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KX3 Amp

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Giff Hammar

KX3 Amp

I've been having a blast playing with my new KX3 for the past couple of
weeks and am now looking forward to adding a 100W amp. What kinds of
amps are people using with the KX3? Any that are particularly good or
bad? Any pitfalls? Thoughts about existing products vs. the new one from
Elecraft?

73,

Giff / K1GAH
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OZ2BRN Brian Lodahl

Re: KX3 Amp

Hi Giff K1GAH,

I am in progress of building my own amp according to the Motorola EB-104
application note;

www.ab4oj.com/dl/eb104.pdf

5-10W in, about 600W out depending on your DC supply, all-transistor-amp
using four MRF-150 power FET's. Remember to add a low-pass filter after
the amp.

Communication Concepts in OH sells parts and bits for this construction,
in case you want to hit the ground running.

http://www.communication-concepts.com/index.php/amplifiers/eb104.html

I cannot tell you about the performance yet since I am still weeks from
the first smoke test, hi-hi.

73'
Brian OZ2BRN
Kx3 # 1118, K2/100 # 6936

Den 22-Mar-13 13:20, Giff Hammar skrev:

> I've been having a blast playing with my new KX3 for the past couple
> of weeks and am now looking forward to adding a 100W amp. What kinds
> of amps are people using with the KX3? Any that are particularly good
> or bad? Any pitfalls? Thoughts about existing products vs. the new one
> from Elecraft? 73, Giff / K1GAH
> ______________________________________________________________
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Barry K3NDM

Re: KX3 Amp

In reply to this post by Giff Hammar

Giff,
That was fast. The 100 Watter from Elecraft that matches your new toy should be out soon. If you can't wait, Tentec has anew one out that got good review in QST and they said it plays nice with the KX3. However, I'm waiting for Elecraft amp for my KX3.

73 from Fla.,
Barry
K3NDM

----- Original Message -----
From: Giff Hammar <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 12:20:50 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Elecraft] KX3 Amp
I've been having a blast playing with my new KX3 for the past couple of
weeks and am now looking forward to adding a 100W amp. What kinds of
amps are people using with the KX3? Any that are particularly good or
bad? Any pitfalls? Thoughts about existing products vs. the new one from
Elecraft?
73,
Giff / K1GAH
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Dominic Baines-2

Re: KX3 Amp

In reply to this post by Giff Hammar

You do not need one :-)

72

Dom
M1KTA

On 22/03/13 12:20, Giff Hammar wrote:

> I've been having a blast playing with my new KX3 for the past couple of
> weeks and am now looking forward to adding a 100W amp. What kinds of
> amps are people using with the KX3? Any that are particularly good or
> bad? Any pitfalls? Thoughts about existing products vs. the new one from
> Elecraft?
>
> 73,
>
> Giff / K1GAH
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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Jim Brown-10

Re: KX3 Amp

In reply to this post by Barry K3NDM

On 3/22/2013 6:25 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> The 100 Watter from Elecraft that matches your new toy should be out soon.

Dayton would be a good guess.

73, Jim K9YC
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Edward R Cole

Re: KX3 Amp

In reply to this post by Giff Hammar

I believe the Elecraft gang are hard at work on the KXPA100 for the
KX3 (kinda think it will be ready for Dayton -?). This amp will work
with any 5-10w radio, including the K3/10.

I build one of the CCI kits; the EB27A which provides 270w on 20m
with 12w from either the KX3 or K3. I have used it several times
checking into the Elecraft SSB Net.
http://www.kl7uw.com/HF-300PA.htm

I am starting on the AN762 kit (5w/140w) and will have it at Dayton,
if anyone is interested.

73, Ed - KL7UW

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 13:35:22 +0100
From: Brian Lodahl OZ2BRN <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Amp
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Hi Giff K1GAH,

I am in progress of building my own amp according to the Motorola EB-104
application note;

www.ab4oj.com/dl/eb104.pdf

5-10W in, about 600W out depending on your DC supply, all-transistor-amp
using four MRF-150 power FET's. Remember to add a low-pass filter after
the amp.

Communication Concepts in OH sells parts and bits for this construction,
in case you want to hit the ground running.

http://www.communication-concepts.com/index.php/amplifiers/eb104.html

I cannot tell you about the performance yet since I am still weeks from
the first smoke test, hi-hi.

73'
Brian OZ2BRN
Kx3 # 1118, K2/100 # 6936

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ny4g

Re: KX3 Amp

In reply to this post by Giff Hammar

I have been using a Hardrock which achieves 50 watts easy on all bands accept 6m (about 32 there). At about $250 - that is about $5 dollars a watt versus Ten Tec at $8 a watt. The TenTec does auto band switching though. The developers at Hardrock are working on a band switching code and may be out with a software upgrade that does that soon. The Hardrock is no bigger than a large brick and at about 4x4x8, both the Hardrock and the KX3 fit in one of Rose's cases.

After having achieved QRP/DXCC with the KX3,the extra power is more of a luxury -:)

Ariel NY4G

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 22, 2013, at 8:21 AM, "Giff Hammar" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Peter Wollan-2

Re: KX3 Amp

I hadn't heard of this one. Is it for sale now? this web site says
it's waiting for FCC approval.

www.hobbypcb.com/amateur-radio/amateur-radio/hardrock-50-hf-power-amp-kit.html

Peter W0LLN

On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Ariel Jacala <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have been using a Hardrock which achieves 50 watts easy on all bands accept 6m (about 32 there). At about $250 - that is about $5 dollars a watt versus Ten Tec at $8 a watt. The TenTec does auto band switching though. The developers at Hardrock are working on a band switching code and may be out with a software upgrade that does that soon. The Hardrock is no bigger than a large brick and at about 4x4x8, both the Hardrock and the KX3 fit in one of Rose's cases.
>
> After having achieved QRP/DXCC with the KX3,the extra power is more of a luxury -:)
>
> Ariel NY4G
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 22, 2013, at 8:21 AM, "Giff Hammar" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I've been having a blast playing with my new KX3 for the past couple of
>> weeks and am now looking forward to adding a 100W amp. What kinds of
>> amps are people using with the KX3? Any that are particularly good or
>> bad? Any pitfalls? Thoughts about existing products vs. the new one from
>> Elecraft?
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Giff / K1GAH
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
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Phil Hystad-3

Re: KX3 Amp

Given the message forum included on that web site it seems that people have this kit and are using it, even with the KX3.

If you or others have this I am curious about QSK operation -- is it capable of that or not.

Thanks,
73, phil, K7PEH

On Mar 22, 2013, at 11:09 AM, Peter Wollan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I hadn't heard of this one. Is it for sale now? this web site says
> it's waiting for FCC approval.
>
> www.hobbypcb.com/amateur-radio/amateur-radio/hardrock-50-hf-power-amp-kit.html
>
> Peter W0LLN
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Ariel Jacala <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I have been using a Hardrock which achieves 50 watts easy on all bands accept 6m (about 32 there). At about $250 - that is about $5 dollars a watt versus Ten Tec at $8 a watt. The TenTec does auto band switching though. The developers at Hardrock are working on a band switching code and may be out with a software upgrade that does that soon. The Hardrock is no bigger than a large brick and at about 4x4x8, both the Hardrock and the KX3 fit in one of Rose's cases.
>>
>> After having achieved QRP/DXCC with the KX3,the extra power is more of a luxury -:)
>>
>> Ariel NY4G
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Mar 22, 2013, at 8:21 AM, "Giff Hammar" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> I've been having a blast playing with my new KX3 for the past couple of
>>> weeks and am now looking forward to adding a 100W amp. What kinds of
>>> amps are people using with the KX3? Any that are particularly good or
>>> bad? Any pitfalls? Thoughts about existing products vs. the new one from
>>> Elecraft?
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> Giff / K1GAH
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
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Gil G.

Re: KX3 Amp

I have been using my KX3 for a few months now, and never needed an amp.
Nine out of ten times, if I hear someone, they can hear me (CW).
Actually, even with my K1 at 6W, I never felt the need.
For SSB, I can see how it would help, but for CW, it's a waste of money.

Gil.

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Gil G.

Re: KX3 Amp

On Fri, 2013-03-22 at 12:15 -0700, Donald Bush wrote:
> Great stuff Gil....low power really works if your patient and use a
> decent antennas. I'm currently at 300 countries confirmed using 5
> watts or less. I just worked the Clipperton Island DX-pedition last
> week on 40 with ONE WATT.....and I'm in their log.Yes, the contact was
> on 40 LSB!!
> Best regards with many 72...73.
> Don sr. --WA2TPU --

Thanks Don, that's amazing! Personally, I'd rather use the money I would
use to buy an amp to get more QRP kits. I plan on building a KX1, just
for fun (already built a K1 & K2), and just secured a Weber MTR which I
should receive this week.. A few Watts is indeed enough for CW. I have
been tempted to get an amp, but then thinking about it, I realized it
wouldn't make much difference. I couldn't take it out camping without
having to carry a big battery anyway; not practical. And I would have to
change my antenna, power supply and probably a couple other things to
accommodate the extra power. Just to warm up the air around. No Thanks.
Sometimes I turn my KX3 power down, just out of curiosity, and it has
worked down to 100mW! Faint but readable, 830 miles distance. Usually,
anything at or above 1W goes through. I had Russia on 5W using my
homebrew magnetic loop (21ft perimeter) inside the house! It wasn't even
oriented the right way. I think anyone who needs an amp actually needs a
better antenna... (I use a PAR End-Fed).
So, I'm going to skip the KX3 Amp and get the auto tuner, charger and 2m
module..

Ya'll have a great week-end,

Gil.

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n4cc

Re: KX3 Amp

In reply to this post by Gil G.

Well it may be a waste of money for you but it is worth about 10 db to
everyone else... ;<) 73, Greg-N4CC

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gil G.
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 2:54 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Amp

I have been using my KX3 for a few months now, and never needed an amp.
Nine out of ten times, if I hear someone, they can hear me (CW).
Actually, even with my K1 at 6W, I never felt the need.
For SSB, I can see how it would help, but for CW, it's a waste of money.

Gil.

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David Gilbert

Re: OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal

In reply to this post by Gil G.

That's a good resource but it doesn't tell the whole story. An
amplifier will give you around 10 db improvement in signal on the other
end. That's more than the difference between a dipole and a five
element monobander. As little as 3 or 4 db will make a significant
difference when competing against others in a pileup, and of course as
little as 2 db can make the difference between no copy and clear copy if
your signal is right at the noise level.

http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html

Hams have turned their noses up at amplifiers for decades, but the
reality is that an amplifier and a decent vertical is often a more cost
effective way to put out a good signal than is low power to a tower and
big antenna ... especially if you live in a low noise area where you
don't need lots of discrimination to hear DX (and even then there are
compact receive loops that make possible alternatives).

Dave AB7E

On 3/22/2013 12:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> For the newer hams, here's an interesting resource that will demonstrate to
> you what a DX signal sounds like at 100 watts, 10 watts, 1 watt and 0.1
> watt. All you have to do it tune into the beacon frequency of 14.100,
> 18.110, 21.150, 24.930, 28.200 using CW mode and listen. The beacon stations
> in 18 countries take turns sending call signs and 4 dashes, each dash in
> descending power level. You might be amazed at how often you can hear 10
> watts or less clearly from half way around the world when the band is open.
>
> When the band is not open, a kilowatt doesn't get through.
>
> A complete list of the stations, locations and the transmission sequence is
> at:
>
> http://www.ncdxf.org/beacon/beaconSchedule.html
>
> IIRC, all of the stations use a simple 1/4 wave vertical antenna.
>
> I'm not saying that an amplifier isn't useful, but this helps put the
> advantage of having one in perspective.
>
> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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Bill K9YEQ

Re: OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal

Dave,

Well stated.

73,
Bill
K9YEQ

-----Original Message-----
That's a good resource but it doesn't tell the whole story. An amplifier
will give you around 10 db improvement in signal on the other end. That's
more than the difference between a dipole and a five element monobander. As
little as 3 or 4 db will make a significant difference when competing
against others in a pileup, and of course as little as 2 db can make the
difference between no copy and clear copy if your signal is right at the
noise level.

http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html

Hams have turned their noses up at amplifiers for decades, but the reality
is that an amplifier and a decent vertical is often a more cost effective
way to put out a good signal than is low power to a tower and big antenna
... especially if you live in a low noise area where you don't need lots of
discrimination to hear DX (and even then there are compact receive loops
that make possible alternatives).

Dave AB7En 3/22/2013 12:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> For the newer hams, here's an interesting resource that will
> demonstrate to you what a DX signal sounds like at 100 watts, 10
> watts, 1 watt and 0.1 watt. All you have to do it tune into the beacon
> frequency of 14.100, 18.110, 21.150, 24.930, 28.200 using CW mode and
> listen. The beacon stations in 18 countries take turns sending call
> signs and 4 dashes, each dash in descending power level. You might be
> amazed at how often you can hear 10 watts or less clearly from half way
around the world when the band is open.

>
> When the band is not open, a kilowatt doesn't get through.
>
> A complete list of the stations, locations and the transmission
> sequence is
> at:
>
> http://www.ncdxf.org/beacon/beaconSchedule.html
>
> IIRC, all of the stations use a simple 1/4 wave vertical antenna.
>
> I'm not saying that an amplifier isn't useful, but this helps put the
> advantage of having one in perspective.
>
> 73, Ron AC7AC

Bob K6UJ

Re: OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal

Ron,

I agree 100% Ron. I am elmering new hams and use the beacons as a
good tool to explain the difference in signal strength with increase of power
and relation to db's. Cant think of a better way to demonstrate.
It gives credence to our explaining that they need to focus on the antenna
system first, not an amp.

Bob
K6UJ

On Mar 22, 2013, at 8:34 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> Yes. An amp that takes you up 10:1 in power, e.g. 20 watts to 200 watts or
> 100 watts to 1,000 watts, makes a 10 dB difference in signal -- just a bit
> over one S-unit.
>
> I pointed out the beacon resource as a good example of how often that extra
> power is not needed on H.F., especially for narrow bandwidth modes.
> Otherwise we would not have QRP enthusiasts using simple verticals with DXCC
> awards.
>
> I liked the idea that new Hams can listen to the beacons themselves and
> decide whether the power difference is all that important.
>
> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> That's a good resource but it doesn't tell the whole story. An amplifier
> will give you around 10 db improvement in signal on the other end. That's
> more than the difference between a dipole and a five element monobander. As
> little as 3 or 4 db will make a significant difference when competing
> against others in a pileup, and of course as little as 2 db can make the
> difference between no copy and clear copy if your signal is right at the
> noise level.
>
> http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html
>
> Hams have turned their noses up at amplifiers for decades, but the reality
> is that an amplifier and a decent vertical is often a more cost effective
> way to put out a good signal than is low power to a tower and big antenna
> ... especially if you live in a low noise area where you don't need lots of
> discrimination to hear DX (and even then there are compact receive loops
> that make possible alternatives).
>
> Dave AB7En 3/22/2013 12:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
>> For the newer hams, here's an interesting resource that will
>> demonstrate to you what a DX signal sounds like at 100 watts, 10
>> watts, 1 watt and 0.1 watt. All you have to do it tune into the beacon
>> frequency of 14.100, 18.110, 21.150, 24.930, 28.200 using CW mode and
>> listen. The beacon stations in 18 countries take turns sending call
>> signs and 4 dashes, each dash in descending power level. You might be
>> amazed at how often you can hear 10 watts or less clearly from half
>> way
> around the world when the band is open.
>>
>> When the band is not open, a kilowatt doesn't get through.
>>
>> A complete list of the stations, locations and the transmission
>> sequence is
>> at:
>>
>> http://www.ncdxf.org/beacon/beaconSchedule.html
>>
>> IIRC, all of the stations use a simple 1/4 wave vertical antenna.
>>
>> I'm not saying that an amplifier isn't useful, but this helps put the
>> advantage of having one in perspective.
>>
>> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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Phil Hystad-3

Re: OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal

On a good day from my Kirkland, Washington QTH, I can hear three stations on the 14.1 MHz beacon. That would be 4U1UN, W6WX (always the loudest), and KH6WQ (usually the weakest because it is often off the back of my hex-beam). But, when I can hear any of these stations, I almost always hear all three signal levels and I am pretty sure that if this were a regular QSO that I could copy (at least CW) all three signal levels.

I believe in these begins and the 14.1 MHz beacon is my "home plate" spot for my K3 when I am busy doing other things. So, I get this nice background reminder about how propagation is going and so on -- at least for 20 meters. I have listened to some of the other bands but I favor listening to this 20 meter beacon.

73, phil, K7PEH

On Mar 22, 2013, at 8:52 PM, Bob K6UJ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ron,
>
> I agree 100% Ron. I am elmering new hams and use the beacons as a
> good tool to explain the difference in signal strength with increase of power
> and relation to db's. Cant think of a better way to demonstrate.
> It gives credence to our explaining that they need to focus on the antenna
> system first, not an amp.
>
> Bob
> K6UJ
>
>
>
> On Mar 22, 2013, at 8:34 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
>
>> Yes. An amp that takes you up 10:1 in power, e.g. 20 watts to 200 watts or
>> 100 watts to 1,000 watts, makes a 10 dB difference in signal -- just a bit
>> over one S-unit.
>>
>> I pointed out the beacon resource as a good example of how often that extra
>> power is not needed on H.F., especially for narrow bandwidth modes.
>> Otherwise we would not have QRP enthusiasts using simple verticals with DXCC
>> awards.
>>
>> I liked the idea that new Hams can listen to the beacons themselves and
>> decide whether the power difference is all that important.
>>
>> 73, Ron AC7AC
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> That's a good resource but it doesn't tell the whole story. An amplifier
>> will give you around 10 db improvement in signal on the other end. That's
>> more than the difference between a dipole and a five element monobander. As
>> little as 3 or 4 db will make a significant difference when competing
>> against others in a pileup, and of course as little as 2 db can make the
>> difference between no copy and clear copy if your signal is right at the
>> noise level.
>>
>> http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html
>>
>> Hams have turned their noses up at amplifiers for decades, but the reality
>> is that an amplifier and a decent vertical is often a more cost effective
>> way to put out a good signal than is low power to a tower and big antenna
>> ... especially if you live in a low noise area where you don't need lots of
>> discrimination to hear DX (and even then there are compact receive loops
>> that make possible alternatives).
>>
>> Dave AB7En 3/22/2013 12:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
>>> For the newer hams, here's an interesting resource that will
>>> demonstrate to you what a DX signal sounds like at 100 watts, 10
>>> watts, 1 watt and 0.1 watt. All you have to do it tune into the beacon
>>> frequency of 14.100, 18.110, 21.150, 24.930, 28.200 using CW mode and
>>> listen. The beacon stations in 18 countries take turns sending call
>>> signs and 4 dashes, each dash in descending power level. You might be
>>> amazed at how often you can hear 10 watts or less clearly from half
>>> way
>> around the world when the band is open.
>>>
>>> When the band is not open, a kilowatt doesn't get through.
>>>
>>> A complete list of the stations, locations and the transmission
>>> sequence is
>>> at:
>>>
>>> http://www.ncdxf.org/beacon/beaconSchedule.html
>>>
>>> IIRC, all of the stations use a simple 1/4 wave vertical antenna.
>>>
>>> I'm not saying that an amplifier isn't useful, but this helps put the
>>> advantage of having one in perspective.
>>>
>>> 73, Ron AC7AC
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
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David Gilbert

Re: OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal

In reply to this post by Bill K9YEQ

I guess I wasn't particularly clear, or maybe I just didn't say it often
enough. If you are competing against other hams, such as calling CQ in
a contest or calling DX from within a pileup, EVERY db counts no matter
how good the propagation is. An amplifier will often win the day for
you even if you can hear the other guy while he's running QRP.

The same situation exists if it is noisy on the other end of the path,
where as little as two db will make the difference between clear copy
and no copy. Check the files on my website if you don't agree. The
problem is ... the noise level on the other end may be significantly
different than the noise level on your end. Just because you can hear
him doesn't mean he can hear you.

More importantly, propagation doesn't open up to the same path loss each
day ... some days 5 watts gets the job done and some days even 1500
won't cut it. And just because you can hear F5XXX running 5 watts
doesn't mean that you can hear PA3YYY unless he's running 1500 watts.

My point is that EVERYTHING is situational and generalizations don't do
newcomers many favors.

Dave AB7E

On 3/22/2013 8:34 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> Yes. An amp that takes you up 10:1 in power, e.g. 20 watts to 200 watts or
> 100 watts to 1,000 watts, makes a 10 dB difference in signal -- just a bit
> over one S-unit.
>
> I pointed out the beacon resource as a good example of how often that extra
> power is not needed on H.F., especially for narrow bandwidth modes.
> Otherwise we would not have QRP enthusiasts using simple verticals with DXCC
> awards.
>
> I liked the idea that new Hams can listen to the beacons themselves and
> decide whether the power difference is all that important.
>
> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> That's a good resource but it doesn't tell the whole story. An amplifier
> will give you around 10 db improvement in signal on the other end. That's
> more than the difference between a dipole and a five element monobander. As
> little as 3 or 4 db will make a significant difference when competing
> against others in a pileup, and of course as little as 2 db can make the
> difference between no copy and clear copy if your signal is right at the
> noise level.
>
> http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html
>
> Hams have turned their noses up at amplifiers for decades, but the reality
> is that an amplifier and a decent vertical is often a more cost effective
> way to put out a good signal than is low power to a tower and big antenna
> ... especially if you live in a low noise area where you don't need lots of
> discrimination to hear DX (and even then there are compact receive loops
> that make possible alternatives).
>
> Dave AB7En 3/22/2013 12:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
>> For the newer hams, here's an interesting resource that will
>> demonstrate to you what a DX signal sounds like at 100 watts, 10
>> watts, 1 watt and 0.1 watt. All you have to do it tune into the beacon
>> frequency of 14.100, 18.110, 21.150, 24.930, 28.200 using CW mode and
>> listen. The beacon stations in 18 countries take turns sending call
>> signs and 4 dashes, each dash in descending power level. You might be
>> amazed at how often you can hear 10 watts or less clearly from half
>> way
> around the world when the band is open.
>> When the band is not open, a kilowatt doesn't get through.
>>
>> A complete list of the stations, locations and the transmission
>> sequence is
>> at:
>>
>> http://www.ncdxf.org/beacon/beaconSchedule.html
>>
>> IIRC, all of the stations use a simple 1/4 wave vertical antenna.
>>
>> I'm not saying that an amplifier isn't useful, but this helps put the
>> advantage of having one in perspective.
>>
>> 73, Ron AC7AC
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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>

Johnny Siu

Re: OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal

Yes, Dave, it is exactly what I experienced.

Sent from my iPhone 4

David Gilbert <[hidden email]> 於 2013年3月23日下午2:42 寫道：

>
> I guess I wasn't particularly clear, or maybe I just didn't say it often enough. If you are competing against other hams, such as calling CQ in a contest or calling DX from within a pileup, EVERY db counts no matter how good the propagation is. An amplifier will often win the day for you even if you can hear the other guy while he's running QRP.
>
> The same situation exists if it is noisy on the other end of the path, where as little as two db will make the difference between clear copy and no copy. Check the files on my website if you don't agree. The problem is ... the noise level on the other end may be significantly different than the noise level on your end. Just because you can hear him doesn't mean he can hear you.
>
> More importantly, propagation doesn't open up to the same path loss each day ... some days 5 watts gets the job done and some days even 1500 won't cut it. And just because you can hear F5XXX running 5 watts doesn't mean that you can hear PA3YYY unless he's running 1500 watts.
>
> My point is that EVERYTHING is situational and generalizations don't do newcomers many favors.
>
> Dave AB7E
>
>
>
>
> On 3/22/2013 8:34 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
>> Yes. An amp that takes you up 10:1 in power, e.g. 20 watts to 200 watts or
>> 100 watts to 1,000 watts, makes a 10 dB difference in signal -- just a bit
>> over one S-unit.
>>
>> I pointed out the beacon resource as a good example of how often that extra
>> power is not needed on H.F., especially for narrow bandwidth modes.
>> Otherwise we would not have QRP enthusiasts using simple verticals with DXCC
>> awards.
>>
>> I liked the idea that new Hams can listen to the beacons themselves and
>> decide whether the power difference is all that important.
>>
>> 73, Ron AC7AC
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> That's a good resource but it doesn't tell the whole story. An amplifier
>> will give you around 10 db improvement in signal on the other end. That's
>> more than the difference between a dipole and a five element monobander. As
>> little as 3 or 4 db will make a significant difference when competing
>> against others in a pileup, and of course as little as 2 db can make the
>> difference between no copy and clear copy if your signal is right at the
>> noise level.
>>
>> http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html
>>
>> Hams have turned their noses up at amplifiers for decades, but the reality
>> is that an amplifier and a decent vertical is often a more cost effective
>> way to put out a good signal than is low power to a tower and big antenna
>> ... especially if you live in a low noise area where you don't need lots of
>> discrimination to hear DX (and even then there are compact receive loops
>> that make possible alternatives).
>>
>> Dave AB7En 3/22/2013 12:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
>>> For the newer hams, here's an interesting resource that will
>>> demonstrate to you what a DX signal sounds like at 100 watts, 10
>>> watts, 1 watt and 0.1 watt. All you have to do it tune into the beacon
>>> frequency of 14.100, 18.110, 21.150, 24.930, 28.200 using CW mode and
>>> listen. The beacon stations in 18 countries take turns sending call
>>> signs and 4 dashes, each dash in descending power level. You might be
>>> amazed at how often you can hear 10 watts or less clearly from half
>>> way
>> around the world when the band is open.
>>> When the band is not open, a kilowatt doesn't get through.
>>>
>>> A complete list of the stations, locations and the transmission
>>> sequence is
>>> at:
>>>
>>> http://www.ncdxf.org/beacon/beaconSchedule.html
>>>
>>> IIRC, all of the stations use a simple 1/4 wave vertical antenna.
>>>
>>> I'm not saying that an amplifier isn't useful, but this helps put the
>>> advantage of having one in perspective.
>>>
>>> 73, Ron AC7AC
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Vic Rosenthal

Re: OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal

In reply to this post by Bill K9YEQ

Funny -- one guy says "get an amp, it's 10 dB!" Another says, "don't
bother, it's only 10 dB."

The truth is, it depends on what you are trying to do with your radio.
If you are a DXer, especially on 160/80 meters, then even 1 dB may be
the difference between getting a QSO and getting a "?" from a DX station.

If your operating style is to contact stations when signals are
relatively good, then who cares if you are S7 or S9?

On 3/22/13 8:34 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> Yes. An amp that takes you up 10:1 in power, e.g. 20 watts to 200 watts or
> 100 watts to 1,000 watts, makes a 10 dB difference in signal -- just a bit
> over one S-unit.
>
> I pointed out the beacon resource as a good example of how often that extra
> power is not needed on H.F., especially for narrow bandwidth modes.
> Otherwise we would not have QRP enthusiasts using simple verticals with DXCC
> awards.
>
> I liked the idea that new Hams can listen to the beacons themselves and
> decide whether the power difference is all that important.
>
> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> That's a good resource but it doesn't tell the whole story. An amplifier
> will give you around 10 db improvement in signal on the other end. That's
> more than the difference between a dipole and a five element monobander. As
> little as 3 or 4 db will make a significant difference when competing
> against others in a pileup, and of course as little as 2 db can make the
> difference between no copy and clear copy if your signal is right at the
> noise level.
>
> http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html
>
> Hams have turned their noses up at amplifiers for decades, but the reality
> is that an amplifier and a decent vertical is often a more cost effective
> way to put out a good signal than is low power to a tower and big antenna
> ... especially if you live in a low noise area where you don't need lots of
> discrimination to hear DX (and even then there are compact receive loops
> that make possible alternatives).
>
> Dave AB7En 3/22/2013 12:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
>> For the newer hams, here's an interesting resource that will
>> demonstrate to you what a DX signal sounds like at 100 watts, 10
>> watts, 1 watt and 0.1 watt. All you have to do it tune into the beacon
>> frequency of 14.100, 18.110, 21.150, 24.930, 28.200 using CW mode and
>> listen. The beacon stations in 18 countries take turns sending call
>> signs and 4 dashes, each dash in descending power level. You might be
>> amazed at how often you can hear 10 watts or less clearly from half
>> way
> around the world when the band is open.
>> When the band is not open, a kilowatt doesn't get through.
>>
>> A complete list of the stations, locations and the transmission
>> sequence is
>> at:
>>
>> http://www.ncdxf.org/beacon/beaconSchedule.html
>>
>> IIRC, all of the stations use a simple 1/4 wave vertical antenna.
>>
>> I'm not saying that an amplifier isn't useful, but this helps put the
>> advantage of having one in perspective.
>>
>> 73, Ron AC7AC
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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--
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/

______________________________________________________________
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Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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KD8NNU

Re: OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will Do For Your Signal

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

All this beacon talk has forced me to check out 14.1 and there is
nothing to be heard at my qth with several antennas.

So I am wondering what mode one needs to listen with. I was assuming CW
but I can not hear a signal on USB or LSB on that dial frequency. I
know the band is not so great today but I can get other digital modes
work and with no problem at all.

Don

~73
Don
KD8NNU
FH#4107
-.- -.. ---.. –. –. ..-

On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> No argument Dave.
> You wrote, "If you are competing against other hams, such as calling
> CQ in a
> contest or calling DX from within a pileup,.."
> Of course that's a different situation from listening to a signal on a
> clear
> frequency.
> That's why I don't join pileups calling DX and you'll find me on the
> WARC
> bands during contests.
>
> And I know a lot of other Hams who operate just as I do, transmitting
> only
> on clear frequencies. Our sort of operation eliminates the need to
> have a
> big signal that can be copied through someone else's big signal.
> The beacons demonstrate just how little power is necessary to work the
> world
> on a clear frequency.
> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Gilbert
> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 11:43 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: For New Hams, How to Tell What an Amp Will
> Do
> For Your Signal
>
>
> I guess I wasn't particularly clear, or maybe I just didn't say it
> often
> enough. If you are competing against other hams, such as calling CQ
> in a
> contest or calling DX from within a pileup, EVERY db counts no matter
> how
> good the propagation is. An amplifier will often win the day for you
> even
> if you can hear the other guy while he's running QRP.
>
> The same situation exists if it is noisy on the other end of the path,
> where
> as little as two db will make the difference between clear copy and no
> copy.
> Check the files on my website if you don't agree. The problem is ...
> the
> noise level on the other end may be significantly different than the
> noise
> level on your end. Just because you can hear him doesn't mean he can
> hear
> you.
>
> More importantly, propagation doesn't open up to the same path loss
> each day
> ... some days 5 watts gets the job done and some days even 1500 won't
> cut
> it. And just because you can hear F5XXX running 5 watts doesn't mean
> that
> you can hear PA3YYY unless he's running 1500 watts.
>
> My point is that EVERYTHING is situational and generalizations don't
> do
> newcomers many favors.
>
> Dave AB7E
>
>
>
>
> On 3/22/2013 8:34 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
>> Yes. An amp that takes you up 10:1 in power, e.g. 20 watts to 200
>> watts or
>> 100 watts to 1,000 watts, makes a 10 dB difference in signal -- just
>> a bit over one S-unit.
>>
>> I pointed out the beacon resource as a good example of how often that
>> extra power is not needed on H.F., especially for narrow bandwidth
>> modes.
>> Otherwise we would not have QRP enthusiasts using simple verticals
>> with DXCC awards.
>>
>> I liked the idea that new Hams can listen to the beacons themselves
>> and decide whether the power difference is all that important.
>>
>> 73, Ron AC7AC
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> That's a good resource but it doesn't tell the whole story. An
>> amplifier will give you around 10 db improvement in signal on the
>> other end. That's more than the difference between a dipole and a
>> five element monobander. As little as 3 or 4 db will make a
>> significant difference when competing against others in a pileup, and
>> of course as little as 2 db can make the difference between no copy
>> and clear copy if your signal is right at the noise level.
>>
>> http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html
>>
>> Hams have turned their noses up at amplifiers for decades, but the
>> reality is that an amplifier and a decent vertical is often a more
>> cost effective way to put out a good signal than is low power to a
>> tower and big antenna ... especially if you live in a low noise area
>> where you don't need lots of discrimination to hear DX (and even then
>> there are compact receive loops that make possible alternatives).
>>
>> Dave AB7En 3/22/2013 12:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
>>> For the newer hams, here's an interesting resource that will
>>> demonstrate to you what a DX signal sounds like at 100 watts, 10
>>> watts, 1 watt and 0.1 watt. All you have to do it tune into the
>>> beacon frequency of 14.100, 18.110, 21.150, 24.930, 28.200 using CW
>>> mode and listen. The beacon stations in 18 countries take turns
>>> sending call signs and 4 dashes, each dash in descending power
>>> level. You might be amazed at how often you can hear 10 watts or
>>> less clearly from half way
>> around the world when the band is open.
>>> When the band is not open, a kilowatt doesn't get through.
>>>
>>> A complete list of the stations, locations and the transmission
>>> sequence is
>>> at:
>>>
>>> http://www.ncdxf.org/beacon/beaconSchedule.html
>>>
>>> IIRC, all of the stations use a simple 1/4 wave vertical antenna.
>>>
>>> I'm not saying that an amplifier isn't useful, but this helps put
>>> the advantage of having one in perspective.
>>>
>>> 73, Ron AC7AC
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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1234