Elecraft

K3S proper grounding?

Classic

List

Threaded

14 messages Options

ae4pb

K3S proper grounding?

On 40m my TV turns off and on by itself when I transmit. I'm thinking that
it's related to grounding because I've not figured that out yet. I have a
roof mounted mast that holds my dipole. The coax comes down through the
roof, routes through the attic down inside the wall to the station. I've
been told I need to ground the feedline BEFORE it enters the house but I'm
not sure how to get a ground correctly up to the roof. No matter how I run
the ground a lightning strike would likely ignite my house inside the attic
if I run it inside the house. I have a low pass filter installed just
before/after the Rig.

The plan I'm thinking of so far.

1. Run an 8 gauge dedicated power feeder from my main panel (on the
opposite side of the house) to the shack with a 20A breaker. The 8Ga is to
lower ground losses.

2. Install a ground rod outside my shack and run a heavy gauge to the
shack to bond with the dedicated power line ground.

3. Ground all gear in the shack to the dedicated power ground.

4. ?? maybe do a run of 14-2 romex with all three leads bonded together up
to the mast, install a mast antenna switch and ground it with the 14-2.

Thoughts /comments?

Running only 100w into a Buckmaster 7 Band OCF dipole at 35' per the
instructions. The dipole is broadside to 45 degrees for EU coverage.

Thanks in advance. I've read A LOT on grounding but haven't seen this
scenario covered.

On another note I appear to have an allergy to my key. I just can't bring
myself to get on the air with it. I need the practice to get my speed.

Jerry Moore

AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324

An Amatuer is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and
Patriotic.

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

dmb@lightstream.net

Re: K3S proper grounding?

Jerry,

I had this exact problem on 40m with a 42" Samsung LCD tv. I finally got
it working, but here's what I tried that ultimately proved useless:
-- Added a counterpoise on the floor of the shack for 40m
-- Added ferrite cores on all cables connected to the tv; power cord HDMI;
audio line out
-- I even opened up the tv housing and placed cores over interconnections
between boards.

Ultimately, I finally figured out that rf was getting into the
touch-sensitive switch matrix on the tv at the lower right corner. So, I
found cardboard box with dimensions such that if it sat on the table top
along with the tv with the opening facing upward, the top edge of the box
completely covered the switch matrix up to the point where the bezel met
the tv screen. Then I made a simple Faraday shield with some aluminum foil
completely coating the inside of the box, and then another sheet of
aluminum foil covering the outside of the box, but the two foil shields
did not connect together electrically. Then I ran a wire from only the
outside shield, to the underside of a screw head of one of the screws that
holds on the back cover of the tv. Then I measured where the infrared LED
sensor for the remote was located with respect the to edge of the tv
bezel, and punched a hole through the box such that with the box in
position to completely cover the area of the keypad, the remote would
still operate the tv. I also made sure that punching the hole did not
connect the two layers together.

Yes, it's really ugly and strange looking, but my wife can watch tv now
when I'm on 40m, and I don't have to keep resetting the settings on the tv
that got clobbered every time I operated.

Prior to 'The Box', as little as 20 watts would make the tv do all kinds
of interesting things. With the shield in place, I can run full power from
the KPA500 and it doesn't bother the tv in the least. This is with all of
the ferrite cores that I had previously installed, removed.

This may or may not be the source of the problem with your tv, but it's a
very easy thing to try as a first check.

Good luck with resolving your TVI issue.

73,

Dale, WA8SRA

> On 40m my TV turns off and on by itself when I transmit. I'm thinking that
> it's related to grounding because I've not figured that out yet. I have a
> roof mounted mast that holds my dipole. The coax comes down through the
> roof, routes through the attic down inside the wall to the station. I've
> been told I need to ground the feedline BEFORE it enters the house but I'm
> not sure how to get a ground correctly up to the roof. No matter how I run
> the ground a lightning strike would likely ignite my house inside the
> attic
> if I run it inside the house. I have a low pass filter installed just
> before/after the Rig.
>
>
>
> The plan I'm thinking of so far.
>
> 1. Run an 8 gauge dedicated power feeder from my main panel (on the
> opposite side of the house) to the shack with a 20A breaker. The 8Ga is to
> lower ground losses.
>
> 2. Install a ground rod outside my shack and run a heavy gauge to the
> shack to bond with the dedicated power line ground.
>
> 3. Ground all gear in the shack to the dedicated power ground.
>
> 4. ?? maybe do a run of 14-2 romex with all three leads bonded together
> up
> to the mast, install a mast antenna switch and ground it with the 14-2.
>
> Thoughts /comments?
>
>
>
> Running only 100w into a Buckmaster 7 Band OCF dipole at 35' per the
> instructions. The dipole is broadside to 45 degrees for EU coverage.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance. I've read A LOT on grounding but haven't seen this
> scenario covered.
>
>
>
>
>
> On another note I appear to have an allergy to my key. I just can't bring
> myself to get on the air with it. I need the practice to get my speed.
>
>
>
>
>
> Jerry Moore
>
> AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324
>
> An Amatuer is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and
> Patriotic.

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3S proper grounding?

In reply to this post by ae4pb

I would think it is more related to the susceptibility of the TV to RF
than to any grounding issues.
You could try ferrites on the TV power and all other cables.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/26/2015 1:41 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> On 40m my TV turns off and on by itself when I transmit. I'm thinking that
> it's related to grounding because I've not figured that out yet.

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Vic Rosenthal

Re: K3S proper grounding?

In reply to this post by ae4pb

The problem has nothing to do with grounding.

RF is getting into the house wiring. I suggest adding a choke balun at
the feedpoint of the antenna to reduce "RF in the shack" and wrapping
the power cord of the TV around a ferrite rod, toroid or bead for
several turns. Google K9YC's RFI tutorial for details.

OCF dipoles are very bad for RF in the shack due to the degree of unbalance.

Radio Shack used to sell little square ferrite toroids that split apart
so you can wrap wires around them without interference from plugs, etc.

73,
Vic, 4X6GP/K2VCO
Rehovot, Israel
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/

On 26 Sep 2015 20:41, [hidden email] wrote:

> On 40m my TV turns off and on by itself when I transmit. I'm thinking that
> it's related to grounding because I've not figured that out yet. I have a
> roof mounted mast that holds my dipole. The coax comes down through the
> roof, routes through the attic down inside the wall to the station. I've
> been told I need to ground the feedline BEFORE it enters the house but I'm
> not sure how to get a ground correctly up to the roof. No matter how I run
> the ground a lightning strike would likely ignite my house inside the attic
> if I run it inside the house. I have a low pass filter installed just
> before/after the Rig.
>
>
>
> The plan I'm thinking of so far.
>
> 1. Run an 8 gauge dedicated power feeder from my main panel (on the
> opposite side of the house) to the shack with a 20A breaker. The 8Ga is to
> lower ground losses.
>
> 2. Install a ground rod outside my shack and run a heavy gauge to the
> shack to bond with the dedicated power line ground.
>
> 3. Ground all gear in the shack to the dedicated power ground.
>
> 4. ?? maybe do a run of 14-2 romex with all three leads bonded together up
> to the mast, install a mast antenna switch and ground it with the 14-2.
>
> Thoughts /comments?
>
>
>
> Running only 100w into a Buckmaster 7 Band OCF dipole at 35' per the
> instructions. The dipole is broadside to 45 degrees for EU coverage.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance. I've read A LOT on grounding but haven't seen this
> scenario covered.
>
>
>
>
>
> On another note I appear to have an allergy to my key. I just can't bring
> myself to get on the air with it. I need the practice to get my speed.
>
>
>
>
>
> Jerry Moore
>
> AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324
>
> An Amatuer is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and
> Patriotic.

Phil Hystad-3

Re: K3S proper grounding?

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

I had the same problem and it occurred on 40 meters regularly as well. Low power (~80 to 100 watts) did not seem to bother the TV but it was a regular problem at power’s much over 100 watts.

My solution which seems to work flawlessly so far with max power of 600 watts is that I took a whole bunch of the clip on wrap around conductor ferrites and put it on the power cord. They run for about half the length of the 120 vac power cord to the TV set, about two dozen ferrites.

I had the same problem with the Bose table-top radio upstairs. Key down at >100 watts would invariably turn on the radio. But, the Bose table-top radio uses the power cord as a default FM antenna so wrapping in ferrites required another antenna solution. So, I created a makeshift FM antenna up on the roof and ran RG-6 cable to it where it connects with standard TV like RG6 cable connectors. This fixed that problem too.

73, phil, K7PEH

> On Sep 26, 2015, at 10:57 AM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I would think it is more related to the susceptibility of the TV to RF than to any grounding issues.
> You could try ferrites on the TV power and all other cables.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 9/26/2015 1:41 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> On 40m my TV turns off and on by itself when I transmit. I'm thinking that
>> it's related to grounding because I've not figured that out yet.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3S proper grounding?

In reply to this post by ae4pb

Your grounding plan sounds fine, *if* and only if you connect that
separate ground rod to the utility entrance ground rod using a #6 or #4
copper wire - that wire should be buried several inches and run outside
your dwelling foundation.
That connection is a NEC requirement and is necessary for safety. All
ground rods *must* be connected together unless they are more than 100
feet apart.

You cannot create an RF ground by connecting to a ground rod. It is
only for AC safety and a measure of lightning protection.

OCF antennas can be difficult to tame for RF in the shack. Use of a
very good quality common mode choke at the feedpoint (in addition to the
4:1 balun) may help.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/26/2015 1:41 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> The plan I'm thinking of so far.
>
> 1. Run an 8 gauge dedicated power feeder from my main panel (on the
> opposite side of the house) to the shack with a 20A breaker. The 8Ga is to
> lower ground losses.
>
> 2. Install a ground rod outside my shack and run a heavy gauge to the
> shack to bond with the dedicated power line ground.
>
> 3. Ground all gear in the shack to the dedicated power ground.
>
> 4. ?? maybe do a run of 14-2 romex with all three leads bonded together up
> to the mast, install a mast antenna switch and ground it with the 14-2.
>
>

Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: K3S proper grounding?

In reply to this post by ae4pb

Is a Direct TV / satellite receiver involved? I have experienced RF
getting into the Direct TV / satellite receiver causing it to change
channels, turn on and off, and reset. It is the fact you are radiating
RF which is the desired intention and this RF is getting into the
"plastic box" of the receiver. Plus many of these receivers use RF
Remote control as opposed to IR Remote control.

If it is just the TV that is turning on and off, I suggest putting
common mode chokes on the AC power cord at the TV and also on any other
inputs or outputs at the TV. This also could be an issue where the TV
Remote control is a RF Remote as opposed to a IR remote. I've found
these RF Remote receivers have basically no selectivity and any RF close
by will or can cause issues.

Your roof mounted mast should have a ground positioned as close as
practical. A driven rod is required. Use #6 copper from the roof
mast to the ground rod with suitable clamps. Straight runs preferred
with large radius bends if and where needed, otherwise no sharp bends.
Also some form of lightning protection is needed at the point or
before the feed line(s) enters the house. This can be attached to the
same ground system.

Now here's the kick in the pants..........this ground rod must be bonded
back to the AC Mains ground and this needs to occur outside of the house
even if it means running 50 ft or more of copper between the two
grounds. This is per NEC. I trenched mine in about 6" deep around the
foundation.

All of my feed lines and rotor control lines enter the house at an eve
vent, traverse across the attic and drop down through the ceiling to the
operating position. My lightning protection is at the point the feed
lines exit the tower adjacent to the house. I do not have any ground
from the station operating position to the outside world. I only use
3rd pin safety ground. Use dedicated jumpers between each piece of
equipment to the common power supply ground terminal. Do not daisy
chain pieces of equipment. I make my ground jumpers using #10 auto
primary wire with suitable crimp lugs attached on each end.

You may also need to place a common mode choke on the feed line near or
at the radio. This can be the coax jumper between the radio ANT and the
SWR/Pwr meter or input to the external ATU.

Running only 100 watts, I'd think the #8 ga power feed from the breaker
panel is way over-kill. I's spend my money on copper in other places.
Just run a dedicated 20 amp service. If you install a ground rod
outside of the shack, this rod must be bonded outside of the house back
to the main AC Mains driven ground as well.

Finding the problem and applying the proper solution is the challenge.
Throwing random solutions around likely cost money and won't produce
results. Just remember that grounding is a defined system and done
correctly will protect not only the structure but the equipment. Yet
grounding not properly done can be extremely dangerous.

73
Bob, K4TAX
K3S s/n 10,163

On 9/26/2015 12:41 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> On 40m my TV turns off and on by itself when I transmit. I'm thinking that
> it's related to grounding because I've not figured that out yet. I have a
> roof mounted mast that holds my dipole. The coax comes down through the
> roof, routes through the attic down inside the wall to the station. I've
> been told I need to ground the feedline BEFORE it enters the house but I'm
> not sure how to get a ground correctly up to the roof. No matter how I run
> the ground a lightning strike would likely ignite my house inside the attic
> if I run it inside the house. I have a low pass filter installed just
> before/after the Rig.
>
>
>
> The plan I'm thinking of so far.
>
> 1. Run an 8 gauge dedicated power feeder from my main panel (on the
> opposite side of the house) to the shack with a 20A breaker. The 8Ga is to
> lower ground losses.
>
> 2. Install a ground rod outside my shack and run a heavy gauge to the
> shack to bond with the dedicated power line ground.
>
> 3. Ground all gear in the shack to the dedicated power ground.
>
> 4. ?? maybe do a run of 14-2 romex with all three leads bonded together up
> to the mast, install a mast antenna switch and ground it with the 14-2.
>
> Thoughts /comments?
>
>
>
> Running only 100w into a Buckmaster 7 Band OCF dipole at 35' per the
> instructions. The dipole is broadside to 45 degrees for EU coverage.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance. I've read A LOT on grounding but haven't seen this
> scenario covered.

ae4pb

Re: K3S proper grounding?

In reply to this post by dmb@lightstream.net

Wow, good info ty. I'm not sure why it's a problem now. My prior rig wasn't
nearly as nice as the K3S and the XYL never complained about me
transmitting.
I'll figure it out. I guess I'll end up taking my Samsung TV apart.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2015 11:11 AM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S proper grounding?

Jerry,

I had this exact problem on 40m with a 42" Samsung LCD tv. I finally got it
working, but here's what I tried that ultimately proved useless:
-- Added a counterpoise on the floor of the shack for 40m
-- Added ferrite cores on all cables connected to the tv; power cord HDMI;
audio line out
-- I even opened up the tv housing and placed cores over interconnections
between boards.

Ultimately, I finally figured out that rf was getting into the
touch-sensitive switch matrix on the tv at the lower right corner. So, I
found cardboard box with dimensions such that if it sat on the table top
along with the tv with the opening facing upward, the top edge of the box
completely covered the switch matrix up to the point where the bezel met the
tv screen. Then I made a simple Faraday shield with some aluminum foil
completely coating the inside of the box, and then another sheet of aluminum
foil covering the outside of the box, but the two foil shields did not
connect together electrically. Then I ran a wire from only the outside
shield, to the underside of a screw head of one of the screws that holds on
the back cover of the tv. Then I measured where the infrared LED sensor for
the remote was located with respect the to edge of the tv bezel, and punched
a hole through the box such that with the box in position to completely
cover the area of the keypad, the remote would still operate the tv. I also
made sure that punching the hole did not connect the two layers together.

Yes, it's really ugly and strange looking, but my wife can watch tv now when
I'm on 40m, and I don't have to keep resetting the settings on the tv that
got clobbered every time I operated.

Prior to 'The Box', as little as 20 watts would make the tv do all kinds of
interesting things. With the shield in place, I can run full power from the
KPA500 and it doesn't bother the tv in the least. This is with all of the
ferrite cores that I had previously installed, removed.

This may or may not be the source of the problem with your tv, but it's a
very easy thing to try as a first check.

Good luck with resolving your TVI issue.

73,

Dale, WA8SRA

> On 40m my TV turns off and on by itself when I transmit. I'm thinking
> that it's related to grounding because I've not figured that out yet.
> I have a roof mounted mast that holds my dipole. The coax comes down
> through the roof, routes through the attic down inside the wall to the
> station. I've been told I need to ground the feedline BEFORE it enters
> the house but I'm not sure how to get a ground correctly up to the
> roof. No matter how I run the ground a lightning strike would likely
> ignite my house inside the attic if I run it inside the house. I have
> a low pass filter installed just before/after the Rig.
>
>
>
> The plan I'm thinking of so far.
>
> 1. Run an 8 gauge dedicated power feeder from my main panel (on the
> opposite side of the house) to the shack with a 20A breaker. The 8Ga
> is to lower ground losses.
>
> 2. Install a ground rod outside my shack and run a heavy gauge to the
> shack to bond with the dedicated power line ground.
>
> 3. Ground all gear in the shack to the dedicated power ground.
>
> 4. ?? maybe do a run of 14-2 romex with all three leads bonded together
> up
> to the mast, install a mast antenna switch and ground it with the 14-2.
>
> Thoughts /comments?
>
>
>
> Running only 100w into a Buckmaster 7 Band OCF dipole at 35' per the
> instructions. The dipole is broadside to 45 degrees for EU coverage.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance. I've read A LOT on grounding but haven't seen this
> scenario covered.
>
>
>
>
>
> On another note I appear to have an allergy to my key. I just can't
> bring myself to get on the air with it. I need the practice to get my

speed.

>
>
>
>
>
> Jerry Moore
>
> AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324
>
> An Amatuer is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced,
> and Patriotic.

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
delivered to [hidden email]

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Jim Brown-10

Re: K3S proper grounding?

In reply to this post by ae4pb

On Sat,9/26/2015 10:41 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Thoughts /comments?

You're kinda out there in thinking about this. First, study
k9yc.com/RFI-Ham.pdf and http://k9yc.com/GroundingAndAudio.pdf

One of the most susceptible consumer circuits are those used for
touch-sensitive control of TVs, lamps, etc. They are, by their nature,
very high impedance and unshielded. My neighbor, W4UAT, gave me a
Samsung monitor with that problem. The only fix for it is the "bucket
treatment." ******

***** Bucket treatment: Find a big bucket large enough to hold the
defective device, fill the bucket with water, put the device in twice,
take it out once.

73, Jim K9YC

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Fred Townsend-2

Re: K3S proper grounding?

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Gerry there is NO one size fits all grounding solution. As Don suggests you
are really dealing with four grounding systems. Your RF or rig ground, a
lightning ground, your NEC or house power ground (neutral), and finally the
safety ground (green wire) ground which is really part of the NEC ground.
Often the requirements of one system will be at odds with other grounding
requirements. For instance you generally want a high impedance for RFI
issues and a very low impedance for lightning grounds. One system defeats
the other so they really need to be separate systems.
Your NEC and lightning grounds have very serious safety issues so running
your proposed wiring changes by your local power company can often be very
helpful. Most power companies have an expert on such issues although the
existence of such a person is often a closely held secret.
73
Fred, AE6QL

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2015 12:08 PM
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S proper grounding?

Your grounding plan sounds fine, *if* and only if you connect that separate
ground rod to the utility entrance ground rod using a #6 or #4 copper wire -
that wire should be buried several inches and run outside your dwelling
foundation.
That connection is a NEC requirement and is necessary for safety. All ground
rods *must* be connected together unless they are more than 100 feet apart.

You cannot create an RF ground by connecting to a ground rod. It is only
for AC safety and a measure of lightning protection.

OCF antennas can be difficult to tame for RF in the shack. Use of a very
good quality common mode choke at the feedpoint (in addition to the
4:1 balun) may help.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/26/2015 1:41 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> The plan I'm thinking of so far.
>
> 1. Run an 8 gauge dedicated power feeder from my main panel (on the
> opposite side of the house) to the shack with a 20A breaker. The 8Ga
> is to lower ground losses.
>
> 2. Install a ground rod outside my shack and run a heavy gauge to the
> shack to bond with the dedicated power line ground.
>
> 3. Ground all gear in the shack to the dedicated power ground.
>
> 4. ?? maybe do a run of 14-2 romex with all three leads bonded together

up
> to the mast, install a mast antenna switch and ground it with the 14-2.
>
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
delivered to [hidden email]

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: K3S proper grounding?

I agree with Fred in that there is no one system or method that "fits
all". In general I view station grounding approaches as 4 different
systems, all which should be implemented.

(a) All driven grounds must be bonded to each other an to the AC Mains
ground and this should occur outside of the structure or house. I find
no exception to this practice unless a tower is 200 ft or more from the
structure at which point a ground system should be located at the base
of the tower.

(b) Third pin green wire or safety ground for equipment must always be
in place and not "cheated" with an adapter.

(c) All lightning protection should occur before any feed line or rotor
control enters the building. Its ground attachment should be part of
the driven ground and bonding system. Towers should have a ground from
top to bottom and not relay solely on the structure alone. Don't forget
to bond the rotating mast out the top of the tower to the tower itself.

(d) Certain type of antennas do require a specific ground system which
I refer as RF Ground. A few driven ground rods do not make a RF
Ground. Those being, but not solely inclusive, verticals, slopers, end
fed Zepps, long wires and such as examples.

As to running a ground from the operating position to the outside ground
system, I've never found this necessary with proper antenna
installation. In many cases, the length of the ground conductor becomes
or acts as an antenna system and actual picks up RF from the
transmitting antenna thus placing the station above RF ground. {Opinions
will vary on this point.} I view if one has RF on the equipment, don't
run it to ground. Change the antenna and / or feed system to get the RF
to the antenna where it will do some good and thus not just warm the
earth worms.

73
Bob, K4TAX
K3S s/n 10,163

On 9/27/2015 3:20 PM, Fred Townsend wrote:

> erry there is NO one size fits all grounding solution. As Don suggests you
> are really dealing with four grounding systems. Your RF or rig ground, a
> lightning ground, your NEC or house power ground (neutral), and finally the
> safety ground (green wire) ground which is really part of the NEC ground.
> Often the requirements of one system will be at odds with other grounding
> requirements. For instance you generally want a high impedance for RFI
> issues and a very low impedance for lightning grounds. One system defeats
> the other so they really need to be separate systems.
> Your NEC and lightning grounds have very serious safety issues so running
> your proposed wiring changes by your local power company can often be very
> helpful. Most power companies have an expert on such issues although the
> existence of such a person is often a closely held secret.
> 73
> Fred, AE6QL

Jim Brown-10

Re: K3S proper grounding?

In reply to this post by Fred Townsend-2

> Often the requirements of one system will be at odds with other grounding
> requirements. For instance you generally want a high impedance for RFI
> issues and a very low impedance for lightning grounds. One system defeats
> the other so they really need to be separate systems.

NO, NO, NO, NO!

ALL grounds in any premises MUST be bonded together. To separate them is
both ILLEGAL and DANGEROUS.

> Your NEC and lightning grounds have very serious safety issues so running
> your proposed wiring changes by your local power company can often be very
> helpful.

Better -- there are two tutorials about power and grounding on my website.

73, Jim K9YC

http://k9yc.com/SurgeXPowerGround.pdf is written for sound and video
professionals. I got paid pretty good to write it, and also to teach it
at industry conventions.

http://k9yc.com/GroundingAndAudio.pdf is written specifically for hams.

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Jim Brown-10

Re: K3S proper grounding?

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

On Sun,9/27/2015 2:32 PM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX wrote:

> I agree with Fred in that there is no one system or method that "fits
> all". In general I view station grounding approaches as 4 different
> systems, all which should be implemented.
>
> (a) All driven grounds must be bonded to each other an to the AC
> Mains ground and this should occur outside of the structure or house.
> I find no exception to this practice unless a tower is 200 ft or more
> from the structure at which point a ground system should be located at
> the base of the tower.
>
> (b) Third pin green wire or safety ground for equipment must always
> be in place and not "cheated" with an adapter.
>
> (c) All lightning protection should occur before any feed line or
> rotor control enters the building. Its ground attachment should be
> part of the driven ground and bonding system. Towers should have a
> ground from top to bottom and not relay solely on the structure
> alone. Don't forget to bond the rotating mast out the top of the
> tower to the tower itself.

Yes, and to clarify, ALL of those grounded points MUST be bonded together.

> (d) Certain type of antennas do require a specific ground system
> which I refer as RF Ground. A few driven ground rods do not make a
> RF Ground. Those being, but not solely inclusive, verticals,
> slopers, end fed Zepps, long wires and such as examples.

Another clarification. What you're calling a ground system for an
antenna is NOT a ground system at all. Rather, a radial system functions
two ways -- it acts as a low loss return for antenna current and and as
a return for the fields produced by the antenna. In other words, a
radial field SHIELDS the antenna and its fields from lossy earth so that
power is not wasted in the soil under the antenna. In the absence of a
radial system, we often use a COUNTERPOISE -- a wire connected to the
return side of the coax (or the antenna tuner) to act as the return for
current. The primary difference is that the counterpoise is simply
another radiating part of the antenna, but it does not provide the
shielding function.

Yes, broadcast radial systems are usually buried, but the skin depth of
soil usually extends FAR below the topsoil on the AM broadcast band and
on 160M, so the radial system is still providing the low loss return and
shield. Another benefit of radial systems is that they provide
capacitive coupling to a wide area around an antenna, which improves the
path to ground for lightning.

73, Jim K9YC

73, Jim K9YC
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Phil Kane-2

Re: K3S proper grounding?

In reply to this post by Fred Townsend-2

On 9/27/2015 1:20 PM, Fred Townsend wrote:

> Most power companies have an expert on such issues although the
> existence of such a person is often a closely held secret.

One of the members of our consulting engineering firm (Tom Croda,
KA6KBI) was THE national expert on communication site power and
grounding. When he passed away a while back I could only hope that I
learned something "at his feet". I do know that the local Red Lobster
restaurant took a big financial hit when he passed away - it was the
site of many evening-long discussions on our clients' problems and the
oddities that he found since his last trip through here.

RIP. Big Man.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]