KX3 CW Key Sluggish Response
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My KX3 is behaving unusually this morning, so much so that I cannot use it for CW. The first character is beginning, I don't know, about ½ a second delayed from when I press the paddle (both dit or dah), causing just enough confusion in my brain to obviate my sending readable cw. It's not the paddle itself; the behavior is consistent even using my Begali outboard key. Adjusting the QSK delay makes no difference (really didn't expect it to as that delay is the 'hang time', not the start time). Any suggestions would be welcomed and appreciated.
Thanks Joe - WB2SSB Joseph Sanger, M.D. Associate Professor of Radiology Director, Radiology Informatics (212) 263-3434 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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My KX3 is behaving unusually this morning, so much so that I cannot use it for CW (I normally send at about 25-30 WPM; I now cannot send more than about 12 WPM). The first character is beginning, I don't know, about ½ a second delayed from when I press the paddle (both dit or dah) and extra dits/dahs seem to occur beyond when I stop pressing the paddle, causing enough confusion in my brain to obviate my sending readable cw. It's not the paddle itself; the behavior is consistent even using my Begali outboard key. Adjusting the QSK delay makes no difference (really didn't expect it to as that delay is the 'hang time', not the start time). I don't take advantage of iambic modes (although the mode selected is 'A'). Any suggestions would be welcomed and appreciated.
I should add that I just updated the unit to the latest firmware: MCU 1.12 / DSP 0.94, but the problem's relation to this may or may not be significant. Thanks Joe - WB2SSB Joseph Sanger, M.D. Associate Professor of Radiology Director, Radiology Informatics (212) 263-3434 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Well, I just figured out the 'problem' with the delayed response of keying the KX3 rig .... I'm LOL'ing.
I have been playing with a Bluetooth transmitter / headphone on the device ... the audio sounds GREAT .... and it's really a pleasure not to be tethered to the unit .... but ... Well, I guess you can figure out the rest. There is a slight delay in the arrival of the keyed tones to the headphone relative to my pressing the key ... destroying my ability to produce readable code. I am a bit red-faced ... but appreciative of those who offered help. :-/ Joe - WB2SSB -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Sanger, Joseph Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2012 9:13 AM To: <[hidden email]> Subject: [Elecraft] KX3 CW Key Sluggish Response My KX3 is behaving unusually this morning, so much so that I cannot use it for CW (I normally send at about 25-30 WPM; I now cannot send more than about 12 WPM). The first character is beginning, I don't know, about ½ a second delayed from when I press the paddle (both dit or dah) and extra dits/dahs seem to occur beyond when I stop pressing the paddle, causing enough confusion in my brain to obviate my sending readable cw. It's not the paddle itself; the behavior is consistent even using my Begali outboard key. Adjusting the QSK delay makes no difference (really didn't expect it to as that delay is the 'hang time', not the start time). I don't take advantage of iambic modes (although the mode selected is 'A'). Any suggestions would be welcomed and appreciated. I should add that I just updated the unit to the latest firmware: MCU 1.12 / DSP 0.94, but the problem's relation to this may or may not be significant. Thanks Joe - WB2SSB Joseph Sanger, M.D. Associate Professor of Radiology Director, Radiology Informatics (212) 263-3434 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Glad you shared. I had been thinking about using a bluetooth headphones,
but I will avoid them now. Ken KE3C On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 4:38 PM, Sanger, Joseph <[hidden email]>wrote: > Well, I just figured out the 'problem' with the delayed response of keying > the KX3 rig .... I'm LOL'ing. > > I have been playing with a Bluetooth transmitter / headphone on the device > ... the audio sounds GREAT .... and it's really a pleasure not to be > tethered to the unit .... but ... > > Well, I guess you can figure out the rest. There is a slight delay in the > arrival of the keyed tones to the headphone relative to my pressing the key > ... destroying my ability to produce readable code. > > I am a bit red-faced ... but appreciative of those who offered help. > > :-/ > > Joe - WB2SSB > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto: > [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Sanger, Joseph > Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2012 9:13 AM > To: <[hidden email]> > Subject: [Elecraft] KX3 CW Key Sluggish Response > > My KX3 is behaving unusually this morning, so much so that I cannot use it > for CW (I normally send at about 25-30 WPM; I now cannot send more than > about 12 WPM). The first character is beginning, I don't know, about ½ a > second delayed from when I press the paddle (both dit or dah) and extra > dits/dahs seem to occur beyond when I stop pressing the paddle, causing > enough confusion in my brain to obviate my sending readable cw. It's not > the paddle itself; the behavior is consistent even using my Begali > outboard key. Adjusting the QSK delay makes no difference (really didn't > expect it to as that delay is the 'hang time', not the start time). I > don't take advantage of iambic modes (although the mode selected is 'A'). > Any suggestions would be welcomed and appreciated. > > I should add that I just updated the unit to the latest firmware: MCU 1.12 > / DSP 0.94, but the problem's relation to this may or may not be > significant. > Thanks > > Joe - WB2SSB > > Joseph Sanger, M.D. > Associate Professor of Radiology > Director, Radiology Informatics > (212) 263-3434 > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Ken Nicely (N3PSJ)
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Works great for listening though!
:-/ From: Ken Nicely [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2012 06:04 PM To: Sanger, Joseph Cc: <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX3 CW Key Sluggish Response Glad you shared. I had been thinking about using a bluetooth headphones, but I will avoid them now. Ken KE3C On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 4:38 PM, Sanger, Joseph <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: Well, I just figured out the 'problem' with the delayed response of keying the KX3 rig .... I'm LOL'ing. I have been playing with a Bluetooth transmitter / headphone on the device ... the audio sounds GREAT .... and it's really a pleasure not to be tethered to the unit .... but ... Well, I guess you can figure out the rest. There is a slight delay in the arrival of the keyed tones to the headphone relative to my pressing the key ... destroying my ability to produce readable code. I am a bit red-faced ... but appreciative of those who offered help. :-/ Joe - WB2SSB -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>] On Behalf Of Sanger, Joseph Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2012 9:13 AM To: <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> Subject: [Elecraft] KX3 CW Key Sluggish Response My KX3 is behaving unusually this morning, so much so that I cannot use it for CW (I normally send at about 25-30 WPM; I now cannot send more than about 12 WPM). The first character is beginning, I don't know, about ½ a second delayed from when I press the paddle (both dit or dah) and extra dits/dahs seem to occur beyond when I stop pressing the paddle, causing enough confusion in my brain to obviate my sending readable cw. It's not the paddle itself; the behavior is consistent even using my Begali outboard key. Adjusting the QSK delay makes no difference (really didn't expect it to as that delay is the 'hang time', not the start time). I don't take advantage of iambic modes (although the mode selected is 'A'). Any suggestions would be welcomed and appreciated. I should add that I just updated the unit to the latest firmware: MCU 1.12 / DSP 0.94, but the problem's relation to this may or may not be significant. Thanks Joe - WB2SSB Joseph Sanger, M.D. Associate Professor of Radiology Director, Radiology Informatics (212) 263-3434<tel:%28212%29%20263-3434> ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by wb2ssb
Thanks for telling us about this "feature".
I remember one of the jokes we played on announcers at the collage radio stations. We would set up a short delay with a 3 head tape recorder and patch it into the audio line when the record stopped. The DJ would then hear his voice delayed by about 1/2 second. The universal reaction was to tear off the headphones, finish speaking, start a new record, and come looking for us. Cheers - Bill, AE6JV On 9/1/12 at 13:38, [hidden email] (Sanger, Joseph) wrote: >Well, I guess you can figure out the rest. There is a slight >delay in the arrival of the keyed tones to the headphone >relative to my pressing the key ... destroying my ability to >produce readable code. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz |"After all, if the conventional wisdom was working, the 408-356-8506 | rate of systems being compromised would be going down, www.pwpconsult.com | wouldn't it?" -- Marcus Ranum ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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On 9/1/2012 5:58 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
> Thanks for telling us about this "feature". Psychoacoustics is the study of the human perception of sound, and its practitioners are a part of the Acoustical Society of America, of which I am a member. The discipline is quite well developed, and what these folks had learned as early as 1850 formed the basis of modern stereo sound recording and reproduction. One of the earliest scientists was Joseph Henry, inventor of voltmeters and motors, whose name is on the unit of inductance. Sound system professionals have had to deal with electrical delay resulting from digital signal processing (called "latency") since the early '90s, when DSP came into widespread use in large sound systems, and with acoustic delay that results from "time of flight" of sound from live musicians on stage and big loudspeaker systems at considerable distance (and height) from the musicians. Indeed, managing these delays is a critical part of sound system design, especially in large spaces and venues. When listening to a reproduction of our own voice, the human ear/brain can tolerate delays up to about 60msec, but begins having fatigue with much more than about 50 msec, and begins having serious trouble speaking with a delay more than about 80-90 msec. As a pro audio engineer doing a LOT of live sound, I've seen VERY experienced announcers turn to silly putty with 100 msec. Musicians start having issues with tempo with delays much more than 30-40 msec, which is why stage monitors have to be so bloody loud! A common real world example is a "star" singing the Anthem at home plate, with an acoustic delay of 120-150 msec through the sound system to the singer's ears. The solution is simple -- we give the singer undelayed sound from his/her mic into headphones or a big monitor speaker directly in front of them. I don't know of any studies relating to delays and our ability to send CW. 73, Jim K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: PsychoAcoustics and Delay
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> I don't know of any studies relating to delays and our ability to > send CW. Empirically the issue starts to become noticeable when the delay is more than an element (dit/dah) and certainly becomes critical when the delay is a substantial part of a letter. Just like the "soloist" and the National Anthem, the solution is to provide undelayed sidetone from the keyer rather than an off air monitor or RF derived sidetone. BTW, another place acoustic/DSP delays have become an issue is with live TV news. In the old days we used off-air analog signals or analog cell-phones for "IFB" (interruptable fold back) but with the advent of digital cellular systems and digital broadcasting, the delays are well in excess of the "magical" 150 - 200 ms threshold. For TV applications, the solution is to provide "mix minus" - that is the program feed *without* the reporter's own voice - so the reporter can interact normally with other participants. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 9/1/2012 11:57 PM, Jim Brown wrote: > On 9/1/2012 5:58 PM, Bill Frantz wrote: >> Thanks for telling us about this "feature". > > Psychoacoustics is the study of the human perception of sound, and its > practitioners are a part of the Acoustical Society of America, of which > I am a member. The discipline is quite well developed, and what these > folks had learned as early as 1850 formed the basis of modern stereo > sound recording and reproduction. One of the earliest scientists was > Joseph Henry, inventor of voltmeters and motors, whose name is on the > unit of inductance. > > Sound system professionals have had to deal with electrical delay > resulting from digital signal processing (called "latency") since the > early '90s, when DSP came into widespread use in large sound systems, > and with acoustic delay that results from "time of flight" of sound from > live musicians on stage and big loudspeaker systems at considerable > distance (and height) from the musicians. Indeed, managing these delays > is a critical part of sound system design, especially in large spaces > and venues. > > When listening to a reproduction of our own voice, the human ear/brain > can tolerate delays up to about 60msec, but begins having fatigue with > much more than about 50 msec, and begins having serious trouble speaking > with a delay more than about 80-90 msec. As a pro audio engineer doing > a LOT of live sound, I've seen VERY experienced announcers turn to silly > putty with 100 msec. Musicians start having issues with tempo with > delays much more than 30-40 msec, which is why stage monitors have to be > so bloody loud! > > A common real world example is a "star" singing the Anthem at home > plate, with an acoustic delay of 120-150 msec through the sound system > to the singer's ears. The solution is simple -- we give the singer > undelayed sound from his/her mic into headphones or a big monitor > speaker directly in front of them. > > I don't know of any studies relating to delays and our ability to send CW. > > 73, Jim K9YC > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
Hi George,
Great to hear from you. Henry was mondo cool. A google search will turn up lots of interesting stuff. For the last couple of decades of his life he was the chief scientist for our country, founding director of the Smithsonian. The entire US government closed down the day he died and again for his funeral. I learned a lot about him when I did the research to cite him has a reference for an AES paper I was writing on stereo soud reinforcement around 2000, and invited an historian who concentrated on his work to speak to our AES section soon after. One of the things he was asked to weigh in on had to do with the physics of propagation of sound from foghorns. Big deal back then, there were multiple theories advanced, instrumentation to resolve the issue would not exist for at least 100 years, and he publicly put his money on the right horse. His work on the perception of sound and delay that formed the basis of stereo was published in 1850, and it was quite solid. There are multiple volumes of his scientific writing. I found them in the Northwestern University library. 73, Jim K9YC On 9/1/2012 9:38 PM, [hidden email] wrote: > Hi Jim, > >> One of the earliest scientists was >> Joseph Henry, inventor of voltmeters and motors, whose name is on >> the unit of inductance. > We measure inductance in "Josephs"? 8-) > > Sorry... that's one of my favorite word games. > > 73, > > George T Daughters, K6GT > CU in the California QSO Party (CQP) > October 6-7, 2012 > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.2179 / Virus Database: 2437/5104 - Release Date: 07/01/12 > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
Back in the 70s I had a three head reel to reel tape recorder. The
separate record and playback heads allowed you to monitor what you'd just put on the tape, but a fraction of a second later. We discovered that we could have great fun with this ... put headphones on the victim, turned up fairly loud, and challenge him to recite something simple into the microphone such as the nursery rhyme "Mary Had A Little Lamb". Of course, no one could do it and the sputtering and looks of astonishment were hilarious. This works even better after a few beers. 73- Nick, WA5BDU ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4
On 9/1/2012 10:43 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> Empirically the issue starts to become noticeable when the delay is > more than an element (dit/dah) and certainly becomes critical when > the delay is a substantial part of a letter. Yep, actually one dit time delay [or even close to it] is really annoying. The coastal marine stations in the 50's supplied sidetone while sending. I don't know where or how ours was generated, but it had a perceptible delay at 18 WPM [our "speed limit" when in traffic]. Since we had multiple receivers at each position, everyone got their sidetone by listening to our transmitted signal. Somehow, we managed to key the transmitters multiple miles away with no noticeable delay. I never got to the TX site so I don't know how they did it. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012 - www.cqp.org ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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On 9/2/2012 9:51 AM, Fred Jensen wrote:
> Somehow, we managed to > key the transmitters multiple miles away with no noticeable delay. I > never got to the TX site so I don't know how they did it. A few years ago I visited both TX and RX sites for KPH, the coast station north of San Francisco, along with W3DQ, K3NA, and W0YK. The sites were something on the order of 20 miles apart, and the connection was an ordinary telephone line, everything analog, so no delay. The two sites could operate simultaneously on as many frequencies as they had operating positions. CW was simply translated to audio tones, a different frequency for each transmitter, and the output of tone decoders was amplified, rectified, and used to drive relays that keyed the TX. The line was (and still is) a dedicated line, so it does not go through the telephone switching network, so the only delay is the speed of light over that 20-30 miles plus the relay pull-in time. I don't recall how they said the operators were monitoring their own keying. K3NA had a new 2nd Class Telegraph license, so he operated a bit and got it endorsed. The rest of us watched. KPH is maintained by volunteers and is available for tours at scheduled times. It's well worth the time. 73, Jim K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: PsychoAcoustics and Delay
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In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Jim Brown wrote: > A common real world example is a "star" singing the Anthem at home > plate, with an acoustic delay of 120-150 msec through the sound system > to the singer's ears. The solution is simple -- we give the singer > undelayed sound from his/her mic into headphones or a big monitor > speaker directly in front of them. The first time I was preparing to sing the national anthem for a large stadium (around 1990), my vocal coach simply echoed me so I could get used to it :). I still deal with it from time to time on the phone, where it really drives me nuts, but sometimes you just have to live with it. -kb7psg ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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