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LED bulbs

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Charles Yahrling

LED bulbs

Why not go to home depot and get a few to try? A ham friend did just that
to replace CFLs and had good results. More light
from same watt rating with the LED bulbs. No RFI. Pretty cheap investment,
easy to experiment with, just screw out the old and in with the new. No
xformer required. No electrician required.

--
de AB1VL
NAQCC #6799

ab1vl.com
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Mike Reublin NF4L

Re: LED bulbs

I put 3 LED can lights in the shack, and there are 11 LED bulbs in the kitchen next door. No noise that I can attribute to them. I like the whiter, brighter light.

I do have a question about the claimed $ savings. The base of these things get fairly hot. How much is that heat costing?

73, Mike NF4L

> On May 12, 2015, at 8:20 AM, Charles Yahrling <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Why not go to home depot and get a few to try? A ham friend did just that
> to replace CFLs and had good results. More light
> from same watt rating with the LED bulbs. No RFI. Pretty cheap investment,
> easy to experiment with, just screw out the old and in with the new. No
> xformer required. No electrician required.
>
> --
> de AB1VL
> NAQCC #6799
>
> ab1vl.com
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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Jim Sheldon

Re: LED bulbs

In reply to this post by Charles Yahrling

The CFL bulbs get hotter, and the incandescents they both replace get an
awful lot hotter so I wouldn't worry much about the heat. The LED bulbs
I have -- 90 in all --- generate far less heat then the CFL's I replaced
them with. I can at least grab the base of the LED's after they have
been on for a while and not get burned. I can't say that for about 80
percent of the CFL's and in order to change an incandescent that's been
on I either had to use gloves or wait 5 minutes or so until it and the
fixture cooled off.

LED's are a current driven device so there WILL be some heat generated.
I've had many of the CFL's actually start smoking though so I don't
trust those as far as I can drop them (I CAN throw them pretty far) LOL.

Jim - W0EB

------ Original Message ------
From: "Mike Reublin NF4L" <[hidden email]>
To: "Elecraft List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 5/12/2015 7:33:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LED bulbs

>I put 3 LED can lights in the shack, and there are 11 LED bulbs in the
>kitchen next door. No noise that I can attribute to them. I like the
>whiter, brighter light.
>
>I do have a question about the claimed $ savings. The base of these
>things get fairly hot. How much is that heat costing?
>
>73, Mike NF4L
>
>
>> On May 12, 2015, at 8:20 AM, Charles Yahrling <[hidden email]>
>>wrote:
>>
>> Why not go to home depot and get a few to try? A ham friend did just
>>that
>> to replace CFLs and had good results. More light
>> from same watt rating with the LED bulbs. No RFI. Pretty cheap
>>investment,
>> easy to experiment with, just screw out the old and in with the new.
>>No
>> xformer required. No electrician required.
>>
>> --
>> de AB1VL
>> NAQCC #6799
>>
>> ab1vl.com
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
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Mike Reublin NF4L

Re: LED bulbs

Well, yeah. But that heat does cost something. I'm not in the least worried, I'm just curious if it's factored into the advertised savings.
73, Mike NF4L

> On May 12, 2015, at 8:41 AM, Jim Sheldon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The CFL bulbs get hotter, and the incandescents they both replace get an awful lot hotter so I wouldn't worry much about the heat. The LED bulbs I have -- 90 in all --- generate far less heat then the CFL's I replaced them with. I can at least grab the base of the LED's after they have been on for a while and not get burned. I can't say that for about 80 percent of the CFL's and in order to change an incandescent that's been on I either had to use gloves or wait 5 minutes or so until it and the fixture cooled off.
>
> LED's are a current driven device so there WILL be some heat generated. I've had many of the CFL's actually start smoking though so I don't trust those as far as I can drop them (I CAN throw them pretty far) LOL.
>
> Jim - W0EB
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Mike Reublin NF4L" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Elecraft List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: 5/12/2015 7:33:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LED bulbs
>
>> I put 3 LED can lights in the shack, and there are 11 LED bulbs in the kitchen next door. No noise that I can attribute to them. I like the whiter, brighter light.
>>
>> I do have a question about the claimed $ savings. The base of these things get fairly hot. How much is that heat costing?
>>
>> 73, Mike NF4L
>>
>>
>>> On May 12, 2015, at 8:20 AM, Charles Yahrling <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Why not go to home depot and get a few to try? A ham friend did just that
>>> to replace CFLs and had good results. More light
>>> from same watt rating with the LED bulbs. No RFI. Pretty cheap investment,
>>> easy to experiment with, just screw out the old and in with the new. No
>>> xformer required. No electrician required.
>>>
>>> --
>>> de AB1VL
>>> NAQCC #6799
>>>
>>> ab1vl.com
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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Ross Primrose

Re: LED bulbs

It would have to be. The savings are based on power consumption, and
that heat is part of the power consumed....

73, Ross N4RP

On 5/12/2015 8:53 AM, Mike Reublin NF4L wrote:

> Well, yeah. But that heat does cost something. I'm not in the least worried, I'm just curious if it's factored into the advertised savings.
> 73, Mike NF4L
>
>
>> On May 12, 2015, at 8:41 AM, Jim Sheldon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> The CFL bulbs get hotter, and the incandescents they both replace get an awful lot hotter so I wouldn't worry much about the heat. The LED bulbs I have -- 90 in all --- generate far less heat then the CFL's I replaced them with. I can at least grab the base of the LED's after they have been on for a while and not get burned. I can't say that for about 80 percent of the CFL's and in order to change an incandescent that's been on I either had to use gloves or wait 5 minutes or so until it and the fixture cooled off.
>>
>> LED's are a current driven device so there WILL be some heat generated. I've had many of the CFL's actually start smoking though so I don't trust those as far as I can drop them (I CAN throw them pretty far) LOL.
>>
>> Jim - W0EB
>>
>> ------ Original Message ------
>> From: "Mike Reublin NF4L" <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Elecraft List" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: 5/12/2015 7:33:36 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LED bulbs
>>
>>> I put 3 LED can lights in the shack, and there are 11 LED bulbs in the kitchen next door. No noise that I can attribute to them. I like the whiter, brighter light.
>>>
>>> I do have a question about the claimed $ savings. The base of these things get fairly hot. How much is that heat costing?
>>>
>>> 73, Mike NF4L
>>>
>>>
>>>> On May 12, 2015, at 8:20 AM, Charles Yahrling <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Why not go to home depot and get a few to try? A ham friend did just that
>>>> to replace CFLs and had good results. More light
>>>> from same watt rating with the LED bulbs. No RFI. Pretty cheap investment,
>>>> easy to experiment with, just screw out the old and in with the new. No
>>>> xformer required. No electrician required.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> de AB1VL
>>>> NAQCC #6799
>>>>
>>>> ab1vl.com
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>> ______________________________________________________________
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--
FCC Section 97.313(a) “At all times, an amateur station must use the minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications.”

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MarcV

Re: LED bulbs

In reply to this post by Mike Reublin NF4L

I've relamped both of our homes with a variety of brands of LED bulbs. Some are very noisy, some are reasonably quiet. I couldn't guess ahead of time which would be noisy, so I bought a cheap transistor radio (Sony ICF=SS10MK2) to watch for the worst offenders. After installation I just walk around with the radio held near the bulbs. They all make noise but some are horrid.

However, the only ones I can't live with are the undercounter LED strips powered by WAC 24 volt power packs. Not only are those things, the power packs, unusually expensive, I am surprised that the FCC allows their sale in the U.S. They obliterate the 160 and 80 meter bands on my KX3 and K3. Even after applying toroids to both the AC source side and the DC output side, they still manage to make both the strip lights and the entire house wiring system into giant RFI radiators. We have them in the laundry room and kitchen and there's no low band operating possible while those miserable things are switched on.

I will say that 99 out of 100 LED bulbs emit less RFI than their CFL counterparts. And I've got LEDs here from Lowes, Home Depot, Amazon.com and some directly from Banggood's China warehouses.

As to heat loss, the higher lumen bulbs do get 'way to hot to handle without a cool down period. I too wonder just how efficient they can be. But those with wattage requirements below 11 watts don't get so blazingly hot. The 45 watters get so hot that I'm concerned they are a fire hazard. None of them have anything resembling a UL label and they were all direct China imports.

I seem to be rambling but wanted to share my experience. I will say it's wonderful not to be replacing burned out bulbs, a former weekly experience.

I don't think I've saved much money, though. The reduced electrical demand won't justify the high cost of the modern day wonder -- LED lighting.
--
Marc W8SDG

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Mike Reublin NF4L

Re: LED bulbs

In reply to this post by Ross Primrose

I hope so. I just keep thinking.....There's lies, damn lies, statistics, and then advertising....

73, Mike NF4L

> On May 12, 2015, at 8:56 AM, Ross Primrose <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> It would have to be. The savings are based on power consumption, and that heat is part of the power consumed....
>
> 73, Ross N4RP
>
> On 5/12/2015 8:53 AM, Mike Reublin NF4L wrote:
>> Well, yeah. But that heat does cost something. I'm not in the least worried, I'm just curious if it's factored into the advertised savings.
>> 73, Mike NF4L
>>
>>
>>> On May 12, 2015, at 8:41 AM, Jim Sheldon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> The CFL bulbs get hotter, and the incandescents they both replace get an awful lot hotter so I wouldn't worry much about the heat. The LED bulbs I have -- 90 in all --- generate far less heat then the CFL's I replaced them with. I can at least grab the base of the LED's after they have been on for a while and not get burned. I can't say that for about 80 percent of the CFL's and in order to change an incandescent that's been on I either had to use gloves or wait 5 minutes or so until it and the fixture cooled off.
>>>
>>> LED's are a current driven device so there WILL be some heat generated. I've had many of the CFL's actually start smoking though so I don't trust those as far as I can drop them (I CAN throw them pretty far) LOL.
>>>
>>> Jim - W0EB
>>>
>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>> From: "Mike Reublin NF4L" <[hidden email]>
>>> To: "Elecraft List" <[hidden email]>
>>> Sent: 5/12/2015 7:33:36 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LED bulbs
>>>
>>>> I put 3 LED can lights in the shack, and there are 11 LED bulbs in the kitchen next door. No noise that I can attribute to them. I like the whiter, brighter light.
>>>>
>>>> I do have a question about the claimed $ savings. The base of these things get fairly hot. How much is that heat costing?
>>>>
>>>> 73, Mike NF4L
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On May 12, 2015, at 8:20 AM, Charles Yahrling <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Why not go to home depot and get a few to try? A ham friend did just that
>>>>> to replace CFLs and had good results. More light
>>>>> from same watt rating with the LED bulbs. No RFI. Pretty cheap investment,
>>>>> easy to experiment with, just screw out the old and in with the new. No
>>>>> xformer required. No electrician required.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> de AB1VL
>>>>> NAQCC #6799
>>>>>
>>>>> ab1vl.com
>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>> ______________________________________________________________
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>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>
> --
> FCC Section 97.313(a) “At all times, an amateur station must use the minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications.”
>

wayne burdick

Re: LED bulbs

Administrator

In reply to this post by MarcV

LED bulbs are optical QRP, so not O.T. :)

IKEA now has 60-W bulbs for about $4.50 each. This is an amazing price, considering that Home Depot was leading the charge and is still at nearly $7. We're using almost all LED at our house now, except for the candelabra type, and even those are rapidly coming down.

I also heard from a couple of local retailers that they're replacing their industrial-size florescent ceiling tubes with LEDs. He pointed out the difference in color: The LEDs were a pleasant pure white, while the fluorescents were the usual "cold" variation (e.g., grayish blueish).

I don't think LED bulbs have a downside, RFI or otherwise. The most important thing is their reduction in energy consumption -- about 1/6th that of incandescents. If everyone swapped in LEDs over the next few years, we'd probably eliminate the need for any new power plants.

Even if we all started using KPA500s.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On May 12, 2015, at 6:18 AM, Marc Veeneman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've relamped both of our homes with a variety of brands of LED bulbs. Some are very noisy, some are reasonably quiet. I couldn't guess ahead of time which would be noisy, so I bought a cheap transistor radio (Sony ICF=SS10MK2) to watch for the worst offenders. After installation I just walk around with the radio held near the bulbs. They all make noise but some are horrid.
>
> However, the only ones I can't live with are the undercounter LED strips powered by WAC 24 volt power packs. Not only are those things, the power packs, unusually expensive, I am surprised that the FCC allows their sale in the U.S. They obliterate the 160 and 80 meter bands on my KX3 and K3. Even after applying toroids to both the AC source side and the DC output side, they still manage to make both the strip lights and the entire house wiring system into giant RFI radiators. We have them in the laundry room and kitchen and there's no low band operating possible while those miserable things are switched on.
>
> I will say that 99 out of 100 LED bulbs emit less RFI than their CFL counterparts. And I've got LEDs here from Lowes, Home Depot, Amazon.com and some directly from Banggood's China warehouses.
>
> As to heat loss, the higher lumen bulbs do get 'way to hot to handle without a cool down period. I too wonder just how efficient they can be. But those with wattage requirements below 11 watts don't get so blazingly hot. The 45 watters get so hot that I'm concerned they are a fire hazard. None of them have anything resembling a UL label and they were all direct China imports.
>
> I seem to be rambling but wanted to share my experience. I will say it's wonderful not to be replacing burned out bulbs, a former weekly experience.
>
> I don't think I've saved much money, though. The reduced electrical demand won't justify the high cost of the modern day wonder -- LED lighting.
> --
> Marc W8SDG
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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Charlie T, K3ICH

Re: LED bulbs

In reply to this post by Mike Reublin NF4L

You'll find that the higher color temperature bulbs (bluer, closer to
daylight, 5000 to 6500K) are a ted more efficient as to Lumens per watts
than the lower temperature "soft/warm" light in the 2700 to 3000K. Also,
the ones (Cree for example) that have better color rendition are even a
little less efficient. However, I much prefer the lower temps around the
house. My shop light is a 38 watt, 4000K which is OK for it's use. It
looks exactly like a old twin 40 watt fluorescent fixture but noticeably
brighter at 2800 Lumens, and was on sale at Costco for $35.95. I won't
live long enough for it to wear out.

It's a bit eerie to touch my desk lamp with a 3½ watt LED in it and find
that it is at room temperature. The old 40 watt lamp would burn your
fingers!

Suffice it to say, LED's ARE getting cheaper and better. It's easy to find
them on sale for under four bucks.

I have a feeling this thread is about to be executed (??)

73, Charlie k3ICH

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Reublin NF4L" <[hidden email]>
To: "Elecraft List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2015 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LED bulbs

>I put 3 LED can lights in the shack, and there are 11 LED bulbs in the
>kitchen next door. No noise that I can attribute to them. I like the
>whiter, brighter light.
>
> I do have a question about the claimed $ savings. The base of these things
> get fairly hot. How much is that heat costing?
>
> 73, Mike NF4L
>
>
>> On May 12, 2015, at 8:20 AM, Charles Yahrling <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Why not go to home depot and get a few to try? A ham friend did just that
>> to replace CFLs and had good results. More light
>> from same watt rating with the LED bulbs. No RFI. Pretty cheap
>> investment,
>> easy to experiment with, just screw out the old and in with the new. No
>> xformer required. No electrician required.
>>
>> --
>> de AB1VL
>> NAQCC #6799
>>
>> ab1vl.com
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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MarcV

Re: LED bulbs

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Not everyone can turn a QRP LED discussion into a KPA500 pitch with power plants as the bridge.
--
Marc

> On May 12, 2015, at 10:33 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> LED bulbs are optical QRP, so not O.T. :)
>
> If everyone swapped in LEDs over the next few years, we'd probably eliminate the need for any new power plants.
>
> Even if we all started using KPA500s.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>> On May 12, 2015, at 6:18 AM, Marc Veeneman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I don't think I've saved much money, though. The reduced electrical demand won't justify the high cost of the modern day wonder -- LED lighting.
>> --
>> Marc W8SDG
>>
>> _

Chip Stratton

Re: LED bulbs

Incandescent bulbs get rid of most of their waste heat as IR radiation.
CFLs do so too, but since they are more efficient there is a bit less IR to
radiate. LEDs radiate very little waste heat, but since they are still not
perfectly efficient, their waste heat has to go somewhere, and that
somewhere is conduction into the base of the bulb and/or a heat sink near
the base. So yes LED replacement bulb bases can get pretty hot, but that is
because that is the direction the waste heat has to go. An LED which
converted all of its energy into visible light would create about 683
lumens/watt, but typical LED light bulb efficiencies are usually around 60
lumens/watt (depending on how hard they are driven), so still not even 15%
efficient at converting power into light. Compare that to an incandescent
bulb, which offers about 10 lumens/watt.

Chip
AE5KA
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Jim Brown-10

Re: LED bulbs

In reply to this post by MarcV

On Tue,5/12/2015 6:18 AM, Marc Veeneman wrote:
> owever, the only ones I can't live with are the undercounter LED strips powered by WAC 24 volt power packs. Not only are those things, the power packs, unusually expensive, I am surprised that the FCC allows their sale in the U.S. They obliterate the 160 and 80 meter bands on my KX3 and K3.

You should not be surprised about the FCC's inaction -- their
enforcement division was gutted in the name of small government, and
what was left of it is going away in the name of a balanced budget.

You've correctly zeroed in on the noisy component -- it's the PSU. You
should return them and the lights that use them as defective and demand
your money back. If you can't or don't want to do that, throw those
noisy PSUs in the trash and replace them with a linear supply.

Check out the LED lighting from this vendor. I'm using their strips to
light my hamshack, running five strips in series to light my ham shack.
The combination draws 1.2A from my 12V system. Their strip lights have
built-in rectifiers ahd regulators that allow them to run from any AC or
DC source between 10 and 24 V. They have been exhibiting at Pacificon
and the Visalia DX Convention for several years.

https://www.wiredco.com/LED_Flashing_Lighting_s/1847.htm

There are several good ways to power these lights. I've trashed all the
new switching power supplies that come with new electronics and replaced
them with old linear wall warts that came with much older stuff. And I
buy more of them at hamfests and second hand stores, typically for a
buck apiece. Another trick is to use a smaller linear supply to trickle
charge a battery of the voltage that the equipment needs. I'm doing that
for stuff around my living room entertainment system, and for the cable
modem and WiFi router. In addition to killing the noise, it functions as
an inexpensive UPS.

73, Jim K9YC

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David Olean

Re: LED bulbs

In reply to this post by MarcV

I am using my KPA500 while running on batteries. Sounds weird but true. The
KPA500 is quite efficient although it is always drawing some current even
when turned off. I can see that slight drain on my DC ammeters. In receive,
there is little current drain. Of course, when I start sending CW I see the
ammeter go up to about 70 amps. (Not a peak reading ammeter either!). My
battery bank is a pair of 275 AH solar AGM type 12 volt batteries. The
charging circuit is a couple of 220 watt solar panels. I use a pure sine
wave inverter that is pretty noiseless. (Xantrex Pro Sine 1800 W) During
the day when the Sun is out, the batteries charge up during the receive
cycle, so I don't deplete the batteries at all. At night I can go for many
hours and have never gotten close to even a 50% discharge. In short, the
K3/KPA500 combo is very efficient. I could not do that with my big tube
amps! The filaments and blowers would kill the batteries before I even got
the HV turned on!

Dave K1WHS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Veeneman" <[hidden email]>
To: "Wayne Burdick" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Elecraft List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2015 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LED bulbs

> Not everyone can turn a QRP LED discussion into a KPA500 pitch with power
> plants as the bridge.
> --
> Marc
>
>> On May 12, 2015, at 10:33 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> LED bulbs are optical QRP, so not O.T. :)
>>
>> If everyone swapped in LEDs over the next few years, we'd probably
>> eliminate the need for any new power plants.
>>
>> Even if we all started using KPA500s.
>>
>> 73,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>>
>>
>>> On May 12, 2015, at 6:18 AM, Marc Veeneman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> I don't think I've saved much money, though. The reduced electrical
>>> demand won't justify the high cost of the modern day wonder -- LED
>>> lighting.
>>> --
>>> Marc W8SDG
>>>
>>> _
> ______________________________________________________________
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David Gilbert

Re: LED bulbs

In reply to this post by Mike Reublin NF4L

Yes, I've also been surprised at how hot the bases get, but you have to
understand that everything is in that base ... the power supply and the
heat sink for the LED chip(s). The total energy expended is all that's
important, though, and on average the energy expended on a 60 watt
equivalent LED bulb is about 1/5 to 1/6 that of a comparable
incandescent bulb. Watts are watts, and you pay for watt-hours no
matter where it gets expended.

At my QTH, electricity costs about $0.11 per kilowatt-hour. A 60 watt
bulb (i.e., incandescent) running 4 hours per day 300 days per year
would eat up roughly $8 worth of electricity. Lowe's is currently
selling store brand 60 watt equivalent (800 lumens) LED bulbs for $2.48
and it is not difficult to find similar deals elsewhere. At ten watts
for the LED bulb, that works out to be less than five months payback on
a bulb that will probably last 10 to 15 years or more. You could pay up
to about $6.65 per bulb and still have a payback less than one year.
For some reason indoor LED flood lights (PAR30) are more expensive, but
even there the payback is less than two years.

Dave AB7E

On 5/12/2015 5:33 AM, Mike Reublin NF4L wrote:
> I put 3 LED can lights in the shack, and there are 11 LED bulbs in the kitchen next door. No noise that I can attribute to them. I like the whiter, brighter light.
>
> I do have a question about the claimed $ savings. The base of these things get fairly hot. How much is that heat costing?
>
> 73, Mike NF4L
>
>

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Tony Estep

Re: LED bulbs

On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 2:19 PM, David Gilbert <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> ...Watts are watts, and you pay for watt-hours no matter...

========
Would you say that watt you see is watt you get?

Tony KT0NY
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David Gilbert

Re: LED bulbs

In reply to this post by MarcV

For starters, you're kind of contradicting yourself there. Factor in
the cost of replacement incandescent bulbs and that alone justifies
their cost since 15 to 20 year lifetimes are not an unreasonable
expectation for LED bulbs in "normal" operation. In my experience, this
holds true even when compared against the less expensive CFL bulbs that
for me don't last much longer than incandescents.

But it's pretty easy to calculate the energy savings as well. Work up
your own numbers and I can pretty much guarantee that they will prove
your last statement dead wrong. If you get a payback greater than two
years you either did the math wrong or paid too much for your bulbs.

73,
Dave AB7E

On 5/12/2015 6:18 AM, Marc Veeneman wrote:
>
> I seem to be rambling but wanted to share my experience. I will say it's wonderful not to be replacing burned out bulbs, a former weekly experience.
>
> I don't think I've saved much money, though. The reduced electrical demand won't justify the high cost of the modern day wonder -- LED lighting.

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Fred Townsend-2

Re: LED bulbs

In reply to this post by Charles Yahrling

It's not that the switching PSUs are so noisy, they are, but that these LED strips are such good antennas! The regulating authorities, particularly the EU, are very sensitive about conducted powerline emissions but since the load side of the PSU is unspecified, there are no filtering requirements. Simply the PSUs radiate out the DC side. Adding a conducted filter line at the PSU output can reduce a lot of EMI. Whether that is enough is as you mention depends on how close the LEDs are to your antennas so no two will be alike.

There is another issue with many of the cheaper LED strips. The strips are rated for 12V while the LEDs are 3 volts (round numbers). This means that 9 volts must be dropped across a resistor (typically a 1/2 watt carbon film). This is throwing away 3/4 of the energy on the input side without figuring any LED efficiency. The better way of driving a LED is from a current source. Many LEDs can be driven from a single current source but this is a great deal more difficult (and consequently more expensive). This is a bit like the old series string Christmas tree lights which have a bad reputation for reliability. Because of cost and perceived reliability series string strips are the exception rather than the rule.

Conclusion: LED light strips with switchers can be very efficient and quiet but take some searching to identify. Investigate the technology before you buy and make sure anything you buy is returnable and test before you throw the package away.

73, Fred, AE6QL

-----Original Message-----

>From: Jim Brown <[hidden email]>
>Sent: May 12, 2015 9:26 AM
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LED bulbs
>
>On Tue,5/12/2015 6:18 AM, Marc Veeneman wrote:
>> owever, the only ones I can't live with are the undercounter LED strips powered by WAC 24 volt power packs. Not only are those things, the power packs, unusually expensive, I am surprised that the FCC allows their sale in the U.S. They obliterate the 160 and 80 meter bands on my KX3 and K3.
>
>You should not be surprised about the FCC's inaction -- their
>enforcement division was gutted in the name of small government, and
>what was left of it is going away in the name of a balanced budget.
>
>You've correctly zeroed in on the noisy component -- it's the PSU. You
>should return them and the lights that use them as defective and demand
>your money back. If you can't or don't want to do that, throw those
>noisy PSUs in the trash and replace them with a linear supply.
>
>Check out the LED lighting from this vendor. I'm using their strips to
>light my hamshack, running five strips in series to light my ham shack.
>The combination draws 1.2A from my 12V system. Their strip lights have
>built-in rectifiers ahd regulators that allow them to run from any AC or
>DC source between 10 and 24 V. They have been exhibiting at Pacificon
>and the Visalia DX Convention for several years.
>
>https://www.wiredco.com/LED_Flashing_Lighting_s/1847.htm
>
>There are several good ways to power these lights. I've trashed all the
>new switching power supplies that come with new electronics and replaced
>them with old linear wall warts that came with much older stuff. And I
>buy more of them at hamfests and second hand stores, typically for a
>buck apiece. Another trick is to use a smaller linear supply to trickle
>charge a battery of the voltage that the equipment needs. I'm doing that
>for stuff around my living room entertainment system, and for the cable
>modem and WiFi router. In addition to killing the noise, it functions as
>an inexpensive UPS.
>
>73, Jim K9YC
>
>
>
>
>
>
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>Message delivered to [hidden email]

MarcV

Re: LED bulbs

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

On May 12, 2015, at 3:39 PM, David Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> For starters, you're kind of contradicting yourself there.
> But it's pretty easy to calculate the energy savings as well. Work up your own numbers and I can pretty much guarantee that they will prove your last statement dead wrong. If you get a payback greater than two years you either did the math wrong or paid too much for your bulbs.
>

I paid too much. As an early adopter to LED I had all the bulbs changed before prices dropped below $12 each. Most of the scores of bulbs in both homes cost between $18 and $35 each. A few, the ones with cooling fans built into the bases, cost even more.

But I don't regret it. The irritation of "that bulb is out" and the trouble of 12 to 20 foot high ceilings pushed me to do it.

Heck, think of all the extra time for hamming since I never have to change those doggone bulbs, nor do I have to stock up anymore!
--
Marc W8SDG
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Fred Townsend-2

Re: LED bulbs

In reply to this post by Charles Yahrling

KillerWatt will PUNish you.

-----Original Message-----

>From: Tony Estep <[hidden email]>
>Sent: May 12, 2015 12:37 PM
>To: David Gilbert <[hidden email]>
>Cc: Elecraft <[hidden email]>
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LED bulbs
>
>On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 2:19 PM, David Gilbert <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>
>> ...Watts are watts, and you pay for watt-hours no matter...
>
>========
>Would you say that watt you see is watt you get?
>
>Tony KT0NY
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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Grant Youngman

Re: LED bulbs

In reply to this post by MarcV

The one downside I’ve found so far is that virtually all of them specify “not for use in enclosed luminaries”.

This means that if you have enclosed glass luminaries (like overhead fan lights, and many outdoor lamp enclosures, for example), you have to replace the luminary too. I presume that’s because of the high heat generated in the base of the LED lamp. Although, to be honest, a standard bulb gets pretty hot in those things, too.

Grant NQ5T
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