K3s in WPX M/S - WOW!

[K5WA]

I finally had a chance to put both of my K3s on really good antennas (2 el
40@ 140', 5 el 20 @ 130', 5 el 15 @ 120, 5 el 10 @ 110', 3 el 80 (delta
loops) @ 110', 140' shunt fed on 160M, 600' beverage pointed NE).  Our main
goal was to find out how the K3s interacted and whether I need to put in the
overload mod on the KXV3.  We ended up with 2002 contacts and 733
multipliers (2.8M points) even though I got sick in mid-contest and had to
take 12 hours off.  There were only two of us operating, so that was a
severe blow to our score.  Anyway, the K3s both had I.C.E. multiband band
pass filters and we were able to operate without bothering the other op.  In
most cases, we never knew the other op was on except when we were at a
second harmonic.  I actually only heard it when we were on ~7020 and ~14040.
These 2 antennas were 10 feet apart and both rigs were at 1 KW.  Even then,
we were able to operate within 10 KHz of the second harmonic.  I was amazed.
 
Additionally, from our Texas location, we were routinely able to hear the
VERY weak DX station right next to (or under) a loud East Coast station.  I
never thought I'd be so happy with a 150 Hz filter bandwidth.  Honestly, the
100 Hz and 50 Hz bandwidths were useless though as the signal level dropped
significantly.  It seemed much better a few firmware versions ago, but 150
Hz worked fine for us...I was just getting "greedy" by trying to use the 100
and 50 Hz BW.
 
The other thing I proved to myself was that I need to put the KXV3 overload
mod on my S/N 234.  No problem on S/N 752, but #234 indicated a HI PA TEMP
when we transmitted on the 160 tower and used our beverage antenna which was
only 100' away from the tower.  The PA TEMP was not high, but apparently the
overload made it appear that way.  I believe I remember that the rig dropped
itself down to 5 watts when this occurred.  I don't want to analyze the
failure, I'm just going to install the mod kit (which I've already gotten).
This test was simply to make sure I needed to do the mod before I opened
things up.  ;-)
 
We had 2 amplifiers fail, some computer glitches and the KRC2 wouldn't drive
the 6 pack switching arrangement (could be bad wiring on my part or low
voltage), but the K3s seemed bulletproof and felt VERY solid throughout the
contest.  I just keep getting happier and happier with my K3s every time I
put them to a new test.   Now for Field Day....  How many insects can a K3
handle before the fan speed goes into overdrive?  ;-)
 
Bob K5WA
K3 #234 and #752
K2 #4687
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[Vic K2VCO]

Bob Evans wrote:
>   I
> never thought I'd be so happy with a 150 Hz filter bandwidth.  Honestly, the
> 100 Hz and 50 Hz bandwidths were useless though as the signal level dropped
> significantly.  It seemed much better a few firmware versions ago, but 150
> Hz worked fine for us...I was just getting "greedy" by trying to use the 100
> and 50 Hz BW.

I have just found out that there is a bug that causes a gain reduction
just for these two bandwidths if they are set for FIR filters and not IIR.

You can fix it now by switching IIR ON, and when Elecraft fixes the bug
you can choose either IIR or FIR for these filters as you prefer.

To switch between IIR and FIR, tap '7' on the keypad when you're in any
filter setup menu entry (e.g., CONFIG:FLx BW). You want it to say IIR ON.
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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[Ken Wagner K3IU]

Hi Bob:

Thanks for the report!

Re: your comment regarding the 50 and 100HZ bandwidth. I am surprised to
hear what you report. I have the 200Hz filter in FL5. I just put the
Elecraft XG-1 on ANT1 and tuned to the 7040 freq. With the bandwidth set
to NORM (400 Hz) I show a S9 signal and an audio level (dbV Alternate
display) of 31.7. When I narrow the bandwidth to 50 Hz, signal strength
stays the same at S9 and the audio level stays the same. I do have 8 dB
of gain set into FL5 where the 200 Hz filter lives. Without that
additional gain, the S meter drops to S7 and the audio level drops to
30.5 dB when that filter switches in. I found it very usable at the 50 -
100 Hz bandwidths.

73,
Ken K3IU
K3 #202
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bob Evans wrote:

> I finally had a chance to put both of my K3s on really good antennas (2 el
> 40@ 140', 5 el 20 @ 130', 5 el 15 @ 120, 5 el 10 @ 110', 3 el 80 (delta
> loops) @ 110', 140' shunt fed on 160M, 600' beverage pointed NE).  Our main
> goal was to find out how the K3s interacted and whether I need to put in the
> overload mod on the KXV3.  We ended up with 2002 contacts and 733
> multipliers (2.8M points) even though I got sick in mid-contest and had to
> take 12 hours off.  There were only two of us operating, so that was a
> severe blow to our score.  Anyway, the K3s both had I.C.E. multiband band
> pass filters and we were able to operate without bothering the other op.  In
> most cases, we never knew the other op was on except when we were at a
> second harmonic.  I actually only heard it when we were on ~7020 and ~14040.
> These 2 antennas were 10 feet apart and both rigs were at 1 KW.  Even then,
> we were able to operate within 10 KHz of the second harmonic.  I was amazed.
>  
> Additionally, from our Texas location, we were routinely able to hear the
> VERY weak DX station right next to (or under) a loud East Coast station.  I
> never thought I'd be so happy with a 150 Hz filter bandwidth.  Honestly, the
> 100 Hz and 50 Hz bandwidths were useless though as the signal level dropped
> significantly.  It seemed much better a few firmware versions ago, but 150
> Hz worked fine for us...I was just getting "greedy" by trying to use the 100
> and 50 Hz BW.
>  
> The other thing I proved to myself was that I need to put the KXV3 overload
> mod on my S/N 234.  No problem on S/N 752, but #234 indicated a HI PA TEMP
> when we transmitted on the 160 tower and used our beverage antenna which was
> only 100' away from the tower.  The PA TEMP was not high, but apparently the
> overload made it appear that way.  I believe I remember that the rig dropped
> itself down to 5 watts when this occurred.  I don't want to analyze the
> failure, I'm just going to install the mod kit (which I've already gotten).
> This test was simply to make sure I needed to do the mod before I opened
> things up.  ;-)
>  
> We had 2 amplifiers fail, some computer glitches and the KRC2 wouldn't drive
> the 6 pack switching arrangement (could be bad wiring on my part or low
> voltage), but the K3s seemed bulletproof and felt VERY solid throughout the
> contest.  I just keep getting happier and happier with my K3s every time I
> put them to a new test.   Now for Field Day....  How many insects can a K3
> handle before the fan speed goes into overdrive?  ;-)
>  
> Bob K5WA
> K3 #234 and #752
> K2 #4687
> _______________________________________________
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>  

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[K5WA]

Ken,

I just got a note about this from Vic, K2VCO, which I hope he posts to the
reflector.  This is, apparently, a known bug in the firmware which will be
fixed in the future.  For the time being, the workaround is to set IIR to ON
in the FL:x menu.  After Vic mentioned that, I sort of remember it crossing
the reflector, but had dropped to the bottom of my priority bucket.  ;-)

Thanks for the note and I'll do the workaround until the firmware fix
arrives.  I really don't use anything less than 150 Hz very often, but it
will be nice to have it available when I'm playing around.

73,
Bob K5WA

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken K3IU [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 11:51 AM
To: Bob Evans
Cc: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3s in WPX M/S - WOW!

Hi Bob:

Thanks for the report!

Re: your comment regarding the 50 and 100HZ bandwidth. I am surprised to
hear what you report. I have the 200Hz filter in FL5. I just put the
Elecraft XG-1 on ANT1 and tuned to the 7040 freq. With the bandwidth set to
NORM (400 Hz) I show a S9 signal and an audio level (dbV Alternate
display) of 31.7. When I narrow the bandwidth to 50 Hz, signal strength
stays the same at S9 and the audio level stays the same. I do have 8 dB of
gain set into FL5 where the 200 Hz filter lives. Without that additional
gain, the S meter drops to S7 and the audio level drops to
30.5 dB when that filter switches in. I found it very usable at the 50 - 100
Hz bandwidths.

73,
Ken K3IU
K3 #202
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bob Evans wrote:

> I finally had a chance to put both of my K3s on really good antennas
> (2 el 40@ 140', 5 el 20 @ 130', 5 el 15 @ 120, 5 el 10 @ 110', 3 el 80
> (delta
> loops) @ 110', 140' shunt fed on 160M, 600' beverage pointed NE).  Our
> main goal was to find out how the K3s interacted and whether I need to
> put in the overload mod on the KXV3.  We ended up with 2002 contacts
> and 733 multipliers (2.8M points) even though I got sick in
> mid-contest and had to take 12 hours off.  There were only two of us
> operating, so that was a severe blow to our score.  Anyway, the K3s
> both had I.C.E. multiband band pass filters and we were able to
> operate without bothering the other op.  In most cases, we never knew
> the other op was on except when we were at a second harmonic.  I actually

only heard it when we were on ~7020 and ~14040.
> These 2 antennas were 10 feet apart and both rigs were at 1 KW.  Even
> then, we were able to operate within 10 KHz of the second harmonic.  I was
amazed.

>  
> Additionally, from our Texas location, we were routinely able to hear
> the VERY weak DX station right next to (or under) a loud East Coast
> station.  I never thought I'd be so happy with a 150 Hz filter
> bandwidth.  Honestly, the 100 Hz and 50 Hz bandwidths were useless
> though as the signal level dropped significantly.  It seemed much
> better a few firmware versions ago, but 150 Hz worked fine for us...I
> was just getting "greedy" by trying to use the 100 and 50 Hz BW.
>  
> The other thing I proved to myself was that I need to put the KXV3
> overload mod on my S/N 234.  No problem on S/N 752, but #234 indicated
> a HI PA TEMP when we transmitted on the 160 tower and used our
> beverage antenna which was only 100' away from the tower.  The PA TEMP
> was not high, but apparently the overload made it appear that way.  I
> believe I remember that the rig dropped itself down to 5 watts when
> this occurred.  I don't want to analyze the failure, I'm just going to

install the mod kit (which I've already gotten).
> This test was simply to make sure I needed to do the mod before I
> opened things up.  ;-)
>  
> We had 2 amplifiers fail, some computer glitches and the KRC2 wouldn't
> drive the 6 pack switching arrangement (could be bad wiring on my part
> or low voltage), but the K3s seemed bulletproof and felt VERY solid
> throughout the contest.  I just keep getting happier and happier with my
K3s every time I

> put them to a new test.   Now for Field Day....  How many insects can a K3
> handle before the fan speed goes into overdrive?  ;-)
>  
> Bob K5WA
> K3 #234 and #752
> K2 #4687
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>  http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft   
>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>
>  

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[n6wg]

Hi Vic
You didn't say, but I assume this is under the
most recent firmware download?
73, Bob N6WG

----- Original Message -----
From: "Vic K2VCO" <[hidden email]>
To: "Bob Evans" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3s in WPX M/S - WOW!


> Bob Evans wrote:
> >   I
> > never thought I'd be so happy with a 150 Hz filter bandwidth.
Honestly, the
> > 100 Hz and 50 Hz bandwidths were useless though as the signal
level dropped
> > significantly.  It seemed much better a few firmware versions ago,
but 150
> > Hz worked fine for us...I was just getting "greedy" by trying to
use the 100
> > and 50 Hz BW.
>
> I have just found out that there is a bug that causes a gain
reduction
> just for these two bandwidths if they are set for FIR filters and
not IIR.
>
> You can fix it now by switching IIR ON, and when Elecraft fixes the
bug
> you can choose either IIR or FIR for these filters as you prefer.
>
> To switch between IIR and FIR, tap '7' on the keypad when you're in
any
> filter setup menu entry (e.g., CONFIG:FLx BW). You want it to say
IIR ON.

> --
> 73,
> Vic, K2VCO
> Fresno CA
> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>  http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

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[Vic K2VCO]

Bob Evans wrote:
>   I
> never thought I'd be so happy with a 150 Hz filter bandwidth.  Honestly, the
> 100 Hz and 50 Hz bandwidths were useless though as the signal level dropped
> significantly.  It seemed much better a few firmware versions ago, but 150
> Hz worked fine for us...I was just getting "greedy" by trying to use the 100
> and 50 Hz BW.

I have just found out that there is a bug that causes a gain reduction
just for these two bandwidths if they are set for FIR filters and not IIR.

You can fix it now by switching IIR ON, and when Elecraft fixes the bug
you can choose either IIR or FIR for these filters as you prefer.

To switch between IIR and FIR, tap '7' on the keypad when you're in any
filter setup menu entry (e.g., CONFIG:FLx BW). You want it to say IIR ON.
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco

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[Vic K2VCO]

Yes, it's even in the present beta version -- until Lyle fixes it!

Bob Tellefsen wrote:

> Hi Vic
> You didn't say, but I assume this is under the
> most recent firmware download?
> 73, Bob N6WG
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Vic K2VCO" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Bob Evans" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 9:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3s in WPX M/S - WOW!
>
>
>> Bob Evans wrote:
>>>   I
>>> never thought I'd be so happy with a 150 Hz filter bandwidth.
> Honestly, the
>>> 100 Hz and 50 Hz bandwidths were useless though as the signal
> level dropped
>>> significantly.  It seemed much better a few firmware versions ago,
> but 150
>>> Hz worked fine for us...I was just getting "greedy" by trying to
> use the 100
>>> and 50 Hz BW.
>> I have just found out that there is a bug that causes a gain
> reduction
>> just for these two bandwidths if they are set for FIR filters and
> not IIR.
>> You can fix it now by switching IIR ON, and when Elecraft fixes the
> bug
>> you can choose either IIR or FIR for these filters as you prefer.
>>
>> To switch between IIR and FIR, tap '7' on the keypad when you're in
> any
>> filter setup menu entry (e.g., CONFIG:FLx BW). You want it to say
> IIR ON.
>> --
>> 73,
>> Vic, K2VCO
>> Fresno CA
>> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco

--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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[N4LQ-2]

Confused.....What is FIR vs. IIR? Can't find it in the manual. When you say
"just these two bandwidths"...I thought the FLxBW settings were for the
crystal filters, not the DSP so how do you change this setting for 50hz when
it's not even a filter in the menu? Since I have the 200hz filter in slot 4,
do I change it to IIR on?
Steve Ellington
[hidden email]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vic Rosenthal" <[hidden email]>
To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 2:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3s in WPX M/S - WOW!

> Bob Evans wrote:
>>   I
>> never thought I'd be so happy with a 150 Hz filter bandwidth.  Honestly,
>> the
>> 100 Hz and 50 Hz bandwidths were useless though as the signal level
>> dropped
>> significantly.  It seemed much better a few firmware versions ago, but
>> 150
>> Hz worked fine for us...I was just getting "greedy" by trying to use the
>> 100
>> and 50 Hz BW.
>
> I have just found out that there is a bug that causes a gain reduction
> just for these two bandwidths if they are set for FIR filters and not IIR.
>
> You can fix it now by switching IIR ON, and when Elecraft fixes the bug
> you can choose either IIR or FIR for these filters as you prefer.
>
> To switch between IIR and FIR, tap '7' on the keypad when you're in any
> filter setup menu entry (e.g., CONFIG:FLx BW). You want it to say IIR ON.
> --
> 73,
> Vic, K2VCO
> Fresno CA
> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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[Vic K2VCO]

n4lq wrote:
> Confused.....What is FIR vs. IIR? Can't find it in the manual.

It's not in the manual. They are two different types of DSP filters. I
think FIR has slightly less ringing, but IIR has...something else.
Anyway, some people may prefer the sound of one to the other.

> When you
> say "just these two bandwidths"...I thought the FLxBW settings were for
> the crystal filters, not the DSP so how do you change this setting for
> 50hz when it's not even a filter in the menu?

This wasn't supposed to be a permanent user interface, I think. Anyway
this parameter only relates to the DSP, not to the crystal filter.

> Since I have the 200hz
> filter in slot 4, do I change it to IIR on?

It doesn't matter which filter you have selected. Just go to the filter
bandwidth parameter and hit 7 until you see IIR ON.
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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[David Woolley (E.L)]

Vic K2VCO wrote:
>
> It's not in the manual. They are two different types of DSP filters. I
> think FIR has slightly less ringing, but IIR has...something else.
> Anyway, some people may prefer the sound of one to the other.

FIR means finite impulse response and IIR means infinite impulse
response.  Impulse response is how the output responds to a sudden
change in input.  Ringing is an impulse response.  FIR filters have an
output that only depends on the last n samples, so ringing cannot last
any longer than that.  IIR filters have feedback and, give or take
rounding errors and getting lost in the noise, the effect of an input
change lasts for ever, although it will normally get vanishingly small.
  If IIR filters ring, they will ring for ever, like analogue filters.

FIR filters can also have a frequency independent group delay, which is
good for digital modes.

The disadvantage of FIR filters is that you need much more computing
power to create an equally sharp filter, as you have to add
contributions from the many more previous sample times.

A simple IIR filter (although one that doesn't ring) would be an
exponential average, where you combine a fixed proportion of the
previous output with (1 - that proportion) times the current input.

A simple FIR filter would be a rolling average, where you average the
last n samples.  Note that this requires n calculations, whereas the
exponential average only requires a couple.


--
David Woolley
"The Elecraft list is a forum for the discussion of topics related to
Elecraft products and more general topics related ham radio"
List Guidelines <http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm>
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[dave.wilburn]

Depending on the different bw settings it is off or on.  Additionally
it toggles if you hit it one too many times.  Could we get a list of
when it should be on vs. off?  Is it safe to assume that if you are at
a bw smaller than a xtal filter, it should be on?


Dave Wilburn
K4DGW
K2/100 - S/N 5982
K3/100 - S/N 766



Vic K2VCO wrote:

> Bob Evans wrote:
>>   I
>> never thought I'd be so happy with a 150 Hz filter bandwidth.  
>> Honestly, the
>> 100 Hz and 50 Hz bandwidths were useless though as the signal level
>> dropped
>> significantly.  It seemed much better a few firmware versions ago, but
>> 150
>> Hz worked fine for us...I was just getting "greedy" by trying to use
>> the 100
>> and 50 Hz BW.
>
> I have just found out that there is a bug that causes a gain reduction
> just for these two bandwidths if they are set for FIR filters and not IIR.
>
> You can fix it now by switching IIR ON, and when Elecraft fixes the bug
> you can choose either IIR or FIR for these filters as you prefer.
>
> To switch between IIR and FIR, tap '7' on the keypad when you're in any
> filter setup menu entry (e.g., CONFIG:FLx BW). You want it to say IIR ON.

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[KK7P]

> Depending on the different bw settings it is off or on.  Additionally it
> toggles if you hit it one too many times.  Could we get a list of when
> it should be on vs. off?  Is it safe to assume that if you are at a bw
> smaller than a xtal filter, it should be on?

I'm not sure I understand the question, but I'll attempt an answer.

In any mode where a bandwidth less than 150 Hz is available, the DSP
will use either FIR filters or IIR filters.  If you set IIR ON by
tapping "7" in one of the CONDFIG:FLx menus so that "IIR ON" flashes
briefly in the display, then you have globally enabled IIR filtering for
these narrow bandwidths, regardless of mode or crystal (roofing) filter
in use.  If instead it flashes "IIR OFF" then you are using FIR filters
whenever the bandwidth is less than 150 Hz.

When in the CONFIG" FLx menus, the "7" key is a toggle.  It doesn't
matter which crystal filter is indicated in the menu when you tap "7".
The setting applies to *all* filters in *all* modes which allow a
bandwidth of less than 150 Hz.

73,

Lyle KK7P

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[Vic K2VCO]

It is not per-filter. It is a single setting which can be changed by
pressing '7' regardless of what filter is selected at the time.

In my opinion, it's best to set it ON now until the bug that causes gain
loss in the two sharpest DSP bandwidth settings when it's off is fixed.
After that, you can try the two options and see which one you prefer.

David Wilburn wrote:

> Depending on the different bw settings it is off or on.  Additionally it
> toggles if you hit it one too many times.  Could we get a list of when
> it should be on vs. off?  Is it safe to assume that if you are at a bw
> smaller than a xtal filter, it should be on?
>
>
> Dave Wilburn
> K4DGW
> K2/100 - S/N 5982
> K3/100 - S/N 766
>
>
>
> Vic K2VCO wrote:
>> Bob Evans wrote:
>>>   I
>>> never thought I'd be so happy with a 150 Hz filter bandwidth.  
>>> Honestly, the
>>> 100 Hz and 50 Hz bandwidths were useless though as the signal level
>>> dropped
>>> significantly.  It seemed much better a few firmware versions ago,
>>> but 150
>>> Hz worked fine for us...I was just getting "greedy" by trying to use
>>> the 100
>>> and 50 Hz BW.
>>
>> I have just found out that there is a bug that causes a gain reduction
>> just for these two bandwidths if they are set for FIR filters and not
>> IIR.
>>
>> You can fix it now by switching IIR ON, and when Elecraft fixes the
>> bug you can choose either IIR or FIR for these filters as you prefer.
>>
>> To switch between IIR and FIR, tap '7' on the keypad when you're in
>> any filter setup menu entry (e.g., CONFIG:FLx BW). You want it to say
>> IIR ON.

--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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[N5GE]

On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 07:43:47 -0700, Lyle Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> Depending on the different bw settings it is off or on.  Additionally it
>> toggles if you hit it one too many times.  Could we get a list of when
>> it should be on vs. off?  Is it safe to assume that if you are at a bw
>> smaller than a xtal filter, it should be on?
>
>I'm not sure I understand the question, but I'll attempt an answer.
>
>In any mode where a bandwidth less than 150 Hz is available, the DSP
>will use either FIR filters or IIR filters.  If you set IIR ON by
>tapping "7" in one of the CONDFIG:FLx menus so that "IIR ON" flashes
>briefly in the display, then you have globally enabled IIR filtering for
>these narrow bandwidths, regardless of mode or crystal (roofing) filter
>in use.  If instead it flashes "IIR OFF" then you are using FIR filters
>whenever the bandwidth is less than 150 Hz.
>
>When in the CONFIG" FLx menus, the "7" key is a toggle.  It doesn't
>matter which crystal filter is indicated in the menu when you tap "7".
>The setting applies to *all* filters in *all* modes which allow a
>bandwidth of less than 150 Hz.
>
>73,
>
>Lyle KK7P
>

[snip]

Thanks Lyle!  That's just what the Doctor ordered!

Tom, N5GE - SWOT 3537 - Grid EM12jq

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Essential Liberty to
purchase a little Temporary
Safety deserve neither
Liberty nor Safety"

An excerpt from a letter
written in 1755 from the
Assembly to the Governor
of Pennsylvania.

Support the entire Constitution, not
just the parts you like.

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