KX-2 wish list
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Much as I love my KX-1, I guess I wouldn't be a true Elecraft user if I
didn't wish for more. What I miss most when portable is more power, and I don't mean just 5 watts. In an age where Lithium batteries has suddenly made it practical to run higher power from a lightweight setup, I feel that the 5 watts limit is an obsolete idea founded mostly on qrp snobbery. Except for contesting, when I operate lightweight portable, I just want to feel that I can make a contact in the minimum time possible, in spite of mediocre antennas. 7, 10, 20 or more watts would be great! Here is my wish list in order of priority: 1. More power: at least 5 watts at 9V and 10 watts at 13V. 2. Better receive filtering, consisting of a 500 to 700 Hz square IF filter followed by a good APF. 3. Cover the high HF bands. 4. Wider range tuner with balun. 5. More display digits and more tuning step options such as 25 and 50 Hz. 6. Optional internal capability for 4-cell rechargeable Lithium battery or 8-cell AA. Not so important: 1. Case size. As long as the weight is light, double the case footprint would not be a problem. 2. Voice receive capability. It is useful to be able to receive voice, but I have never actually needed it in the KX-1. Keepers: 1. Real tuning knob is nice. 2. All in one box concept. Perhaps part of the case volume could be used for either a tuner upgrade option or the rechargeable, fatter-than-AA battery option. 73, Erik K7TV ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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As a frequent builder of the KX1, I'm kind of torn on the idea of
improvements. The KX1 is, by almost anyone's account, the standard by which other trail-friendly radios are measured, and when something is THAT popular it's often not a good idea to start making a lot of changes (or create something that directly competes with it). Assuming that Elecraft can continue obtaining parts for the KX1 for the foreseeable future, I would vote to leave it as-is, with the possible exception of upping the power output just a little -- the most that can be realistically squeezed out of the KX1, even with the power output mod, is about 3.5 watts. 73, Steve, KW4H On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 3:38 AM, Erik Basilier <[hidden email]> wrote: > Much as I love my KX-1, I guess I wouldn't be a true Elecraft user if I > didn't wish for more. > > > > What I miss most when portable is more power, and I don't mean just 5 > watts. > In an age where Lithium batteries has suddenly made it practical to run > higher power from a lightweight setup, I feel that the 5 watts limit is an > obsolete idea founded mostly on qrp snobbery. Except for contesting, when I > operate lightweight portable, I just want to feel that I can make a contact > in the minimum time possible, in spite of mediocre antennas. 7, 10, 20 or > more watts would be great! > > > > Here is my wish list in order of priority: > > 1. More power: at least 5 watts at 9V and 10 watts at 13V. > > 2. Better receive filtering, consisting of a 500 to 700 Hz square IF > filter followed by a good APF. > > 3. Cover the high HF bands. > > 4. Wider range tuner with balun. > > 5. More display digits and more tuning step options such as 25 and 50 > Hz. > > 6. Optional internal capability for 4-cell rechargeable Lithium > battery or 8-cell AA. > > > > Not so important: > > 1. Case size. As long as the weight is light, double the case > footprint would not be a problem. > > 2. Voice receive capability. It is useful to be able to receive > voice, > but I have never actually needed it in the KX-1. > > > > Keepers: > > 1. Real tuning knob is nice. > > 2. All in one box concept. > > > > Perhaps part of the case volume could be used for either a tuner upgrade > option or the rechargeable, fatter-than-AA battery option. > > > > 73, > > Erik K7TV > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 3:38 AM, Erik Basilier <[hidden email]> wrote: > I just want to feel that I can make a contact > > in the minimum time possible, in spite of mediocre antennas. 7, 10, 20 or > > more watts would be great! Really, there is a tiny difference between 5 watts and 20 watts. For example, I work PSK everywhere on 5 watts. My wish would be a SSB capability to work digital modes, but that would be impractical for a radio like the KX2 as a trail radio. Besides, more costly. 72 Ron, wb1hga "as you slide down the banister of life, my the splinters point the wrong way" ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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?I'm with you. Creeping featurism would compromise the basic beauty of the
KX-1. It works anywhere with a 25-foot wire. I've discovered that calling CQ is more productive than trying to reply to someone else in competition with more powerful stations. 73, Monty K2DLJ Really, there is a tiny difference between 5 watts and 20 watts. For example, I work PSK everywhere on 5 watts. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Ditto for me. However, there are a few things I'd like to see:
1. A better display. An LCD that shows the complete frequency. 2. A better sidetone. I find it very difficult to match CW pitch with the station I want to work. 3. A little more audio output, to account for variations in headphone sensitivity. 4. An internal rechargeable battery pack that would be recharged when the KX-1 is connected to external power. None of these are what I'd call deal-breakers. 1 and 2 are the items I'd really like to see. 3 and 4 don't cause me any grief but would be nice. Maybe this would be a KX-1.1? 73, Ken Alexander VE3HLS > ?I'm with you. Creeping > featurism would compromise the basic beauty of the > KX-1. It works anywhere with a 25-foot wire. > I've discovered that calling > CQ is more productive than trying to reply to someone else > in competition > with more powerful stations. > 73, Monty K2DLJ > > > Really, there is a tiny difference between 5 watts and 20 > watts. > For example, I work PSK everywhere on 5 watts. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by K7TV
KW4H wrote:
I would vote to leave it as-is I don't want the KX1 to go away, but a new sibling to be added. 73, Erik K7TV ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by K7TV
wb1hga wrote:
"Really, there is a tiny difference between 5 watts and 20 watts. For example, I work PSK everywhere on 5 watts. My wish would be a SSB capability to work digital modes, but that would be impractical for a radio like the KX2 as a trail radio." I don't agree that there is a tiny difference between 5 watts and 20 watts. The only mode I am interested in is CW. 73, Erik K7TV ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by K7TV
K2DLJ wrote:
"Creeping featurism would compromise the basic beauty of the KX-1. It works anywhere with a 25-foot wire. I've discovered that calling CQ is more productive than trying to reply to someone else in competition with more powerful stations." I vividly remember a camping trip just over a year ago when I was at a high elevation (6000 feet or so, but not as high as nearby mountain tops), and used the 25 foot wire and counterpoise. We were just below the tree line, so I used a tree to hoist the wire. I don't like external batteries, so my KX1 put out about 2 watts from the lithium AA cells. The only time the XYL allowed me to set up and operate was during the lunch stop. Effective operating time about 30 minutes. I tried 20, 30 and 40. As we all know, those bands don't tend to be their best at mid-day. Conditions weren't good either. I tried CQ's as well as calling others. There was no contest on. Bottom line: Only one station acknowledged hearing me, and I was such a bad copy that he gave up on the qso before it started. I think with 5 or 10 watts I would have made it. Another memory: I had operated qrp successfully several times from a low mountain top near home. This time we went to the same mountain range but to a saddle point where a crude rock hut was located. This was a nice location to stop for a snack, and it provided a place to sit while operating. Again, someone could barely hear me, but I could not complete a qso. It was in the afternoon when 20 usually works well. I blamed the failure on some sheet metal embedded as a ring in the top of the building. It may have been too close to the antenna, and it may have had lossy joints. QRP operating success depends greatly on finding great locations and operating at the best times. When I operate portable I may not be at a good radio location, and the time of day for radio operation is often not the best. I want to be able to make a contact from anywhere, at any time, for emergency purposes (and to be able to operate when the xyl wants to stop for a break). The reality is that no QRP HF radio easily makes contacts under these conditions, and I need every little edge I can get. A few dB of signal improvement means a lot. 73, Erik K7TV ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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..so there I am, in the garage, late afternoon two days ago, with the
newly homebrewed 20M mag loop sitting in an umbrella stand about 18 inches off the concrete floor. It was threatening to rain and I didn't want to put it outside. Pretuned the loop with my antenna analyzer for the low end of 20M. Now I need something to transmit with. Quick....run upstairs, grab the KX1 and a headset and run back down to the garage! There were 8 fresh "AA" batteries in the KX1 with 1.4 watts going out according to the KX1 display. 20M sounds open and pretty hot! Let's try. Standing in the garage, a few feet from the loop, with the KX1 in my left hand, I worked Illinois, Indiana, Guayama, P.R., and St. Petersburg, Russia (UA1CE) from here in NY. ..and if the band wasn't "open" then I doubt that even a hundred watts would have been enough power. With QRP, timing is everything, in my opinion and experience. Just my opinion, of course, but there are two radios that Elecraft should never mess with - the K2 that launched them and the KX1 which is the premier QRP ultra-portable. For those who may not be familiar with it, there is a SDR in Atlanta, GA - WB4MAK ( http://www.websdr.org/ ). Log on and "tune" the SDR to your transmitting frequency, plug a recorder into your computer's earphone jack, and record yourself calling "CQ" at 15 or 20 watts. Then do it at 10 watts; then at 5 watts, etc. You'll certainly notice a difference in signal strength but you might be surprised at how little that difference is. The KX1 - in my opinion - has just the right amount of compromise between form and feature. If the KX1 were enhanced to higher power, a more powerful and longer lasting power source, and a few extra options such as noise blanker and upgraded filtering.......then it would approximate the K2 which already has 15 watts, options galore, and a hefty battery alternative. It seems like it would be a pretty weak business case to insert a product between the "barebones" KX1 and a "barefoot" K2. At least that's my opinion. Stan Levandowski WB2LQF HF QRP CW -- Doing more with less for over 50 years! QCWA #35038 OOTC #4558 NAQCC #4740 SKCC #6488 FISTS #14992 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by K7TV
> K2DLJ wrote:
Bottom line: Only one station acknowledged hearing me, and I was such a bad > copy that he gave up on the qso before it started. I think with 5 or 10 > watts I would have made it. SNIP > QRP operating success depends greatly on finding great locations and > operating at the best times. When I operate portable I may not be at a > good > radio location, and the time of day for radio operation is often not the > best. I want to be able to make a contact from anywhere, at any time, for > emergency purposes (and to be able to operate when the xyl wants to stop > for a break). The reality is that no QRP HF radio easily makes contacts > under these conditions, and I need every little edge I can get. A few dB > of > signal improvement means a lot. You're correct about needing perhaps few db improvement. 1 S-unit (on a meter, not by ear) consists of 6 db increase in received signal strength. Thus, a transmit power must be increased FOUR times (400%) to achieve a received signal strength of ONE S unit. This means you have to increase from 5 to 20 watts to gain 1 S unit (400% X 5). An increase to anything less will make a "tiny" difference. However, even an S 5 can sound like 599 to the ear. All this depends on the propagation Gods. I do a secret ritual before air time (smile). 72 Ron, wb1hga ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by K7TV
WB3LQF wrote:
"..and if the band wasn't "open" then I doubt that even a hundred watts would have been enough power. With QRP, timing is everything, in my opinion and experience." Timing is a lot of it. Conditions and location also mean a lot. Given a multiband rig and antenna, one can usually find a band where one can hear activity. If one does not want to wait for the best time, received signals are sometimes weak even from 100 watt stations. Then they often have trouble copying your 2 watts. A few dB improvement may make all the difference. How often one gets into such a situation depends on personal habits. When I operate portable it happens about one time out of two, because I don't cherry pick times of operation, nor locations, and I still want a qso even when the bands don't sound good. 73, Erik K7TV ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by K7TV
WB1HGA wrote:
"This means you have to increase from 5 to 20 watts to gain 1 S unit (400% X 5). An increase to anything less will make a "tiny" difference." Ron, I think you were responding to what I wrote. Looking at it from the KX1 perspective, a 1 S unit improvement is also an increase from 2 watts to 8 watts. That said, I think half an S unit (doubling of power) is often enough to make a meaningful difference. As you point out, how something sounds depends on the conditions, and that applies to changes in power as well. Just because a doubling of power may be barely audible in one situation does not mean that one can state that the impact of it is always small. 73, Erik K7TV ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by K7TV
Why not just use an outboard amp. when you feel you need more power?
Geo/W2BPI _http://www.kitsandparts.com/qrp_amp.php_ (http://www.kitsandparts.com/qrp_amp.php) _http://www.w5usj.com/TxTopperQRPAmp.html_ (http://www.w5usj.com/TxTopperQRPAmp.html) Or for more power use a Ramsey Kit amp. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by K7TV
Geo/W2BPI wrote:
"Why not just use an outboard amp. when you feel you need more power?" Because I don't have extra hands to prevent extra boxes from sliding down from the rock operating table. 73, Erik K7TV ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by stan levandowski
I agree a zillion percent with Stan. The KX1 is a phenomenal radio, with a
sensitive receiver and solid transmitter. I typically operate using a 12v battery and a Buddipole, and making contacts is never a problem. They're also a load of fun to build! Steve, KW4H On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 3:19 PM, stan levandowski <[hidden email]>wrote: > ..so there I am, in the garage, late afternoon two days ago, with the > newly homebrewed 20M mag loop sitting in an umbrella stand about 18 > inches off the concrete floor. It was threatening to rain and I didn't > want to put it outside. Pretuned the loop with my antenna analyzer for > the low end of 20M. Now I need something to transmit with. > Quick....run upstairs, grab the KX1 and a headset and run back down to > the garage! > > There were 8 fresh "AA" batteries in the KX1 with 1.4 watts going out > according to the KX1 display. 20M sounds open and pretty hot! Let's try. > Standing in the garage, a few feet from the loop, with the KX1 in my > left hand, I worked Illinois, Indiana, Guayama, P.R., and St. > Petersburg, Russia (UA1CE) from here in NY. > > ..and if the band wasn't "open" then I doubt that even a hundred watts > would have been enough power. With QRP, timing is everything, in my > opinion and experience. > > Just my opinion, of course, but there are two radios that Elecraft > should never mess with - the K2 that launched them and the KX1 which is > the premier QRP ultra-portable. > > For those who may not be familiar with it, there is a SDR in Atlanta, GA > - WB4MAK ( http://www.websdr.org/ ). Log on and "tune" the SDR to your > transmitting frequency, plug a recorder into your computer's earphone > jack, and record yourself calling "CQ" at 15 or 20 watts. Then do it at > 10 watts; then at 5 watts, etc. You'll certainly notice a difference in > signal strength but you might be surprised at how little that difference > is. > > The KX1 - in my opinion - has just the right amount of compromise > between form and feature. If the KX1 were enhanced to higher power, a > more powerful and longer lasting power source, and a few extra options > such as noise blanker and upgraded filtering.......then it would > approximate the K2 which already has 15 watts, options galore, and a > hefty battery alternative. > > It seems like it would be a pretty weak business case to insert a > product between the "barebones" KX1 and a "barefoot" K2. > > At least that's my opinion. > > Stan Levandowski WB2LQF > HF QRP CW -- Doing more with less for over 50 years! > QCWA #35038 OOTC #4558 NAQCC #4740 SKCC #6488 FISTS #14992 > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by K7TV
At first, I passed over this thread. But then I remembered a couple
of changes I would like to see in my KX-1 I use my KX-1 for portable operation when we go camping, hiking, or sometimes in a local park or forest preserve. I have never used the KX-1 for anything other than CW QSO's, ie no SWL'ing. So the improvement I would like to see is to have a fixed bandwidth (500Hz) 4-pole crystal filter in the IF. When the band is active, and especially during sprints, that extra pole of filtering would be a big plus. That's it... a small change (maybe 3 additional parts for the additional pole of filtering, and remove a few parts since it's now a fixed bandwidth) for a big improvement in performance. This would seem like a pretty simple mod, and it's on my list of projects - just haven't gotten to it yet. (If anyone has already done this, I'd really like to hear from you.) 73, ed - k9ew ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by K7TV
>Why not just use an outboard amp. when you feel you need more power?
The "need more power" approach to portable QRP operation is nonsense. What is needed for QRP operation is a DECENT antenna. Not an expensive antenna, just a decent antenna. Something like a resonant dipole that can be built for less than $10, weighs almost nothing, and can be packed in almost no space for storage. That 25 to 85 foot of random wire is easy to string out, but problematic to match with the KX1's very very limited ATU, and even if matched is a terrible radiator. Even worse are those $300 (or more) commercial vertical antennas. Some apparently feel that more money spent means more performance. The opposite is true. I've played around with backpacking antennas and QRP for more than 30 years. It's my **principal** interest in ham radio. Here's what I've learned about portable temporary-site HF operation: There is NOTHING that will beat a cheap resonant dipole, even one at low elevation. In the many side-by-side tests I've done from campsites comparing a very expensive commercial vertical to a home-made dipole, typically greater than a 30 db (5 S-units!) difference will be observed between the two on both receive and transmit. Even QST's evaluation of one of the most expensive and elaborate "portable" verticals, the Outbacker Outreach with Outpost (a very ineffective tripod base that magically "couples" the vertical to ground...$700 total) showed similar magnitudes of performance differential. This means that my 5 watts into a dipole trumps your 5000 watts (!!) going into your high-dollar and heavier vertical. Plus, you've still got poor signal reception due to your antenna. Random wire radiators are generally comparable to verticals. Antennas of these types only prove that at times contacts can be made no matter how poor your antenna is. If a site is so temporary that the 33 feet of a 20m dipole can't be strung out, then why even bother unless one enjoys frustration at not being heard, and at not hearing much. Now as far as what I'd like to see in a "KX2": 1. Re-design it all so that the kludgy and tricky add-on circuits for 80 through 20 meter coverage are on one PCB with the rest of the KX circuit. Put the ATU on that circuit too, and make it have matching capability closer to that of the K1. 2. Re-design the case eliminating any space wasted by a provision for internal batteries. Internal batteries in a small QRP rig is NOT a good idea, especially since an external pack (perhaps one designed for the "KX2") can be so small and much easier to recharge. 3. Have a 4-pole crystal filter. 4. Use a DDS chip that can support 15 meter operation, and add that and 17 meters. 15 meters is one of the very best QRP bands when it is open. I would consider a KXx with these added features to be almost perfect. 73, Mike / KK5F ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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The very light and compact T-1 has a quite wide tuning range.
73 jim ab3cv ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by K7TV
KK5F:
I too have been using wire dipoles as well as verticals and more or less sloping wires. I totally agree that the dipoles (actually inverted vees in my case) are superior over the rocky soil around here, but I don't see a 30 dB difference; more like 6 to 12 dB (no rigorous measurement done). To me, the portable hf rig is safety equipment for hiking, and the technology faces tough comparisons with cell phones and fm handies/repeaters. With solar flares being an extreme case, there is a wide range of "bad" hf conditions that fights our ability to make a contact. Antennas always deserve more attention, but more power would certainly also help the scoring average, even if the increase is only 1 dB. Better receive filtering would help a lot too, as would coverage of the higher bands. 73, Erik K7TV ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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