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KAT500 Auto or Manual

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k4vd

KAT500 Auto or Manual

Hi:

I'm the one that recently reported problems with the KPA500. I've replaced
all RF cables including the one out to the BALUN and the BALUN itself. I
know which bands are less than 10:1 in bypass and locked out bands that
exceed that SWR. Something in the amp just refuses to switch from straight
through (standby) to amplified (operate) and the radio sees infinite SWR
with the KPA500 in operate mode. Elecraft had me check one resistor that
might cause the problem and said further troubleshooting would have to be
at their facility. While I'm trying to dig up some schematics to help out
I'm getting the feeling it will be on its way back to E for service
shortly.

In the meantime, I got comment about how I run my KAT500: "KAT500 - We
normally leave the KAT in the MAN position, not AUTO. With varying SWR, the
KAT will tune while in transmit when in the AUTO position."

I'm not quite sure what that to make of that. I have my KAT500 in the AUTO
position thinking it's a good thing that the KAT will tune if something
happens... which it never does. But in AUTO, at least the tuner will retune
if I jump to a frequency that is not in memory.

In MAN mode, I have to initiate tuning myself. Why would I not want to let
the auto-tuner auto tune?

73,
Kev K4VD
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Don Wilhelm

Re: KAT500 Auto or Manual

Kev,

Put the KAT500 in AUTO mode and then let it autotune with a constant CW
signal (the ATU TUNE will produce the right signal) every 50 kHz across
each band of use and for each antenna. Then switch it to MAN mode.

The "problem" is mostly in SSB mode, but can also occur in CW mode.
The reason is that the forward power cannot be measured simultaneously
with reverse power.
Lets say you are in SSB mode - due to the syllabic nature of speech,
there will be times when the power is high and times when the power is low.
If the forward power is read during one of the times when the power is
low and the reverse power is read when the power is higher, it will
compute to a higher than normal SWR and the tuner will begin a retuning
cycle if set to AUTO.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 11/18/2017 2:41 PM, Kevin der Kinderen wrote:

> Hi:
>
> I'm the one that recently reported problems with the KPA500. I've replaced
> all RF cables including the one out to the BALUN and the BALUN itself. I
> know which bands are less than 10:1 in bypass and locked out bands that
> exceed that SWR. Something in the amp just refuses to switch from straight
> through (standby) to amplified (operate) and the radio sees infinite SWR
> with the KPA500 in operate mode. Elecraft had me check one resistor that
> might cause the problem and said further troubleshooting would have to be
> at their facility. While I'm trying to dig up some schematics to help out
> I'm getting the feeling it will be on its way back to E for service
> shortly.
>
>
> In the meantime, I got comment about how I run my KAT500: "KAT500 - We
> normally leave the KAT in the MAN position, not AUTO. With varying SWR, the
> KAT will tune while in transmit when in the AUTO position."
>
> I'm not quite sure what that to make of that. I have my KAT500 in the AUTO
> position thinking it's a good thing that the KAT will tune if something
> happens... which it never does. But in AUTO, at least the tuner will retune
> if I jump to a frequency that is not in memory.
>

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Nr4c

Re: KAT500 Auto or Manual

In reply to this post by k4vd

First it will screw up your transmission and once started it will go on and on and on and on till it either tunes or gives up. In Man mode it only returns when you want it to.

I run mine thru a training cycle now and then by setting free to band bottom plus 10KC and tune. Move up 20 and do again till I reach the top of band. I rarely need a retune while operating.

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill

> On Nov 18, 2017, at 2:41 PM, Kevin der Kinderen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi:
>
> I'm the one that recently reported problems with the KPA500. I've replaced
> all RF cables including the one out to the BALUN and the BALUN itself. I
> know which bands are less than 10:1 in bypass and locked out bands that
> exceed that SWR. Something in the amp just refuses to switch from straight
> through (standby) to amplified (operate) and the radio sees infinite SWR
> with the KPA500 in operate mode. Elecraft had me check one resistor that
> might cause the problem and said further troubleshooting would have to be
> at their facility. While I'm trying to dig up some schematics to help out
> I'm getting the feeling it will be on its way back to E for service
> shortly.
>
>
> In the meantime, I got comment about how I run my KAT500: "KAT500 - We
> normally leave the KAT in the MAN position, not AUTO. With varying SWR, the
> KAT will tune while in transmit when in the AUTO position."
>
> I'm not quite sure what that to make of that. I have my KAT500 in the AUTO
> position thinking it's a good thing that the KAT will tune if something
> happens... which it never does. But in AUTO, at least the tuner will retune
> if I jump to a frequency that is not in memory.
>
> In MAN mode, I have to initiate tuning myself. Why would I not want to let
> the auto-tuner auto tune?
>
> 73,
> Kev K4VD
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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k6dgw

Re: KAT500 Auto or Manual

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

Kevin, here's a little background, direct from one of the KAT500 engineers:

The KAT500 memories cover the range 1500 KHz to 60.0 MHz, no gaps, in a
series of "bins". Each bin holds capacitor and inductor values, relay
settings, antenna connector selection, and a couple of other values.
Each bin covers a bandwidth that is a function of frequency. The lower
bands are narrow and the BW of a bin increases as you go up in frequency.

For 80 meters, the bins are 20 KHz wide, and there are 90 of them from
3001 KHz to 4800 KHz. Most of the higher frequency bands [40 thru 15]
have 50 KHz bins. 12 and 10 are 100 KHz, and I believe 6 is 200 KHz.
So, to "train" your KAT500:

1. AUTO mode. Tap ATU TUNE to make it tune

2. Start at the center of the lowest bin for the band [3510 for 80] and
tune

3. QSY up the bin-width for the band and do it again.

4. You need to do this for each antenna you have for a given band.
Using the KAT500 Utility, you can designate one of the three antenna
connectors the default for each band. You can also lock out connectors
for each band, and they will be skipped when manually selecting antennas
on the front panel. It takes awhile but once you do it, you're set. I
found that some bands needed a little tweaking between summer and winter
but that's all.

You want to operate in MAN mode. The tuner can't measure SWR on other
than a continuous, steady signal. Operating in AUTO will cause phony
tune events. If the KAT500 is connected to the ACC connector of the K3,
it will follow your receive frequency and select the correct tuning
memory as you QSY.

Hope this helps,

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

>> In the meantime, I got comment about how I run my KAT500: "KAT500 - We
>> normally leave the KAT in the MAN position, not AUTO. With varying
>> SWR, the
>> KAT will tune while in transmit when in the AUTO position."
>>
>> I'm not quite sure what that to make of that. I have my KAT500 in the
>> AUTO
>> position thinking it's a good thing that the KAT will tune if something
>> happens... which it never does. But in AUTO, at least the tuner will
>> retune
>> if I jump to a frequency that is not in memory.
>>
>

k4vd

Re: KAT500 Auto or Manual

Thanks everyone for helping me understand the right way to use the KAT500.
I could have sworn I was doing the right thing by keeping it in auto. In
fact, that's how it has been setup up since day one here. I'm hoping that
didn't contribute to my KPA500 problem.

On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Kevin, here's a little background, direct from one of the KAT500 engineers:
>
> The KAT500 memories cover the range 1500 KHz to 60.0 MHz, no gaps, in a
> series of "bins". Each bin holds capacitor and inductor values, relay
> settings, antenna connector selection, and a couple of other values. Each
> bin covers a bandwidth that is a function of frequency. The lower bands
> are narrow and the BW of a bin increases as you go up in frequency.
>
> For 80 meters, the bins are 20 KHz wide, and there are 90 of them from
> 3001 KHz to 4800 KHz. Most of the higher frequency bands [40 thru 15] have
> 50 KHz bins. 12 and 10 are 100 KHz, and I believe 6 is 200 KHz. So, to
> "train" your KAT500:
>
> 1. AUTO mode. Tap ATU TUNE to make it tune
>
> 2. Start at the center of the lowest bin for the band [3510 for 80] and
> tune
>
> 3. QSY up the bin-width for the band and do it again.
>
> 4. You need to do this for each antenna you have for a given band. Using
> the KAT500 Utility, you can designate one of the three antenna connectors
> the default for each band. You can also lock out connectors for each band,
> and they will be skipped when manually selecting antennas on the front
> panel. It takes awhile but once you do it, you're set. I found that some
> bands needed a little tweaking between summer and winter but that's all.
>
> You want to operate in MAN mode. The tuner can't measure SWR on other
> than a continuous, steady signal. Operating in AUTO will cause phony tune
> events. If the KAT500 is connected to the ACC connector of the K3, it will
> follow your receive frequency and select the correct tuning memory as you
> QSY.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> 73,
>
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County
>
> In the meantime, I got comment about how I run my KAT500: "KAT500 - We
>>> normally leave the KAT in the MAN position, not AUTO. With varying SWR,
>>> the
>>> KAT will tune while in transmit when in the AUTO position."
>>>
>>> I'm not quite sure what that to make of that. I have my KAT500 in the
>>> AUTO
>>> position thinking it's a good thing that the KAT will tune if something
>>> happens... which it never does. But in AUTO, at least the tuner will
>>> retune
>>> if I jump to a frequency that is not in memory.
>>>
>>>
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Don Wilhelm

Re: KAT500 Auto or Manual

Kev,

For your indication of high SWR when the KPA500 is in OPERATE, try
replacing the coax jumpers with known good ones.
It is not unusual that a coax jumper (or antenna feedline) to seem to
work at lower power, but can breakdown at higher power levels,
particularly from a shield that has almost pulled away from the plug.
Also, make certain the PL-259 connectors are tight - snug them down a
bit more with pliers.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 11/18/2017 4:33 PM, Kevin der Kinderen wrote:
> Thanks everyone for helping me understand the right way to use the KAT500.
> I could have sworn I was doing the right thing by keeping it in auto. In
> fact, that's how it has been setup up since day one here. I'm hoping that
> didn't contribute to my KPA500 problem.
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Bill Frantz

Re: KAT500 Auto or Manual

In reply to this post by k6dgw

Is there a way of tuning the any of the Elecraft tuners outside
the legal transmission bands? I can imagine hooking an antenna
analyzer through the tuner and using the analyzer to know which
C, L, and Relay values are the best match. But I don't think any
of the Elecraft turners have a UI to set those values when
running the experiment.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 11/18/17 at 1:17 PM, [hidden email] (Fred Jensen) wrote:

>The KAT500 memories cover the range 1500 KHz to 60.0 MHz, no
>gaps, in a series of "bins". Each bin holds capacitor and
>inductor values, relay settings, antenna connector selection,
>and a couple of other values. Each bin covers a bandwidth
>that is a function of frequency. The lower bands are narrow
>and the BW of a bin increases as you go up in frequency.
>
>For 80 meters, the bins are 20 KHz wide, and there are 90 of
>them from 3001 KHz to 4800 KHz. Most of the higher frequency
>bands [40 thru 15] have 50 KHz bins. 12 and 10 are 100 KHz, and
>I believe 6 is 200 KHz. So, to "train" your KAT500:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz |"Insofar as the propositions of mathematics
refer to
408-356-8506 | reality, they are not certain; and insofar
they are
www.pwpconsult.com | certain, they do not refer to reality.”
-- Einstein

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Wes Stewart-2

Re: KAT500 Auto or Manual

In reply to this post by k6dgw

A slight correction. The tuner follows the transmit frequency, as it should.

Wes N7WS

On 11/18/2017 2:17 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
> [good stuff snipped]

> If the KAT500 is connected to the ACC connector of the K3, it will follow your
> receive frequency and select the correct tuning memory as you QSY.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> 73,
>
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County

Wes Stewart-2

Re: KAT500 Auto or Manual

In reply to this post by Bill Frantz

Sure there is, the KAT500 Utility.

Wes N7WS

On 11/18/2017 3:28 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
> Is there a way of tuning the any of the Elecraft tuners outside the legal
> transmission bands? I can imagine hooking an antenna analyzer through the
> tuner and using the analyzer to know which C, L, and Relay values are the best
> match. But I don't think any of the Elecraft turners have a UI to set those
> values when running the experiment.
>
> 73 Bill AE6JV

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Handbook

Re: KAT500 Auto or Manual

Test Message...

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18. Nov 2017 17:40 by [hidden email]:

> Sure there is, the KAT500 Utility.
>
> Wes N7WS
>
> On 11/18/2017 3:28 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
>> Is there a way of tuning the any of the Elecraft tuners outside the legal transmission bands? I can imagine hooking an antenna analyzer through the tuner and using the analyzer to know which C, L, and Relay values are the best match. But I don't think any of the Elecraft turners have a UI to set those values when running the experiment.
>>
> 73 Bill AE6JV
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: > http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: > mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: > http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: > http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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k6dgw

Re: KAT500 Auto or Manual

In reply to this post by Wes Stewart-2

Ummm ... sorry about that ... you're correct. I operate split so rarely
that turning "The Big Knob" takes them together in my mind. Also, I
misread the notes in my station notebook regarding the bin widths, Ron's
description is correct, mine was a little wrong.

Regarding using MAN mode when operating normally ... it depends on the
operating mode to some extent. The KAT measures the forward and
reflected power sequentially so it is possible for the fwd measurement
to me made at a power minimum [like in SSB] and the reflected to be made
at a higher output power. This will be computed as a higher SWR and
might trigger an autotune. Shouldn't be a problem on digital modes like
PSK31, the JT's, and FT8.

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 11/18/2017 2:37 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:

> A slight correction. The tuner follows the transmit frequency, as it
> should.
>
> Wes N7WS
>
> On 11/18/2017 2:17 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>> [good stuff snipped]
>
>> If the KAT500 is connected to the ACC connector of the K3, it will
>> follow your receive frequency and select the correct tuning memory as
>> you QSY.
>>
>> Hope this helps,
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
>> Sparks NV DM09dn
>> Washoe County
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Cady, Fred-2

Re: KAT500 Auto or Manual

In reply to this post by k4vd

Hi Kev,

Have a look at http://www.ke7x.com/home/k-line-introduction-and-set-up-guide (download the Elecraft-KAT500-KXAT100.pdf) for some information on how the KAT500 and KXAT100 tuners work.

73,

Fred KE7X

For info on KE7X Elecraft books, see www.ke7x.com<http://www.ke7x.com>

________________________________
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of Kevin der Kinderen <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2017 12:41 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] KAT500 Auto or Manual

Hi:

I'm the one that recently reported problems with the KPA500. I've replaced
all RF cables including the one out to the BALUN and the BALUN itself. I
know which bands are less than 10:1 in bypass and locked out bands that
exceed that SWR. Something in the amp just refuses to switch from straight
through (standby) to amplified (operate) and the radio sees infinite SWR
with the KPA500 in operate mode. Elecraft had me check one resistor that
might cause the problem and said further troubleshooting would have to be
at their facility. While I'm trying to dig up some schematics to help out
I'm getting the feeling it will be on its way back to E for service
shortly.

In the meantime, I got comment about how I run my KAT500: "KAT500 - We
normally leave the KAT in the MAN position, not AUTO. With varying SWR, the
KAT will tune while in transmit when in the AUTO position."

I'm not quite sure what that to make of that. I have my KAT500 in the AUTO
position thinking it's a good thing that the KAT will tune if something
happens... which it never does. But in AUTO, at least the tuner will retune
if I jump to a frequency that is not in memory.

In MAN mode, I have to initiate tuning myself. Why would I not want to let
the auto-tuner auto tune?

73,
Kev K4VD
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Wes Stewart-2

Re: KAT500 Auto or Manual

In reply to this post by k6dgw

The guys who think you can't work DX without a second receiver will get a kick
out of this, but I don't have one and sometimes resort to using the "REV" button
to listen on my split TX frequency. Normally, the SDR-IQ panadapter is all I
need for this. On bands like 160 where the bins are narrow the relays will
sometimes click as the radio now believes that I will transmit on the DX station
QRG in a different bin.

Wes N7WS

On 11/18/2017 3:59 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

> Ummm ... sorry about that ... you're correct. I operate split so rarely that
> turning "The Big Knob" takes them together in my mind. Also, I misread the
> notes in my station notebook regarding the bin widths, Ron's description is
> correct, mine was a little wrong.
>
> Regarding using MAN mode when operating normally ... it depends on the
> operating mode to some extent. The KAT measures the forward and reflected
> power sequentially so it is possible for the fwd measurement to me made at a
> power minimum [like in SSB] and the reflected to be made at a higher output
> power. This will be computed as a higher SWR and might trigger an autotune.
> Shouldn't be a problem on digital modes like PSK31, the JT's, and FT8.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County
>
> On 11/18/2017 2:37 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
>> A slight correction. The tuner follows the transmit frequency, as it should.
>>
>> Wes N7WS
>>
>> On 11/18/2017 2:17 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>>> [good stuff snipped]
>>
>>> If the KAT500 is connected to the ACC connector of the K3, it will follow
>>> your receive frequency and select the correct tuning memory as you QSY.
>>>
>>> Hope this helps,
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
>>> Sparks NV DM09dn
>>> Washoe County
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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