KPA 1500 - SO2R

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KPA 1500 - SO2R

Elecraft mailing list
Hi Gang:
     Looking for some info. From the PDF and pictures  it looks like this
amp will NOT do SO2R.  Is that correct?
 
Gerald Muller K9GEM
[hidden email]
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Re: KPA 1500 - SO2R

wayne burdick
Administrator
Gerald,

SO2R done correctly requires extensive path shielding, switching components, and control circuitry. Adding these would increase the size and cost of the KPA1500 for all customers, while only a small percentage would make use of them. So we feel that an external controller providing SO2R or other specialized switching would be more appropriate.

KPA1500 firmware will be updated to fully support such products as we identify them. We oversized the microcontroller memory by a factor of about 8 to allow for such expansion. In addition to SO2R, there may be other gear such as antenna switches that we can directly control from the amp’s antenna and ATU switches, and status can be shown on the 32-character LCD.

73,
Wayne
N6KR



> On Apr 24, 2017, at 8:18 PM, Jerry Muller via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Gang:
>     Looking for some info. From the PDF and pictures  it looks like this
> amp will NOT do SO2R.  Is that correct?
>
> Gerald Muller K9GEM
> [hidden email]




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Re: KPA 1500 - SO2R

Paul Van Dyke
In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list
Thank you Wayne Eric and the crew

 I have more than two antennas and was wondering how I was going to hook
them all up easily

 Thank You see you at Dayton

Paul KB9AVO

On Apr 24, 2017 11:18 PM, "Jerry Muller via Elecraft" <
[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Gang:
     Looking for some info. From the PDF and pictures  it looks like this
amp will NOT do SO2R.  Is that correct?

Gerald Muller K9GEM
[hidden email]
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Re: KPA 1500 - SO2R

Bill Frantz
In reply to this post by wayne burdick
My most wonderful and understanding wife has requested that the
number of "wires" coming into the house be minimized. To
accommodate her wishes, I have an external antenna switch. It
would be very nice if all the Elecraft tuners could take an
externally provided antenna ID to use to recall the antenna
tuning parameters. A 4 bit "band ID" would be ideal, but a
command over the RS-232 interface would also work.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 4/25/17 at 7:50 AM, [hidden email] (Wayne Burdick) wrote:

>KPA1500 firmware will be updated to fully support such products
>as we identify them. We oversized the microcontroller memory by
>a factor of about 8 to allow for such expansion. In addition to
>SO2R, there may be other gear such as antenna switches that we
>can directly control from the amp’s antenna and ATU switches,
>and status can be shown on the 32-character LCD.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz        | Airline peanut bag: "Produced  | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506      | in a facility that processes   | 16345
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | peanuts and other nuts." - Duh | Los Gatos,
CA 95032

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Re: KPA 1500 - SO2R

Bob-2
Hi Bill,

        No XYL requests involved but in a similar manner I have reduced the feed
lines into the shack.  I have a remote antenna switch system consisting of an
Array Solutions Rat Pack with the Ten Tec interface box.  This is under control
of an Elecraft KRC2 unit.  It saves many feet of coax and reduces the in shack
cable clutter.

        Station is K3, KPA500 and KAT500 and more Elecraft with K2 and KX3. My
issue is I'm not getting full value from the KAT500.  It is capable of switching
3 antennas.  But with a single feed line on position one all else is lost.  So
my request would be to be able select alternative programmed values by using the
KAT 500 antenna switch. Any manually selected antenna would apply tuner values
to the antenna position but ANT 1 would remain selected.   As it is now it works
but requires retuning when manually changing between selected, say, 80 meter
antennas and prior values are lost. In hardware I could do it now but don't want
to butcher the KAT500.

        Well beyond my pay grade as I do not know how much reprogramming would
be required in the firmware and utility to select this as an option.

         This option could possibly be done in the KPA1500 too. Certainly be a
plus in consideration of the KPA1500  which seems to have less in that there are
only 2 antenna selections available.

73,
Bob
K2TK  ex KN2TKR (1956) and K2TKR



On 4/25/2017 4:14 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:

> My most wonderful and understanding wife has requested that the number of
> "wires" coming into the house be minimized. To accommodate her wishes, I have an
> external antenna switch. It would be very nice if all the Elecraft tuners could
> take an externally provided antenna ID to use to recall the antenna tuning
> parameters. A 4 bit "band ID" would be ideal, but a command over the RS-232
> interface would also work.
>
> 73 Bill AE6JV
>
> On 4/25/17 at 7:50 AM, [hidden email] (Wayne Burdick) wrote:
>
>> KPA1500 firmware will be updated to fully support such products as we identify
>> them. We oversized the microcontroller memory by a factor of about 8 to allow
>> for such expansion. In addition to SO2R, there may be other gear such as
>> antenna switches that we can directly control from the amp’s antenna and ATU
>> switches, and status can be shown on the 32-character LCD.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bill Frantz        | Airline peanut bag: "Produced  | Periwinkle
> (408)356-8506      | in a facility that processes   | 16345 Englewood Ave
> www.pwpconsult.com | peanuts and other nuts." - Duh | Los Gatos, CA 95032

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Re: KPA 1500 - SO2R

K7TV
In reply to this post by Bill Frantz
When the original poster referred to SO2R capability, I think he meant one amplifier being able to handle transmission from both radios. At 100W having a separate amp as part of each radio is no big deal, but at the price of a KPA1500, one really wants to pay for only one, given that SO2R means only one radio can be transmitting at a given time.

I am just a beginner at SO2R, but I have already spent a lot of time thinking about various aspects of the subject.

First there is the "SO2R controller" issue. There seem to be a lot of different designs out there, and they don't necessarily try to solve the same problem. Rather, different users seem to form personal opinions of what functions are to be implemented, and available implementations reflect that. Issues that may or may not be addressed in depth include routing of radio inputs, radio outputs, and radio controls, including interlocks to ensure that only one radio can transmit at a time.

Second, there is the configuration of the radio boxes. Normally the two radios operate on different bands. With 5 or 6 bands used in a HF contest, there will be many combinations of band choices for two transceivers. One can set each radio manually to the proper band, but sometimes one might want to use a central control to select a combination of bands rather than individual bands. When amplifiers are added to the picture, the situation becomes more complex. I have one KPA500, on the main K3. That works well if that radio is on say 40 and the second radio is on 15, since power is often needed on the lower bands, while 15 often doesn't need much power if open. Now suppose 15 closes and I want to go to 80 with the second radio. 80 might need the amp more than 40, so how do I quickly switch the amp over to the other radio? A similar situation would exist if I had two amp's with different power capabilities. The ability to "share" one amp between both radios would be very attractive. On the other hand, if I did not have that capability, but instead had a second KPA500 in addition to my existing one, I might in a given situation want to combine both for 40 while running barefoot on 15. Clearly, it may be shortsighted to address such individual capabilities individually, and from a manufacturer's standpoint it would make sense to have a generalised scheme of configuration, maybe with GUI software that allows the user to configure things by drawing and storing interconnection schematics. Of course, that is just the control side of it. The physical switching side, with proper isolation may be both complex and expensive.

Third, antenna selection. One user may use many feedlines, while another tries to use only one. Antennas themselves may be monobanders or multi. I think most of us have been struggling with how to best utilize the fixed numbers of antenna connectors on different radios and tuners. What seems like ideal features to one user may seem totally wrong to another, even in a single radio scenario. With SO2R, we want to be able to select between several different antennas used by two radios. Isolation must be excellent so that neither radio will be interfered with by the other. The antennas themselves may sabotage the isolation by their proximity and configuration. The ideal station would perhaps have separate antennas widely spaced from each other. The average ham is more likely to use fewer,  multiband antennas. A typical switch box has two radio connectors and several antenna connectors, and it should not allow both radios to connect to the same antenna. In any case, the switching hardware operates at high power and is likely to be expensive. Ulitmately, it might be best seen as part of the expensive switching network that configures the radio box interconnections as discussed in the previous paragraph.

To summarize, SO2R is a complex subject, and it is currently addressed mostly in a fractured way, using a conglomeration of hardware solutions to solve different pieces of the puzzle. There is such a diversity of user requirements that any "total solution" that would hypothetically be offered by any one manufacturer is likely to seem wrong to many potential customers, unless the archictecture is extremely advanced. Nevertheless, even a manufacturer that offers only pieces of the puzzle should over time gain an edge if its products supports major classes of configuration requirements.

I don't know if there is room in this forum to have much discussion of what features would be appropriate in future SO2R-related offerings from Elecraft, but previous posts have started to touch on the subject. Personally I would suggest that hams like myself with limited real estate and going to SO2R are likely to be using multiband antennas but still need antenna switching other than what may exist in radios, amplifiers and tuners. In other words, discussing how many connectors a radio or tuner should have may be a dead end approach. It is interesting to note that HF antenna multiplexers allow two radios to use the same multiband antenna, and that the isolation in such a configuration tends to be much better than what is achieved with closely spaced separate antennas. The multiplexer transforms the multiband antenna's single feedline into separate connections for each band. Thus, a SO2R antenna switch as commonly used by a superstation today, with connections for two radios and several monobanders, is still appropriate for the modest station using a single multiband antenna shared between two radios. Firmware and hardware offered by Elecraft in the future for the purpose of SO2R would do well to anticipate and support such configurations.

73,
Erik K7TV

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bob
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 8:12 PM
To: Bill Frantz <[hidden email]>; Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA 1500 - SO2R

Hi Bill,

        No XYL requests involved but in a similar manner I have reduced the feed lines into the shack.  I have a remote antenna switch system consisting of an Array Solutions Rat Pack with the Ten Tec interface box.  This is under control of an Elecraft KRC2 unit.  It saves many feet of coax and reduces the in shack cable clutter.

        Station is K3, KPA500 and KAT500 and more Elecraft with K2 and KX3. My issue is I'm not getting full value from the KAT500.  It is capable of switching
3 antennas.  But with a single feed line on position one all else is lost.  So my request would be to be able select alternative programmed values by using the KAT 500 antenna switch. Any manually selected antenna would apply tuner values
to the antenna position but ANT 1 would remain selected.   As it is now it works
but requires retuning when manually changing between selected, say, 80 meter antennas and prior values are lost. In hardware I could do it now but don't want to butcher the KAT500.

        Well beyond my pay grade as I do not know how much reprogramming would be required in the firmware and utility to select this as an option.

         This option could possibly be done in the KPA1500 too. Certainly be a plus in consideration of the KPA1500  which seems to have less in that there are only 2 antenna selections available.

73,
Bob
K2TK  ex KN2TKR (1956) and K2TKR



On 4/25/2017 4:14 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:

> My most wonderful and understanding wife has requested that the number
> of "wires" coming into the house be minimized. To accommodate her
> wishes, I have an external antenna switch. It would be very nice if
> all the Elecraft tuners could take an externally provided antenna ID
> to use to recall the antenna tuning parameters. A 4 bit "band ID"
> would be ideal, but a command over the RS-232 interface would also work.
>
> 73 Bill AE6JV
>
> On 4/25/17 at 7:50 AM, [hidden email] (Wayne Burdick) wrote:
>
>> KPA1500 firmware will be updated to fully support such products as we
>> identify them. We oversized the microcontroller memory by a factor of
>> about 8 to allow for such expansion. In addition to SO2R, there may
>> be other gear such as antenna switches that we can directly control
>> from the amp’s antenna and ATU switches, and status can be shown on the 32-character LCD.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bill Frantz        | Airline peanut bag: "Produced  | Periwinkle
> (408)356-8506      | in a facility that processes   | 16345 Englewood Ave
> www.pwpconsult.com | peanuts and other nuts." - Duh | Los Gatos, CA
> 95032

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Re: KPA 1500 - SO2R

charlie carroll
In reply to this post by wayne burdick
Wayne:
Can you provide a bit more detail on the "amp's antenna and ATU
switches?"  What is your design currently capable of directly
controlling, e.g. sink/source, number of output lines, do they need more
decoding, etc.

thanks
73 charlie, k1xx

On 4/25/2017 10:50 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Gerald,
>
> SO2R done correctly requires extensive path shielding, switching components, and control circuitry. Adding these would increase the size and cost of the KPA1500 for all customers, while only a small percentage would make use of them. So we feel that an external controller providing SO2R or other specialized switching would be more appropriate.
>
> KPA1500 firmware will be updated to fully support such products as we identify them. We oversized the microcontroller memory by a factor of about 8 to allow for such expansion. In addition to SO2R, there may be other gear such as antenna switches that we can directly control from the amp’s antenna and ATU switches, and status can be shown on the 32-character LCD.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>
>> On Apr 24, 2017, at 8:18 PM, Jerry Muller via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Gang:
>>      Looking for some info. From the PDF and pictures  it looks like this
>> amp will NOT do SO2R.  Is that correct?
>>
>> Gerald Muller K9GEM
>> [hidden email]
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Enhancements for SO2R (was KPA 1500 - SO2R)

w8fn
In reply to this post by Bob-2
I'm changing the topic to more accurately reflect the ongoing discussion.

I'm also using a KAT500 on each of my two K-lines in my SO2R station,
and I too would appreciate a bit more "intelligence" in the KAT500. My
fully automated antenna switching arrangement uses a microHAM Double Ten
switch, with the control for the two radio ports coming from a Station
Master on each radio, so there are only two feedlines that enter the
radio room.The antenna switching hardware is concealed in the attic on
the other side of the wall from the station. Like everyone else who has
attempted to set up a SO2R station using multiband antennas, I've
grappled with the problem that the design of all the currently available
switching and control hardware explicitly assumes you have separate
antennas for each band. For many of us, this just isn't true.

I mainly use the KAT500 as a line flattener for my 160, 80 and 40 meter
antennas; no problem there. But.. I also have a 20-15-10 dipole that I
use for the second radio on the high bands. The dipole is pretty low and
isn't particularly well matched, especially on 15 and 10. I now have the
KAT500 on the secondary radio set up to match the dipole on 20 through
10. However, if I'm running SO2R with the primary radio on 40 and the
secondary radio on 20 then I'll normally switch my SteppIR to the
secondary radio, meaning I have to remember to put the KAT500 in bypass,
and then to change it back later. Sometimes I don't. (Mother Nature and
Father Time, you know.)

Even in SO1R mode, I sometimes want to quickly switch to the dipole on
the high bands if someone calls me well out of the beam's main lobe. The
Station Master makes the actual switching very easy via a keypad on the
desk, but in this case I end up with the radio looking into a fairly
high VSWR antenna if I don't also manually put the KAT500 in bypass
mode. This isn't so good, especially if I'm running the KPA500.

What would be REALLY NICE would be if there were some way for the KAT500
to know which ANTENNA has been selected, and switch in the appropriate
matching solution for that antenna on that band. I don't see any way to
do this, given the present architecture. If there were some additional
communication channel between the station control hardware and the
KAT500 (and other Elecraft products) such as an extended command over
the RS232 link in the case of the KAT500 or over the USB link for the
KPA1500, conveying both band information and antenna ID could
potentially be done. A simple 4 bit band code wouldn't be sufficient,
but perhaps an 8 bit word with 4 bits of band information and 4 bits of
antenna number would work. Of course, there then remains the
not-so-small matter of formatting and transmitting this information
packet from a wide variety of station control architectures using
hardware from a number of vendors. Perhaps if Elecraft were to pave the
way by implementing this capability the makers of the various commercial
controllers would be willing to code in support for the feature. Just
thinking out loud, and wishing...

73...
Randy, W8FN


On 4/25/2017 10:11 PM, Bob wrote:

> Hi Bill,
>
>        No XYL requests involved but in a similar manner I have reduced
> the feed lines into the shack.  I have a remote antenna switch system
> consisting of an Array Solutions Rat Pack with the Ten Tec interface
> box.  This is under control of an Elecraft KRC2 unit.  It saves many
> feet of coax and reduces the in shack cable clutter.
>
>        Station is K3, KPA500 and KAT500 and more Elecraft with K2 and
> KX3. My issue is I'm not getting full value from the KAT500. It is
> capable of switching 3 antennas.  But with a single feed line on
> position one all else is lost.  So my request would be to be able
> select alternative programmed values by using the KAT 500 antenna
> switch. Any manually selected antenna would apply tuner values to the
> antenna position but ANT 1 would remain selected. As it is now it
> works but requires retuning when manually changing between selected,
> say, 80 meter antennas and prior values are lost. In hardware I could
> do it now but don't want to butcher the KAT500.
>
>        Well beyond my pay grade as I do not know how much
> reprogramming would be required in the firmware and utility to select
> this as an option.
>
>         This option could possibly be done in the KPA1500 too.
> Certainly be a plus in consideration of the KPA1500  which seems to
> have less in that there are only 2 antenna selections available.
>
> 73,
> Bob
> K2TK  ex KN2TKR (1956) and K2TKR
>
>
>
> On 4/25/2017 4:14 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
>> My most wonderful and understanding wife has requested that the
>> number of
>> "wires" coming into the house be minimized. To accommodate her
>> wishes, I have an
>> external antenna switch. It would be very nice if all the Elecraft
>> tuners could
>> take an externally provided antenna ID to use to recall the antenna
>> tuning
>> parameters. A 4 bit "band ID" would be ideal, but a command over the
>> RS-232
>> interface would also work.
>>
>> 73 Bill AE6JV
>>
>> On 4/25/17 at 7:50 AM, [hidden email] (Wayne Burdick) wrote:
>>
>>> KPA1500 firmware will be updated to fully support such products as
>>> we identify
>>> them. We oversized the microcontroller memory by a factor of about 8
>>> to allow
>>> for such expansion. In addition to SO2R, there may be other gear
>>> such as
>>> antenna switches that we can directly control from the amp’s antenna
>>> and ATU
>>> switches, and status can be shown on the 32-character LCD.
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Bill Frantz        | Airline peanut bag: "Produced  | Periwinkle
>> (408)356-8506      | in a facility that processes   | 16345 Englewood
>> Ave
>> www.pwpconsult.com | peanuts and other nuts." - Duh | Los Gatos, CA 95032

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Re: Enhancements for SO2R (was KPA 1500 - SO2R)

wayne burdick
Administrator
Randy,

I'm pretty sure we could support per-antenna ATU settings for multiple external antennas in both KAT500 and KPA1500 firmware. We'd need to get the data from the external switch box, or from a computer application.

I'll run this by the QRO product software team.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

----
http://www.elecraft.com

> On Apr 27, 2017, at 12:45 PM, Randy Farmer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I'm changing the topic to more accurately reflect the ongoing discussion.
>
> I'm also using a KAT500 on each of my two K-lines in my SO2R station, and I too would appreciate a bit more "intelligence" in the KAT500. My fully automated antenna switching arrangement uses a microHAM Double Ten switch, with the control for the two radio ports coming from a Station Master on each radio, so there are only two feedlines that enter the radio room.The antenna switching hardware is concealed in the attic on the other side of the wall from the station. Like everyone else who has attempted to set up a SO2R station using multiband antennas, I've grappled with the problem that the design of all the currently available switching and control hardware explicitly assumes you have separate antennas for each band. For many of us, this just isn't true.
>
> I mainly use the KAT500 as a line flattener for my 160, 80 and 40 meter antennas; no problem there. But.. I also have a 20-15-10 dipole that I use for the second radio on the high bands. The dipole is pretty low and isn't particularly well matched, especially on 15 and 10. I now have the KAT500 on the secondary radio set up to match the dipole on 20 through 10. However, if I'm running SO2R with the primary radio on 40 and the secondary radio on 20 then I'll normally switch my SteppIR to the secondary radio, meaning I have to remember to put the KAT500 in bypass, and then to change it back later. Sometimes I don't. (Mother Nature and Father Time, you know.)
>
> Even in SO1R mode, I sometimes want to quickly switch to the dipole on the high bands if someone calls me well out of the beam's main lobe. The Station Master makes the actual switching very easy via a keypad on the desk, but in this case I end up with the radio looking into a fairly high VSWR antenna if I don't also manually put the KAT500 in bypass mode. This isn't so good, especially if I'm running the KPA500.
>
> What would be REALLY NICE would be if there were some way for the KAT500 to know which ANTENNA has been selected, and switch in the appropriate matching solution for that antenna on that band. I don't see any way to do this, given the present architecture. If there were some additional communication channel between the station control hardware and the KAT500 (and other Elecraft products) such as an extended command over the RS232 link in the case of the KAT500 or over the USB link for the KPA1500, conveying both band information and antenna ID could potentially be done. A simple 4 bit band code wouldn't be sufficient, but perhaps an 8 bit word with 4 bits of band information and 4 bits of antenna number would work. Of course, there then remains the not-so-small matter of formatting and transmitting this information packet from a wide variety of station control architectures using hardware from a number of vendors. Perhaps if Elecraft were to pave the way by implementing this capability the makers of the various commercial controllers would be willing to code in support for the feature. Just thinking out loud, and wishing...
>
> 73...
> Randy, W8FN
>
>
>> On 4/25/2017 10:11 PM, Bob wrote:
>> Hi Bill,
>>
>>       No XYL requests involved but in a similar manner I have reduced the feed lines into the shack.  I have a remote antenna switch system consisting of an Array Solutions Rat Pack with the Ten Tec interface box.  This is under control of an Elecraft KRC2 unit.  It saves many feet of coax and reduces the in shack cable clutter.
>>
>>       Station is K3, KPA500 and KAT500 and more Elecraft with K2 and KX3. My issue is I'm not getting full value from the KAT500. It is capable of switching 3 antennas.  But with a single feed line on position one all else is lost.  So my request would be to be able select alternative programmed values by using the KAT 500 antenna switch. Any manually selected antenna would apply tuner values to the antenna position but ANT 1 would remain selected. As it is now it works but requires retuning when manually changing between selected, say, 80 meter antennas and prior values are lost. In hardware I could do it now but don't want to butcher the KAT500.
>>
>>       Well beyond my pay grade as I do not know how much reprogramming would be required in the firmware and utility to select this as an option.
>>
>>        This option could possibly be done in the KPA1500 too. Certainly be a plus in consideration of the KPA1500  which seems to have less in that there are only 2 antenna selections available.
>>
>> 73,
>> Bob
>> K2TK  ex KN2TKR (1956) and K2TKR
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 4/25/2017 4:14 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
>>> My most wonderful and understanding wife has requested that the number of
>>> "wires" coming into the house be minimized. To accommodate her wishes, I have an
>>> external antenna switch. It would be very nice if all the Elecraft tuners could
>>> take an externally provided antenna ID to use to recall the antenna tuning
>>> parameters. A 4 bit "band ID" would be ideal, but a command over the RS-232
>>> interface would also work.
>>>
>>> 73 Bill AE6JV
>>>
>>>> On 4/25/17 at 7:50 AM, [hidden email] (Wayne Burdick) wrote:
>>>>
>>>> KPA1500 firmware will be updated to fully support such products as we identify
>>>> them. We oversized the microcontroller memory by a factor of about 8 to allow
>>>> for such expansion. In addition to SO2R, there may be other gear such as
>>>> antenna switches that we can directly control from the amp’s antenna and ATU
>>>> switches, and status can be shown on the 32-character LCD.
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Bill Frantz        | Airline peanut bag: "Produced  | Periwinkle
>>> (408)356-8506      | in a facility that processes   | 16345 Englewood Ave
>>> www.pwpconsult.com | peanuts and other nuts." - Duh | Los Gatos, CA 95032
>
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