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KX2 & FT8

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Mark Moeller

KX2 & FT8

I am working to get my KX2 setup for FT8 and appreciate any help.

My setup includes: KX2 connected to a G5RV antenna, Windows 10 laptop, USB
Sound Card, Mic & Phone cables. I am receiving FT8 signals fine, but cannot
make contact with anyone else.

Note that I make CW contacts with no issue, so believe my antenna is fine.

There are many FT8 settings to configure, so unsure where the issue is.

Thank you in advance for advice and/or pointing me in the right direction.

--
Mark A. Moeller
KA9LWK
[hidden email]
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: KX2 & FT8

Do you have a time correction program running on your PC like Dimension 4? If not you will make very few if any contacts. The transmissions between stations have to be synced.

Hank
K4HYJ

> On Dec 1, 2020, at 8:05 AM, Mark Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I am working to get my KX2 setup for FT8 and appreciate any help.
>
> My setup includes: KX2 connected to a G5RV antenna, Windows 10 laptop, USB
> Sound Card, Mic & Phone cables. I am receiving FT8 signals fine, but cannot
> make contact with anyone else.
>
> Note that I make CW contacts with no issue, so believe my antenna is fine.
>
> There are many FT8 settings to configure, so unsure where the issue is.
>
> Thank you in advance for advice and/or pointing me in the right direction.
>
> --
> Mark A. Moeller
> KA9LWK
> [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Rich NE1EE-2

Re: KX2 & FT8

On 2020-12-01 08:12:-0500, Hank via Elecraft wrote:

>Do you have a time correction program running on your PC like Dimension 4? If not you will make very few if any contacts. The transmissions between stations have to be synced.
>
>Hank
>K4HYJ

What is the sync time tolerance? For example, following the directions here
https://www.windowscentral.com/how-manage-time-servers-windows-10
https://www.thewindowsclub.com/change-internet-time-update-interval-windows

or using any number of products such as D4, you can be within 0.01, +- 0.01 s...

Windows defaults to syncing time weekly, but I have mine set at hourly.
At any time, I can go here
https://time.is/

to see how far off I am...is this close enough for FT8? One note I saw said "But if you can get your clock within, say, a half a second, you'll be fine for FT8 and FT4." and this method certainly exceeds that spec.

I'm not an FT8 kinda guy, but I ran across this
http://www.kk5jy.net/tweaktime/

~R~
72/73 de Rich NE1EE
The Dusty Key
On the banks of the Piscataqua

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Joe DeVincentis

Re: KX2 & FT8

In reply to this post by Mark Moeller

These are the steps I usually go through:

1. Ensure PC has an accurate time source. Verify against something like https://time.gov <https://time.gov/>. If the website updates its seconds at the same time as your system from a visual perspective, then you're close enough.

2. If you are using an FTDI based USB to serial converter for CAT control, be sure Serial Enumeration in the advanced properties for the COM port is unchecked (it can do weird things to your system). I also check the box to disable modem control at start up.

2. In the WSJT-X settings ensure that Test CAT and Test PTT work correctly. Be sure that the Test PTT causes the radio to go into TX. I use either CAT control or H/W control for PTT trigger depending on what I can do with the H/W. I generally prefer H/W control. It's faster in the system to flip a bit, then to send a string a bits via the RS232.

3. Setup the Audio in WSJTX to point to the correct devices.

4. In the Windows Sound control panel ensure levels for both Recording and Playback for the device in use for the radio are somewhat reasonable - say 75%. It's just a starting place. Also be sure the devices are not the defaults - that will prevent sounds being sent to the radio you don't want. Can't tell you how times I hear audio play back of either alerts or some streaming media come through. All newly plugged in sound devices are automatically made default by Windows. IMHO, it's a stupid thing for Windows to do and I've never found a setting to prevent that.

5. Check the receive is reasonable in WSJTX - generally between 40 and 60 on the WSJTX meter. Play with settings in the sound control panel and/or the radio until things look right.

6. Set the radio for 0 power and hit the tune button in WSJTX. The radio should go into TX.

7. Using the Sound panel control for the radio playback device, the Pwr slider in WSJTX and/or the radio mic gain, tune until ALC is just starting kick in. On other Elecraft radios, that's usually the 5 ALC bar flickering. I try not to have any setting at the max.

If any step is not working, diagnose and fix that step before proceeding. This is what I have found works best for me. Your mileage my vary.

73,
Joe, KO8V

> On Dec 1, 2020, at 08:04, Mark Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I am working to get my KX2 setup for FT8 and appreciate any help.
>
> My setup includes: KX2 connected to a G5RV antenna, Windows 10 laptop, USB
> Sound Card, Mic & Phone cables. I am receiving FT8 signals fine, but cannot
> make contact with anyone else.
>
> Note that I make CW contacts with no issue, so believe my antenna is fine.
>
> There are many FT8 settings to configure, so unsure where the issue is.
>
> Thank you in advance for advice and/or pointing me in the right direction.
>
> --
> Mark A. Moeller
> KA9LWK
> [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________

Mike Morrow-3

Re: KX2 & FT8

In reply to this post by Mark Moeller

The guidance Joe gives is coherent and complete and a great contribution for interested parties. .

It takes a lot of work to get a ham radio and a jumble of external gimmicks to do all the work of making ham QSOs...if one very generously credits FT8 as a QSO! :-)

Mike / KK5F

-----Original Message-----

>From: Joe DeVincentis <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Dec 1, 2020 8:11 AM
>
>These are the steps I usually go through:
>
>1. Ensure PC has an accurate time source. Verify against something like https://time.gov <https://time.gov/>. If the website updates its seconds at the same time as your system from a visual perspective, then you're close enough.
>
>2. If you are using an FTDI based USB to serial converter for CAT control, be sure Serial Enumeration in the advanced properties for the COM port is unchecked (it can do weird things to your system). I also check the box to disable modem control at start up.
>
>2. In the WSJT-X settings ensure that Test CAT and Test PTT work correctly. Be sure that the Test PTT causes the radio to go into TX. I use either CAT control or H/W control for PTT trigger depending on what I can do with the H/W. I generally prefer H/W control. It's faster in the system to flip a bit, then to send a string a bits via the RS232.
>
>3. Setup the Audio in WSJTX to point to the correct devices.
>
>4. In the Windows Sound control panel ensure levels for both Recording and Playback for the device in use for the radio are somewhat reasonable - say 75%. It's just a starting place. Also be sure the devices are not the defaults - that will prevent sounds being sent to the radio you don't want. Can't tell you how times I hear audio play back of either alerts or some streaming media come through. All newly plugged in sound devices are automatically made default by Windows. IMHO, it's a stupid thing for Windows to do and I've never found a setting to prevent that.
>
>5. Check the receive is reasonable in WSJTX - generally between 40 and 60 on the WSJTX meter. Play with settings in the sound control panel and/or the radio until things look right.
>
>6. Set the radio for 0 power and hit the tune button in WSJTX. The radio should go into TX.
>
>7. Using the Sound panel control for the radio playback device, the Pwr slider in WSJTX and/or the radio mic gain, tune until ALC is just starting kick in. On other Elecraft radios, that's usually the 5 ALC bar flickering. I try not to have any setting at the max.
>
>If any step is not working, diagnose and fix that step before proceeding. This is what I have found works best for me. Your mileage my vary.
>
>73,
>Joe, KO8V
>
>> On Dec 1, 2020, at 08:04, Mark Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I am working to get my KX2 setup for FT8 and appreciate any help.
>>
>> My setup includes: KX2 connected to a G5RV antenna, Windows 10 laptop, USB
>> Sound Card, Mic & Phone cables. I am receiving FT8 signals fine, but cannot
>> make contact with anyone else.
>>
>> Note that I make CW contacts with no issue, so believe my antenna is fine.
>>
>> There are many FT8 settings to configure, so unsure where the issue is.
>>
>> Thank you in advance for advice and/or pointing me in the right direction.
>>
>> --
>> Mark A. Moeller
>> KA9LWK
>> [hidden email]
>>

ANDY DURBIN

KX2 & FT8

In reply to this post by Mark Moeller

You said you receive FT8 signals fine. If that means you are decoding then time sync is not likely to be the cause of you problem. If decoding ok your time error can be easily assessed by looking at the average time error of the signals you decode. Almost any computer is capable of maintaining adequate time accuracy for short term FT8 operation if it is set within a second at the start of the operating session. Many manage mobile operation with no time sync capability. Some use a GPS receiver as a time source.

The most common problem for FT8 TX seems to be that the keying method is not compatible with the modulation signal source. If data vox keying is available it is an easy way to bypass that problem. No KX2 here so can't tell you how to configure for that rig but it should be easy to see if the KX2 is being modulated (no modulation = no power output).

Andy, k3wyc
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Joe DeVincentis

Re: KX2 & FT8

In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3

Mike,

Thanks for the kind words. It is much appreciated.

73,
Joe, KO8V

> On Dec 1, 2020, at 10:08, Mike Morrow <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The guidance Joe gives is coherent and complete and a great contribution for interested parties. .
>
> It takes a lot of work to get a ham radio and a jumble of external gimmicks to do all the work of making ham QSOs...if one very generously credits FT8 as a QSO! :-)
>
> Mike / KK5F
>

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Neil Zampella

Re: KX2 & FT8

In reply to this post by Mark Moeller

The one question I didn't see asked was you have the rig in DATA-A mode,
right?

Neil, KN3ILZ

On 12/1/2020 7:04 AM, Mark Moeller wrote:

> I am working to get my KX2 setup for FT8 and appreciate any help.
>
> My setup includes: KX2 connected to a G5RV antenna, Windows 10 laptop, USB
> Sound Card, Mic & Phone cables. I am receiving FT8 signals fine, but cannot
> make contact with anyone else.
>
> Note that I make CW contacts with no issue, so believe my antenna is fine.
>
> There are many FT8 settings to configure, so unsure where the issue is.
>
> Thank you in advance for advice and/or pointing me in the right direction.
>

Jim Brown-10

Re: KX2 & FT8

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

On 12/1/2020 6:01 AM, Rich NE1EE wrote:
> What is the sync time tolerance?

1 sec is OK, 2 sec will lose a lot of QSOs. I've used this free app for
ten years. Painless to install, runs in the background.
http://www.timesynctool.com/

73, Jim K9YC

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Rich NE1EE-2

Re: KX2 & FT8

On 2020-12-01 12:13:-0800, Jim Brown wrote:
>On 12/1/2020 6:01 AM, Rich NE1EE wrote:
>>What is the sync time tolerance?
>
>1 sec is OK, 2 sec will lose a lot of QSOs. I've used this free app for ten years. Painless to install, runs in the background.
> http://www.timesynctool.com/
>
>73, Jim K9YC

I think that I used to use that. It sure looks familiar. But I now use routines that are already a part of Windows. I just change the time sync period from the default of 1 week to 1 day. It could be set to hourly, and that would keep the sync time (theoretically) below 0.5s. Not trying to sell Windows, but don't see adding to what is already there.

~R~
72/73 de Rich NE1EE
The Dusty Key
On the banks of the Piscataqua

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Rick Bates, NK7I

Re: KX2 & FT8

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Rich,

You WANT to change what Windows does because a generation ago, to allow
their server software to function, they increased the error gap in the
NTP system. It allows WAY too much drift and they've never cleaned that
up (because most users don't care).

I use and suggest Meinberg; which can replace the Windows NTP service.
It's free and keeps my computers within .03 seconds to standard (on very
slow Internet) without requiring high overhead (it just works and well).

73,
Rick NK7I

On 12/1/2020 1:09 PM, Rich NE1EE wrote:

> On 2020-12-01 12:13:-0800, Jim Brown wrote:
>> On 12/1/2020 6:01 AM, Rich NE1EE wrote:
>>> What is the sync time tolerance?
>> 1 sec is OK, 2 sec will lose a lot of QSOs. I've used this free app for ten years. Painless to install, runs in the background.
>> http://www.timesynctool.com/
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
> I think that I used to use that. It sure looks familiar. But I now use routines that are already a part of Windows. I just change the time sync period from the default of 1 week to 1 day. It could be set to hourly, and that would keep the sync time (theoretically) below 0.5s. Not trying to sell Windows, but don't see adding to what is already there.
>
> ~R~
> 72/73 de Rich NE1EE
> The Dusty Key
> On the banks of the Piscataqua
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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Rich NE1EE-2

Re: KX2 & FT8

Rick,
Thanks for the post. I don't need real time "time" for things these days...if I do, I turn to an RTOS...but I am naive in this area.
Since reconfiguring my Windows time specs, including not using the windows.time server, I have not seen a time offset exceeding 0.5s...in fact, the highest I recall is 0.3s...that is 10X the error you report for Meinberg

I visited the site, and found
https://www.meinbergglobal.com/english/info/ntp.htm
https://www.meinbergglobal.com/english/sw/ntp.htm#ntp_stable

so it appears that there is a software-only solution? I don't need to support one more piece of hardware, because my timing needs are not that great now. Thanks for the suggestion...I had not heard of Meinberg previously.

~R~
72/73 de Rich NE1EE
The Dusty Key
On the banks of the Piscataqua

On 2020-12-01 16:46:-0800, Rick Bates, NK7I wrote:
>Rich,
>You WANT to change what Windows does because a generation ago, to allow their server software to function, they increased the error gap in the NTP system.� It allows WAY too much drift and they've never cleaned that up (because most users don't care).
>
>I use and suggest Meinberg; which can replace the Windows NTP service.� It's free and keeps my computers within .03 seconds to standard (on very slow Internet) without requiring high overhead (it just works and well).
>
>73,
>Rick NK7I

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