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KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual

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Bill Turner

Re: KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual

ORIGINAL MESSAGE: (may be snipped)

On 4/25/2014 3:06 PM, KENT TRIMBLE wrote:
>
> As it is, many erroneously believe the antenna itself is being tuned.

REPLY:

Please don't get hung up over "tuning" vs "matching". The word "tune" in
English is widely used to mean adjusting something to reach a desired
condition. You use an antenna tuner to match impedances. You tune you
car's engine to match factory specs.

To many of us "antenna" means the whole system including feedline. In
that sense, "antenna tuner" is correct.

It's like tuning an amplifier. Again, you are "tuning" the output
network to match impedances. Everyone knows what it means to "tune an
amplifier".

Or would you rather say "Please standby while I match the output
impedance of the tube in my amplifier to my antenna system"?

73, Bill W6WRT

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Alan Bloom

Re: KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

The term "ground" has always been used to refer to the common tie point
in a circuit. For example the shape on the schematic with the three
little horizontal lines is referred to as a "ground" symbol.

But that has caused no end of confusion. Contrary to widely-held
belief, in 99% of cases it is not necessary to tie the "ground" point to
earth for proper operation.

You often hear people say that a low-pass TVI filter must be grounded
for proper operation. If by "grounded" they mean tied to the chassis of
the transmitter, then that is correct. But if by "grounded" they mean
connected to earth, then it is absolutely not true.

People often blame TVI on inadequate earth ground. Nothing could be
farther from the truth. A connection to earth ground could make the TVI
worse, better, or (most likely) no change, depending on the particular
installation, but if you have a TVI problem it is almost certainly not
due to lack of an earth ground.

Alan N1AL

On 04/25/2014 02:16 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Jim is quite correct that a radial or a counterpoise should not be
> referred to as 'ground'. To do so further confuses the use of "ground"
> by many hams.
> At least the English use words to differentiate between "earth" and
> "ground" (but there is still the lack of differentiation for
> counterpoises and radials).
>
> One needs to consider AC grounds, Lightning grounds, and RF Grounds
> separately. The only two that have a relationship with driven ground
> rods are the AC Ground and Lightning Ground. RF ground (and RF return
> path with respect to the antenna) is an entirely different
> consideration, and IMHO should not be called "ground" because it rarely
> is a "ground".
>
> There is further confusion about what a "ground" is. Driven stakes do
> not constitute an RF ground as one example, and a simple driven stake is
> not adequate for lightning protection even though it may provide some
> ESD protection.
>
> Yes, I have given this "rant" several times on this reflector and
> elsewhere. Do you have your driven ground rods connected to the utility
> entrance ground rod with a large conductor (#6 or larger)? If not, you
> may have created a safety hazard instead of any protection.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 4/25/2014 4:53 PM, Mike Morrow wrote:
>>> These paragraphs demand a serious and immediate rewrite.
>> There's no chance that you are being just a little pedantic, perhaps?
>>
>>
>
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Re: KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

________________________________
From: Wayne Burdick

That may be. But we're thick-skinned around here,

--- Snip ---

---------------------------------------------------

I'm glad to see you folks are Thick skinned.

I know I can come across as harsh but It's better to have a friend tell you
a harsh truth than an enemy (or fake friend) tell you everything is OK.

I Like Elecraft as a Company and I have steered a number of people to Elecraft.
So I have a interest in seeing Elecraft do well not only for myself but for those I send to Elecraft.

The day I tell you that Elecraft is perfect is they day you will know I no longer care.
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k6dgw

Re: KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

I know Jim very well and he is technically correct of course. That
said, I can make the case that the goal of the manual is to communicate
to a very large audience on the set-up and use of the radio. For many
of them [most?], the term "ground" can mean the chassis connection, the
negative terminal of the power supply, a rod driven in the ground, a
wire laying on or slightly elevated from the earth's surface in the
vicinity of the antenna, or even the Pacific Ocean [if you happen to be
afloat in it]. I think consistency in choice of terms is probably at
least as important as the exact terms themselves.

The manual *does* need to be very clear on matters of safety. NEC
requires that all earth electrodes be bonded together with heavy wire
and bonded to the service entrance earth electrode. If the manual is
going to talk about an earth electrode, it probably should mention items
like this, perhaps in a footnote.

On a different but related subject, I host and power the neighborhood
RAP for the wireless company on my tower in return for free I'net access
at the backhaul speed [17-25 mbps or so]. They recently replaced their
equipment and used an SMPS in the UPS to power the radios and their
router. The SMPS was putting out raucous, 7-8 KHz wide signals every 26
KHz from below the AM BC band to about 60 meters. Peaks were running
about -40 dBm [S9+35] on 80 and 160. It's gone now, thanks to the info
in Jim's very detailed dissertation on RFI [http://k9yc.com/RFI-Ham.pdf].

We're all increasingly subject to RFI conditions with the explosion of
RF noisemakers out there. If you have such a problem, I strongly
recommend reading Jim's paper before trying to mitigate the noises. It
will save you a bundle of money, effort, and time. And, proper
"grounding" can be a big factor. :-)

Now if I can just get CalTrans to fix their street light down at the
interchange.
73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
- www.cqp.org

On 4/25/2014 2:14 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
> That may be. But we're thick-skinned around here, and we revel in a
> good technical skirmish now and then. Jim is a worthy combatant.

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k6dgw

Re: KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual

In reply to this post by KENT TRIMBLE

Years ago [many] they were usually called "antenna couplers" which is
somewhat closer to fact. I was once told by a trucker with a radio and
no license that the purpose of the gizmo in the cables to the "co-phase,
coil-boosted antennas" on his mirrors was "to block the SWR's from the
radio." I guess that's one way to look at it.

You're right though, ATU technically sends the wrong message.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
- www.cqp.org

On 4/25/2014 3:06 PM, KENT TRIMBLE wrote:
> While they're at it, I'd suggest getting rid of "antenna tuner" and its
> "ATU" derivatives.
>
> "AMU" would go far in helping a new ham understand why he needs to push
> that button.
>
> As it is, many erroneously believe the antenna itself is being tuned.

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Re: KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual

In reply to this post by Frank Precissi

>>>> I took the KX3 manual into the smallest room in the house for a few
minutes this morning <<<<

NOW!

Is there anyone in the audience, who still has doubt about some of the most " Earth " shattering
thought processes ever to evolve from that Small Room.

These thoughts are so " Electrifying " that it leaves its occupants no other option, but to

have both feet " Grounded "
Such is the beauty of having a well grounded, down to earth idea that can be conceived in
no other place but the "Small Room " :-)

ps. The devil made me do it!

((((73)))) Milverton.

On Friday, April 25, 2014 5:39 PM, Frank Precissi <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 2:15 PM, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>> Frank,
>>
>> I don't think Jim's comments would be considered "blasting" by Elecraft. I
>> believe they know Jim quite well and Jim has provided a lot of input and
>> support over an extended time.
>>
>> I know Jim has taught me to look carefully at my own station installation
>> and the lessons learned have been of benefit to me.
>>
>> I thought Jim's comments were timely but that is only my opinion and not
>> shared by many perhaps. I believe Jim meant no disrespect to Elecraft.
>>
>> Gary
>
>
>My issue was not about the content, but about the delivery. If I had an
>issue about a vague or incorrect term for a product I wouldn't go on a
>public forum and call them to the mat on how wrong it is (ie: "These
>paragraphs demand a serious and immediate rewrite. Yes, we've seen serious
>errors in equipment manuals for as long as I've been a ham, but we expect
>more from Elecraft").
>
>
>Frank
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>
>

Johnny Siu

KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

I am afraid that I don't think Jim is pedantic. What he said is factually correct and it is nothing wrong for him to tell us the fact in the mail listing.

The best part of Elecraft is having real thick-skin. I always criticise them openly in this mail listing. Although I am their loyal user, there is NOT a logic that I should always clap my hands towards them on every occasion.

On the other hand, if I said nothing on this mail listing in future, I might have already quietly sold all my elecraft gears.

Well done, Jim and I am looking forward to more radio knowledge. Unlike most of the learned telecom specialists here, I am not a radio man by profession.

73

Johnny VR2XMC

________________________________
寄件人︰ Jim Brown <[hidden email]>
收件人︰ [hidden email]
傳送日期︰ 2014年04月26日 (週六) 5:52 AM
主題︰ Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual

On 4/25/2014 1:53 PM, Mike Morrow wrote:
> There's no chance that you are being just a little pedantic, perhaps?

None at all -- it is exactly errors like this that have led to
widespread misunderstandings about how these things work.

And I posted it to the reflector hoping to cause readers to think about
these misconceptions.

73, Jim K9YC

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Re: KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual

In reply to this post by Frank Precissi

I'm with Frank. His remark is right on the money, IMHO.
Robert
K5TD

Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 25, 2014, at 4:05 PM, Frank Precissi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> There is a difference between emailing Elecraft and voicing your concerns
> privately vs going on the public mailing list and blasting them in front of
> their customer base.
>
> Just my 0.02.
>
> Frank
> KG6EYC

Josh Fiden

Re: KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual

In reply to this post by Alan Bloom

Used correctly, THAT symbol is specifically Earth ground. As opposed to
the 'sideways E' (chassis ground) or triangle (signal) ground symbols.

Lots of room for confusion, and very often they seem to be used
interchangeably. Using them correctly conveys useful info!

I vote yes for pedantic!

73,
Josh W6XU

On 4/25/2014 3:48 PM, Alan Bloom wrote:
> For example the shape on the schematic with the three little
> horizontal lines is referred to as a "ground" symbol.

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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual

Administrator

In reply to this post by Johnny Siu

Hi Folks,

We're in direct contact with Jim on this issue, so lets end the thread at this
time in the interest of keeping list traffic under control.

Now back to our regular mayhem.. ;-)

73,

Eric
List moderator
elecraft.com

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Given the subject matter, I believe Jim's comments are quite in order to
assist in educating the hams on this reflector.
Should that post been proceeded by a private email to Wayne and the
other authors of the manual, that is a different matter entirely, it may
have been done, but we will never know about that.

The information on Jim's post should be valuable to the general ham
population, so a public post was appropriate IMHO.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/25/2014 7:57 PM, Robert L. Tucker via Elecraft wrote:
> I'm with Frank. His remark is right on the money, IMHO.
> Robert
> K5TD
>
>

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riese-k3djc

Re: KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Ummmm wouldnt the correct term be Return
when talking antennas

Bob K3DJC

On Fri, 25 Apr 2014 17:04:13 -0700 Josh Fiden <[hidden email]>
writes:

> Used correctly, THAT symbol is specifically Earth ground. As opposed
> to
> the 'sideways E' (chassis ground) or triangle (signal) ground
> symbols.
>
> Lots of room for confusion, and very often they seem to be used
> interchangeably. Using them correctly conveys useful info!
>
> I vote yes for pedantic!
>
> 73,
> Josh W6XU
>
>
> On 4/25/2014 3:48 PM, Alan Bloom wrote:
> > For example the shape on the schematic with the three little
> > horizontal lines is referred to as a "ground" symbol.
>
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Jim Brown-10

Re: KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

On 4/25/2014 5:08 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> Should that post been proceeded by a private email to Wayne and the
> other authors of the manual, that is a different matter entirely, it
> may have been done, but we will never know about that.

If I had discovered a serious fault (or even a minor one) with a product
or firmware that might have used by someone to give Elecraft a black
eye, I would have done so directly with Wayne, and I have done that more
than a few times in the past. But this one is about educating one and
all about concepts that are widely misunderstood by hams, including,
sadly, many who write manuals. W3FPR, K6DGW, N1AL are among those who
clearly understood, and posted clear examples of exactly the
misconceptions I was describing.

Within an hour of my post, Wayne responded in a very positive manner,
asked if I would like to mark up a copy of the text in question, I
agreed. I sent the marked up text back to him about 90 minutes ago.

Try having an exchange like that with ANY other manufacturer! How many
years (and new models) did it take Yaesu to fix their massive key click
problem with the FT1000-series?

73, Jim K9YC
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Mike Morrow-3

Re: KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Jim wrote:

> These paragraphs demand a serious and immediate rewrite. Yes, we've
> seen serious errors in equipment manuals for as long as I've been a ham,
> but we expect more from Elecraft. It is yet another example of confusion
> and muddled thinking resulting from using the word "ground" when other
> words, like "radial" and "counterpoise" convey the correct meaning.

I wrote:

> There's no chance that you are being just a little pedantic, perhaps?

Jim wrote:

> None at all -- it is exactly errors like this that have led to
> widespread misunderstandings about how these things work.

There is neither dispute with nor criticism of the technical points of
your original post. My response certainly made none. In that light,
those who take issue with my posting do so with a straw man.

The problem is presentation...namely your subject line assertion, and
your last paragraph, quoted above. Both fully meet any reasonable
definition of pedantry, or hyperbole, or both. I have several decades
experience communicating technical material in my profession (electrical
and nuclear engineering). Pedantry and hyperbole mitigate against effective
communication...unless used in an obviously humorous presentation. I
missed the humor in your presentation. :-)

I, for one, have never expected to be instructed in antenna principles
from the owner's manual of any radio I have ever purchased in 46 years
as a ham. I would not be interested in any such material provided by
Elecraft or any other manufacturer. I'd say remove it...it doesn't
belong in an equipment manual. Have the manufacturers of all those
$300 to $600 magic sky hooks that folks buy for their KX3 put that
info in their manuals, if anywhere it must be other than one of the
many many proper handbooks. :-)

73,
Mike / KK5F
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W1KSZ

Re: KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Wow, when you guys get your teeth into something, you really chew.

73, Dick, W1KSZ

On 4/25/2014 4:24 PM, Milverton M. Swire via Elecraft wrote:

>>>>> I took the KX3 manual into the smallest room in the house for a few
> minutes this morning <<<<
>
>
> NOW!
>
> Is there anyone in the audience, who still has doubt about some of the most " Earth " shattering
> thought processes ever to evolve from that Small Room.
>
> These thoughts are so " Electrifying " that it leaves its occupants no other option, but to
>
> have both feet " Grounded "
> Such is the beauty of having a well grounded, down to earth idea that can be conceived in
> no other place but the "Small Room " :-)
>
>
> ps. The devil made me do it!
>
>
>
> ((((73)))) Milverton.
>
>
> On Friday, April 25, 2014 5:39 PM, Frank Precissi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 2:15 PM, Gary Gregory <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Frank,
>>>
>>> I don't think Jim's comments would be considered "blasting" by Elecraft. I
>>> believe they know Jim quite well and Jim has provided a lot of input and
>>> support over an extended time.
>>>
>>> I know Jim has taught me to look carefully at my own station installation
>>> and the lessons learned have been of benefit to me.
>>>
>>> I thought Jim's comments were timely but that is only my opinion and not
>>> shared by many perhaps. I believe Jim meant no disrespect to Elecraft.
>>>
>>> Gary
>>
>> My issue was not about the content, but about the delivery. If I had an
>> issue about a vague or incorrect term for a product I wouldn't go on a
>> public forum and call them to the mat on how wrong it is (ie: "These
>> paragraphs demand a serious and immediate rewrite. Yes, we've seen serious
>> errors in equipment manuals for as long as I've been a ham, but we expect
>> more from Elecraft").
>>
>>
>> Frank
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>>
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual

And we "chew" on it for the edification of all hams that may be listening.
There are myths and misinformation that I hear everyday on the ham
bands, and to a lesser extent on reflector postings.
We can all learn from posts of the nature that Jim presented. I have
echoed several derivatives of his comments in the past, but perhaps it
is time for a refresher (and some study) on what "grounds" accomplish
and how to implement them correctly. For Lightning protection, I refer
you to the information by Ron Block that can be found at
http://www.arrl.org/lightning-protection.
He does cover some AC ground protection in those articles as well. He
talks of a perimeter wire around any building and tying it into the
Utility entrance ground. That is important for AC safety of your
station and your home.

As I indicated, RF "Ground" is neither of those grounding systems. RF
Ground is a point in the antenna system where the RF voltage is zero.
That is entirely dependent on your antenna - for a balanced dipole, it
exists at the center of the antenna feedpoint, and for a vertical, it
should exist at the midpoint of the vertical radiator and whatever
"counterpoise" is used. That may or may not be associated (and usually
is not) associated with any reference to "mother earth" - it is a
concept that is unique to the RF voltage and current.

In other words, attempting to create an "RF Ground" with a connection to
earth may be an exercise in futility and may actually create "RF in the
shack" and depends on the length of the wire to earth. For instance a
"ground wire" 8 feet in length to a ground rod will be a high impedance
to RF at 28 MHz, so instead of providing an "RF Ground", it will create
just the opposite.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/25/2014 9:14 PM, Richard Solomon wrote:
> Wow, when you guys get your teeth into something, you really chew.
>

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Mike Reublin

Re: KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual

In reply to this post by Scott Manthe-2

IMNSHO, no. That promotes incorrect thinking. Education is a GoodThing (tm).

73, Mike NF4L

On Apr 25, 2014, at 5:12 PM, Scott Manthe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Since the vast majority of radio amateurs are not engineers is it possible that it is preferable to use the terms that amateurs are familiar with in the way that they are familiar with, rather than the "correct" engineering terms?
>
> 73,
> Scott, N9AA
>
>
> On 4/25/14 5:01 PM, Gary Gregory wrote:
>> Jim IS correct though and it would be preferable to use the correct term
>> rather than those that are bandied around in conversations we hear on air
>> often.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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Bill Turner

Re: KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual

In reply to this post by Josh Fiden

ORIGINAL MESSAGE: (may be snipped)

On 4/25/2014 5:04 PM, Josh Fiden wrote:
> Used correctly, THAT symbol is specifically Earth ground. As opposed
> to the 'sideways E' (chassis ground) or triangle (signal) ground
> symbols.

REPLY:

Just wait till you go to work in the aircraft industry and try to
"ground" something at 30,000 feet! :-)

73, Bill W6WRT

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gm3sek

Re: KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual

>> Used correctly, THAT symbol is specifically Earth ground. As opposed
>> to the 'sideways E' (chassis ground) or triangle (signal) ground
>> symbols.
>
>REPLY:
>
>Just wait till you go to work in the aircraft industry and try to
>"ground" something at 30,000 feet! :-)
>
>73, Bill W6WRT

Taking this one step further, it can be very useful to ask yourself:
"How would this circuit work if it were completely floating in space?"
This is a very good way to focus on CONNECTIONS, and on the fact that
currents flow in closed loops (which is precisely why we use that word
"circuit").

Imagining the circuit in free space will show that the so-called
"ground" connection is usually a return path being shared by several
different signal and supply circuits. It will also show that a
connection to "earth" is often not needed - or worse still, may be a
complete illusion.

It IS important to use the right words, because RF engineering is NOT an
easy subject! Smart people will help themselves to think straight by
carefully using the right words.

Anyone who says "Hey, look - I'm getting this right, even when I'm using
the wrong words!" is probably about to demonstrate that he wasn't smart
<enough>.

73 from Ian GM3SEK

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Stewart

Re: KX3 Serious Errors in the Manual

As my father used to say; "If you can't talk it, you don't know it".
Stew ke4yh

Anyone who says "Hey, look - I'm getting this right, even when I'm using
the wrong words!" is probably about to demonstrate that he wasn't smart
<enough>.

73 from Ian GM3SEK

_

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