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KX3 internal battery charger

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John Fritze

KX3 internal battery charger

I know the internal battery charger for the KX3 is still being finalized,
but my question is: will it be able to charge differnt types of batteries
like lithium or just nicad?
K2QY
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Matt Zilmer

Re: KX3 internal battery charger

NiMH-only far as I know. There are safety issues with Li, and NiCd
types aren't often used any more.

If several charger settings are offered, it's a sure bet that some
user will set it wrong for the battery type being charged. This can
damage batteries and in turn cause them to bulge or leak. Could
produce disappointing results for the KX3 owner.

I see problems like the above in consumer products all the time. The
user leaves the charger enabled, then puts non-rechargeable cells in
the device. And then we get it back for repair....

NiMH offer the best compromise, imho. And the KXBC3's charge rate is
around C/10 (10 hour charge time, roughly), so the NiMH cells won't
overheat. Wayne's chosen best for all of us, seems like.

matt W6NIA

On Sat, 30 Jun 2012 10:33:59 -0400, you wrote:

>I know the internal battery charger for the KX3 is still being finalized,
>but my question is: will it be able to charge differnt types of batteries
>like lithium or just nicad?
>K2QY
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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Fred Townsend

Re: KX3 internal battery charger

In reply to this post by John Fritze

John I have no knowledge of what Elecraft is going to do. In general there
are three distinct technologies out there and it is difficult to make a
charger that crosses those boundaries. Lead (car battery, gel cell etc.),
NiCd/Niah, and Lithium. With the higher efficiency and lower weight of the
Lithium series plus the airline travel restrictions being reduced on some
types of Lithium it seems like a no brainer to me.
73
Fred, AE6QL

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of John Fritze
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 7:34 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] KX3 internal battery charger

I know the internal battery charger for the KX3 is still being finalized,
but my question is: will it be able to charge differnt types of batteries
like lithium or just nicad?
K2QY
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Nr4c

Re: KX3 internal battery charger

In reply to this post by John Fritze

Neither. It has been listed as a NiMH only charger.

...bill nr4c

Sent from my Verizon Wireless Droid

-----Original message-----
From: John Fritze <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Sat, Jun 30, 2012 14:33:59 GMT+00:00
Subject: [Elecraft] KX3 internal battery charger

I know the internal battery charger for the KX3 is still being finalized,
but my question is: will it be able to charge differnt types of batteries
like lithium or just nicad?
K2QY
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JP O'Connor

Re: KX3 internal battery charger

In reply to this post by John Fritze

Wayne has stated that the KXBC3 internal charger will be for NiMh only and
will only be a timed charge, set to run an amount of time chosen by the
user, with a C/10 current rate of 200-250 mA. (He is considering a new
firmware mode to allow auto start of charging, though that is down the
priority list at this time.) The current battery holder design does not
allow access to the individual cell voltage, so one cannot safely design a
fast or smart internal charger at the present time. The current user manual
provides additional detail on the planned capabilities and operation.

Once the charger option ships, I plan to use a set of Eneloop XX (2500 mAh)
low self discharge NiMh batteries internally, and every few months (3? 6?)
pull them out for a test/refresh in a Maha MH-C9000 smart charger to make
sure the cells are all healthy. I plan to do this very rarely since it does
require opening the radio and generally is not needed if I don't abuse the
cells. The internal charger will handle day-to-day charge duties.
Externally, I use a 4S1P LiFePO4 (lithium iron phosphate) pack from EPBuddy
(very affordable compared to other vendors for the identical item - and a
much safer lithium chemistry than most others) made from A123 brand cells
for most portable operations (to minimize use of the Energizer Ultimate
Lithium batteries currently installed) and a small 3 A power supply for
fixed use.

73 de WF4Z
On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 10:33 AM, John Fritze <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I know the internal battery charger for the KX3 is still being finalized,
> but my question is: will it be able to charge differnt types of batteries
> like lithium or just nicad?
> K2QY
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

JP O'Connor

Re: KX3 internal battery charger

I went ahead and ordered the internal charger so that I have the clock and
so that I can keep a set of Eneloop XX batteries healthy inside the radio
for ultralight operations. I, too, am interested in solar charging of my
LiFePO4 packs.

If one feeds raw solar panel power to a battery, then things get "exciting"
to a degree, depending on what kind of battery is involved. I will defer to
those who have actual field experience as to when that is or is not
advisable.

BuddiPole now offers a solar charge controller for LiFePO4 battery packs.
It is $45.00 and charges the entire pack but is not a balancing charger. It
is small and compact for field use. One will want to periodically test and
balance their packs with a balancing charger.
http://www.buddipole.com/sobaco.html

An untested idea of mine (though I'm certainly not the first person to
think of it) is to feed a standard balancing charger with power from a
solar panel - as long as there is sufficient current and the voltage ranges
are compatible - or using a DC-to-DC device between the panel and
charger to maintain a steady voltage into the balancing charger. This is
certainly more moving parts and more weight. Again, I will defer to those
with actual field experience. Is this efficient? Is it practical? Has
anyone done this already and can report findings?

I suspect that for both the internal NiMh cells and the external 4SxP
LiFePO4 packs, a simple charger for field use and a smart charger for bench
use, will provide the best of both worlds.

Food for thought... and experimentation!

72/73 de JP WF4Z

On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 3:38 AM, Holger Schurig <[hidden email]>wrote:

> I also wondered about the NiMH stuff, now that LiFePO4 is affordable.
> Currently I'd like to go with an external LiFePO4 pack as well. So
> I'll have no clock in KX3 :-/
>
> One thing that stuck me (not that it is overly important for me ...):
> I read once that somebody wrote "LiPo isn't trail friendly, you can't
> charge them easily from a solar pad, lead-acid and NiMH are more
> friendly to the varying nature of sun charging. Now, LiFePO4 is a very
> different LiPo, does anybody know if that statement is true for them
> as well?
>

Edward R Cole

Re: KX3 internal battery charger

In reply to this post by John Fritze

Not exactly sure what "balancing" means but suspect this is the same
as equalizing charge. I have used solar charge controllers at remote
sites for two panels charging two batteries and do not recall any
equalizing function in them. The Buddipole appears to be a simple
current regulator. It may be adequate for your situation?

Solar regulators are widely available, just google them. Prices
about $150+ (from memory - may be higher now days).

73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
======================================
BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com
EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-QRT, 1296-?, 3400-?
DUBUS Magazine USA Rep [hidden email]
"Kits made by KL7UW" http://www.kl7uw.com/kits.htm
======================================
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JP O'Connor

Re: KX3 internal battery charger

Hi Ed,

Terminology can be a tricky thing! So can the specifics of different
battery types and how to charge them. You raise a number of excellent
questions.

In order to assist other readers who may not be as familiar with the topic,
and to assure I am being clear, I will go in to some detail.

--

Balance and Equalize

I think we are using these two terms synonymously.

Balancing chargers have access to each cell and during the charge cycle
will send different amounts of energy to each cell so that each cell is
properly "topped off" on its own. If a multi-cell pack is rapid charged,
there is the risk of undercharging some cells (an inconvenience) and
overcharging other cells (causing damage, and in some cases causing
catastrophic failure). I suspect this is exactly the same as equalizing. I
purchased my LiFePO4 packs and iCHarger 106B+ balancing charger from a
vendor (EP Buddy) in the radio control model hobby, so that is why I picked
up the "balance" term.

One must/should use a balancing/equalizing charger when rapid charging a
battery pack, especially when using extremely high charge rates. When slow
charging, the balancing/equalizing function, though beneficial, is not
required.

--

Charging LiFePO4 Batteries

When talking about charging batteries using this specific chemistry, one
must clearly state if they are talking about charging a pack that has no
internal electronics (for charge control and safety) or a pack that is set
up with cells and a control board inside. The latter style is often
configured as a drop in replacement for a traditional sealed lead acid
(SLA) battery. I did not make that distinction in my earlier post in this
thread, thus introducing the possibility of confusion.

Some LiFePO4 batteries are the exact same size and shape as SLA batteries
and are advertised as drop in replacements. These units have an internal
charge controller that handles the actual charging of the cells, often (but
not always) with balancing/equalizing capability included. Externally, the
battery is connected to whatever was charging the original SLA in the
application. Thus, an uninterruptible power supply, any application using a
standard SLA charger, or a solar power application may gain the benefits of
the LiFePO4 chemistry and still provide charging current/profile as if the
battery is an SLA. The controller inside the battery does the "translation"
to manage the actual LiFePO4 cells. In these types of applications, a
"standard" solar charge controller (which is designed for lead acid
batteries) may be used as is because the battery mimics an SLA.

Some LifePO4 battery packs are just made up of cells only, have no control
board, and must be charged by a system that is designed for this specific
chemistry. Just as with any other type of battery, slow charging may be
performed without balancing/equalizing and rapid charging does require
balancing/equalizing. This is the type of pack I am using. They are
supplied by EP Buddy, BuddiPople, and many others.

Note that a LiFePO4 pack of the same nominal capacity as an SLA battery
will have significantly more actual usable capacity within a single charge.
SLA batteries have dramatically reduced life if discharged more than 50% of
capacity and have significant voltage drop even at that point. LiFePO4
batteries on the other hand may be safely discharged much more (80% or
more?) without damage or diminished life, while retaining almost full
voltage until discharged about 80% or so. LiFePO4 also seem to have a
significantly longer "shelf life" and "service life" than SLA batteries.
Those who have experience with overall life of these types of batteries may
wish to comment with their findings.

--

Solar Charge Controllers

There is nothing magic about solar charge controllers. They are like any
other charger, except that they are designed to handle the wide voltage and
current range presented by a solar panel or array. Just as with any type of
charger, they must know the type of chemistry utilized by the battery so
that the proper charge profile is used. It is commonly known that lead
acid, NiMh, and Li-ion all use different charge profiles, so the proper
type of charger (or solar charge controller) must be used with each.

Just as with "standard" battery chargers, solar charge controllers are not
all alike. Choose the proper type for your battery chemistry or battery
pack profile. This isn't always made obvious to the prospective purchaser
since, historically, most general purpose consumer solar applications
involve SLA batteries.

--

For the KX3 I plan to use the following portable power options and charging
equipment/methods:

Internal lithium primary cells (8 AA size Energizer L92 Ultimate Lithium)
- Non-rechargeable - used only as emergency spares (Alkaline make very poor
spares in this application, although due to their common availability are
the ultimate spares of last resort.)

Internal NiMh low self discharge (LSD) cells (8 AA size Eneloop XX nominal
2500mAh)
- Normal charging (with batteries inside the radio) using low current timed
charge without balance/equalize - Elecraft KXBC3 fed from external DC power
supply
- Periodic testing with balance/equalize charging (with the batteries
outside the radio) - Maha MH-C9000

External LiFePO4 pack (4S1P 26650 size A123 nominal 2300 mAh)
- Field solar charging using low current controlled charge without
balance/equalize - BuddiPole Solar Battery Charge Controller
- Fixed location periodic testing with balance/equalize charging - iCharger
106B+ fed from external DC power supply

Another solar option for the LiFePO4 packs:
- Field solar charging (including possibility of medium to high current)
controlled charge with balance/equalize - larger capacity solar panel/array
feeding DC-to-DC regulator feeding iCharger 106B+

All battery packs, regardless of chemistry, benefit from a periodic
balance/equalize charge.

--

Hopefully this has clears up more questions than it generates!

72/73 de JP WF4Z

On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 1:47 PM, Edward R. Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Not exactly sure what "balancing" means but suspect this is the same
> as equalizing charge. I have used solar charge controllers at remote
> sites for two panels charging two batteries and do not recall any
> equalizing function in them. The Buddipole appears to be a simple
> current regulator. It may be adequate for your situation?
>
> Solar regulators are widely available, just google them. Prices
> about $150+ (from memory - may be higher now days).
>
>
> 73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
> ======================================
> BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com
> EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-QRT, 1296-?, 3400-?
> DUBUS Magazine USA Rep [hidden email]
> "Kits made by KL7UW" http://www.kl7uw.com/kits.htm
> ======================================
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

antivirus

Re: KX3 internal battery charger

This post was updated on .

I use my Kx3 with a external small LiFePo4 battery.. http://amd.co.at/anti/index2.php?Accus/small6Ah/

12.8 Volt , 6,6 Ah ( 2*4 / 2300 mAh A123 CELLS ) with BMS Inside...( No ext Balancer needed )
Size 112*69*55mm
740 gramms

I charge it with some of my Foltable Solar Module..
62 or 74 Watt Triple Junction Solarmodule http://amd.co.at/anti/index2.php?solar/Sistech74watt_tripleJunction/

or a small 30 Watt Solarmodule
http://amd.co.at/anti/index2.php?solar/Sunload_62Watt_incl_Powertank/

All this run with a small MPPT 10 Amp Solarregulator for LiFePo4 Batterys .
Solar in -> min 8 Volt- max 60 Volt (With in Build in Dc Step UP to charge 14.8 Volt to LiFePo4 )

Small, nice and i like it all

Regards..

antivirus

Re: KX3 internal battery charger

This post was updated on .

For longer Outdoor times i use my bigger LiFePo4 battery ( with BMS inside, no balancer needet )

12.8 Volt / 17 Ah - I charge he a with some of my Solarmodules...

http://amd.co.at/anti/index2.php?Accus/

and a smaller

12.8 Volt / 10 Ah

http://amd.co.at/anti/index2.php?Accus/12v10Ah/

This batteries run very nice with my Kx3 / ft 817 / ic 7000 / ft 897

regards & 73