KIO3B

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KIO3B

Mike Harris-9
An observation.

Installed a KIO3B in K3 #345, no problems all working either RS232 or
USB or both together for CAT and audio.

I use Logger32 and prior to installing the KIO3B my 3GHz clock PC
comfortably delivered software CW from within Logger over RS232 without
the need for a Winkey unit.

I have been running the CAT/audio over USB but apart from checking that
CW keying was working, lights flashing, never listened to it. This
weekend, however, I did a bit of S&P in a CW contest using Logger macros
for calling and serial numbering. The CW was rather choppy and
noticeably staggered at times. So much so that it put me right off my
stride and I had to resort to hand keying.

For experiment I transferred CAT and CW over to the K3 RS232 port driven
from a real RS232 on the PC and everything was back to normal. Toggling
between USB and RS232 equally toggled the "problem" on and off.

Expanding upon this I transferred K3 RS232 to a USB/serial converter,
original Elecraft with Prolific chip set, and all was still OK. Couldn't
hear any difference between the native RS232 port and the USB adapter.

My non-PC specialist conclusion is that either the driver supporting the
KIO3B or all the USB routing action within the KIO3B is causing the damage.

No big deal for me to transfer CAT/CW during my very infrequent CW
contest activity, just unfortunate that in my cast the one cable
solution at present isn't.

Any thoughts.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO
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Re: KIO3B

Mike Murray-4
Interesting observation, especially since I've been considering the KIO3B
in an effort to reduce my  current rat's nest of cabling.  Has anyone else
noted this problem and/or found a solution?

Mike - W0AG

My non-PC specialist conclusion is that either the driver supporting the
> KIO3B or all the USB routing action within the KIO3B is causing the damage.
>
>
>
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Re: KIO3B

Jim AB3CV
Clean CW here well over 30 wpm.

GL

Jim ab3cv



On Sunday, March 13, 2016, Mike Murray <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Interesting observation, especially since I've been considering the KIO3B
> in an effort to reduce my  current rat's nest of cabling.  Has anyone else
> noted this problem and/or found a solution?
>
> Mike - W0AG
>
> My non-PC specialist conclusion is that either the driver supporting the
> > KIO3B or all the USB routing action within the KIO3B is causing the
> damage.
> >
> >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>
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Re: KIO3B

Kevin Stover
In reply to this post by Mike Harris-9
I have a Winkey. I use it.

On 3/13/2016 9:25 AM, Mike Harris wrote:
> An observation.
>
> Installed a KIO3B in K3 #345, no problems all working either RS232 or
> USB or both together for CAT and audio.
>
> I use Logger32 and prior to installing the KIO3B my 3GHz clock PC
> comfortably delivered software CW from within Logger over RS232
> without the need for a Winkey unit.
## How do you know that? It may work great at any specific time but
sooner or later the CW will get messed up.
If you don't have a Winkey USB I'd get one, One USB cable to the PC and
a key line to the rig. It's supported by all the contesting/general
logging software. It's also a real good standalone keyer, better than
the one in the K3(s).

I'd be using the RS-232 port on the K3s for rig control and the USB for
audio in/out.
The one cable solution may not be.
>
>
> Any thoughts.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike VP8NO
>
>


--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441


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Re: KIO3B

gm3sek
In reply to this post by Jim AB3CV
Same here too, well formed CW from both a K3 and a K3S using the KIO3B
board configured for USB. N1MM+ keys the virtual DTR line (no Winkey).

73 from Ian GM3SEK


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
>Jim Miller
>Sent: 13 March 2016 15:42
>To: [hidden email]
>Cc: [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KIO3B
>
>Clean CW here well over 30 wpm.
>
>GL
>
>Jim ab3cv
>
>
>
>On Sunday, March 13, 2016, Mike Murray <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Interesting observation, especially since I've been considering the
KIO3B
>> in an effort to reduce my  current rat's nest of cabling.  Has anyone
else
>> noted this problem and/or found a solution?
>>
>> Mike - W0AG
>>
>> My non-PC specialist conclusion is that either the driver supporting
the
>> > KIO3B or all the USB routing action within the KIO3B is causing the
>> damage.

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Re: KIO3B

Guy Olinger K2AV
This seems to be the same ole age old problem of relying on a PC keying CW
over a single lead on the RS232 connection or its stand-in (USB).

Over and over ad nauseum, literally thousands of times, this has been
discussed everywhere since before USB existed. Parallel port keying...if
you don't know what a parallel port is, don't feel bad, that's how old this
problem is...it first surfaced so long ago I can't remember how far back.
Parallel port keying seemed to be far less susceptible, with cleaner code
formation. But we all know what happened to parallel ports, if you even
know what one is.

I have not, in my entire life, heard a satisfying answer as to why the
difference.

The very large sample size conclusion: Some people can do that and sound
perfectly crisp, no matter what. Some will get infrequent odd scattered
distortions, that are not enough of a problem to worry about. Others are
driven to distraction with distortions sometimes bordering on hilarious.
Some computers have spells of it that come and go, seeming to correspond to
phases of the moon, alignment of planets, or giraffe mating season.

Some now have excellent results with straight, normal RS232, but USB routed
functions screw up. Others via USB lines do perfectly well. Others STILL
can't use the serial line approach AT ALL. Back in the day, slow CPU speed
and limited memory were often associated with the poor performance.

SOMETIMES, NOT ALWAYS, upgrades to the CPU and memory would fix it. Many
just gave up and went PERMANENTLY to WinKey (way, way cheaper than
motherboards and memory) based solutions, myself included.

The N1MM integration of WinKey devices is at this point flawless. And the
ability now to create tailored PTT, that changes with code speed from a
MicroHam box with embedded WinKey, is priceless.

There has NEVER, in all this decade of fighting this problem, been a silver
bullet solution that fixed the RS232 or USB key line problems. Over the
years I have literally seen hundreds of extended email threads about
dragged-on investigations by earnest and intelligent ham investigators who
never uncovered any solution except throwing bigger and better CPU's at the
problem, HOPING for better performance.

Some people having the problem, while others with similar or identical
equipment having none, simply means nothing. It has always been that way.
One swears that he did this or that and the problem went away, and it
really did go away when HE did that, he's not lying or deluded. But others
try the same solution and nothing changes.

Blaming key line over RS232 or USB problems on anything other than
poltergeist is just plain unfair. It just could be that one insulted Murphy
just one too many times.

I understand that people are trying to make cabling go away. Completely
understand. Been there, done that, failed. Back to WinKey, permanently. No
more wasting time, except my 432nd (or is it 610th, or 326th? I forget)
lifetime email on this frustrating problem.

I have other poltergeist to work on that have no convenient WinKey solution
standing by.

73, and I DO wish you good luck on this one, but don't count on it. PC's
and their constantly thrashing drivers and system program code just have
too many moving parts.

Guy K2AV

On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Ian White <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Same here too, well formed CW from both a K3 and a K3S using the KIO3B
> board configured for USB. N1MM+ keys the virtual DTR line (no Winkey).
>
> 73 from Ian GM3SEK
>
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> >Jim Miller
> >Sent: 13 March 2016 15:42
> >To: [hidden email]
> >Cc: [hidden email]
> >Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KIO3B
> >
> >Clean CW here well over 30 wpm.
> >
> >GL
> >
> >Jim ab3cv
> >
> >
> >
> >On Sunday, March 13, 2016, Mike Murray <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Interesting observation, especially since I've been considering the
> KIO3B
> >> in an effort to reduce my  current rat's nest of cabling.  Has anyone
> else
> >> noted this problem and/or found a solution?
> >>
> >> Mike - W0AG
> >>
> >> My non-PC specialist conclusion is that either the driver supporting
> the
> >> > KIO3B or all the USB routing action within the KIO3B is causing the
> >> damage.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
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Re: KIO3B

lstavenhagen
Goes back even further than that, all the way to the semi-automatic bug, in my opinion. We used to put relay circuits on our keys to get reliable, click/bounce free keying of our rigs, due to contact bounce and poor contact in general in the bug's moving parts. I'm going to have to build one of these for my two Vibroplex's in fact to properly key my elecrafts too, because of the occasional 7 to 8ohms that appears when making the Dahs....

For me, the only really working final solution to using a computer with my rigs has been to unhook it from the rig completely. When I go operate, I have the K2 or K3, a paddle or straight key and a pencil/notebook and that's it.

Yeah, I'll never win any contests, but at least I can key the rig. So at the end of the day, I've found, computers and ham rigs ultimately don't mix. Unless it's the elecraft panadapter...

smileys throughout,

73,
LS
W5QD
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Re: KIO3B

Gary Smith-2
In reply to this post by Mike Harris-9
Mike,

I am using a K3s but the KIO3B is the same for us and I believe the
config settings are the same for a K3 with it. I have the USB from
the KIO3B going to a powered USB hub with 5 devices total on it. I
have the RS232 from the K3s going to a P3 with the CBLP3Y.

I was working the Stew Perry contest last night, using N1MM and using

its macros to send CW. The only problem I had in sending is in
remembering which function key to hit as using a keyboard to send CW
is new to me (Well... I did have an Apple II+ back in 1981 that had a

board in it for CW/RTTY but nothing keyboard to send CW since then)

Someone (here, I believe) kindly helped me with the settings to use
with N1MM & the K3 and be sure if you use N1MM, to have in CONFIG,
the PTT-KEY set to OFF - RTS. I don't know if any of this will help
you but I can say that up to 30 WPM, there is no problem on this end
whatsoever. Your solution will likely be easy to resolve once you pin

it down.

73,

Gary
KA1J


> An observation.
>
> Installed a KIO3B in K3 #345, no problems all working either RS232 or
> USB or both together for CAT and audio.
>
> I use Logger32 and prior to installing the KIO3B my 3GHz clock PC
> comfortably delivered software CW from within Logger over RS232 without
> the need for a Winkey unit.
>
> I have been running the CAT/audio over USB but apart from checking that
> CW keying was working, lights flashing, never listened to it. This
> weekend, however, I did a bit of S&P in a CW contest using Logger macros
> for calling and serial numbering. The CW was rather choppy and
> noticeably staggered at times. So much so that it put me right off my
> stride and I had to resort to hand keying.
>
> For experiment I transferred CAT and CW over to the K3 RS232 port driven
> from a real RS232 on the PC and everything was back to normal. Toggling
> between USB and RS232 equally toggled the "problem" on and off.
>
> Expanding upon this I transferred K3 RS232 to a USB/serial converter,
> original Elecraft with Prolific chip set, and all was still OK. Couldn't
> hear any difference between the native RS232 port and the USB adapter.
>
> My non-PC specialist conclusion is that either the driver supporting the
> KIO3B or all the USB routing action within the KIO3B is causing the damage.
>
> No big deal for me to transfer CAT/CW during my very infrequent CW
> contest activity, just unfortunate that in my cast the one cable
> solution at present isn't.
>
> Any thoughts.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike VP8NO

_________________
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband


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Re: KIO3B

Bill Frantz
In reply to this post by Guy Olinger K2AV
One approach to reducing the cable mess might be to have the PC
key the K(X)3(S) using KY programming command, making the
radio's keyer send the CW.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 3/13/16 at 12:28 PM, [hidden email] (Guy Olinger K2AV) wrote:

>I understand that people are trying to make cabling go away. Completely
>understand. Been there, done that, failed. Back to WinKey, permanently. No
>more wasting time, except my 432nd (or is it 610th, or 326th? I forget)
>lifetime email on this frustrating problem.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz        | I don't have high-speed      | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506      | internet. I have DSL.        | 16345
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com |                              | Los Gatos,
CA 95032

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Re: KIO3B

Bill Frantz
In reply to this post by Mike Harris-9
One approach to reducing the cable mess might be to have the PC
key the K(X)3(S) using KY programming command, making the
radio's keyer send the CW. There are some existing programs
which use this technique.

[My CW isn't good enough to know if it actually works well when
operating north of 30 WPM.]

73 Bill AE6JV

On 3/13/16 at 12:28 PM, [hidden email] (Guy Olinger K2AV) wrote:

>I understand that people are trying to make cabling go away. Completely
>understand. Been there, done that, failed. Back to WinKey, permanently. No
>more wasting time, except my 432nd (or is it 610th, or 326th? I forget)
>lifetime email on this frustrating problem.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz        | I don't have high-speed      | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506      | internet. I have DSL.        | 16345
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com |                              | Los Gatos,
CA 95032

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Re: KIO3B

Guy Olinger K2AV
On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 4:19 PM, Bill Frantz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> One approach to reducing the cable mess might be to have the PC key the
> K(X)3(S) using KY programming command, making the radio's keyer send the
> CW. There are some existing programs which use this technique.
>
>
This is an approach that I'm working on since it can be sent from N1MM
function key strings (99% of CW contest sending) and can include rig
control commands and be blended with stuff that N1MM does well and doesn't
need change. Other folks are working on this and probably there will be a
collection of cute techniques that will emerge.

So far, so good.

73, Guy K2AV
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Re: KIO3B

Nr4c
One issue of using KY commands is the Esc key will no longer stop a transmission.

You cannot use Ctrl "K" to type a message to be sent by n1mm.

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill


> On Mar 13, 2016, at 4:58 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 4:19 PM, Bill Frantz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> One approach to reducing the cable mess might be to have the PC key the
>> K(X)3(S) using KY programming command, making the radio's keyer send the
>> CW. There are some existing programs which use this technique.
>>
>>
> This is an approach that I'm working on since it can be sent from N1MM
> function key strings (99% of CW contest sending) and can include rig
> control commands and be blended with stuff that N1MM does well and doesn't
> need change. Other folks are working on this and probably there will be a
> collection of cute techniques that will emerge.
>
> So far, so good.
>
> 73, Guy K2AV
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
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Re: KIO3B

gm3sek
In reply to this post by Guy Olinger K2AV
I have read the same discussions about problems with serial-port keying,
and like Guy, have never understood why some people experience timing
problems while others do not.

However, the point at issue here is much more specific: VP8NO's
observation that his KIO3B-USB connection in his older K3 had keying
problems whereas his hardware RS232 connection did not.  I was only
trying to balance that with the observation that the KIO3B's USB port
*is* capable of providing good serial-port keying in the absence of any
other problems.


73 from Ian GM3SEK


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
>Guy Olinger K2AV
>Sent: 13 March 2016 19:29
>To: Ian White
>Cc: Elecraft Reflector
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KIO3B
>
>This seems to be the same ole age old problem of relying on a PC keying
CW
>over a single lead on the RS232 connection or its stand-in (USB).
>
>Over and over ad nauseum, literally thousands of times, this has been
>discussed everywhere since before USB existed. Parallel port
keying...if
>you don't know what a parallel port is, don't feel bad, that's how old
this
>problem is...it first surfaced so long ago I can't remember how far
back.
>Parallel port keying seemed to be far less susceptible, with cleaner
code
>formation. But we all know what happened to parallel ports, if you even
>know what one is.
>
>I have not, in my entire life, heard a satisfying answer as to why the
>difference.
>
>The very large sample size conclusion: Some people can do that and
sound
>perfectly crisp, no matter what. Some will get infrequent odd scattered
>distortions, that are not enough of a problem to worry about. Others
are
>driven to distraction with distortions sometimes bordering on
hilarious.
>Some computers have spells of it that come and go, seeming to
correspond
>to
>phases of the moon, alignment of planets, or giraffe mating season.
>
>Some now have excellent results with straight, normal RS232, but USB
>routed
>functions screw up. Others via USB lines do perfectly well. Others
STILL
>can't use the serial line approach AT ALL. Back in the day, slow CPU
speed
>and limited memory were often associated with the poor performance.
>
>SOMETIMES, NOT ALWAYS, upgrades to the CPU and memory would fix it.
>Many
>just gave up and went PERMANENTLY to WinKey (way, way cheaper than
>motherboards and memory) based solutions, myself included.
>
>The N1MM integration of WinKey devices is at this point flawless. And
the
>ability now to create tailored PTT, that changes with code speed from a
>MicroHam box with embedded WinKey, is priceless.
>
>There has NEVER, in all this decade of fighting this problem, been a
silver
>bullet solution that fixed the RS232 or USB key line problems. Over the
>years I have literally seen hundreds of extended email threads about
>dragged-on investigations by earnest and intelligent ham investigators
who
>never uncovered any solution except throwing bigger and better CPU's at
>the
>problem, HOPING for better performance.
>
>Some people having the problem, while others with similar or identical
>equipment having none, simply means nothing. It has always been that
way.
>One swears that he did this or that and the problem went away, and it
>really did go away when HE did that, he's not lying or deluded. But
others
>try the same solution and nothing changes.
>
>Blaming key line over RS232 or USB problems on anything other than
>poltergeist is just plain unfair. It just could be that one insulted
Murphy
>just one too many times.
>
>I understand that people are trying to make cabling go away. Completely
>understand. Been there, done that, failed. Back to WinKey, permanently.
No
>more wasting time, except my 432nd (or is it 610th, or 326th? I forget)
>lifetime email on this frustrating problem.
>
>I have other poltergeist to work on that have no convenient WinKey
solution
>standing by.
>
>73, and I DO wish you good luck on this one, but don't count on it.
PC's
>and their constantly thrashing drivers and system program code just
have
>too many moving parts.
>
>Guy K2AV
>
>On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Ian White <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>
>> Same here too, well formed CW from both a K3 and a K3S using the
KIO3B
>> board configured for USB. N1MM+ keys the virtual DTR line (no
Winkey).
>>
>> 73 from Ian GM3SEK
>>
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of

>> >Jim Miller
>> >Sent: 13 March 2016 15:42
>> >To: [hidden email]
>> >Cc: [hidden email]
>> >Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KIO3B
>> >
>> >Clean CW here well over 30 wpm.
>> >
>> >GL
>> >
>> >Jim ab3cv
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >On Sunday, March 13, 2016, Mike Murray <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>> >
>> >> Interesting observation, especially since I've been considering
the
>> KIO3B
>> >> in an effort to reduce my  current rat's nest of cabling.  Has
anyone
>> else
>> >> noted this problem and/or found a solution?
>> >>
>> >> Mike - W0AG
>> >>
>> >> My non-PC specialist conclusion is that either the driver
supporting
>> the
>> >> > KIO3B or all the USB routing action within the KIO3B is causing
the

>> >> damage.
>>
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Re: KIO3B

Kevin Stover
Sometimes there really is no good explanation because people don't use
the same hardware, and thus have different drivers installed. They also
have different software installed. The machine I'm typing this on is a
quad core processor running at 4Ghz with 16 Gigabytes of ram and a pair
of SSD's. This thing rips by anybody's standard. It won't run Adobe
Flash worth a crap. All three browsers will lock up from time to time.
Kill the Flash plugin and it works but there goes my "multimedia
experience".

So, it could be hardware, it could be USB driver versions, it could be
drivers for any of the hardware installed, it could be installed
software. It could be Windows itself. Point is the Winkey bypasses all
that stuff and is still "one wire compliant" in that it doesn't connect
to the radio except the key jack which I assume may already have a
paddle hooked up.

On 3/13/2016 5:34 PM, Ian White wrote:

> I have read the same discussions about problems with serial-port keying,
> and like Guy, have never understood why some people experience timing
> problems while others do not.
>
> However, the point at issue here is much more specific: VP8NO's
> observation that his KIO3B-USB connection in his older K3 had keying
> problems whereas his hardware RS232 connection did not.  I was only
> trying to balance that with the observation that the KIO3B's USB port
> *is* capable of providing good serial-port keying in the absence of any
> other problems.
>
>
> 73 from Ian GM3SEK
>
>

--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441


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Re: KIO3B

Mike Harris-9
Many thanks to all who have taken the time to respond to this thread. I
will continue to try and resolve this issue and as a first step I
plugged the K3 USB into my Toshiba NB510 Netbook, fired up L32 (slightly
earlier version) and the CW machine and the software/DTR CW was fine.

The netbook has nowhere near the power of the Dell desktop so
investigation is in order.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

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