KPA100 R 19 R20 question

[oe9fwv]

while I am waiting for a replacement of J4 from Scott, I am looking at the
parts left after finishing the KPA100. I can see 2 pairs of R19 R20 resistors
in the box. They look identical to those on the board. I had the KPA100
upgrade kit, so 1 pair is clear, there must have been another pair packed to
my KPA100 in double quantity. The reason was probably a replacement for
problems with the formal type of resistor.
Now my question: when sorting the parts, I was not aware of this possible
problem and maybe mixed the different parts, so I am not sure if I built in the
correct resistor. From looking at them I cannot tell any difference. They look
exactly the same. Can I find a difference whith any measurement to identify
if I have by accident built in the wrong pair?


73! de Werner OE9FWV


--
Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to
reform.
-- Mark Twain


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[oe9fwv]

hi Gary,

On 23 Nov 2007 at 2:04, Gary Hvizdak wrote:

>     I don’t know answer off hand and would need to do quite a bit of
> research to provide you with the correct answer.  Having not yet built
> my KPA100 the only thing I can tell you is that some years ago one of
> Elecraft’s suppliers changed their manufacturing process which caused
> the resistors to be inductive.  I seem to recall Elecraft offered free
> replacements for a while.
>
>  
>
>     That’s about all that I know.  Instead of telling you anything
> incorrect, I’ll just leave it at that and leave the rest to an expert
> like W3FPR in the morning (after his coffee).  Until then, you
> probably can find an app note about it on Elecraft’s website.

thank you for your answer.
that's what I knew before. What I don't know is if the the inductive resistors
can be visually identified?
I have 3 pairs of R19 and R20, one pair built in, 2 pairs are "spare parts", but
I don't know if they are all from the good lot or not. They look exactly
identical.

73! de Werner
OE9FWV

--
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[Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy]

Werner,

The resistors might have different characteristics even though their ohmic
value is the same and they might look to be identical. Some years ago it was
reported on the List that the KPA100's output was low on some bands, and the
cause was believed to be that the manufacturer of R19 and R20 had switched
to supplying resistors that exhibited significant inductance. I believe that
a mod kit was subsequently released which included 'non-inductive' versions
of R19 and R20. It is possible that you have some of both types in your
collection.

Unless you have the test equipment which is capable of measuring the
inductance of a small coil (nH) shunted by a 3.6 ohm resistor, you could
measure the series resonant frequency of  each 'resistor' and a capacitor,
always using the same capacitor, my guess is that a 3300 pF capacitor would
be a suitable value for HF resonance. Obviously those resistors which are
'inductive' would resonate at a lower frequency than those resistors which
are supposedly not. A crude measurement but adequate for the purpose I would
think.

It is possible to deal with the resistors already installed without removing
them, but very much easier to remove them - but ONLY if you are having power
output problems with your KPA100 on some bands!! The truth of the matter is
that all of the six 2w resistors are involved in the feedback networks and
are suspects in any power 'droop' problem, and you have to isolate each part
when doing on-board measurements. My KPA100 purchased in 2003 came with
inductive resistors, but the gods were kind and its 'power droop' occurs
outside of the ham bands.

73,
Geoff
GM4ESD













----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Werner Furlan" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 5:58 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] KPA100 R 19 R20 question

> while I am waiting for a replacement of J4 from Scott, I am looking at the
> parts left after finishing the KPA100. I can see 2 pairs of R19 R20
> resistors
> in the box. They look identical to those on the board. I had the KPA100
> upgrade kit, so 1 pair is clear, there must have been another pair packed
> to
> my KPA100 in double quantity. The reason was probably a replacement for
> problems with the formal type of resistor.
> Now my question: when sorting the parts, I was not aware of this possible
> problem and maybe mixed the different parts, so I am not sure if I built
> in the
> correct resistor. From looking at them I cannot tell any difference. They
> look
> exactly the same. Can I find a difference whith any measurement to
> identify
> if I have by accident built in the wrong pair?
>
>
> 73! de Werner OE9FWV
>
>
> --
> Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to
> reform.
> -- Mark Twain
>
>
> Email powered by Pegasus Mail free at <http://www.pmail.com>
> Homepage: <http://www.qsl.net/oe9fwv/>
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>
>
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[Evert Bakker (PA2KW)]

Werner,

The inductive resistors are light-blue/grey.
I replaced mine as well. They should have a reddish-brown colour now.
Also a capacitor C31 should be replaced (was 0.033uF and should be 0.22 uF)

73's, Everet PA2KW



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[Don Wilhelm-4]

Werner,

If they all look the same, they are all good.  The old inductive
resistors had a light-blue body, the new ones have a red-brown body color.

I have mentioned many times that body color is not a good means of
identifying components, but for KPA100 R19 and R20, it is good for now -
if Elecraft changes the manufacturer of those parts, then the body color
is likely to change, but that has not happened yet with those parts.  
You have some spares (but you will not likely need them)

73,
Don W3FPR.

Dr. Werner Furlan wrote:

> hi Gary,
>
> On 23 Nov 2007 at 2:04, Gary Hvizdak wrote:
>
>  
>>     I don’t know answer off hand and would need to do quite a bit of
>> research to provide you with the correct answer.  Having not yet built
>> my KPA100 the only thing I can tell you is that some years ago one of
>> Elecraft’s suppliers changed their manufacturing process which caused
>> the resistors to be inductive.  I seem to recall Elecraft offered free
>> replacements for a while.
>>
>>  
>>
>>     That’s about all that I know.  Instead of telling you anything
>> incorrect, I’ll just leave it at that and leave the rest to an expert
>> like W3FPR in the morning (after his coffee).  Until then, you
>> probably can find an app note about it on Elecraft’s website.
>>    
>
> thank you for your answer.
> that's what I knew before. What I don't know is if the the inductive resistors
> can be visually identified?
> I have 3 pairs of R19 and R20, one pair built in, 2 pairs are "spare parts", but
> I don't know if they are all from the good lot or not. They look exactly
> identical.
>
> 73! de Werner
> OE9FWV
>
> --  
>  Hard work has a future payoff. Laziness pays off now.
>
>
>
> PGP-Key: <http://www.qsl.net/oe9fwv/furlan.asc>
> Fone [phone]
> Fax [phone]
> Mobile      [phone]
>
>
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>
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> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>
>
>  

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[oe9fwv]

hi Don and all who replied,

On 23 Nov 2007 at 8:30, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> If they all look the same, they are all good.  The old inductive
> resistors had a light-blue body, the new ones have a red-brown body
> color.

yes all are brown.

in the meantime I have nearly finished my KPA100, the only part missing is a
housing and crimp pins for the low power supply. (I am waiting for the spare
part)
But  I could already try the PA without this plug, and it works, but there must
be some problem with oscillation I think. It is only in SSB mode, not when I
tune or send CW.
In low power mode all is ok, when I turn power over 11 Watt, the PA draws
more than 18A when I whistle. The modulation reports I get describe it as
missing high frequencies. When I observe the amperemeter needle, it looks
very nervous, sometimes I have seen and heard it "vibrate".
Sometimes I have had a normal behaviour though, with 80W on my
calibrated LP100 Wattmeter and a good signal report. But this was only a
very short time. Most of the time I get this peaks of output up to 150 W on
the LP100 peak meter.

I have now put the PA in the EC2 with the KAT100. For allignment and
testing I have had it mounted besides the K2 and connected it directly.

73! de Werner
OE9FWV


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[Don Wilhelm-4]

Werner,

The KPA100 does not distinguish between CW and SSB - input RF is input
RF and it operates in a linear curve with a gain of approximately 10 dB,
so 10 watts in will produce 100 watts out and 2 watts in will produce 20
watts out and everything proportionally in  between.

How does your base K2 behave in SSB mode?  Does it produce 10 to 15
watts output under similar conditions?

I believe your problem may be either an ALC  problem on the KSB2 board
or an RF feedback situation.

First, I need to ask if you have any mods to the KSB2 board?  
Specifically the KI6WX Increased Gain mod.  If that mod is present and
the KPA100 is added, the KSB2 ALC circuits may be overdriven.  There is
a fix that can be added, or the mod can be removed to restore normal
operation.

Even without the KI6WX mod, there still may be a problem in the ALC area
of the KSB2 board, but it will likely be found to be a bad solder
connection or an incorrect component (check the resistor values).  How
does the LED Bargraph behave when the problem arises?  If it goes full
scale in RF mode and lights many bars in ALC mode, then check the KSB2
board ALC section carefully.

There is also the chance that you have RF feedback into your microphone
circuits.  That will not usually happen if you operate into a dummy
load, but will show up when you are connected to an antenna.  If this is
the case, the proper cure is to correct the RF feedback situation at the
antenna, but in difficult situations, ferrites on the microphone lines
can help somewhat.  If you have a data mode/soundcard interface
connected, remove it and check without it.  The interface and its
cabling produce additional cables and may be more susceptible to RF
pickup than a microphone cable alone.  You may also want to ground the
shell of your microphone jack if you have not done that already.

Let us know if any of this helps.

73,
Don W3FPR

Dr. Werner Furlan wrote:

> in the meantime I have nearly finished my KPA100, the only part missing is a
> housing and crimp pins for the low power supply. (I am waiting for the spare
> part)
> But  I could already try the PA without this plug, and it works, but there must
> be some problem with oscillation I think. It is only in SSB mode, not when I
> tune or send CW.
> In low power mode all is ok, when I turn power over 11 Watt, the PA draws
> more than 18A when I whistle. The modulation reports I get describe it as
> missing high frequencies. When I observe the amperemeter needle, it looks
> very nervous, sometimes I have seen and heard it "vibrate".
> Sometimes I have had a normal behaviour though, with 80W on my
> calibrated LP100 Wattmeter and a good signal report. But this was only a
> very short time. Most of the time I get this peaks of output up to 150 W on
> the LP100 peak meter.
>
> I have now put the PA in the EC2 with the KAT100. For allignment and
> testing I have had it mounted besides the K2 and connected it directly.
>
>  

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[oe9fwv]

hi Don,

some questions I can answer now, some I have to look at in the "lab".

On 27 Nov 2007 at 6:20, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> The KPA100 does not distinguish between CW and SSB - input RF is input
> RF and it operates in a linear curve with a gain of approximately 10
> dB, so 10 watts in will produce 100 watts out and 2 watts in will
> produce 20 watts out and everything proportionally in  between.

ok. Looks like my problem is only in SSB mode.

> How does your base K2 behave in SSB mode?  Does it produce 10 to 15
> watts output under similar conditions?

yes it does. The base K2 has a good SSB signal and works fine all over the
range of 1-15 Watts (10W on 10m Band)

> I believe your problem may be either an ALC  problem on the KSB2 board
> or an RF feedback situation.

both seems possible to me.

> First, I need to ask if you have any mods to the KSB2 board?  

yes - I have modifications. I have made all modifications recommended in
this pdf:
http://www.qrpproject.de/Media/pdf/ZusammenfassungMods.pdf

it is in german, but I think you can understand it without knowledge of
german when you see the circuit diagrams.

> Specifically the KI6WX Increased Gain mod.  If that mod is present and
> the KPA100 is added, the KSB2 ALC circuits may be overdriven.  There
> is a fix that can be added, or the mod can be removed to restore
> normal operation.

I would like to make a fix if necessary, without loosing the good modulation
in qrp SSB.

> Even without the KI6WX mod, there still may be a problem in the ALC
> area of the KSB2 board, but it will likely be found to be a bad solder
> connection or an incorrect component (check the resistor values).  How
> does the LED Bargraph behave when the problem arises?  If it goes full
> scale in RF mode and lights many bars in ALC mode, then check the KSB2
> board ALC section carefully.

would this also be in QRP mode?
 

> There is also the chance that you have RF feedback into your
> microphone circuits.  That will not usually happen if you operate into
> a dummy load, but will show up when you are connected to an antenna.
> If this is the case, the proper cure is to correct the RF feedback
> situation at the antenna, but in difficult situations, ferrites on the
> microphone lines can help somewhat.  If you have a data mode/soundcard
> interface connected, remove it and check without it.  The interface
> and its cabling produce additional cables and may be more susceptible
> to RF pickup than a microphone cable alone.  You may also want to
> ground the shell of your microphone jack if you have not done that
> already.

I'll check it again with sending into a dummy load.
I'll also check it without the EA3BLQ digital board.
What do you mean by grounding the shell of the microphone shell?
Is it on the K2 or on the microphone cable?

I have another question about S-meter calibration with the Elecraft s-meter
calibrator. Do you set the S0-S9 limits with preamp enabled or disabled?

73! de Werner
OE9FWV

--  
Pas de panique, Ca sera pire.



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[Don Wilhelm-4]

Werner,

That link pointed me to a page that includes the KI6WX Increased Gain
Mod as well as a few other changes to the KSB2 board (increased
compression, etc.).

The Increased Gain Mod alone may be your problem.  If you are to use
that with the KPA100, make the following additional changes to the KSB2
board:
1) Increase the value of R9 to 15k
2) Cut the trace (on the top of the board) between P1 pin 6 and the base
of Q1.
3) Add a 1k resistor between P1 pin 6 and the base of Q1 - note that
this is a tight squeeze for a 1/4 watt resistor, but it does fit - you
may also use a 1/8 watt resistor or an SMD resistor if you have one
available.

Make the above changes and then test again - it may correct all your
problem.

The Increased Gain Mod will not show this problem at QRP.  It only shows
up when the gain of the KPA100 is added to the RF transmit chain.

Grounding the shell of the Microphone connector is on the K2 front
panel.  It can be accomplished without disassembling the front panel.  
Remove the left side panel and you can access the side of the microphone
jack.  Scrape a bit of the solder mask material from an area near the
mic jack to expose some of the copper (and tin that area).  Solder a
short wire onto the shell of the mic jack (this takes a lot of heat, so
use a larger iron or a high heat setting) and also onto the copper
ground plane of the front panel.  It is a little easier if you
disassemble the front panel board from its metal housing, so you may
take your choice of how to proceed.

73,
Don W3FPR


Dr. Werner Furlan wrote:

> hi Don,
>
> some questions I can answer now, some I have to look at in the "lab".
>
> On 27 Nov 2007 at 6:20, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>
>  
>> The KPA100 does not distinguish between CW and SSB - input RF is input
>> RF and it operates in a linear curve with a gain of approximately 10
>> dB, so 10 watts in will produce 100 watts out and 2 watts in will
>> produce 20 watts out and everything proportionally in  between.
>>    
>
> ok. Looks like my problem is only in SSB mode.
>
>  
>> How does your base K2 behave in SSB mode?  Does it produce 10 to 15
>> watts output under similar conditions?
>>    
>
> yes it does. The base K2 has a good SSB signal and works fine all over the
> range of 1-15 Watts (10W on 10m Band)
>
>  
>> I believe your problem may be either an ALC  problem on the KSB2 board
>> or an RF feedback situation.
>>    
>
> both seems possible to me.
>
>  
>> First, I need to ask if you have any mods to the KSB2 board?  
>>    
>
> yes - I have modifications. I have made all modifications recommended in
> this pdf:
> http://www.qrpproject.de/Media/pdf/ZusammenfassungMods.pdf
>
> it is in german, but I think you can understand it without knowledge of
> german when you see the circuit diagrams.
>
>  
>> Specifically the KI6WX Increased Gain mod.  If that mod is present and
>> the KPA100 is added, the KSB2 ALC circuits may be overdriven.  There
>> is a fix that can be added, or the mod can be removed to restore
>> normal operation.
>>    
>
> I would like to make a fix if necessary, without loosing the good modulation
> in qrp SSB.
>
>  
>> Even without the KI6WX mod, there still may be a problem in the ALC
>> area of the KSB2 board, but it will likely be found to be a bad solder
>> connection or an incorrect component (check the resistor values).  How
>> does the LED Bargraph behave when the problem arises?  If it goes full
>> scale in RF mode and lights many bars in ALC mode, then check the KSB2
>> board ALC section carefully.
>>    
>
> would this also be in QRP mode?
>  
>  
>> There is also the chance that you have RF feedback into your
>> microphone circuits.  That will not usually happen if you operate into
>> a dummy load, but will show up when you are connected to an antenna.
>> If this is the case, the proper cure is to correct the RF feedback
>> situation at the antenna, but in difficult situations, ferrites on the
>> microphone lines can help somewhat.  If you have a data mode/soundcard
>> interface connected, remove it and check without it.  The interface
>> and its cabling produce additional cables and may be more susceptible
>> to RF pickup than a microphone cable alone.  You may also want to
>> ground the shell of your microphone jack if you have not done that
>> already.
>>    
>
> I'll check it again with sending into a dummy load.
> I'll also check it without the EA3BLQ digital board.
> What do you mean by grounding the shell of the microphone shell?
> Is it on the K2 or on the microphone cable?
>
> I have another question about S-meter calibration with the Elecraft s-meter
> calibrator. Do you set the S0-S9 limits with preamp enabled or disabled?
>
> 73! de Werner
> OE9FWV
>
> --  
> Pas de panique, Ca sera pire.
>
>
>
> PGP-Key: <http://www.qsl.net/oe9fwv/furlan.asc>
> Fone [phone]
> Fax [phone]
> Mobile      [phone]
>
>
>
>
>  

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[oe9fwv]

hi Don,

I have been quite successful yesterday thanks to your suggestions.
The major advance was grounding the microphone shell. I did it from the left
side with a piece of desoldering braid and a lot of heat. This cured most of
the distortion in my signal and all of the wiggle of the microphone shell I had
noticed before.

Next step was modification of the SSB board. I had no 15k resistor at hand
but one at 5k so I put it in series with the existing 10k resistor, the resistor
between Q1 and pin 6 of P1 is mounted "elevated style" with one lead very
short at P1 the body  60° up and a longer lead to Q1 going down again. (I
had no 1/8 W resistor.)

The last part was the power supply.
I had a clear signal on 80m but my buddies reported some clipping on 20m
and 10m at high power. I had attached the low power cable to the main 12V
supply of my station, and the high power supply to a different 20A PS. This
turned out to cause the problem - probably a ground loop with the antenna
system.
When I connected both 12V lines into the 20A power supply I had a good
signal on all bands (at least it sounds good in my monitoring receiver)

Test on air will follow, but I think everything is working now.

Thanks a lot,

73! de Werner
OE9FWV



On 27 Nov 2007 at 11:13, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> That link pointed me to a page that includes the KI6WX Increased Gain
> Mod as well as a few other changes to the KSB2 board (increased
> compression, etc.).
>
> The Increased Gain Mod alone may be your problem.  If you are to use
> that with the KPA100, make the following additional changes to the
> KSB2 board: 1) Increase the value of R9 to 15k 2) Cut the trace (on
> the top of the board) between P1 pin 6 and the base of Q1. 3) Add a 1k
> resistor between P1 pin 6 and the base of Q1 - note that this is a
> tight squeeze for a 1/4 watt resistor, but it does fit - you may also
> use a 1/8 watt resistor or an SMD resistor if you have one available.
>
> Make the above changes and then test again - it may correct all your
> problem.
>
> The Increased Gain Mod will not show this problem at QRP.  It only
> shows up when the gain of the KPA100 is added to the RF transmit
> chain.
>
> Grounding the shell of the Microphone connector is on the K2 front
> panel.  It can be accomplished without disassembling the front panel. 
> Remove the left side panel and you can access the side of the
> microphone jack.  Scrape a bit of the solder mask material from an
> area near the mic jack to expose some of the copper (and tin that
> area).  Solder a short wire onto the shell of the mic jack (this takes
> a lot of heat, so use a larger iron or a high heat setting) and also
> onto the copper ground plane of the front panel.  It is a little
> easier if you disassemble the front panel board from its metal
> housing, so you may take your choice of how to proceed.

--
"Outside of a dog, a man's best friend is a book.
Inside of a dog it is too dark to read." Groucho Marx



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