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[KPA500] Feature Request

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Joe Word

[KPA500] Feature Request

[KPA500] It would be great if a front panel light would stay on when
the front power switch is off and the back switch is on; I keep
forgetting to turn it off. The STBY amber led would be good.

Joe N9VX
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hf4me

[KPA500] Rear power switch thread

I don't have a KPA500 and wondering what the deal is with turning off the
back power switch. Seems to me that if is was to be turned off every time
that it would have been placed on the front. I don't want to have to go
around the back of my station every time I get up and leave. Does it say in
the manual to turn it off? Is there a difference in using that switch vs.
turning off "power strip" feeding it? This topic has been going on for a
while. What gives?

73, de Jim KG0KP

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Word" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 7:44 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] [KPA500] Feature Request

> [KPA500] It would be great if a front panel light would stay on when
> the front power switch is off and the back switch is on; I keep
> forgetting to turn it off. The STBY amber led would be good.
>
> Joe N9VX
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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Mark Stennett

Re: [KPA500] Rear power switch thread

Here in Texas we get a lot of lightning storms that wreak havoc on our
electrical grid. In the 12 years I've lived here, I have lost 2
televisions, a microwave and a range to lightning related power issues.

I physically disconnect my K Line when not in use.

On 11/29/2011 10:26 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> Like the K3, the POWER switch on the KPA500 requires that mains voltage be
> applied so the processor and front panel logic is "live". The difference is
> that rear panel switch on the KPA500. It may be left on indefinitely. Like
> the K3, there is a very small parasitic power drain required to keep the
> front panel logic live so the front panel power switch will operate.
>
> It sounds like some Hams are taking the concept of keeping all parasitic
> power drains in their homes to the minimum: unplugging TV sets, microwaves,
> (newer) washing machines, etc., when they aren't actually in use to avoid
> this parasitic drain. It does add up and totals a significant amount of the
> electrical power demand, nationally. I would assume they are unplugging the
> K3 and any other similar Ham gear as well.
>
> Personally, I simply kill the main supply power line to the station. That
> does the same thing with one switch.
>
> 73,
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> I don't have a KPA500 and wondering what the deal is with turning off the
> back power switch. Seems to me that if is was to be turned off every time
> that it would have been placed on the front. I don't want to have to go
> around the back of my station every time I get up and leave. Does it say in
>
> the manual to turn it off? Is there a difference in using that switch vs.
> turning off "power strip" feeding it? This topic has been going on for a
> while. What gives?
>
> 73, de Jim KG0KP
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>

Joe Word

Re: [KPA500] Feature Request

In reply to this post by Joe Word

> Personally, I simply kill the main supply power line to the station. That
> does the same thing with one switch.
Answer: I also kill the power to the station, but I run the amp on
240v and have no power switch.

>Here in Texas we get a lot of lightning storms that wreak havoc on our
>electrical grid. In the 12 years I've lived here, I have lost 2
>televisions, a microwave and a range to lightning related power issues.
Answer: I also unplug in warm weather, but in the winter I do not.

The amp is slightly warm with the back switch on.

I might add, I love the amp, it's one of the best pieces of equipment
I have ever owned!

Joe N9VX

On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 8:44 PM, Joe Word <[hidden email]> wrote:
> [KPA500] It would be great if a front panel light would stay on when
> the front power switch is off and the back switch is on; I keep
> forgetting to turn it off. The STBY amber led would be good.
>
> Joe N9VX
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Oliver Dröse

Re: [KPA500] Rear power switch thread

In reply to this post by Mark Stennett

Hi Ron,

the arguments are told over and over again ("it is like a computer, etc.")
for the K3 and KPA500. Still I do not see WHY it is possible with every
other transceiver and PA on earth to simply shut down power (disconnecting
from mains) without first switching it off and without any possible
problems? They use the same "computer technique" inside ...

Just curious. ;-))

73, Olli - DH8BQA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KPA500] Rear power switch thread

> Just to be clear - the Elecraft equipment should be turned off using the
> front panel switch *before* it is disconnected from the mains supply so
> the
> logic system can do a proper shut-down. You can get away with "pulling the
> plug" much of the time, but sooner or later you'll catch the logic in the
> process do doing something critical - writing data to memory, etc. - and
> will end up with scrambled data. That can be corrected by reloading the
> firmware, but it's a hassle easily avoided by powering down with the front
> panel switch first.
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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>
> -----
> eMail ist virenfrei.
> Von AVG uberpruft - www.avg.de
> Version: 10.0.1411 / Virendatenbank: 2092/4046 - Ausgabedatum: 29.11.2011
>

David Herring-3

Re: [KPA500] Rear power switch thread

Olli,

This is a bit of an oversimplification, but I think it will convey the point good enough to address your very valid question without getting into what could otherwise be a very long answer.

On most other rigs on the planet, the settings are dictated by the position of the knobs and switches. Pull the plug on them and whatever computing faculties are present in the rig will simply reboot their software and continue on as normal the next time power is applied.

The K3 is more software defined than that. The settings are NOT necessarily dictated by the position of the knobs and switches. The settings are defined by what's been stored in memory, which is a result of the last change in knob and switch position, not necessarily where the knob or switch is now.

When you power down the K3 using the front panel power button, this sends an instruction to the computer to save all this information in an orderly and proper manner for next time, and then power off.

When you pull the plug, the computer in the K3 doesn't get the opportunity to save this stuff out in an orderly fashion. 99% of the time it's no problem. But pull the plug while the computer happens to be doing a routine save of this information, so that not all gets saved or saved properly (as an example), and you could wind up with a collection of settings that are inconsistent or self-contradicting. At that point, when you power on next time the computer hasn't got a hope of figuring out what to do. Your rig has just become hosed. You'll need to reset everything back to a generic state and start over.

I don't have first hand knowledge of other SDR rigs, but I imagine Elecraft is not the only one with this "feature." (I don't call it a problem because it isn't...it's exactly how the architecture is designed to work)

I hope that helps.

Dave
AH6TD

On Nov 30, 2011, at 12:35 PM, Oliver Dröse wrote:

> Hi Ron,
>
> the arguments are told over and over again ("it is like a computer, etc.")
> for the K3 and KPA500. Still I do not see WHY it is possible with every
> other transceiver and PA on earth to simply shut down power (disconnecting
> from mains) without first switching it off and without any possible
> problems? They use the same "computer technique" inside ...
>
> Just curious. ;-))
>
> 73, Olli - DH8BQA
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 4:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KPA500] Rear power switch thread
>
>
>> Just to be clear - the Elecraft equipment should be turned off using the
>> front panel switch *before* it is disconnected from the mains supply so
>> the
>> logic system can do a proper shut-down. You can get away with "pulling the
>> plug" much of the time, but sooner or later you'll catch the logic in the
>> process do doing something critical - writing data to memory, etc. - and
>> will end up with scrambled data. That can be corrected by reloading the
>> firmware, but it's a hassle easily avoided by powering down with the front
>> panel switch first.
>>
>> Ron AC7AC
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>>
>> -----
>> eMail ist virenfrei.
>> Von AVG uberpruft - www.avg.de
>> Version: 10.0.1411 / Virendatenbank: 2092/4046 - Ausgabedatum: 29.11.2011
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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hf4me

Re: [KPA500] Rear power switch thread

In reply to this post by Oliver Dröse

Try unplugging from the wall your PC repeatedly without even shutting down
your programs you have running and see how long it takes to cause problems.

73, de Jim KG0KP

----- Original Message -----
From: "Oliver Dröse" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KPA500] Rear power switch thread

> Hi Ron,
>
> the arguments are told over and over again ("it is like a computer, etc.")
> for the K3 and KPA500. Still I do not see WHY it is possible with every
> other transceiver and PA on earth to simply shut down power (disconnecting
> from mains) without first switching it off and without any possible
> problems? They use the same "computer technique" inside ...
>
> Just curious. ;-))
>
> 73, Olli - DH8BQA
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 4:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KPA500] Rear power switch thread
>
>
>> Just to be clear - the Elecraft equipment should be turned off using the
>> front panel switch *before* it is disconnected from the mains supply so
>> the
>> logic system can do a proper shut-down. You can get away with "pulling
>> the
>> plug" much of the time, but sooner or later you'll catch the logic in the
>> process do doing something critical - writing data to memory, etc. - and
>> will end up with scrambled data. That can be corrected by reloading the
>> firmware, but it's a hassle easily avoided by powering down with the
>> front
>> panel switch first.
>>
>> Ron AC7AC
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>>
>> -----
>> eMail ist virenfrei.
>> Von AVG uberpruft - www.avg.de
>> Version: 10.0.1411 / Virendatenbank: 2092/4046 - Ausgabedatum: 29.11.2011
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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Ross Primrose N4RP

Re: [KPA500] Rear power switch thread

In reply to this post by David Herring-3

On 11/30/2011 6:07 PM, David Herring wrote:
> Olli,
>
> On most other rigs on the planet, the settings are dictated by the position of the knobs and switches. Pull the plug on them and whatever computing faculties are present in the rig will simply reboot their software and continue on as normal the next time power is applied.

Hogwash, at least with the current/recent rigs from ALL the major
players. Many of the controls on these radios, just like the K3, are
rotary encoders or push buttons that have no 'position'. When the radios
start up, they go back to where they were because they stored the
operating conditions IMMEDIATELY when changes were made. For whatever
reason, Elecraft has decided NOT to do things that way, and things can
get screwed up if a K3 loses power without being powered off with the
power switch. A major shortcoming in my opinion, especially for a radio
targeted at the DXpedition market, where continuity of power is often
questionable....

73, Ross N4RP

>
> The K3 is more software defined than that. The settings are NOT necessarily dictated by the position of the knobs and switches. The settings are defined by what's been stored in memory, which is a result of the last change in knob and switch position, not necessarily where the knob or switch is now.
>
> When you power down the K3 using the front panel power button, this sends an instruction to the computer to save all this information in an orderly and proper manner for next time, and then power off.
>
> When you pull the plug, the computer in the K3 doesn't get the opportunity to save this stuff out in an orderly fashion. 99% of the time it's no problem. But pull the plug while the computer happens to be doing a routine save of this information, so that not all gets saved or saved properly (as an example), and you could wind up with a collection of settings that are inconsistent or self-contradicting. At that point, when you power on next time the computer hasn't got a hope of figuring out what to do. Your rig has just become hosed. You'll need to reset everything back to a generic state and start over.
>
> I don't have first hand knowledge of other SDR rigs, but I imagine Elecraft is not the only one with this "feature." (I don't call it a problem because it isn't...it's exactly how the architecture is designed to work)
>
> I hope that helps.
>
> Dave
> AH6TD
>
>
>
> On Nov 30, 2011, at 12:35 PM, Oliver Dröse wrote:
>
>> Hi Ron,
>>
>> the arguments are told over and over again ("it is like a computer, etc.")
>> for the K3 and KPA500. Still I do not see WHY it is possible with every
>> other transceiver and PA on earth to simply shut down power (disconnecting
>> from mains) without first switching it off and without any possible
>> problems? They use the same "computer technique" inside ...
>>
>> Just curious. ;-))
>>
>> 73, Olli - DH8BQA
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ron D'Eau Claire"<[hidden email]>
>> To:<[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 4:42 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KPA500] Rear power switch thread
>>
>>
>>> Just to be clear - the Elecraft equipment should be turned off using the
>>> front panel switch *before* it is disconnected from the mains supply so
>>> the
>>> logic system can do a proper shut-down. You can get away with "pulling the
>>> plug" much of the time, but sooner or later you'll catch the logic in the
>>> process do doing something critical - writing data to memory, etc. - and
>>> will end up with scrambled data. That can be corrected by reloading the
>>> firmware, but it's a hassle easily avoided by powering down with the front
>>> panel switch first.
>>>
>>> Ron AC7AC
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>>>
>>> -----
>>> eMail ist virenfrei.
>>> Von AVG uberpruft - www.avg.de
>>> Version: 10.0.1411 / Virendatenbank: 2092/4046 - Ausgabedatum: 29.11.2011
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
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--
FCC Section 97.313(a) “At all times, an amateur station must use the minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications.”

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Andrew McNamara

Re: [KPA500] Rear power switch thread

>Hogwash, at least with the current/recent rigs from ALL the major
>players. Many of the controls on these radios, just like the K3, are
>rotary encoders or push buttons that have no 'position'. When the radios
>start up, they go back to where they were because they stored the
>operating conditions IMMEDIATELY when changes were made.

The issue is that if you power off the radio as it updates the
non-volatile memory, you can corrupt the memory. This is just as true for
Icoms, Yaesus as the K3. The window in which this can happen is very,
very small, but it does happen (the subject comes up often enough on
the corresponding Icom and Yaesu mailing lists).

What's worse is that most modern radios are "soft calibrated", so you
can end up losing your calibration as well. Not such a big problem with
the K3, since you can recalibrate it yourself, just inconvenient.

There's another related problem - power doesn't just go away, it
decays. Without very careful hardware design, the CPU "goes crazy" as the
voltage drops and can write to random locations (modern microcontrollers,
like the PIC used in the K3, have some built-in protection against this).

BTW, radios (and appliances) don't usually write their settings out to
non-volatile storage with every button push and knob twiddle - the write
is usually deferred for a short period. There are three reasons for this:

- writing to flash memory is slow; writing immediately would make
the radio sluggish.

- flash has a limited write-cycle life; by deferring the update for a
short time, you get to merge or skip updates due to later activity
by the user making the earlier update superfluous.

- the more frequently you write, the more likely you are to win the
"back to the factory for recalibration" lottery.

None of this is unique to amateur transceivers; it applies to just about
every modern appliance to some degree or other, although it can be
mitigated in various ways (put calibration in a different flash page,
retain backup copies, etc). Turn your flat-screen TV off at the wall
often enough, and you may well scrag it too (assuming the switch-mode
power supply survives the experience).

--
Andrew McNamara - VK2TAN
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Richard Fjeld

Re: [KPA500] Rear power switch thread

In reply to this post by hf4me

The statement below caught my eye, and I thought I would comment FWIW. A few decades ago, the part of the city I lived in had a momentary open on the power line. When power came back on a moment later, it had a high voltage spike that took out many, many, colored TV sets (and other things) back when color TV sets were relatively new and expensive.

I thought of my ham equipment, so I got a metal box and mounted a 110 Volt relay on it that fed some outlets attached to boxes on both sides. I bring up the relay with a momentary push switch. The relay then locks up to it's own contacts. To release the relay, I press another momentary switch to open the path to the coil.

This way, I plug in all equipment I want to protect to the box. If a momentary open hit occurs, the relay drops and powers off all my equipment (which has happened). It is my master power switch as well.
I power off all my equipment before I release the relay to reduce contact arcing when I re-operate it. The original relay is still in use.

Dick, n0ce

_________________________________________________________________
Personally, I simply kill the main supply power line to the station. That
> does the same thing with one switch.
>
> 73,
>
> Ron AC7AC

Richard Fjeld, n0ce
[hidden email]
E=IR, it's the law.
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Oliver Dröse

Re: [KPA500] Rear power switch thread

In reply to this post by David Herring-3

Dave,

thanks for taking the time trying to explain it. I know what actually
happens and why one should first power of the radio before cutting the
lines. Nevertheless Elecraft is not the only one using encoders but still
they are the only ones with a requirement for that procedure. This has
nothing to do with being an SDR.

Lets stay at one defined example, the VFO. Everybody is using an encoder
here, whatever brand it is. Still when I cut power off my Icom (and all
other rigs I know of) it always comes back to the last used frequency &
mode. If I just cut power from my K3 it never comes back to the same
frequency! It usually is one in the same band but not the last used one.

So how do others do it? I imagine they simply write the current frequency
into memory after probably a few milliseconds of no VFO move. Elecraft could
do the same (actually they are doing it when powering down the rig).

So my question is simple: Why don't they do it? What are the reasons behind?
Not enough time while working down the operations code? A limitation of the
PICs used as the central brain (the other brands use bigger/faster
processors)?

Don't get me wrong, I really like my K3 & KPA500 and have no problems at all
with how they work. Nevertheless I am curios to know the reasons. Might be
'cause I'm into (only a little) programming myself and want to understand
other guys logics and learn something, too. ;-))

73, Olli - DH8BQA
http://www.dh8bqa.de

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Herring" <[hidden email]>
To: "Oliver Dröse" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 12:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KPA500] Rear power switch thread

Olli,

This is a bit of an oversimplification, but I think it will convey the point
good enough to address your very valid question without getting into what
could otherwise be a very long answer.

On most other rigs on the planet, the settings are dictated by the position
of the knobs and switches. Pull the plug on them and whatever computing
faculties are present in the rig will simply reboot their software and
continue on as normal the next time power is applied.

The K3 is more software defined than that. The settings are NOT necessarily
dictated by the position of the knobs and switches. The settings are
defined by what's been stored in memory, which is a result of the last
change in knob and switch position, not necessarily where the knob or switch
is now.

When you power down the K3 using the front panel power button, this sends an
instruction to the computer to save all this information in an orderly and
proper manner for next time, and then power off.

When you pull the plug, the computer in the K3 doesn't get the opportunity
to save this stuff out in an orderly fashion. 99% of the time it's no
problem. But pull the plug while the computer happens to be doing a routine
save of this information, so that not all gets saved or saved properly (as
an example), and you could wind up with a collection of settings that are
inconsistent or self-contradicting. At that point, when you power on next
time the computer hasn't got a hope of figuring out what to do. Your rig
has just become hosed. You'll need to reset everything back to a generic
state and start over.

I don't have first hand knowledge of other SDR rigs, but I imagine Elecraft
is not the only one with this "feature." (I don't call it a problem because
it isn't...it's exactly how the architecture is designed to work)

I hope that helps.

Dave
AH6TD

On Nov 30, 2011, at 12:35 PM, Oliver Dröse wrote:

> Hi Ron,
>
> the arguments are told over and over again ("it is like a computer, etc.")
> for the K3 and KPA500. Still I do not see WHY it is possible with every
> other transceiver and PA on earth to simply shut down power (disconnecting
> from mains) without first switching it off and without any possible
> problems? They use the same "computer technique" inside ...
>
> Just curious. ;-))
>
> 73, Olli - DH8BQA
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 4:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KPA500] Rear power switch thread
>
>
>> Just to be clear - the Elecraft equipment should be turned off using the
>> front panel switch *before* it is disconnected from the mains supply so
>> the
>> logic system can do a proper shut-down. You can get away with "pulling
>> the
>> plug" much of the time, but sooner or later you'll catch the logic in the
>> process do doing something critical - writing data to memory, etc. - and
>> will end up with scrambled data. That can be corrected by reloading the
>> firmware, but it's a hassle easily avoided by powering down with the
>> front
>> panel switch first.
>>
>> Ron AC7AC
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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Rick WA6NHC

Re: [KPA500] Rear power switch thread

Responses woven within; trimmed for brevity.

Rick WA6NHC

-----Original Message-----
From: Oliver Dröse

Nevertheless Elecraft is not the only one using encoders but still
they are the only ones with a requirement for that procedure. This has
nothing to do with being an SDR.

* It has to do with Elecraft being more 'up front' and honest about how
* their design is managed. Other companies simply don't tell you all of
* internal workings (or as much) and shrug their corporate shoulders if
* the memory gets hashed during a power loss.
*
* Try complaining to say, MicroSoft if you pull the plug instead of an
* orderly shutdown. If they answer at all, they'll say "Don't do that."

If I just cut power from my K3 it never comes back to the same
frequency! It usually is one in the same band but not the last used one.

* Because, as stated, the memory was not written before power removal. For
* the sake of performance (CPU activity), they chose this way.
*
* The graceful power down writes MANY things into the memory (mode, filters
* bandwidth etc.). A rude power off doesn't allow this and Elecraft
* warns you of this 'chance occurrence' (it doesn't happen all the time).

So how do others do it? I imagine they simply write the current frequency
into memory after probably a few milliseconds of no VFO move. Elecraft could

do the same (actually they are doing it when powering down the rig).

* I'll remind you that no other current rig performs as well. It's the
* small things that add up to make the difference. Elecraft is not willing
* to give up one small portion that might sacrifice performance. I simply
* power off, then leave the power supply on, so it isn't an issue. A power
* failure when I'm not at the shack then leaves no issue other than small
* parasitic drain (and I run other radios 24/7 for IRLP/EchoLink).

So my question is simple: Why don't they do it? What are the reasons behind?

Not enough time while working down the operations code? A limitation of the
PICs used as the central brain (the other brands use bigger/faster
processors)?

* You have my opinion as a user.
*
* I happen to also love everything about the radio (except when I get in a
* rush and don't press a button long enough and end up changing bands
* instead of turning on/off the VOX). I'm very pleased that the radio does
* EVERYthing that the manufacturer says it will do (and how!) and that
* problems or questions are dealt with (answered) within hours, not weeks
* or months (if ever).
*
* Elecraft has remembered that anyone can make a sale, once. But it's
* customer service (a faintly remembered commodity) that makes the company.

* As long as they continue to remember that, I'm loyal. I've dropped other
* companies (not that they'd notice) for just that reason. If I buy any
* product, I expect it to do what is advertised. With Elecraft, I win.
*
* Elecraft, you ROCK!

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wayne burdick

Re: [KPA500] Rear power switch thread

Administrator

The K3 (like the K2 and our other rigs) uses EEPROM for nonvolatile
parameter storage. This decision was based on several criteria, and we
believe it was the right choice at the time. It's conceivable that in
a future product we might go with battery-backed-up RAM.

The MCU does try to write all changed parameters to EEPROM in the
event of power disappearing suddenly; the electrolytic capacitors do
hold up the MCU's voltage for some milliseconds. But your humble
firmware guy is a lot happier when power is turned off at the radio
first, allowing a clean shut-down sequence.

Thanks for your tolerance of our various idiosyncrasies.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

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Tony Estep

Re: [KPA500] Rear power switch thread

In reply to this post by Oliver Dröse

On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 12:27 PM, Oliver Dröse <[hidden email]> wrote:

> ...when I cut power off my Icom (and all
> other rigs I know of) it always comes back to the last used frequency...

===========
Well, it could be worse. There's at least one commercial transceiver that
responds really negatively to a bad power-off sequence; in the worst case,
you might find that your entire configuration could be lost, including CAT
ports, audio interface setup, and saved frequency memories.

Tony KT0NY
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ab2tc

Re: [KPA500] Rear power switch thread

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Hi all,

Choosing EEPROM for nonvoatile storage was the right choice then and still is. Please don't even entertain a single thought about going back to a battery backed up RAM solution (remember PC BIOS settings in "CMOS"?). It has infinitely more problems than an EEPROM based solution. I really have no idea what people are complaining about. I don't think there are any products out there anymore relying on battery backed up CMOS RAM, thank God. There are many ways to improve (if improvements are indeed needed) the power loss reliability of non-volatile storage, such as fallback on a second copy should the first one fail (you do use checksums, right?)

AB2TC - Knut

wayne burdick wrote

The K3 (like the K2 and our other rigs) uses EEPROM for nonvolatile
parameter storage. This decision was based on several criteria, and we
believe it was the right choice at the time. It's conceivable that in
a future product we might go with battery-backed-up RAM.

The MCU does try to write all changed parameters to EEPROM in the
event of power disappearing suddenly; the electrolytic capacitors do
hold up the MCU's voltage for some milliseconds. But your humble
firmware guy is a lot happier when power is turned off at the radio
first, allowing a clean shut-down sequence.

Thanks for your tolerance of our various idiosyncrasies.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

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David Herring-3

Re: [KPA500] Rear power switch thread

In reply to this post by Oliver Dröse

Olli,

Oh, OK, I see where you are coming from.

The final answer would have to come from Elecraft itself, but I'll hazard a guess that it is probably performance and longevity.

Writing to EEPROM is a relatively slow process and may ( ? ) represent a performance hit within the K3 architecture, the effects of which can be minimized by choosing when to write and when not to write to EEPROM.

EEPROMs have a finite number of writes in their designed lifespan. You want these things to last a very long time.

So I imagine the firmware developer caches settings in volatile memory (for performance) and writes to EEPROM in well timed batches (for performance and longevity) as a way of addressing these two issues.

Again, just a guess and it'd sure be nice if Elecraft could weigh in on this and stop the guessing (though I get that this is unlikely the most important thing they have to do right now). ;-)

73 & Aloha,

Dave
AH6TD

On Dec 1, 2011, at 8:27 AM, Oliver Dröse wrote:

> Dave,
>
> thanks for taking the time trying to explain it. I know what actually
> happens and why one should first power of the radio before cutting the
> lines. Nevertheless Elecraft is not the only one using encoders but still
> they are the only ones with a requirement for that procedure. This has
> nothing to do with being an SDR.
>
> Lets stay at one defined example, the VFO. Everybody is using an encoder
> here, whatever brand it is. Still when I cut power off my Icom (and all
> other rigs I know of) it always comes back to the last used frequency &
> mode. If I just cut power from my K3 it never comes back to the same
> frequency! It usually is one in the same band but not the last used one.
>
> So how do others do it? I imagine they simply write the current frequency
> into memory after probably a few milliseconds of no VFO move. Elecraft could
> do the same (actually they are doing it when powering down the rig).
>
> So my question is simple: Why don't they do it? What are the reasons behind?
> Not enough time while working down the operations code? A limitation of the
> PICs used as the central brain (the other brands use bigger/faster
> processors)?
>
> Don't get me wrong, I really like my K3 & KPA500 and have no problems at all
> with how they work. Nevertheless I am curios to know the reasons. Might be
> 'cause I'm into (only a little) programming myself and want to understand
> other guys logics and learn something, too. ;-))
>
> 73, Olli - DH8BQA
> http://www.dh8bqa.de
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Herring" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Oliver Dröse" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 12:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KPA500] Rear power switch thread
>
>
> Olli,
>
> This is a bit of an oversimplification, but I think it will convey the point
> good enough to address your very valid question without getting into what
> could otherwise be a very long answer.
>
> On most other rigs on the planet, the settings are dictated by the position
> of the knobs and switches. Pull the plug on them and whatever computing
> faculties are present in the rig will simply reboot their software and
> continue on as normal the next time power is applied.
>
> The K3 is more software defined than that. The settings are NOT necessarily
> dictated by the position of the knobs and switches. The settings are
> defined by what's been stored in memory, which is a result of the last
> change in knob and switch position, not necessarily where the knob or switch
> is now.
>
> When you power down the K3 using the front panel power button, this sends an
> instruction to the computer to save all this information in an orderly and
> proper manner for next time, and then power off.
>
> When you pull the plug, the computer in the K3 doesn't get the opportunity
> to save this stuff out in an orderly fashion. 99% of the time it's no
> problem. But pull the plug while the computer happens to be doing a routine
> save of this information, so that not all gets saved or saved properly (as
> an example), and you could wind up with a collection of settings that are
> inconsistent or self-contradicting. At that point, when you power on next
> time the computer hasn't got a hope of figuring out what to do. Your rig
> has just become hosed. You'll need to reset everything back to a generic
> state and start over.
>
> I don't have first hand knowledge of other SDR rigs, but I imagine Elecraft
> is not the only one with this "feature." (I don't call it a problem because
> it isn't...it's exactly how the architecture is designed to work)
>
> I hope that helps.
>
> Dave
> AH6TD
>
>
>
> On Nov 30, 2011, at 12:35 PM, Oliver Dröse wrote:
>
>> Hi Ron,
>>
>> the arguments are told over and over again ("it is like a computer, etc.")
>> for the K3 and KPA500. Still I do not see WHY it is possible with every
>> other transceiver and PA on earth to simply shut down power (disconnecting
>> from mains) without first switching it off and without any possible
>> problems? They use the same "computer technique" inside ...
>>
>> Just curious. ;-))
>>
>> 73, Olli - DH8BQA
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <[hidden email]>
>> To: <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 4:42 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KPA500] Rear power switch thread
>>
>>
>>> Just to be clear - the Elecraft equipment should be turned off using the
>>> front panel switch *before* it is disconnected from the mains supply so
>>> the
>>> logic system can do a proper shut-down. You can get away with "pulling
>>> the
>>> plug" much of the time, but sooner or later you'll catch the logic in the
>>> process do doing something critical - writing data to memory, etc. - and
>>> will end up with scrambled data. That can be corrected by reloading the
>>> firmware, but it's a hassle easily avoided by powering down with the
>>> front
>>> panel switch first.
>>>
>>> Ron AC7AC
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>>>
>>> -----
>>> eMail ist virenfrei.
>>> Von AVG uberpruft - www.avg.de
>>> Version: 10.0.1411 / Virendatenbank: 2092/4046 - Ausgabedatum: 29.11.2011
>>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
>
>
> -----
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>
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Jack Smith-6

Re: [KPA500] Rear power switch thread

In reply to this post by ab2tc

It's also possible to power the micro-controller through a diode
isolated super capacitor of 1 or 2 farads that will run it for some
considerable time. The firmware would then detect un-planned power
removal sequence and perform an appropriate save process before the
super capacitor voltage drops below the brownout level.

I have a real-time clock in one of my PIC projects powered with a diode
isolated 0.22 farad super capacitor that will run the RTC clock chip for
several days if power is removed. That chip consumes much less power
than a PIC, but it shouldn't take a PIC more than few hundred
milliseconds to save variables to EEPROM.

Nice thing about the super capacitors is that unlike a battery they have
essentially unlimited life. However, the discharge voltage follows the
RC network rule, not like the more or less flat output from a battery.

Jack K8ZOA

On 12/1/2011 6:47 PM, ab2tc wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Choosing EEPROM for nonvoatile storage was the right choice then and still
> is. Please don't even entertain a single thought about going back to a
> battery backed up RAM solution (remember PC BIOS settings in "CMOS"?). It
> has infinitely more problems than an EEPROM based solution. I really have no
> idea what people are complaining about. I don't think there are any products
> out there anymore relying on battery backed up CMOS RAM, thank God. There
> are many ways to improve (if improvements are indeed needed) the power loss
> reliability of non-volatile storage, such as fallback on a second copy
> should the first one fail (you do use checksums, right?)
>
> AB2TC - Knut
>
>
> wayne burdick wrote
>> The K3 (like the K2 and our other rigs) uses EEPROM for nonvolatile
>> parameter storage. This decision was based on several criteria, and we
>> believe it was the right choice at the time. It's conceivable that in
>> a future product we might go with battery-backed-up RAM.
>>
>> The MCU does try to write all changed parameters to EEPROM in the
>> event of power disappearing suddenly; the electrolytic capacitors do
>> hold up the MCU's voltage for some milliseconds. But your humble
>> firmware guy is a lot happier when power is turned off at the radio
>> first, allowing a clean shut-down sequence.
>>
>> Thanks for your tolerance of our various idiosyncrasies.
>>
>> 73,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@.qth
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/KPA500-Feature-Request-tp7045355p7052755.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
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>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: [KPA500] Rear power switch thread

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Are we going "full circle"? Battery backed RAM was the "thing" when the
IBM PC was announced (way back when), and then as technology progressed,
that changed to EEPROM which did not require voltage to retain the
settings. I hope we are not going back to that voltage dependent
situation for the K3. As I recall from the IBM computer example, if the
data was something different than the currently displayed frequency, it
might be lost with the power outage example.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/1/2011 3:59 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> The K3 (like the K2 and our other rigs) uses EEPROM for nonvolatile
> parameter storage. This decision was based on several criteria, and we
> believe it was the right choice at the time. It's conceivable that in
> a future product we might go with battery-backed-up RAM.
>
> The MCU does try to write all changed parameters to EEPROM in the
> event of power disappearing suddenly; the electrolytic capacitors do
> hold up the MCU's voltage for some milliseconds. But your humble
> firmware guy is a lot happier when power is turned off at the radio
> first, allowing a clean shut-down sequence.
>
> Thanks for your tolerance of our various idiosyncrasies.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

wayne burdick

Re: [KPA500] Rear power switch thread

Administrator

Hi Don,

If we did decide to use battery-backed up RAM in a product, it would
be shadowed by an EEPROM, and both would be checksummed to ensure fail-
safe operation. That seemed like overkill in 2007 when we were
finalizing the parameter storage implementation for the K3.

Wayne
N6KR

On Dec 1, 2011, at 4:07 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Are we going "full circle"? Battery backed RAM was the "thing" when
> the IBM PC was announced (way back when), and then as technology
> progressed, that changed to EEPROM which did not require voltage to
> retain the settings. I hope we are not going back to that voltage
> dependent situation for the K3. As I recall from the IBM computer
> example, if the data was something different than the currently
> displayed frequency, it might be lost with the power outage example.

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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: [KPA500] Rear power switch thread [End of thread]

Administrator

Folks - We've beaten this to death at this point ;-) Let's table this
thread for now.

73, Eric
List Moderator

www.elecraft.com

On 12/1/2011 4:18 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Hi Don,
>
> If we did decide to use battery-backed up RAM in a product, it would
> be shadowed by an EEPROM, and both would be checksummed to ensure fail-
> safe operation. That seemed like overkill in 2007 when we were
> finalizing the parameter storage implementation for the K3.
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
> On Dec 1, 2011, at 4:07 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> Are we going "full circle"? Battery backed RAM was the "thing" when
>> the IBM PC was announced (way back when), and then as technology
>> progressed, that changed to EEPROM which did not require voltage to
>> retain the settings. I hope we are not going back to that voltage
>> dependent situation for the K3. As I recall from the IBM computer
>> example, if the data was something different than the currently
>> displayed frequency, it might be lost with the power outage example.