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KPA 500

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Grant Youngman

Re: KPA 500

Amen!! You know, maybe we should let Elecraft manage Elecraft?

This same thread ran out weeks ago, with all the same information. You want to be an engineer or VP Sales? Send Elecraft a resume and ask for a freaking job! You want to tell Elecraft how to run their company, to manage your inability to deliver software that will allow you to press a button long or short enough, to blame K3 firmware for every piece of software you have installed on your lousy OS, or read the manual, or keep it from rusting? ... be an angel VC and convince them to let you invest enough money so you can run the place .. or just take a break.

I suspect Elecraft would tell you to take a break. A useful thread (for some) has once again been turned to a crock ... by a bunch of would-be engineers and clueless (I'm being VERY kind) would-be marketing and sales types

For the record, my K3 is not rusting. It works just like the it's supposed to.

Good grief, guys .... I want to maintain my subscription to this list, but it's getting hard to do, given the continuously floating garbage ...

Grant/NQ5T

On Oct 19, 2010, at 12:21 PM, Giulio IW3HVB wrote:

> I'm waiting for the "End of Thread" msg by Wayne....
>

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ussv dharma

good earphones

In reply to this post by Terry Schieler

finally found a good set of phones for K3....Kenwood HS-5. Audio now at 9 oclock and volume is great...with the Heil it had to be 3 oclock and then volume was poor.

susan

If you don't change direction you WILL arrive exactly where you're headed!! Susan Meckley, Skipper W7KFI-mm AFA9SM USSV DHARMA

--- On Tue, 10/19/10, Terry Schieler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Terry Schieler <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA 500
> To: "'Guy Olinger K2AV'" <[hidden email]>, "'Joe Subich, W4TV'" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 10:53 AM
> Guy, K2AV wrote: " I want them
> PROFITABLE so I get to keep them."
>
> That's a message I've used in our business for many
> years. "You NEED me to
> be profitable so that I am around to continue to serve your
> needs" is a
> statement that I've ingrained in my sales reps. When
> you are not the "low
> priced spread" in an industry you are constantly faced with
> customers who
> admit that they really prefer your level of quality,
> service and attention,
> but keep on reminding you that somebody else is doing it
> "cheaper".
>
> I had a customer tell me that "I used to buy this model
> from XX for much
> less than you are charging me". When I told him that
> I then would recommend
> that he go back to that supplier and continue to purchase
> from him, the
> customer's response was "I can't....he's no longer in
> business!"
>
> Hmmmm. Wonder why he's out of business. Many hams
> don't understand that.
> Guy gets it!
>
> 73,
>
> Terry, W0FM
> K3 #474
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Guy Olinger K2AV [mailto:[hidden email]]
>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 10:34 AM
> To: Joe Subich, W4TV
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA 500
>
> There are a bunch of guys on this reflector, however decent
> and
> technically competent, that I would never want to run a
> business I had
> stock in. Decent folks, probably be great neighbors,
> and favored ham
> buddies, would trust my kids with them, but they would do
> what 85% of
> all startup businesses do, go bankrupt.
>
> There is a concept they are edging toward in their K3
> nit-picking, and
> it's called mil-spec. They just don't want to admit
> it.
>
> A company that makes mil-spec MUST charge for it. A
> company that
> allows construction options MUST charge for it. The
> screws themselves
> either add bucks to ALL of the products, OR options
> increase
> production complexity and therefore cost for the option.
>
> However embedded, LABOR is the major cost of a radio.
> Even the cost
> of a screw has labor embedded in it.
>
> There ARE mil-spec radios that exceed K3 specs. You
> can buy them.
> You can get a LOT of that mil-spec in a K3, but not
> all. Exactly what
> part of that "lot of a mil-spec" was a business decision.
>
> If Elecraft were to go bankrupt, I'm fairly convinced that
> would make
> some posters happy. But bankrupt would bring further
> development and
> features to a crashing halt. And who repairs K3's
> then? Who will
> line up a source for your stainless screws and make them
> available
> then.
>
> There's a real easy answer for the malcontents. Are
> you peeved? Put
> it up for sale right here. I've noticed that they
> sell REALLY fast,
> usually in a couple hours for most of the retail
> price. Then you can
> go to another reflector and complain about Yakencom.
> They'll be happy
> to have you back. They might even put you in an ad
> about how you
> switched back to Yakencom because you didn't like the
> screws.
>
> OR, you could go out and buy 4000 K3's worth of stainless
> steel
> screws, drop your day job, spend several thousand dollars
> on
> advertisements for your new stainless steel screw
> replacement service,
> charge four times the minimum wage for your assembly time
> plus screw
> cost, and then wait for the business and profits to roll in
> to pay
> your mortgage and grocery bill.
>
> Myself, I hope Elecraft keeps making SOUND BUSINESS
> DECISIONS. I
> already know they have the technical moxy and the most
> customer-centric policies in this business niche. At this
> point, for
> me personally, their greatest worth is that they stay in
> business and
> keep developing. I want them PROFITABLE so I get to
> keep them. I feel
> good about that because Elecraft was developing products
> and making a
> profit right through the worst recession since the great
> depression on
> a product line that is completely optional to everyday
> life.
>
> They must be doing SOMETHING right smack on dead center to
> have half
> of all the transceivers at WRTC and made it through these
> financial
> conditions.
>
> 73, Guy.
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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K2QI

Re: KPA 500

In reply to this post by Grant Youngman

Well, my apologies to all if I've managed to drag a thread into dark waters.
Sorry. I really was just enjoying the conversation. I should have learned
my lesson from the Knob debacle. Back to the cave I go...

James K2QI

On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 4:58 PM, Grant Youngman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Amen!! You know, maybe we should let Elecraft manage Elecraft?
>
> This same thread ran out weeks ago, with all the same information. You
> want to be an engineer or VP Sales? Send Elecraft a resume and ask for a
> freaking job! You want to tell Elecraft how to run their company, to manage
> your inability to deliver software that will allow you to press a button
> long or short enough, to blame K3 firmware for every piece of software you
> have installed on your lousy OS, or read the manual, or keep it from
> rusting? ... be an angel VC and convince them to let you invest enough
> money so you can run the place .. or just take a break.
>
> I suspect Elecraft would tell you to take a break. A useful thread (for
> some) has once again been turned to a crock ... by a bunch of would-be
> engineers and clueless (I'm being VERY kind) would-be marketing and sales
> types
>
> For the record, my K3 is not rusting. It works just like the it's supposed
> to.
>
> Good grief, guys .... I want to maintain my subscription to this list, but
> it's getting hard to do, given the continuously floating garbage ...
>
> Grant/NQ5T
>
>
> On Oct 19, 2010, at 12:21 PM, Giulio IW3HVB wrote:
>
> > I'm waiting for the "End of Thread" msg by Wayne....
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

--
73 de James K2QI
President UNARC/4U1UN
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--... ...-- -.. . .--- .- -- . ...

Jim Brown-10

Re: KPA 500

In reply to this post by K2QI

On 10/19/2010 1:01 PM, James Sarte wrote:
> why doesn't Elecraft just include stainless hardware with all
> future K3s?

That's a very valid question, and I'll bet that Wayne and Eric are
thinking about it (or may have already done so. It's EASY AND CHEAP to
make that decision at the mfg stage.

> At the very least, they can give you that option at ordering
> and charge for the difference.

Options increase the cost. As AB7E observed earlier in this tread, if
there's corrosion of the screws, there could likely be other issues of a
more serious nature inside the box. On the other hand, about six years
ago, I bought a used Ten Tec Titan power amp (built around 1980 or so)
from a KV4 who was the original owner. All the case screws looked pretty
rusty, but everything in the amp worked just fine (and still does).

> Maybe some of you guys don't care what you do with your money, but in this
> lousy economy, I can't justify spendingl 20 dollars for a 5 dollar bag of
> screws.

So go down to the hardware store and buy a box for $5 (or order from
McMaster-Carr). They are a very standard size. Substitute your labor
(and gasoline money) for Elecraft's. :)

73, Jim K9YC
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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: KPA 500 (SS Screws) END of Thread.

Administrator

In reply to this post by Giulio Pico - IW3HVB

Let's end this thread for now.

As a general note, we have used the exact same type of screw for all of
our products for the past 11+ years with few reports of problems. I live
within one mile of the coast her in California and never have seen any
rust on our products. Both Wayne and i frequently use them outdoors for
portable operation too.

Some time ago, a few our more tropical/high humidity users noted that
the external case crews could rust in their environment. We queried a
large number of our customers at that time and few saw this happen in
normal operation, so we thought it was an infrequent event. To cover
the extreme cases, we located stainless steel hardware and then had it
custom coated by the manufacturer to match our black cases. That's what
added the additional cost above what Jack quoted.

We'll certainly look into this some more for the regular products as we
do not want this to be an issue.

73, Eric WA6HHQ
Elecraft moderator, among m other duties.
(Must be a slow DX day today! ;-)

www.elecraft.com
----

On 10/19/2010 10:21 AM, Giulio IW3HVB wrote:
> I'm waiting for the "End of Thread" msg by Wayne....
>
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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: OT: Cost of "screws" END of thread

Administrator

In reply to this post by Ken Kopp-3

As noted in my prior posting - END of thread.

73, Eric
Elecraft Moderator

On 10/19/2010 10:45 AM, Ken Kopp wrote:

> There are always "hidden" costs, and one best be aware
> of them. The supplier of the SS screws to Elecraft most
> likely charged Elecraft a "Shipping and handling fee", and
> even that needs to be factored in.
>
> Even Rose's small in-home "business" has hidden costs!
> She buys shipping boxes, padded envelopes, mailing labels
> -and- the printer to print them, package sealing tape, plastic
> bags to keep the covers and cases clean, etc. Let's not
> forget the telephone and Internet costs, either. Oh, I forgot
> about the PayPal fees ... and the printer ... and the paper ...
> and file folders ... and the file cabinet ... and added lighting
> in her sewing room ... and the income tax software.
>
> The embroidery software cost just under $1500, and the total
> cost of her sewing machines and computers is about $14K.
>
> A trip to a west coast hamfest from the outback of Montana
> can easily cost $2000, and this is nothing compared to the
> cost of putting the Elecraft show on the road.
>
> Buying fabric stock requires a 230 mile round trip, with the
> accompanying vehicle costs. Even taking an order into
> town to the PO uses about three gallons of fuel. (;-)
>
> And, of course there's the cost of upkeep for the shipping
> and handling staff ... me. (:-)
>
> 73! Ken Kopp - K0PP
> [hidden email]
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: Re： KPA 500 END of Thread

Administrator

In reply to this post by Rick Dettinger-3

As noted in my prior posting - END of thread.

73, Eric
Elecraft Moderator
---

On 10/19/2010 11:04 AM, Rick Dettinger wrote:

> Yes, and the nature of the humidity. I don't know if there is
> actually salt in the air over the oceans, but my uncle was a
> commercial fisherman working off the Oregon and California coasts in
> the 1950s and '60's. When his AM marine band transceiver finally
> "retired", he gave it to me to use for parts. It had led a hard life
> at sea and there was not much that I considered useable inside. Most
> of the screws were corroded in place. Metal condenser plates
> (remember, this was in the '50's!) were mostly white. As a new
> novice, I was rather disappointed.
> If the case screws of my K3 rusted, I would be concerned about what
> might be happening inside the box. At least the old tube gear ran
> warm enough to dry out in use. Of course, any salt would remain.
> That could be a problem!
>
> 73,
>
> Rick Dettinger K7MW
>
>
>> Johnny, it must have a lot to do with the temperature AND humidity.
>> I live a few hundred yards from the Pacific ocean on the Oregon
>> coast listening to the pounding surf 24/7. The relative humidity in
>> the shack is always between 60 and 80%, yet I have no sign of
>> corrosion on any of my Elecraft gear.
>>
>> However, the temperature here on a really hot day is about 70 to 75F
>> and typical summer high temps are closer to 60F. In the winter high
>> temps usually in the 30's or 40's.
>>
>> It is wet here where the conifer forests grow right down to the
>> water's edge with lots of rain. It's said we Oregonians don't tan,
>> we rust. But none of my Elecraft gear has shown the slightest sign
>> of rust, nor do automobiles or other equipment left outdoors have
>> unusual corrosion issues.
>>
>> Ron AC7AC
> ______________________________________________________________
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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: Now screws, was Re: KPA 500 [END of Thread]

Administrator

In reply to this post by Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604

As noted in my prior posting - END of thread.

73, Eric
Elecraft Moderator

On 10/19/2010 11:57 AM, Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604 wrote:

> I do note that the insructions for the replacement of the screws is
> NOT on the website. I have the kit, and see that there are 113 pieces
> of 14 different size screws/nuts. $20. for that, and the instructions,
> strikes me as being a bargain.
>
> I haven't installed them yet, but we'll see how my K3 looks
> after 2 1/2 months on Pacific and Asian islands, and then 5 months on
> a wooden ship at sea.
>
> I've seen a K2, that lived in the Caribbean, with rusty screws (and that
> was in 2002), but neither of my K2's has any obvious rust and they've
> been to the Pacific and Indian Oceans and the Arabian Sea.
>
> 73, doug
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Jim Cox

Re: KPA 500

In reply to this post by K2QI

Yes, please end this thread. As usual the first post are ok and
information, then personal views, opinions drag on and on.

Jim K4JAF

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Sarte" <[hidden email]>
To: "Grant Youngman" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA 500

> Well, my apologies to all if I've managed to drag a thread into dark
> waters.
> Sorry. I really was just enjoying the conversation. I should have
> learned
> my lesson from the Knob debacle. Back to the cave I go...
>
> James K2QI
>
> On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 4:58 PM, Grant Youngman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Amen!! You know, maybe we should let Elecraft manage Elecraft?
>>
>> This same thread ran out weeks ago, with all the same information. You
>> want to be an engineer or VP Sales? Send Elecraft a resume and ask for a
>> freaking job! You want to tell Elecraft how to run their company, to
>> manage
>> your inability to deliver software that will allow you to press a button
>> long or short enough, to blame K3 firmware for every piece of software
>> you
>> have installed on your lousy OS, or read the manual, or keep it from
>> rusting? ... be an angel VC and convince them to let you invest enough
>> money so you can run the place .. or just take a break.
>>
>> I suspect Elecraft would tell you to take a break. A useful thread (for
>> some) has once again been turned to a crock ... by a bunch of would-be
>> engineers and clueless (I'm being VERY kind) would-be marketing and
>> sales
>> types
>>
>> For the record, my K3 is not rusting. It works just like the it's
>> supposed
>> to.
>>
>> Good grief, guys .... I want to maintain my subscription to this list,
>> but
>> it's getting hard to do, given the continuously floating garbage ...
>>
>> Grant/NQ5T
>>
>>
>> On Oct 19, 2010, at 12:21 PM, Giulio IW3HVB wrote:
>>
>> > I'm waiting for the "End of Thread" msg by Wayne....
>> >
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
>
>
> --
> 73 de James K2QI
> President UNARC/4U1UN
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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Johnny Siu

temperature and humidity

In reply to this post by AC7AC

Hi Ron,

Nice to hear from you.

Summer in Hong Kong is hot and the day time temperature is around 33C. During
the spring time, the humidity could be as high as 99%. We also suffer from
occasional tropical cyclone (hurrician in US) attact.

I live in the highest floor in a 50-storey apartment overlooking the Victoria
Harbour, Pearl of the Orient. The photo in my callsign under www.qrz.com gives
part of the scene looking outside from my apartment window. I will not discount
the fact that wind from the harbour could be salty though very present to enjoy.

The screws in all my K2 and other non elecraft gears did not show any sign of
rust as well.

I shall visit Osaka in Nov 2010 and join the http://apdxc.org and wonder whether
I could meet some of the Elecrafters in this forum.

cheers,

Johnny VR2XMC

----- 郵件原件 ----
寄件人﹕ Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]>
收件人﹕ [hidden email]
傳送日期﹕ 2010/10/19 (二) 11:31:08 PM
主題： Re: [Elecraft] Re： KPA 500

Johnny, it must have a lot to do with the temperature AND humidity. I live a few
hundred yards from the Pacific ocean on the Oregon coast listening to the
pounding surf 24/7. The relative humidity in the shack is always between 60 and
80%, yet I have no sign of corrosion on any of my Elecraft gear.

However, the temperature here on a really hot day is about 70 to 75F and typical
summer high temps are closer to 60F. In the winter high temps usually in the
30's or 40's.

It is wet here where the conifer forests grow right down to the water's edge
with lots of rain. It's said we Oregonians don't tan, we rust. But none of my
Elecraft gear has shown the slightest sign of rust, nor do automobiles or other
equipment left outdoors have unusual corrosion issues.

Ron AC7AC

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wayne burdick

Re: KAT500

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Stainless Steel Screws

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

Dave,
I have repaired a couple K2s that have lived in corrosive environments -
I recall one from the Houston, Texas area and another from Panama.
There were signs of corrosion on the exterior - all the case screws were
corroded and even the body of the BNC antenna jack and the exposed part
of the key jack.
In both cases, I expected to find similar conditions inside, but to my
surprise, the interior parts were just fine even though there are holes
in the K2 enclosure for options that were not installed.

I cannot say that the K3 will be immune from harm in a salt air
environment, but my experience with these K2s indicate that internal
damage will not be as great a problem as one could imagine.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/19/2010 2:00 PM, David Gilbert wrote:

> If you're
> exposing your K3 to an atmosphere malignant enough to corrode the screws
> it seems to me that you have bigger issues to worry about inside the
> rig. Whether the screws are corroding due to the combination of
> moisture and dissimilar metals (steel and aluminum), or due to the
> combination of moisture and corrosive ions (salt atmosphere, air
> pollution, etc), why wouldn't essentially the same thing be happening to
> the components and circuit boards?
>
> Maybe the stock screws should be thought of as a "fuse" (weakest link)
> to let you know that you're doing something wrong.
>
> Dave AB7E
>

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: Stainless Steel Screws

Administrator

Folks - Please, we ended this thread yesterday.

73, Eric
Elecraft List Moderator - Really! :-)
---

On 10/20/2010 10:00 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
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Merv Schweigert

Re: Stainless Steel Screws

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

I am one who purchased the SS screw kit and was happy with what I
received,
the cabinet screws are not some shiny SS off the shelf screws as some have
suggested. they are plated black, and also you receive most if not all
of the
interior fasteners and screws, washers etc. I would like to see you
find all those
parts and standoffs etc for 20 bucks in single pieces.

My K3 screws rusted in a couple months, Elecrafts fault? not at all,
its the
KH6 enviroment, I live in trade wind breeze and anything in the house
is rusted
in short order, replacing qppliances every 3 or 4 years is normal
unless you
buy SS.

When I replaced the hardware on mine I found the same as Don, nothing on
the inside was corrorded or rusted. All was like new. I keep the radio
covered
when not in use, its in a windowless room, no A/C or heat needed year
round.

I have several other radios in the shack, a couple Japanese and another
American,
and all the American radios screws rusted, the Japanese after 10 years
have not, so draw your own conclusions.
I have no gripe buying a SS kit for my enviroment, its part of Paradise
as I am
told with all other extreme expenses associated with island living.

73 Merv KH7C / K9FD Molokai Island Hawaii

> Dave,
> I have repaired a couple K2s that have lived in corrosive environments -
> I recall one from the Houston, Texas area and another from Panama.
> There were signs of corrosion on the exterior - all the case screws were
> corroded and even the body of the BNC antenna jack and the exposed part
> of the key jack.
> In both cases, I expected to find similar conditions inside, but to my
> surprise, the interior parts were just fine even though there are holes
> in the K2 enclosure for options that were not installed.
>
> I cannot say that the K3 will be immune from harm in a salt air
> environment, but my experience with these K2s indicate that internal
> damage will not be as great a problem as one could imagine.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 10/19/2010 2:00 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
>> If you're
>> exposing your K3 to an atmosphere malignant enough to corrode the screws
>> it seems to me that you have bigger issues to worry about inside the
>> rig. Whether the screws are corroding due to the combination of
>> moisture and dissimilar metals (steel and aluminum), or due to the
>> combination of moisture and corrosive ions (salt atmosphere, air
>> pollution, etc), why wouldn't essentially the same thing be happening to
>> the components and circuit boards?
>>
>> Maybe the stock screws should be thought of as a "fuse" (weakest link)
>> to let you know that you're doing something wrong.
>>
>> Dave AB7E
>>
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Merv Schweigert

Re: Stainless Steel Screws

In reply to this post by Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Sorry, thought it was the KPA-500 mutated post that was ended.
73 Merv KH7C / KH7C

> Folks - Please, we ended this thread yesterday.
>
> 73, Eric
> Elecraft List Moderator - Really! :-)
> ---
>
> On 10/20/2010 10:00 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> ______________________________________________________________
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N5GE

Re: KPA 500

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

On Tue, 19 Oct 2010 10:08:37 -0700, Jim Brown
<[hidden email]> wrote:

I've been in the Davis Mountains of TX for a couple of days.

How in the world did this topic evolve into a rant about stainless
screws?

Tom Childers, N5GE
Licensed since 1976
QCWA Life Member 35102

[hidden email]
http://www.n5ge.com
http://www.swotrc.net

> On 10/19/2010 6:35 AM, James Sarte wrote:
>> But, to charge 20 dollars for a bag of screws is a bit beyond me.
>
>Have you ever worked in a business? Did you work for free? Most people
>I know want to get paid for working, and you've got to pay benefits and
>taxes. There also must be a place for them to work, that you must buy
>or rent. Someone must count and pack those screws. Someone must
>inventory them. Someone must order them. It takes space to store them.
>The package they ship in costs something. Yes, the screws aren't big,
>but the package must be large enough to hold a label and not get lost in
>shipping. You've got to buy that package and inventory it. Someone must
>take your order and type up a mailing label and a packing list. Someone
>must ship them.
>
>Yes, it's only a bag of screws. Companies who ignore all of the above
>go out of business pretty quickly. I want a company that I buy
>something from to be there when I need them.
>
>73, Jim K9YC
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>Elecraft mailing list
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Amateur Radio Operator N5GE

Rick Dettinger-3

Re: KPA 500

I think Eric was on vacation.

Rick Dettinger K7MW

>
> I've been in the Davis Mountains of TX for a couple of days.
>
> How in the world did this topic evolve into a rant about stainless
> screws?
>
> Tom Childers, N5GE
> Licensed since 1976
> QCWA Life Member 35102
>

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