[KPOD] Re: Now that the K-Pod is shipping, (longer RJ12 cable)

[Warren Merkel]

Bill

So far, I'm experiencing normal operation of the K-Pod with a 14ft RJ12
6C straight through cable.  Search for:

"09600 RJ12 6P6C Straight Modular Cable"

on Amazon.  It was $4.99 as an add-on item to a larger order.

At this point, I am not using the power modification on the K3, so I
will report back if the results vary after swapping over to feeding
power via the data cable.  Of course, your mileage might vary depending
on RF levels in your shack :)

Warren, KD4Z


>From: ny9h at arrl.net (Bill Steffey NY9H)
>Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 10:08:00 -0400
>Subject: [Elecraft] Now that the K-Pod is shipping,
>
>need a longer rj cable for kpod
>
>is there a reason that an rj12 6c straight thru would not work,???
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[Lyle Johnson]

I suggest cutting the wire connected to pin 1 at the radio end. Can't
hurt to cut it at both ends.  Otherwise, there is a possibility of the
radio doing things you prefer it to not do, probably precisely when you
prefer that it not do those things...

The function associated with pin 1 is not used in the K-Pod, but is used
in the radio and at the factory.

If you are just curious why this might be, please examine the schematics
for the K3 available on the Elecraft website.

73,

Lyle KK7P


> So far, I'm experiencing normal operation of the K-Pod with a 14ft RJ12
> 6C straight through cable.
>
>> need a longer rj cable for kpod
>>
>> is there a reason that an rj12 6c straight thru would not work,???

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[Clay Autery]

Can someone send me the RJ-45 pinout for the connection to the K-pod
(with and without the power mod)?

I'd like to take a look at it....  I am somewhat confident that a
standard CAT-5e cable, while functional is not the BEST solution...

Thanks!

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
[phone]

On 7/15/2016 11:20 AM, Warren Merkel wrote:

> Bill
>
> So far, I'm experiencing normal operation of the K-Pod with a 14ft RJ12
> 6C straight through cable.  Search for:
>
> "09600 RJ12 6P6C Straight Modular Cable"
>
> on Amazon.  It was $4.99 as an add-on item to a larger order.
>
> At this point, I am not using the power modification on the K3, so I
> will report back if the results vary after swapping over to feeding
> power via the data cable.  Of course, your mileage might vary depending
> on RF levels in your shack :)
>
> Warren, KD4Z
>
>
>> From: ny9h at arrl.net (Bill Steffey NY9H)
>> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 10:08:00 -0400
>> Subject: [Elecraft] Now that the K-Pod is shipping,
>>
>> need a longer rj cable for kpod
>>
>> is there a reason that an rj12 6c straight thru would not work,???
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[Lyle Johnson]

It is a 6-pin connector and the wire at pin 1 should be cut at the radio
end and to be safe cut it at both ends.

Yes, people will use full 6-pin cables and may not observe any
problems.  Regardless of such anecdotal evidencee, cut the wire to pin 1.

And of course, turn off the radio before you plug or unplug the cable at
the radio end .  No, you won't damage the radio if you don't observe
this.. Yes, you may be surprised if you don't observe this.

You can see the schematic of the K3 to see what things are connected to,
and pencil in the mod to see what changes.

73,

Lyle KK7P

> Can someone send me the RJ-45 pinout for the connection to the K-pod
> (with and without the power mod)?
>> So far, I'm experiencing normal operation of the K-Pod with a 14ft RJ12
>> 6C straight through cable.
>>> is there a reason that an rj12 6c straight thru would not work,???

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[Don Wilhelm]

Clay,

Not possible - the connector is an RJ12.
Pin 1 is not used and should be clipped at each end for best results.
In other words, an Ethernet cable will not work.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/15/2016 7:47 PM, Clay Autery wrote:

> Can someone send me the RJ-45 pinout for the connection to the K-pod
> (with and without the power mod)?
>
> I'd like to take a look at it....  I am somewhat confident that a
> standard CAT-5e cable, while functional is not the BEST solution...
>
> Thanks!
>
> ______________________
> Clay Autery, KY5G
> MONTAC Enterprises
> [phone]
>
> On 7/15/2016 11:20 AM, Warren Merkel wrote:
>> Bill
>>
>> So far, I'm experiencing normal operation of the K-Pod with a 14ft RJ12
>> 6C straight through cable.  Search for:
>>
>> "09600 RJ12 6P6C Straight Modular Cable"
>>
>> on Amazon.  It was $4.99 as an add-on item to a larger order.
>>
>> At this point, I am not using the power modification on the K3, so I
>> will report back if the results vary after swapping over to feeding
>> power via the data cable.  Of course, your mileage might vary depending
>> on RF levels in your shack :)
>>
>> Warren, KD4Z
>>
>>
>>> From: ny9h at arrl.net (Bill Steffey NY9H)
>>> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 10:08:00 -0400
>>> Subject: [Elecraft] Now that the K-Pod is shipping,
>>>
>>> need a longer rj cable for kpod
>>>
>>> is there a reason that an rj12 6c straight thru would not work,???
>> ______________________________________________________________
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[Clay Autery]

Not THAT into it...  I don't own a K-pod...  Was just going to review
the pin out to see if a better cable design was possible...

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
[phone]

On 7/15/2016 6:55 PM, Lyle Johnson wrote:

> It is a 6-pin connector and the wire at pin 1 should be cut at the
> radio end and to be safe cut it at both ends.
>
> Yes, people will use full 6-pin cables and may not observe any
> problems.  Regardless of such anecdotal evidencee, cut the wire to pin 1.
>
> And of course, turn off the radio before you plug or unplug the cable
> at the radio end .  No, you won't damage the radio if you don't
> observe this.. Yes, you may be surprised if you don't observe this.
>
> You can see the schematic of the K3 to see what things are connected
> to, and pencil in the mod to see what changes.
>
> 73,

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[Clay Autery]

Sorry, I frankly have never looked at the jack on the bottom of my K3s
closely.

OK, RJ 12...  still want to know which signals are on which pins...

Guess I'll have to go do it myself.... this is about 187 on my TO DO
list...  ;)

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
[phone]

On 7/15/2016 6:57 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Clay,
>
> Not possible - the connector is an RJ12.
> Pin 1 is not used and should be clipped at each end for best results.
> In other words, an Ethernet cable will not work.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 7/15/2016 7:47 PM, Clay Autery wrote:
>> Can someone send me the RJ-45 pinout for the connection to the K-pod
>> (with and without the power mod)?
>>
>> I'd like to take a look at it....  I am somewhat confident that a
>> standard CAT-5e cable, while functional is not the BEST solution...
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> ______________________
>> Clay Autery, KY5G
>> MONTAC Enterprises
>> [phone]
>>
>> On 7/15/2016 11:20 AM, Warren Merkel wrote:
>>> Bill
>>>
>>> So far, I'm experiencing normal operation of the K-Pod with a 14ft RJ12
>>> 6C straight through cable.  Search for:
>>>
>>> "09600 RJ12 6P6C Straight Modular Cable"
>>>
>>> on Amazon.  It was $4.99 as an add-on item to a larger order.
>>>
>>> At this point, I am not using the power modification on the K3, so I
>>> will report back if the results vary after swapping over to feeding
>>> power via the data cable.  Of course, your mileage might vary depending
>>> on RF levels in your shack :)
>>>
>>> Warren, KD4Z
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: ny9h at arrl.net (Bill Steffey NY9H)
>>>> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 10:08:00 -0400
>>>> Subject: [Elecraft] Now that the K-Pod is shipping,
>>>>
>>>> need a longer rj cable for kpod
>>>>
>>>> is there a reason that an rj12 6c straight thru would not work,???
>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>

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[Clay Autery]

RR...  I just cracked the K-pod manual and see that the cable is an
RJ-25 cable...  different pinouts from the RJ-12.  (both 6P6C).

I need the signals crossed with the pin numbers...  or colors...

No schematics for the K3s...  I guess I'll try the K3 manual to see if
it is at all illuminating...

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
[phone]

On 7/15/2016 9:36 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> Don is correct but, actually, the connector is a 6PC6 male. The "RJ" numbers
> refer to the wiring AND connector. So it is NOT an RJ12 cable since only 5
> conductors are used.
>
> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
>
> ---
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[Don Wilhelm]

Clay,

The K3 and K3S schematics are the same with respect to that connector.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/15/2016 11:35 PM, Clay Autery wrote:

> RR...  I just cracked the K-pod manual and see that the cable is an
> RJ-25 cable...  different pinouts from the RJ-12.  (both 6P6C).
>
> I need the signals crossed with the pin numbers...  or colors...
>
> No schematics for the K3s...  I guess I'll try the K3 manual to see if
> it is at all illuminating...
>
> ______________________
> Clay Autery, KY5G
> MONTAC Enterprises
> [phone]
>
> On 7/15/2016 9:36 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
>> Don is correct but, actually, the connector is a 6PC6 male. The "RJ" numbers
>> refer to the wiring AND connector. So it is NOT an RJ12 cable since only 5
>> conductors are used.
>>
>> 73, Ron AC7AC
>>
>>
>> ---
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[Joe Stone (KF5WBO)]

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the K3 / K3s "J3" connector leveraged by the K-Pod was originally
intended to serve as a MPLAB ICD 2 (In-Circuit Debugger),

    http://wickedstone.com/KF5WBO/ICD-2%20Schematic.jpg
    http://wickedstone.com/KF5WBO/MPLAB%20ICD%202.jpg
    http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/devicedoc/51331b.pdf

73's

Joe Stone
KF5WBO

[Clay Autery]

No problem Ron...  So can someone tell me:

Is the Elecraft cable that comes with the K-Pod a simple straight
through cable?

What wire color or color/stripe conductor is on each pin?

I dug through the schematics, et al last night and figured out what each
is named...  Just wondering if any thought was given to which pins share
paired conductors, why, and if anyone considered the twist rate in
choosing which pair to use to carry a signal/voltage...

Since only 5 of 6 conductors are used, one conductor has no paired mate...

It's a thought experiment for now...

But the REASON is to see if the standard cable is optimized as is for
using an EXTENDED cable...  e.g. I want to figure out how long we can
make the cable before timing/sig degradation, etc becomes an issue...

Also, I think I have seen at least one report where the cable
construction MIGHT have been the issue...

"Roll your own" isn't as simple as one might think when the paired
signals are not differential "mates".


73,

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
[phone]

On 7/16/2016 10:45 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> Clay. That's a typo. See appendix B of the manual.
>
> Tnx for the head's up. That's an old reference that should be been removed.
>
> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clay Autery [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Friday, July 15, 2016 8:35 PM
> To: Ron D'Eau Claire; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KPOD] Re: Now that the K-Pod is shipping, (longer
> RJ12 cable)
>
> RR...  I just cracked the K-pod manual and see that the cable is an
> RJ-25 cable...  different pinouts from the RJ-12.  (both 6P6C).
>
> I need the signals crossed with the pin numbers...  or colors...
>
> No schematics for the K3s...  I guess I'll try the K3 manual to see if it is
> at all illuminating...
>
> ______________________
> Clay Autery, KY5G
> MONTAC Enterprises
> [phone]
>
> On 7/15/2016 9:36 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
>> Don is correct but, actually, the connector is a 6PC6 male. The "RJ"
>> numbers refer to the wiring AND connector. So it is NOT an RJ12 cable
>> since only 5 conductors are used.
>>
>> 73, Ron AC7AC
>>
>>
>> ---

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[Clay Autery]

Thanks Ron...

I know it is straight through, but the color codes on the shipping cable
are key to my research/testing so I can determine:

1) Which signals are paired/not paired, and

2) Which pair signals are on (due to the differing twist rate on each pair).

If the shipping cable isn't using twisted pair, I would be even more
interested in doing some testing...

Again, my ??s revolve around making extended cables and finding out how
long they can be extended before "issues" arise...

There are a number of ways to "trick" signal circuits into allowing
longer than "standard" cables as "within spec".

We made 30 foot long IDE cables that worked fine back when they were
telling us that they could be no longer than 24 inches max...  We also
made standard length cables that actually IMPOROVED IDE HDD performance
because we "cleaned up" the signals in various ways...

As I said... just a thought exercise at the moment...


73,

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
[phone]

On 7/16/2016 5:47 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> Hi Clay:
>
> It is a simple straight through cable. I can't give you the color codes
> because I don't have the specific cable being shipped. The cable I have is a
> modified RJ12 (pin 1 disconnected at both ends so I don't care which one I
> plug into the K3S). The factory was still making up cables when they sent a
> field test K-Pod to me.
>
> I would not hesitate to make up another by just mounting a pair of male 6P6C
> connectors on the ends of ordinary 6-wire telephone cable, clipping off one
> wire since pin 1 isn't used.
>
> The Project Engineer hasn't mentioned any concerns about twisting conductors
> or pairing the wires in any particular order. What I have is a flat cable
> w/o any twisted pairs. I doubt if it is possible to connect the wires to the
> connectors in any order than they way they are molded in the cable. The only
> 'trick' is to be sure one connector is turned over so pin 2 at one end
> connects to pin 2 at the other end, and so on.
>
> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clay Autery [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2016 2:53 PM
> To: Ron D'Eau Claire; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KPOD] Re: Now that the K-Pod is shipping, (longer
> RJ12 cable)
>
> No problem Ron...  So can someone tell me:
>
> Is the Elecraft cable that comes with the K-Pod a simple straight through
> cable?
>
> What wire color or color/stripe conductor is on each pin?
>
> I dug through the schematics, et al last night and figured out what each is
> named...  Just wondering if any thought was given to which pins share paired
> conductors, why, and if anyone considered the twist rate in choosing which
> pair to use to carry a signal/voltage...
>
> Since only 5 of 6 conductors are used, one conductor has no paired mate...
>
> It's a thought experiment for now...
>
> But the REASON is to see if the standard cable is optimized as is for using
> an EXTENDED cable...  e.g. I want to figure out how long we can make the
> cable before timing/sig degradation, etc becomes an issue...
>
> Also, I think I have seen at least one report where the cable construction
> MIGHT have been the issue...
>
> "Roll your own" isn't as simple as one might think when the paired signals
> are not differential "mates".
>
>
> 73,
>
> ______________________
> Clay Autery, KY5G
> MONTAC Enterprises
> [phone]
>
> On 7/16/2016 10:45 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
>> Clay. That's a typo. See appendix B of the manual.
>>
>> Tnx for the head's up. That's an old reference that should be been
> removed.
>> 73, Ron AC7AC
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Clay Autery [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Friday, July 15, 2016 8:35 PM
>> To: Ron D'Eau Claire; [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KPOD] Re: Now that the K-Pod is shipping,
>> (longer
>> RJ12 cable)
>>
>> RR...  I just cracked the K-pod manual and see that the cable is an
>> RJ-25 cable...  different pinouts from the RJ-12.  (both 6P6C).
>>
>> I need the signals crossed with the pin numbers...  or colors...
>>
>> No schematics for the K3s...  I guess I'll try the K3 manual to see if
>> it is at all illuminating...
>>
>> ______________________
>> Clay Autery, KY5G
>> MONTAC Enterprises
>> [phone]
>>
>> On 7/15/2016 9:36 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
>>> Don is correct but, actually, the connector is a 6PC6 male. The "RJ"
>>> numbers refer to the wiring AND connector. So it is NOT an RJ12 cable
>>> since only 5 conductors are used.
>>>
>>> 73, Ron AC7AC
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>

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[Don Wilhelm]

Clay,

The cable is 5 (active) parallel wires, no twisted pairs.
Yes, you can probably construct a cable with twisted pairs that would
work well over a much greater distance, but that is only a guess at this
point.
Why not give it a try and report your results.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/16/2016 8:13 PM, Clay Autery wrote:

> Thanks Ron...
>
> I know it is straight through, but the color codes on the shipping cable
> are key to my research/testing so I can determine:
>
> 1) Which signals are paired/not paired, and
>
> 2) Which pair signals are on (due to the differing twist rate on each pair).
>
> If the shipping cable isn't using twisted pair, I would be even more
> interested in doing some testing...
>
>

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[Clay Autery]

RR....  thanks...  think I've established that they are using flat
ribbon 6-conductor cable with the "old" color scheme, parallel,
non-twisted...

And yes, all my experience says that:

1) using PROPERLY constructed twisted-pair cable choosing the correct
pairs (use 3 of 4 pair on CAT-5/6/7 wire, will yield a much more robust
standard length cable... and
2) significantly extended cable will likely REQUIRE some form of twisted
pairing, and perhaps even some additional "tricks" like 1 ground (Vss)
per signal, etc, etc... and perhaps even an STP with the shield bonded
to the chassis on the K-pod and K3(s) etc...

I don't KNOW any of this...  But all of my experience leads me to think
in this direction.

Granted, at the moment it is a solution in search of a problem.  ;-)


73,

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
[phone]

On 7/16/2016 7:35 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Clay,
>
> The cable is 5 (active) parallel wires, no twisted pairs.
> Yes, you can probably construct a cable with twisted pairs that would
> work well over a much greater distance, but that is only a guess at
> this point.
> Why not give it a try and report your results.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 7/16/2016 8:13 PM, Clay Autery wrote:
>> Thanks Ron...
>>
>> I know it is straight through, but the color codes on the shipping cable
>> are key to my research/testing so I can determine:
>>
>> 1) Which signals are paired/not paired, and
>>
>> 2) Which pair signals are on (due to the differing twist rate on each
>> pair).
>>
>> If the shipping cable isn't using twisted pair, I would be even more
>> interested in doing some testing...
>>
>>
>

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