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LED Lamps and HF RFI?

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Edward A. Dauer

LED Lamps and HF RFI?

Had an electrician at the operating QTH today to discuss replacing the
recessed ³can² lighting throughout the house. He suggested replacing the
incandescent cans (now 65 watts per bulb) with LED lamps (same lumens with
10-13 watts per bulb). I have looked at the Internet on the question of
RFI from LED bulbs and see wildly inconsistent reports. It is the case
that HF radios like the K3 have LEDs in their panels; but I would be
installing as many as 60 LED fixtures running at 10-13 watts each. My
caution comes from my novice days in the 50s when a single fluorescent
lamp put my hamming out of business - things were quiet when the only
light source was the filament of a 6146 and the dial lamps on the HQ-100.
I know that LEDs aren¹t at all the same; but I don¹t want to relamp the
house if it puts me off the air. And if they (or their power supplies) do
generate RFI in the HF bands, would the K3¹s NR get rid of it? Anyone
have any good data on this?

Tnx,

Ted, KN1CBR

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: LED Lamps and HF RFI?

I just replaced a couple old 65W equivalent CFL floods in 6" cans
located in a bathroom with retrofit LEDs and have not noticed any
increase in noise. The retrofit LEDs have an adapter that screws
in in place of the incandescent/CFL bulb. The replacement unit
simply snaps in place of the old trim ring and plugs into the
adapter.

The units I used were Utilitech from the local Lowes. I did not
use replacement power supplies and rewire the fixtures. If needed
I can go back to the CFL or conventional incandescent floods just
by unscrewing the adapter, screwing in CFLs and replacing the trim
ring.

The new fixtures are significantly brighter than the 10 year old
CFL bulbs. I'm planning to replace another half dozen mixed CFL
and incandescent floods with the LED retrofits over the next few
months.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2015-05-11 10:13 PM, Dauer, Edward wrote:

> Had an electrician at the operating QTH today to discuss replacing the
> recessed ³can² lighting throughout the house. He suggested replacing the
> incandescent cans (now 65 watts per bulb) with LED lamps (same lumens with
> 10-13 watts per bulb). I have looked at the Internet on the question of
> RFI from LED bulbs and see wildly inconsistent reports. It is the case
> that HF radios like the K3 have LEDs in their panels; but I would be
> installing as many as 60 LED fixtures running at 10-13 watts each. My
> caution comes from my novice days in the 50s when a single fluorescent
> lamp put my hamming out of business - things were quiet when the only
> light source was the filament of a 6146 and the dial lamps on the HQ-100.
> I know that LEDs aren¹t at all the same; but I don¹t want to relamp the
> house if it puts me off the air. And if they (or their power supplies) do
> generate RFI in the HF bands, would the K3¹s NR get rid of it? Anyone
> have any good data on this?
>
> Tnx,
>
> Ted, KN1CBR
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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David Bunte

Re: LED Lamps and HF RFI?

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

Ted -

I have a LOT of CFL in my house, but have been leery about LED bulbs,
because of concerns about RFI. about 3 weeks ago I saw a single BR30 size
LED bulk on a "bargain" table at the supermarket. (I was looking for
cookies). It was only $3.00 so I gave it a try. I put it just outside my
shack, so it was easy to turn it on and off while listening for noise. I
checked 160 - 10 meters and detected NO change in my K3. A few days ago I
found two-part of similar bulbs under the GE name. I put them in the next
nearest can lights, and can hear no increase in noise between the on or off
positions. That may not be very scientific, but I am happy.

Next I want to see how well they behave with a dimmer.

Dave - K9FN
On May 11, 2015 10:14 PM, "Dauer, Edward" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Craig Smith

Re: LED Lamps and HF RFI?

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

You are wise, Ted, to be cautious about this.

As you implied, it is not the LEDs themselves but how they are driven.

LEDs are current driven devices and, for a given intensity, are typically driven by a constant current source. In the case of a panel LED in a K3 or whatever it is easy to do this by just using a series dropping resistor as an analog current source and not worrying about the lost power in the resistor. This approach will be quiet in terms of RFI.

In home lighting applications, the currents are higher as are the desires for high efficiency and minimum power loss. So a switching regulator type of current source is employed, either on a lamp-by-lamp basis or be connecting several lamps in series with one current source. The switch mode current source can indeed be noisy. Even though in theory it could be made fairly quiet by means of good layout, control over wave shaping, extensive filtering, and high quality compliance testing, all of that typically does not happen in a cost-driven application such as home lighting.

You asked for people with good data. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them. I'm not even sure if good data exits on lighting RFI in a real-world applications. Even if a manufacturer characterizes the EMI performance in a data sheet, things are sometimes cost reduced later in manufacturing (less filtering) and can also be compromised by improper installation and grounding by a contractor.

Conceptually, I'm a big fan of LED lighting and have several types in various places in the house. But back when I was active on the air I made sure that I could turn them all OFF easily on contest weekends, etc.

The bottom line is that nothing is quieter than incandescent. I wish that that wasn't the case as the energy savings with LED are significant. Perhaps in 10 years it won't be a concern. But right now I would be cautious and have a "plan B" for lighting when operating.

73 Craig AC0DS

On 11, May2015, at 8:13 PM, Dauer, Edward wrote:

David Gilbert

Re: LED Lamps and HF RFI?

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

LEDs are low voltage DC current driven devices, and those in the K3 are
easily driven from the internal supplies. LED bulbs used in residential
lighting each have a power supply in their base that has to efficiently
drop the 120 VAC source down to low voltage DC current, and that pretty
much requires some sort of chopped waveform. The potential of RF hash
is certainly there, and I've heard reports of such behavior in early
versions of the product, but I have roughly 40 LED bulbs of various
sorts (all Utilitech store brand from Lowes) and I've been able to
discern any additional background noise on my K3 as a result. I have
three of them overhead in my shack and turning them on/off yields no
noticeable change on any band.

That being said, I don't think there is any hard and fast rule for what
you will get from any particular brand. I've never seen any relevant
specs on any LED bulbs and I doubt there ever will be. If I was really
worried about it and unwilling to simply try one, I'd suggest going with
a European brand like Siemens or Philips/Sylvania/Osram simply because
Europe seems to be more sensitive to such issues compared with the U.S.
or Asia. In my opinion, though, the best plan would be to buy bulbs
from someplace with a friendly return policy (which is why I bought them
from Lowes) and take them back if they caused problems.

Dave AB7E

On 5/11/2015 7:13 PM, Dauer, Edward wrote:

alsopb

Re: LED Lamps and HF RFI?

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

How far are your antennas from the bulb?

For a while I experimented with attic antennas. I heard junk from the
washing machine, treadmill and lots of other unidentifiable sources.
Using outdoor coax fed antennas 65' or more away received none of them.

One guy put an LED bulb in his garage. It drove the garage door opener
nuts.

73 de Brian/K3KO
On 5/12/2015 2:39 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>
> I just replaced a couple old 65W equivalent CFL floods in 6" cans
> located in a bathroom with retrofit LEDs and have not noticed any
> increase in noise. The retrofit LEDs have an adapter that screws
> in in place of the incandescent/CFL bulb. The replacement unit
> simply snaps in place of the old trim ring and plugs into the
> adapter.
>
> The units I used were Utilitech from the local Lowes. I did not
> use replacement power supplies and rewire the fixtures. If needed
> I can go back to the CFL or conventional incandescent floods just
> by unscrewing the adapter, screwing in CFLs and replacing the trim
> ring.
>
> The new fixtures are significantly brighter than the 10 year old
> CFL bulbs. I'm planning to replace another half dozen mixed CFL
> and incandescent floods with the LED retrofits over the next few
> months.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>
> On 2015-05-11 10:13 PM, Dauer, Edward wrote:
>> Had an electrician at the operating QTH today to discuss replacing the
>> recessed ³can² lighting throughout the house. He suggested replacing
>> the
>> incandescent cans (now 65 watts per bulb) with LED lamps (same lumens
>> with
>> 10-13 watts per bulb). I have looked at the Internet on the question of
>> RFI from LED bulbs and see wildly inconsistent reports. It is the case
>> that HF radios like the K3 have LEDs in their panels; but I would be
>> installing as many as 60 LED fixtures running at 10-13 watts each. My
>> caution comes from my novice days in the 50s when a single fluorescent
>> lamp put my hamming out of business - things were quiet when the only
>> light source was the filament of a 6146 and the dial lamps on the
>> HQ-100.
>> I know that LEDs aren¹t at all the same; but I don¹t want to relamp the
>> house if it puts me off the air. And if they (or their power
>> supplies) do
>> generate RFI in the HF bands, would the K3¹s NR get rid of it? Anyone
>> have any good data on this?
>>
>> Tnx,
>>
>> Ted, KN1CBR
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: LED Lamps and HF RFI?

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

> How far are your antennas from the bulb?

25 to 45 feet high and no more than 30 feet horizontally from the
"bulbs". The antennas are close enough that I hear the occasional
birdies from my router and Ethernet cards in some of the shack
computers.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2015-05-11 11:27 PM, brian wrote:
> How far are your antennas from the bulb?
>
> For a while I experimented with attic antennas. I heard junk from the
> washing machine, treadmill and lots of other unidentifiable sources.
> Using outdoor antennas 65' or more away received none of them.
>
> 73 de Brian/K3KO
>
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Charlie T, K3ICH

Re: LED Lamps and HF RFI?

In reply to this post by Craig Smith

I have only a couple incandescent lamps and a few CFL's left in the whole
house. All the rest are various manufacturer's LED bulbs. Most are bulb
replacements with a medium screw in base, but a few are specialized "shop
light" fixtures or ceiling lights. To my knowledge, I have no RFI from any
of them. I hear no difference on any band when any of the lights are
switched on or off. I DO have a couple on dimmers which make some noise,
but that's the dimmer, not the LED making the noise.

73, Charlie k3ICH

----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Smith" <[hidden email]>
To: "Dauer, Edward" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2015 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LED Lamps and HF RFI?

You are wise, Ted, to be cautious about this.

As you implied, it is not the LEDs themselves but how they are driven.

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Brian Hunt

Re: LED Lamps and HF RFI?

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

I have a dozen LED lights around the house from off the shelf at Costco. When I brought the first batch home, I fired them and sniffed them with a 2m HT and a Grundig SWL portable. I found no RFI even a foot from the bulbs.

Look at the contractor's design. If each bulb has its own AC-DC converter it's likely OK. If there's a common supply serving several bulbs then the distribution wires may act like an antenna and cause problems. You could also ask the contractor to loan you a sample and run your own tests.

73,
Brian, K0DTJ
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Fred Townsend-2

Re: LED Lamps and HF RFI?

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

I am a RFI engineer so naturally I test everything I can get my hands on. I have been pleasantly surprised at how good the LEDs are. I have seen one infant mortality for which the manufacturer replaced after a 3 week wait. With CFLs I have seen some noise. One was a 150W equivalent. I had to look a long time to find that large a CFL and when I did it was a no name company. It pretty much wiped out all HF bands so I was forced to go to a 100 watt equivalent.

Everything is made in China now days but the usual caveats apply. By American
brands. They will backup their products.

Fred, AE6QL

-----Original Message-----

>From: "Dauer, Edward" <[hidden email]>
>Sent: May 11, 2015 7:13 PM
>To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>Subject: [Elecraft] LED Lamps and HF RFI?
>
>Had an electrician at the operating QTH today to discuss replacing the
>recessed ³can² lighting throughout the house. He suggested replacing the
>incandescent cans (now 65 watts per bulb) with LED lamps (same lumens with
>10-13 watts per bulb). I have looked at the Internet on the question of
>RFI from LED bulbs and see wildly inconsistent reports. It is the case
>that HF radios like the K3 have LEDs in their panels; but I would be
>installing as many as 60 LED fixtures running at 10-13 watts each. My
>caution comes from my novice days in the 50s when a single fluorescent
>lamp put my hamming out of business - things were quiet when the only
>light source was the filament of a 6146 and the dial lamps on the HQ-100.
>I know that LEDs aren¹t at all the same; but I don¹t want to relamp the
>house if it puts me off the air. And if they (or their power supplies) do
>generate RFI in the HF bands, would the K3¹s NR get rid of it? Anyone
>have any good data on this?
>
>Tnx,
>
>Ted, KN1CBR
>
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>Message delivered to [hidden email]

W4GRJ

Re: LED Lamps and HF RFI?

Recently replaced most of the lights in the house with led's, over 100 lights.
No issues with RFI.
Jack
W4GRJ

On May 12, 2015, at 4:09 AM, Fred Townsend <[hidden email]> wrote:

I am a RFI engineer so naturally I test everything I can get my hands on. I have been pleasantly surprised at how good the LEDs are. I have seen one infant mortality for which the manufacturer replaced after a 3 week wait. With CFLs I have seen some noise. One was a 150W equivalent. I had to look a long time to find that large a CFL and when I did it was a no name company. It pretty much wiped out all HF bands so I was forced to go to a 100 watt equivalent.

Everything is made in China now days but the usual caveats apply. By American
brands. They will backup their products.

Fred, AE6QL

-----Original Message-----

> From: "Dauer, Edward" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: May 11, 2015 7:13 PM
> To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Elecraft] LED Lamps and HF RFI?
>
> Had an electrician at the operating QTH today to discuss replacing the
> recessed ³can² lighting throughout the house. He suggested replacing the
> incandescent cans (now 65 watts per bulb) with LED lamps (same lumens with
> 10-13 watts per bulb). I have looked at the Internet on the question of
> RFI from LED bulbs and see wildly inconsistent reports. It is the case
> that HF radios like the K3 have LEDs in their panels; but I would be
> installing as many as 60 LED fixtures running at 10-13 watts each. My
> caution comes from my novice days in the 50s when a single fluorescent
> lamp put my hamming out of business - things were quiet when the only
> light source was the filament of a 6146 and the dial lamps on the HQ-100.
> I know that LEDs aren¹t at all the same; but I don¹t want to relamp the
> house if it puts me off the air. And if they (or their power supplies) do
> generate RFI in the HF bands, would the K3¹s NR get rid of it? Anyone
> have any good data on this?
>
> Tnx,
>
> Ted, KN1CBR
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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ke9uw

Re: LED Lamps and HF RFI?

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

We just put a dozen 4 inch Sylvania LED can light inserts from LOWES into the kitchen and have no noise from them. I don't find that 120vac LED replacement bulbs have any downside other than price so far. And I like the whiter light (3000K).

Chuck, KE9UW

Edward R Cole

Re: LED Lamps and HF RFI?

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

One more datum for this "survey":

I bought one 60w equivalent LED bulb for replacement in my ceiling
fixture in the room which serves as my ham shack. That places it
about 5-feet from my radios. I bought it from Home Depot and is a
CREE LED listing 800 lumens at 5000K and uses 9w. It has the
built-in base PS and screws into a standard light fixture. CREE
lists life for 22.8 years at 3-hour/day usage and has limited
warranty for ten years. Cost $11.98

I am seeing NO RFI from it on HF to mw frequencies. I will start
replacing several of our cheap GE incandescent bulbs with the CREE;
average life for the 50cent GE's is 30-days. Break even is 24-months
on cost without taking into consideration energy savings.

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
[hidden email]

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Jim Brown-10

Re: LED Lamps and HF RFI?

On Tue,5/12/2015 9:06 AM, Edward R Cole wrote:
> That places it about 5-feet from my radios.

Repeat after me -- proximity to radios DOES NOT MATTER.
What matters is proximity to ANTENNAS!
What matters is proximity to ANTENNAS!
What matters is proximity to ANTENNAS!
What matters is proximity to ANTENNAS!
What matters is proximity to ANTENNAS!
What matters is proximity to ANTENNAS!
What matters is proximity to ANTENNAS!

73, Jim K9YC
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Phil Kane-2

Re: LED Lamps and HF RFI?

In reply to this post by David Bunte

On 5/11/2015 7:41 PM, David Bunte wrote:

> Next I want to see how well they behave with a dimmer.

Mae sure the LED is "dimmable". Some are, some aren't.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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David Gilbert

Re: LED Lamps and HF RFI?

Even those that are spec'd as "dimmable" sometimes have disclaimers
saying that they may not be compatible with all dimmers. I've seen
"dimmable" bulbs sit there and blink when used with some dimmers. In my
opinion, there is a need for the lighting industry to resolve this,
because right now there is no real guarantee of compatibility between
LED/CFL power supplies and dimmers ... and nobody has a clue whether
they will work together or not. At best, the power supplies in the
dimmable LEDs probably won't burn out when hammered by the chopped
waveform of a typical dimmer, but that doesn't mean they will smoothly
dim or won't turn into a strobe light.

73,
Dave AB7E

On 5/12/2015 5:03 PM, Phil Kane wrote:

> On 5/11/2015 7:41 PM, David Bunte wrote:
>
>> Next I want to see how well they behave with a dimmer.
> Mae sure the LED is "dimmable". Some are, some aren't.
>
> 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
> Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402
>
> >From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
> Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
> ______________________________________________________________
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>