
about 0.15 dB; it's a bit greater on 40M, and about 0.5 dB on 20M. That
flatness makes it FAR easier to tune than its lower cost alternatives.

As others have noted, noise cancellation works only for a single source
at a time.

73, Jim K9YC

On Tue,6/20/2017 9:45 PM, tomb18 wrote:

> I think the ncc1 is under rated. Here is an example of what it can do.
> Just a note. This is with a small amplified vertical receive antenna, the ncc1 and all fed through the k3 Rx loop. It's wwv, and the whole thing is switched in at the end of the video. 25dBm reduction in the noise. It's also really useful for eliminating acting one signal on top of the other. For example Am broadcast dxing... I can get rid of a strong am broadcast on top of a weak one. Now if only this could be automated and built in to the radio...

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stengrevics

Re: K3S Noise reduction Test

Jim,

Is there a similar unit that covers 50 MHz? Or, a way to modify the NCC-1/NCC-2?

73.

John
WA1EAZ

> On Jun 21, 2017, at 12:33 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Yes, the NCC-1 is a superb unit, especially for use on 160, 80, and 40M. It's usefulness diminishes above 30M. I'm using one to phase a spaced pair of VE3DO loops that are physically aimed at EU. Using the NCC-1, I can shift the pattern +/- 20-30 degrees. The combined loops produce some pretty deep (and narrow) nulls, so it's often possible to peak the signal while nulling a single noise source.
>
> VE3DO loops are rectangular receiving loops that are 40 ft long by 10 ft high, with the lower horizontal segment about 2 ft off the ground. The loops are optimized for 160M, but work well on 80M. They're spaced 5/8 wavelength on 160, which is about 350 ft. The spaced pair has directivity similar to a full wavelength Beverage, but the vertical pattern is broader for the loops, so the two antennas complement each other for signals arriving at different vertical angles.
>
> http://www.ok1rr.com/index.php/onair/8-qmgr
>
> The great thing about the NCC-1 is that as the phase knob is rotated, the phase difference is a nearly linear straight line, AND the amplitude difference is quite small. On 160 and 80, the difference is less than about 0.15 dB; it's a bit greater on 40M, and about 0.5 dB on 20M. That flatness makes it FAR easier to tune than its lower cost alternatives.
>
> As others have noted, noise cancellation works only for a single source at a time.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> On Tue,6/20/2017 9:45 PM, tomb18 wrote:
>
>> I think the ncc1 is under rated. Here is an example of what it can do.
>> Just a note. This is with a small amplified vertical receive antenna, the ncc1 and all fed through the k3 Rx loop. It's wwv, and the whole thing is switched in at the end of the video. 25dBm reduction in the noise. It's also really useful for eliminating acting one signal on top of the other. For example Am broadcast dxing... I can get rid of a strong am broadcast on top of a weak one. Now if only this could be automated and built in to the radio...
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Jim Brown-10

Re: K3S Noise reduction Test

On Wed,6/21/2017 9:38 AM, John Stengrevics wrote:
> Jim,
>
> Is there a similar unit that covers 50 MHz?

Not that I know of.

> Or, a way to modify the NCC-1/NCC-2?

No. It is far too complex a unit, and would have to be redesigned from
scratch.

73, Jim K9YC

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